[Raid] Why BiS DPS builds often are a bad choice to bring in pug fullclears — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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[Raid] Why BiS DPS builds often are a bad choice to bring in pug fullclears

Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

Hey,

I often see players switching builds/characters like crazy in a full clear pug, always trying to bring BiS dps build for each boss. So, in the hopes its not just plain obstinacy, here's a few points to consider when you've been in the same habit.

1. Relog times

Relogging takes time. If you dont have a ssd, it takes even more time. If you havent your character parked and raid-ready (including food!) in raid lobby, it gets to unbearably long wait time.
The net gain from all dps switching to BiS dps builds is at the most 2-3 minutes killtime. If you already take longer than that switching characters, your switching around dps is a hinderance.
If not all dps switch to BiS - and lets be real, thats more the reality in pug runs - then that time gain is even lower. If those switching to BiS only can reach 80% dps benchmark of the build... then on all bosses except largos and dhuum, its already worse to even consider switching.
I quite often see players relogging between escort and KC, then relog again after TC and before Xera. Thats just unecessary downtime. Theres times and bosses where relogging is possible and helps with clearing the raid faster. For example, before starting w1, w3 or w6, switching to a power dps class. W1 and W3 you can just stay on that power dps class and all is well, w6 offers enough relog opportunities after CA and Largos.
But just following SCs BiS table for each boss will result in a lot longer fullclear than necessary, due to all the waiting on relogs. Not relogging constantly can shave at least 15 minutes of your overall fullclear time.

2. Speedclear strats - but not

Best example here is dragonhunter on gorseval. It can be hilariously strong, or it can be outdpsed by a condi dps build. For dragonhunter to really shine, it needs short burst phases. If you for example however run with 2 minstrel chronos, 2 druids, then you already have way longer phases. If your cc isnt instant - and I mean instant... not < 10 seconds - then that requirement isnt met at all. If too many people get egged in last phase -> not good.
In a static, you can run speedclear strats, because with practise together you get the timings right... when to burst, how much to cc.. etc. In a pug, thats nearly never the case.
Just switching dps to BiS, without actually meeting the necessary strategy requirements results in just difficult kills, without any time saved. On the contrary, in my experience with monday reset fullclear pugs, it results in MORE time spend due to failed speedclear strats causing longer phasing times - or even wipes.

3. Missing utility

BiS dps builds are build in a way that sacrifices as much utility (cc, invulns, aoe) for as much boss dps as possible. Lets take Samarog or Sloth for example. The longer the defiance bar is up, the slower the kill because you cant dps those bosses during defiance bar. It triggers me to no end, to see players using no cc - or even high dps skills - during defiance bar phases. Theres only a few very rare cases that not breaking a cc bar fast can help you get a kill faster - for example gorseval with a 2nd fullhealer and mainly condi dps. Everywhere else, the faster the cc bar is broken, the better your killtime.
You could now say, but its player xyz's job to cc, thats how speedclearers do it after all as well. Well, not one good dps player will just stupidly sit there and do his golem rotation on a boss with defiance bar up "because others are supposed to cc". Because: Faster killtime, higher boss dps compared to other logs.
And also, pugs are mostly random players with different playstyles and tactics. Expecting others to bring all utility just doesnt work.
In pugs you should always bring a slight surplus of cc and utility. Bring a scourge on MO for epidemicing the statues, its not necessary, but its safe. Dont use cc skills that are part of your rotation when a cc bar is coming up, or a mechanic has to be done. Switch out your +700 dps utility skill for a cc skill. Things like that. Nothing drastic, but small changes can already help a ton in terms of getting a good fullclear time.

4. BiS dps build doesnt automatically means high dps

In addition to above mentioned factors, just logging onto a BiS dps build doesnt make you a top tier dps. On all bosses, a well played non BiS (but meta) build is the better choice to a badly played BiS dps build. Yes, even on largos.
Theres only 2 bosses that are heavily stacked in favor of certain builds in gw2 raids - and thats KC and CA where power DPS builds or burst builds reign supreme. And even there its better to bring the power dps build you excell at - instead of logging on a BiS build that you can offer barely any dps on.

Some now might say: but thats really obvious. And yes, it is. Sadly, I see more and more players hopping on the "BiS" train in the last few months - hence this post.

Also, on a personal note, a pug fullclear isnt a record run. And if you cant meet certain skipping points to begin with then its ALWAYS a faster fullclear when bringing more utility focused dps builds.

Comments

  • Pugs literally need 5 minutes between trys to get a single readycheck done. Having a lot of people relogging barely does anything.
    DH is still more than fine on gorseval. Even if you dont phase fast enough.

    A lot of players play BiS because they might want to learn them or test something different.

  • Iris Ng.9845Iris Ng.9845 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2019

    I had a guildie who would always bring rifle DE to Xera because it's recommended by SC as Best DPS, even in a training run where everything fails miserably:

    • low DPS
    • slow CC
    • 0 cleave on adds
    • slow shard clear
    • kitten support

    Then they get frustrated.

    Anyways, I pug a LOT and it's actually quite rare that people swap to BiS DPS class for a specific encounter (except for Matthias and Largos). Everyone I've met just plays what they want to play. As long as they're not terribad, the general acceptance for DPS is rather chill. Many actually swap to a safer DPS if they see the group stutters with mechanics. For example: DD kiter vs DE rifle kiter (Qadim). NA pugs flake super fast so a smooth one shot clear is still highly preferable.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    WTH is a BiS DPS build?

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • @phs.6089 said:
    WTH is a BiS DPS build?

    BiS = Best in Slot

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    WTH is a BiS DPS build?

    BiS = Best in Slot

    I know the abbreviation, never thought it could be use with a class/player not gear

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think pugs will care about this, they will insist on the DPS strats anyway. I used to run W1 with 6 scourges all the way (even gorse and sab) and it was ridiculously easy, and yes this is post all the nerfs. But would people want to do it? Nah they would join just to bother me and insist that I change to a proper strat. Go make your own squad and have it the hard way then dude.

  • @phs.6089 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    WTH is a BiS DPS build?

    BiS = Best in Slot

    I know the abbreviation, never thought it could be use with a class/player not gear

    It refers to the class in a ‘meta’ team comp on every boss. For example, on Dhuum, condi renegade would be considered BiS compared to other dps, despite other classes being more than capable.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For me it is not about the kill. I usualy play supports so my switching is gear and traits most of the time. That beeing said I would never take power tempest for mathias and if someone would say that I shouldnt swap i would left.

    For some players (like me) it doesmt matter how long is the full clear but howlong is the actual kill time.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    For me it is not about the kill. I usualy play supports so my switching is gear and traits most of the time. That beeing said I would never take power tempest for mathias and if someone would say that I shouldnt swap i would left.

    For some players (like me) it doesmt matter how long is the full clear but howlong is the actual kill time.

    Yeah, understandable but I guess you are not pugging. People that pug should realize that pug groups are going for the (safe) kill. If players have a different view they shouldn't join in the beginning and watch out for "Wxyz speed run with xyz" (example) or make their own group like people that want to do trainings shouldn't join a full/wing clear/usual boss kill group. Speed runners would save themselves and the others in the group a lot of time and nerves if they just stick to the goal of the commander/group. I had a few Gorse attempts in the past (100 LI groups or so) where people were whining that they had to take the last updraft. It was simple: they joined the wrong group. Needless to say that those were responsible for the wipe and after they had left and replaced by another player the kill went smooth (still) with last updraft. It's disgusting if people make their own rules in squads where they have no right to do so.
    Also your example is quite exceptional.
    On the other hand I would totally take power classes on Matthias if I know/see I have competent players which is possible when you killed Sloth and Trio with the same players before. I mean with condi classes even non-speed statics kill Matt with 3 minutes(?) left on the timer so there's enough room for non-optimal builds especially if it's not important to have to play as little mechanics as necessary due to having 2 strong healers in pugs.
    Additionally Matthias wouldn't fall into Yasis description since there's a lot of time for swapping out classes after Trio.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • wanya.1697wanya.1697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2019

    are 20k dps each from 8 players enough for every boss fight?

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    WTH is a BiS DPS build?

    BiS = Best in Slot

    I know the abbreviation, never thought it could be use with a class/player not gear

    It refers to the class in a ‘meta’ team comp on every boss. For example, on Dhuum, condi renegade would be considered BiS compared to other dps, despite other classes being more than capable.

    actualy renegades on dhuum, are very meta becouse of boonstrip. ofc u can play on mirage maybe... but u will prolly need to swap anyway
    w5 and w6 are full of swapping. thats why i play mesmer, it makes things much easier

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    For me it is not about the kill. I usualy play supports so my switching is gear and traits most of the time. That beeing said I would never take power tempest for mathias and if someone would say that I shouldnt swap i would left.

    For some players (like me) it doesmt matter how long is the full clear but howlong is the actual kill time.

    Yeah, understandable but I guess you are not pugging. People that pug should realize that pug groups are going for the (safe) kill. If players have a different view they shouldn't join in the beginning and watch out for "Wxyz speed run with xyz" (example) or make their own group like people that want to do trainings shouldn't join a full/wing clear/usual boss kill group. Speed runners would save themselves and the others in the group a lot of time and nerves if they just stick to the goal of the commander/group. I had a few Gorse attempts in the past (100 LI groups or so) where people were whining that they had to take the last updraft. It was simple: they joined the wrong group. Needless to say that those were responsible for the wipe and after they had left and replaced by another player the kill went smooth (still) with last updraft. It's disgusting if people make their own rules in squads where they have no right to do so.
    Also your example is quite exceptional.
    On the other hand I would totally take power classes on Matthias if I know/see I have competent players which is possible when you killed Sloth and Trio with the same players before. I mean with condi classes even non-speed statics kill Matt with 3 minutes(?) left on the timer so there's enough room for non-optimal builds especially if it's not important to have to play as little mechanics as necessary due to having 2 strong healers in pugs.
    Additionally Matthias wouldn't fall into Yasis description since there's a lot of time for swapping out classes after Trio.

    Yes I do pug and I expect the same thing. I do not force players to swap but I will. If they cannot w8 for me to swap then they can kick me and w8 for next player to join. No hard feelings.
    I am not saying that optimal picks in speedrums are bis in pug runs. I wouldnt run rifle deadeye because it depends on the squad. That beeing said pug runs have their own bis options. If you refuse to w8 for me to pick something that will help us clear (because lets be honest but pug runs can be very bad and my optimal pick will give the squad advantage that they might need not to wipe) then I will not brother with you.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Yes I do pug and I expect the same thing. I do not force players to swap but I will. If they cannot w8 for me to swap then they can kick me and w8 for next player to join. No hard feelings.
    I am not saying that optimal picks in speedrums are bis in pug runs. I wouldnt run rifle deadeye because it depends on the squad. That beeing said pug runs have their own bis options. If you refuse to w8 for me to pick something that will help us clear (because lets be honest but pug runs can be very bad and my optimal pick will give the squad advantage that they might need not to wipe) then I will not brother with you.

    Totally agree but swapping out dps classes from ok'ish to bis ones is not needed in pugs. Those won't make a difference at all. Even in fractals where one single player has way more influence it doesn't rly matter unless you want some speed clear or very effective strats.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @wanya.1697 said:
    are 20k dps each from 8 players enough for every boss fight?

    Yes and no. You probably will be able to get kills, but their are bosses which have a little higher dps requirements for the general used tactics.

    Also the dps a person does varies a lot per boss.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2019

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    Pugs literally need 5 minutes between trys to get a single readycheck done. Having a lot of people relogging barely does anything.
    DH is still more than fine on gorseval. Even if you dont phase fast enough.

    A lot of players play BiS because they might want to learn them or test something different.

    You are mixing up cause and effect there. Pugs need 5 minutes because of relogging. Not people are relogging because theres a 5 minute gap between each boss.
    Ofc DH is still fine on gorseval. But to have 1 or 2 players relog after the pre-event to it with the hopes of speeding up the kill is ludicrous. Even with an ssd and dh already parked in aerodrome ready to raid, the time to relog is longer than what you can shave of the killtime in pugs. Especially on gorseval, slow cc and getting knocked back / egged costs you way more time than any BiS dps build could ever offer there.

    And if you want to learn a new build - after ofc learning rotation on golem - it would be best to not swap off that class anyway. So you'd play full w1 on it, right? Exactly what Im trying to get people to do.

    I mean, there's a pre-event between VG and gorseval. Its in pugs highly risky to relog during portals and river run event, but you can relog on the last part if you have a fast enough computer setup for it. So its rather a not very good example. My favorite example for holy-kitten-you-annoy-me relog behaviour is that guy that logs Mirage for Cairn, Deadeye for MO, Dragonhunter for Samarog and Deimos. Even if he does superb dmg with all of those classes, the time it costs for him to relog between MO and Samarog (+ walking to the boss) is already longer than what he can contribute in time saved.

    Most DPS players in pugs hopelessly overestimate the amount of contribution their dps does. What costs time in pug raid clears is:

    • mediocre or even bad boon uptime
    • slow cc
    • failed mechanics
    • too many potty and relog breaks
    • having to LFG for that guy that couldnt stay another 5 min for the last boss kill

    @phs.6089 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    WTH is a BiS DPS build?

    BiS = Best in Slot

    I know the abbreviation, never thought it could be use with a class/player not gear

    Hey, what I meant with it - and sadly what a lot of pugs use as a guidance system - is on the SC website, on each raidbuild page... theres a "Raid viability" chart.

  • @Yasi.9065 said:
    You are mixing up cause and effect there. Pugs need 5 minutes because of relogging. Not people are relogging because theres a 5 minute gap between each boss.

    No, i really meant inbetween trys. If you wipe on VG many groups need a lot of time to even start the readycheck again.

    Especially on gorseval, slow cc and getting knocked back / egged costs

    2/3 are on the Chrono though. Giving Aegis for the slam and pulling the spirits isnt difficult. As long as its not a training i pretty much expect aegis. If i dont get it the first time i dodge the rest of his slams though.

    And if you want to learn a new build - after ofc learning rotation on golem - it would be best to not swap off that class anyway. So you'd play full w1 on it, right?

    Not really. You kinda wanna play the class where it makes sense.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    Constant swapping is certainly one of the biggest culprits when it comes to wasting time. With a single slow person taking up more time to swap than it takes to kill a few of the quicker bosses (even when done by a imperfect composition).
    The few times my static has to LFG someone for our full-clears often includes said person wanting to jump from one pDPS to another pDPS which usually takes more time than we need to nine-man the boss in question if we insta pull. And we have just done so before when some people refused to listen or decided to ignore the part about "no unnecessary swapping during the run" in the LFG message. Not that there aren't good spots to swap or that you can't do it if you are fast enough.
    Anyways, minimizing said waiting time as much as possible is the easiest way to ensure a good full-clear time once you have achieved a certain level of individual performances. Nothing new, though.

    However, pugs are a different story entirely. Most players prefer to go safe than sorry there. They prefer to set up a BiS composition for each individual encounter. Thus they rather spend ten minutes in preparation than possibly having to deal with multiple wipes caused by "bad classes". Something that is mostly nonsense, of course. Certain speed-kill compositions aren't exactly required for a normal kill nor are they the safest option to ensure a smooth kill (even less so if people struggle to perform at the level needed). Also nothing new but this seems to be the mindset of many players you meet in pugs or those who fill in for your static.
    There is also the fact that you might as well just swap builds to something more optimal if others are doing so already. Which someone is always happens to do in pugs runs no matter what
    And all of that doesn't even include other waiting times. Calls, door bells, girlfriend-aggro, boyfriend-aggro, cats, dogs, moms, food, toilet breaks, people watching movies on the side, jerking off with one hand, potato computers, terrible connections, etc. just to name a few.
    It would require a perfect world where people are knowledgeable about the topic in question and skilled enough to perform, where nobody will complain if you don't instantly jump to the BiS build, where everyone is prepared (characters, builds, practice) and able to focus all of their attention on the raid for this to go away for the most part.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    @yann.1946 said:

    @wanya.1697 said:
    are 20k dps each from 8 players enough for every boss fight?

    Yes and no. You probably will be able to get kills, but their are bosses which have a little higher dps requirements for the general used tactics.

    Also the dps a person does varies a lot per boss.

    20k each from 8 players (so, ~23k+ each from 6 dps players in the usual pug 2 support 2 heal 6 dps setup) is overkill for practically any boss.

    And as for switching classes inbetween bosses - with pugs you usually have enough time to do that. Those are not speedruns. And while you might say that it saves at most 2-3 minutes killtime, you have to remember that while kill speed by itself is irrelevant for pugs, those 2-3 minutes can make the kill so much safer. Basically, the greater your dps, the less you depend on the quality of dps from other pugs, and the less time for those other pugs to make a mistake that might wipe the squad. It's not about saving 2-3 minutes. It's about not having to make another attempt after the first one fails.

    Basically, if you can increase the chances of success (no matter how slightly), just by changing to a different class/build, why not do it?

    It's mainly for pugs, though. In a static, doing a run you have done countless times before, in a setup you've tried many times over, if you know it doesn't matter whether you switch or not, you will still get the kill, in such a situation you might as well not bother.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @wanya.1697 said:
    are 20k dps each from 8 players enough for every boss fight?

    Yes and no. You probably will be able to get kills, but their are bosses which have a little higher dps requirements for the general used tactics.

    Also the dps a person does varies a lot per boss.

    20k each from 8 players (so, ~23k+ each from 6 dps players in the usual pug 2 support 2 heal 6 dps setup) is overkill for practically any boss.

    And as for switching classes inbetween bosses - with pugs you usually have enough time to do that. Those are not speedruns. And while you might say that it saves at most 2-3 minutes killtime, you have to remember that while kill speed by itself is irrelevant for pugs, those 2-3 minutes can make the kill so much safer. Basically, the greater your dps, the less you depend on the quality of dps from other pugs, and the less time for those other pugs to make a mistake that might wipe the squad. It's not about saving 2-3 minutes. It's about not having to make another attempt after the first one fails.

    Basically, if you can increase the chances of success (no matter how slightly), just by changing to a different class/build, why not do it?

    No i absolutely agree. My statement has more to do with

    • Some strategies require higher dps (i don't tink 20k is not good enough for no updraft gorseval for example)
    • i'm not sure if the poster asked if the group can do 20k pp on the golem would be good enough or 20k on the bosses?
  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    @yann.1946 said:
    No i absolutely agree. My statement has more to do with

    • Some strategies require higher dps (i don't tink 20k is not good enough for no updraft gorseval for example)

    20k on boss from 8 people each is enough to do largos duo cm (one of the more strict dps checks so far). It's definitely enough for Gorse no-updraft.

    • i'm not sure if the poster asked if the group can do 20k pp on the golem would be good enough or 20k on the bosses?

    I assumed the bosses. 20k on golem for dps is not that good, after all, and would likely mean sub-10k on boss (well, depending on the specific boss, of course).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    No i absolutely agree. My statement has more to do with

    • Some strategies require higher dps (i don't tink 20k is not good enough for no updraft gorseval for example)

    20k on boss from 8 people each is enough to do largos duo cm (one of the more strict dps checks so far). It's definitely enough for Gorse no-updraft.

    I recently failed a try of Gors no updraft with everyone above 20k. But I guess slow cc can change that.

    • i'm not sure if the poster asked if the group can do 20k pp on the golem would be good enough or 20k on the bosses?

    I assumed the bosses. 20k on golem for dps is not that good, after all, and would likely mean sub-10k on boss (well, depending on the specific boss, of course).

    We'll that's why I wondered.
    If he meant on the golem the answer would have to be no.
    If he meant on bosses it's a weird question to ask because it changes so much per boss.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    No i absolutely agree. My statement has more to do with

    • Some strategies require higher dps (i don't tink 20k is not good enough for no updraft gorseval for example)

    20k on boss from 8 people each is enough to do largos duo cm (one of the more strict dps checks so far). It's definitely enough for Gorse no-updraft.


    I recently failed a try of Gors no updraft with everyone above 20k. But I guess slow cc can change that.

    • i'm not sure if the poster asked if the group can do 20k pp on the golem would be good enough or 20k on the bosses?

    I assumed the bosses. 20k on golem for dps is not that good, after all, and would likely mean sub-10k on boss (well, depending on the specific boss, of course).

    We'll that's why I wondered.
    If he meant on the golem the answer would have to be no.
    If he meant on bosses it's a weird question to ask because it changes so much per boss.

    If you're ever not sure if your dps is "okay," just take a trip down to gw2raidar... It shows you how every class is doing against every boss--even non BiS ones. If you're hitting 90th percentile numbers or better, you will literally never be kicked from a group.

    As for your gorse example, you must be talking 20k before the first updraft or cleave numbers, which yeah is pretty low--but for boss dps, 20k isn't even an obtainable number for end of fight numbers on gorse... 99th percentile for him is only 19k, and that's only for deadeyes... Other classes it's even lower.

    But yeah, these are the numbers most people refer to when talking about a fight... So if you ever see someone say something like, "Yeah, I did 30k to deimos," you know they're either just flat lying or talking about cleave, but either way they've probably never actually finished the entire fight before--since by the time all the phases have done their thing, even your cleave numbers drop by so much.

  • Kelieto.6375Kelieto.6375 Member ✭✭

    @Iris Ng.9845 said:
    I had a guildie who would always bring rifle DE to Xera because it's recommended by SC as Best DPS, even in a training run where everything fails miserably:

    Am I in an alternate universe? When did Rifle Deadeye become meta for Xera on the SC website?

    As for OP, I don't believe you. I very rarely see what you described. I raid on EU so if you're on NA then maybe it's a region thing.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭

    I cant agree with you more. i dont raid that much recently but when i did. i always have to tell my squad member..please focus on what we need here, not just dps.

  • Honestly I always bring power reaper or condi scourge and while not meta i find myself at top dps a lot of the time. It's so much more important to play a class that you like and are familar with rather than " what's best" The only time I really swap to anything else is mirage for largos cuz kitten is broken.

  • Moona.6327Moona.6327 Member ✭✭

    I've avoided raiding in this game, I did a boss couple weeks ago, and literally the boss mechanics have you knocked down 90% of the fight, not fun design, I hated it, I stuck with open world instead.

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    @Moona.6327 said:
    I've avoided raiding in this game, I did a boss couple weeks ago, and literally the boss mechanics have you knocked down 90% of the fight, not fun design, I hated it, I stuck with open world instead.

    There is no raid boss that knock you down 90% of the time, if there is then your group is doing the mechanic wrong.

    Which one did you do?

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Moona.6327 said:
    I've avoided raiding in this game, I did a boss couple weeks ago, and literally the boss mechanics have you knocked down 90% of the fight, not fun design, I hated it, I stuck with open world instead.

    There is no raid boss that knock you down 90% of the time, if there is then your group is doing the mechanic wrong.

    Which one did you do?

    Sounds like unexpierienced Cairn ;)

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    Anything can be dealt with with the appropriate amount of counterplay. There is a rather easy solution to an overload of stuns and knockdowns, just like there is a way to avoid red circles or easy to read attacks. There is certainly no boss in place that forces you to spend 90% of the fight knocked down without any way to avoid said situation. I wouldn't consider anything that doesn't require even the most basic understanding of the game "fun" myself but each their own in the end. Any content has a target audience.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Moona.6327Moona.6327 Member ✭✭

    The boss fight was Cairn, most ridiculous design i've ever seen in a game, literally spent more than half the fight face down, can barely get any kind of damage rotation going before you're mindlessly and incessantly interrupted and on the ground again.

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Moona.6327 said:
    The boss fight was Cairn, most ridiculous design i've ever seen in a game, literally spent more than half the fight face down, can barely get any kind of damage rotation going before you're mindlessly and incessantly interrupted and on the ground again.

    So if you get knocked down constantly either one of two things happened.

    First: You weren't in the middle. If you put the shaders on medium you'll see a some sort of circle in the ground. This is the safe zone for the third part of his AA where he spawns shards that will knock you away. Quite a lot of people are getting constantly knocked because they are not in the safe zone and they don't see it ( a lot of people you put shaders on low here )
    Second: Someone reflected the shards quite often. Shards still knock you down if they are reflected.

    There are two other knock down abilities. First his LONG kitten OF JUSTICE. Where he transforms his right arm into a pole. slams it on the ground and does a 360 with it. If you see the arm on the ground then and it moves, just dodge to the right.
    Second is his teleport ability, just don't be in his way and wait until he is in the middle again before moving to a green. I still see quite a few people getting knocked off the platform due to them being impatient.

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    @Moona.6327 said:
    The boss fight was Cairn, most ridiculous design i've ever seen in a game, literally spent more than half the fight face down, can barely get any kind of damage rotation going before you're mindlessly and incessantly interrupted and on the ground again.

    That's because your group did the fight incorrectly.

    Cairn targets the person furthest away from the group with his range attack which cause knock down if you are hit. So the general idea is to have a person stand on the edge of the platform and just focus on tanking the attacks. This is generally either a healer with some sort of projectile destruction such as druid or renegade, you can also do it on a couple other classes like scourge and deadeye but those 2 are the safest. The rest of the group then stand behind him and do your rotation while not get teleported.

    The other attack could be the giant aoe sweep that happens a couple times in the fight which you can dodge.

    I am assuming your group had no kiter which caused the issue. You can definitely beat it while standing in the middle if your group knows how to deal with it either stability or projectile destruction. However since this probably sounds like a new group, get a kiter.

    tl;dr: Your group did the mechanic wrong. Would be better if you guys read or watch a guide.

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Moona.6327 said:
    The boss fight was Cairn, most ridiculous design i've ever seen in a game, literally spent more than half the fight face down, can barely get any kind of damage rotation going before you're mindlessly and incessantly interrupted and on the ground again.

    That's because your group did the fight incorrectly.

    Cairn targets the person furthest away from the group with his range attack which cause knock down if you are hit. So the general idea is to have a person stand on the edge of the group and just focus on tanking the attacks. This is generally either a healer with some sort of projectile destruction such as druid or renegade, you can also do it on a couple other classes like scourge but those 2 are the safest. The rest of the group then stand behind him and do your rotation.

    The other attack could be the giant aoe sweep that happens a couple times in the fight which you can dodge.

    I am assuming your group had no kiter which caused the issue. You can definitely beat it while standing in the middle if your group knows how to deal with it either stability or projectile destruction. However since this probably sounds like a new group, get a kiter.

    tl;dr: Your group did the mechanic wrong.

    Thing is you don't need projectile destruction or stability on the boss. Just stand close enough and you won't get hit by the shards. Don't reflect the shards and you'll be fine.

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    @Walhalla.5473 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Moona.6327 said:
    The boss fight was Cairn, most ridiculous design i've ever seen in a game, literally spent more than half the fight face down, can barely get any kind of damage rotation going before you're mindlessly and incessantly interrupted and on the ground again.

    That's because your group did the fight incorrectly.

    Cairn targets the person furthest away from the group with his range attack which cause knock down if you are hit. So the general idea is to have a person stand on the edge of the group and just focus on tanking the attacks. This is generally either a healer with some sort of projectile destruction such as druid or renegade, you can also do it on a couple other classes like scourge but those 2 are the safest. The rest of the group then stand behind him and do your rotation.

    The other attack could be the giant aoe sweep that happens a couple times in the fight which you can dodge.

    I am assuming your group had no kiter which caused the issue. You can definitely beat it while standing in the middle if your group knows how to deal with it either stability or projectile destruction. However since this probably sounds like a new group, get a kiter.

    tl;dr: Your group did the mechanic wrong.

    Thing is you don't need projectile destruction or stability on the boss. Just stand close enough and you won't get hit by the shards. Don't reflect the shards and you'll be fine.

    Yes, but some groups like to just all stack on the boss and phase fast enough so you can keep up projectile destruction or stability. You just need an entire group of people who knows how to burst and people who knows how to rotate through their stab or projectile defense. That's probably not the case here but I just point it out in case.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2019

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Walhalla.5473 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Moona.6327 said:
    The boss fight was Cairn, most ridiculous design i've ever seen in a game, literally spent more than half the fight face down, can barely get any kind of damage rotation going before you're mindlessly and incessantly interrupted and on the ground again.

    That's because your group did the fight incorrectly.

    Cairn targets the person furthest away from the group with his range attack which cause knock down if you are hit. So the general idea is to have a person stand on the edge of the group and just focus on tanking the attacks. This is generally either a healer with some sort of projectile destruction such as druid or renegade, you can also do it on a couple other classes like scourge but those 2 are the safest. The rest of the group then stand behind him and do your rotation.

    The other attack could be the giant aoe sweep that happens a couple times in the fight which you can dodge.

    I am assuming your group had no kiter which caused the issue. You can definitely beat it while standing in the middle if your group knows how to deal with it either stability or projectile destruction. However since this probably sounds like a new group, get a kiter.

    tl;dr: Your group did the mechanic wrong.

    Thing is you don't need projectile destruction or stability on the boss. Just stand close enough and you won't get hit by the shards. Don't reflect the shards and you'll be fine.

    Yes, but some groups like to just all stack on the boss and phase fast enough so you can keep up projectile destruction or stability. You just need an entire group of people who knows how to burst and people who knows how to rotate through their stab or projectile defense. That's probably not the case here but I just point it out in case.

    Stability is useful for no-greens strats where you just heal thru the AoE. And doing no-greens at Cairn means that people don't need to run away from center which means they won't get messed up by the shards after greens.
    Projectile destruction isn't needed indeed if people stand within the carved circle with dpsers on one side and agonies on the other sides out of stack. But in not-so-experienced squads (Read: training, semi-exp and 95% of exp pug squads) at least some agony person (usually all of them) decide to go kiting outside the circle instead and in those cases using a projectile destruction at their direction helps avoid unnecessarily unnecessary downs.

    Or someone decides to play power daredevil for whatever (usually unthoughtful) reason, projectile destruction does help at reducing the reflected shards. Kitty wants to scream everytime she gets spinned around directly under the boss due to some reflect. <.<

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .