PvP Mesmer Out of META - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

PvP Mesmer Out of META

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  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭

    Stop buffing anything. Nerf stuff like Holo. Better just nerf everything, stop the power creep and sustain creep and just nerf everything. As for mesmer, it clearly doesn't need a buff, in particular not on condi.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    condi mirage is fine, especially for ranked queue
    mirage was extremely overpowered most of last year, i guess mesmers got a little used to facerolling through games

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    It would help if the currently power-crept stuff like Holo, SB, Rev, SLB, Scrapper, and maybe Scourge and FB were toned down. I would prefer reverse-power-creeping over more power-creeping as a means to level the playing field.

    Anet's next power creep move is to just get rid of health bars all together. We don't need em, since everything dies in under a second.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    When i quitted Thief and became mesmer i feel so meta and so OP. Mesmer is out of meta? I doubt... if it is then Thief is totally out of the game in general. Sometimes u gotta try other classes to realise your actual place in the "meta".

    #MakeTeefGreatAgain

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    Honestly, what does it matter what type of damage kills you.
    Getting 10 stacks for Torment / Burning onto someone, deals about the same damage as if u eat 3 hits from Holos, Revs, SlBs or SBs.

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    I don't even care about overall balance.
    FIRST they need to:

    1. Fix the blatant biasses present in the game. God, they are supposed to be professionals
      https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/74289/anets-favourite-child/p1
      .
    2. Bring "Trait Choice" back to the mesmer trait lines.
      Right now there are obvious 'trait winners' and obvious 'dead traits' as well. You literally don't even need to make trait decisions when playing a mesmer anymore. They are basically made for you as long as you know how to read what the traits do.
      This wasn't always the case.
      .
    3. Make mesmer fun to play again.
      .
    4. Undo core mesmer trait nerfs since core mesmer was never meta since before HoT, make the correct balancing decisions that should have been made a long time ago, and bring all the elites in the game in line with the cores.
      .
    5. Quite listening to streamers who don't know what they are talking about or present themselves as knowing more about a class then they do.
      .
    6. Bring back the people you banned or quite who wouldn't have been banned or quite if mesmer was handled correctly in the past to begin with.
      .
    7. Quite making broken promises or if you do so, apologize.
      "Chronomancy is the only specialization allowed access to this powerful effect" my butt.

    Yeah the problem with #3 is that it makes unfun for everyone else
    And about #5 you can listen from Tournament of Legends champions as well... Sindrener also thinks mesmers were ridiculous

    1. I'm not saying that it wasn't unfun to fight against or still isn't unfun to fight against
    I'm just saying right now mesmer (not just mirage) is not fun to play and probably STILL isn't fun to fight against as well. Just because a class is unfun to fight against does not automatically mean its fun to play or vice versa, these are exclusive issues.. So no, that is not a problem with #3.

    1. I didn't say that all streamers were incorrect. Steamers are free to make whatever comments they want, balancing decisions just shouldn't be made based on that
      (unless the streamer uses data-but then it should be based on the data presented). To do so without using data would be an appeal to authority logical fallacy. It doesn't mean such authority is always wrong. However, that doesn't mean using authority for decisions on its own accord or just because they said something isn't fallacious reasoning.

    I agree with you then :)

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    If mesmer was carried by build before, does that mean Rangers, Engies, and Wars are getting carried by their builds now?
    Having builds that have equal or more defensive options, and either high burst or more reliable damage?

    Yes. The above classes need to be looked at and need changes made to them as well. Heralds might also need tuning, though I am willing to kind of hold the conclusion on that due to how allergic they are to conditions. No classes should be able to attain a build or rotation that walls any counterplay out. That's the only way the meta is going to become autonomous.

    Does that mean thief, has been carried for years? Because until PoF dropped, and excluding S1 Chronobunk (which was gutted immediately) Mes was pretty much easily replaced in slot by thief if not Portal since pre HoT, and later double moa?

    No. And portal nerf needs to be reverted anyway.

    I'm usually the first one to come to the forums running my mouth about mesmer, but there are several nerfs that were done before the previous round that need to be addressed at least in part, IMO.

    That being said.

    I want to see where this goes. If they are slowly taking all of the overperforming specs down a peg, I want to see what the game looks like after Spellbreaker, Soulbeast, Scrapper and Holosmith get touched before I start yammering about unneeded nerfs outside of Portal. The past few patches have been heavy tone downs of toxic mechanics. I want to see if that pattern continues.

    If everything gets bumped down a peg, then dead traits and the like can be discussed. I am totally fine with every class having to manage their resources as hard as, say, thief. Every class has dead traits, some have had dead traits for years. Mesmer being late to that party is not a travesty to me.

    [ quietly chuckles in evasive mirror not having 100% uptime anymore on dodge, the audacity of that trait pre-nerf. ]

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    Condi Chaos Mirage is still very decent, a strong duelist with a lot of escape options for outnumbered fights and decent mobility. Chronobunker is also still a capable sidenoder. Interrupt builds based on Daze Mantra and Chaotic Interruption (+ Pistol and Shatter Daze) are a bit more niche, but can be devastating against builds without enough stability. Even Oneshot Chrono is seeing some use (Azzardome is doing wonders with it), and Power Mirage has always been around and getting decent result when used in the right situations. So there is still a lot of viable options.

    So yeah, Mesmer is still fine, even though not absolute S Tier. Metabattle underrates it imo, at least the first two builds I mentioned should still be in Great. It's just that Mesmer had so many top tier (bordering on god tier) builds for so long that now for the first time you actually have to be very good at the builds to make them work. Mirage is generally a bit harder to play than stuff like Spellbreaker, Holo or Scrapper [as in: you depend on timely use your mobility skills for survival more and can't allow any facetanking], which might be a reason why it underperforms in lower tiers. If you use your mobility tools (Blink, Jaunt, Staff 2, Illusionary Ambush) + stealth wisely it's still extremely painful to fight. The condi application on Mirage isn't as overwhelming as it used to be anymore, but it still constitutes very decent pressure against all but the heaviest of anti condi builds.

    Also double revenant oneshots pretty much anything, so it's a poor example to give when talking about Chrono viability, but that's another topic.

    Falásya / Caissech

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about Balance and PvP changes

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    The ele players in this topic, how can you say elementalist is out of meta when renegade has never been meta? At least tempest was very good in HoT so it's now your turn to be out of meta. Buff renegade.

    I think we can agree that every class has traits that don't worth picking. In mesmer's case, every traitline (except mirage and chronomancer lines) is already predefined if you want to play actual builds. That's obviously not good.

    Back to the topic, the hybrid (sage or wizard amulet) mirage is gone and now mirages are forced to take condition damage amulets. However, look at the current state of mesmer weapons: The condition output is nothing if they aren't backed by power damage. Mirage can't be scourge and it can't be revenant. Both scepter and axe are hybrid main hands, pistol is a hybrid off hand and staff is strictly utility-defensive weapon, it also has power damage in its phantasms.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I mean, there are good arguments on both sides... but previous condi mes was over tuned and everyone with a brain knew it.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    The ele players in this topic, how can you say elementalist is out of meta when renegade has never been meta? At least tempest was very good in HoT so it's now your turn to be out of meta. Buff renegade.

    I think we can agree that every class has traits that don't worth picking. In mesmer's case, every traitline (except mirage and chronomancer lines) is already predefined if you want to play actual builds. That's obviously not good.

    Back to the topic, the hybrid (sage or wizard amulet) mirage is gone and now mirages are forced to take condition damage amulets. However, look at the current state of mesmer weapons: The condition output is nothing if they aren't backed by power damage. Mirage can't be scourge and it can't be revenant. Both scepter and axe are hybrid main hands, pistol is a hybrid off hand and staff is strictly utility-defensive weapon, it also has power damage in its phantasms.

    Renegade is a specific spec and elementalist is an entire profession. Nice try, but very bad comparison. If you also want to argue about specific specs, then weaver has never been meta either. I don't get these arguments. Also lol at it being ele's turn to be out of the meta. You mean a 2-3 year turn with the way that things are going? Just because of tempest? With what other classes are pulling now, maybe that would justify ele being the only meta for a couple of years. This logic is pure nonsense.

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Omg ur outa of meta for the 1st time in 7 years? Cant play this game no more....#sarcasm....how about u main a ele then u have the right to complain about being out of meta.
    And i dont think its out of meta it still has a insta 25k dps bomb on power chrono i belive that can drop anything.

    I'm indifferent on Mesmers but I admit, you stole these words right from my mouth.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Renegade is a specific spec and elementalist is an entire profession. Nice try, but very bad comparison. If you also want to argue about specific specs, then weaver has never been meta either. I don't get these arguments. Also lol at it being ele's turn to be out of the meta. You mean a 2-3 year turn with the way that things are going? Just because of tempest? With what other classes are pulling now, maybe that would justify ele being the only meta for a couple of years. This logic is pure nonsense.

    Looks like I dropped this: /s

    Edit: I want to explain a bit more.
    AFAIK core mes was never "super op", while core ele had its times (celestial amulet).

    Saying "x was meta now it should be bad" should not be taken seriously.

  • HeadCrowned.6834HeadCrowned.6834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    Mirage is still useful since its capable of winning duels versus warriors. Other dps mesmer builds are not that uncommon either it seems in high pvp tiers. Its not godmode like it used to be, but its not bad at all. Mesmer has probably been the most meta out of all classes due to portal, but now they have to reinvent themselves a bit. And lets be thankful that Chrono is not meta. Chrono meta was definately the worst and most boring meta of all for me.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mesmer is a little underpowered compared to the meta builds right now indeed. There are better side noders and better +1s and better hybrids.

    But condi mirage is definitely not trash. Ele and thief are in a worse situation. If the dominating meta builds get nerfed, condi mirage might be fine again without buffs.

  • Vague Memory.2817Vague Memory.2817 Member ✭✭✭

    Rip Mes. I used to play power chrono, they nerfed it in several rounds into the ground until I found to be unplayable in PvP. Recently I switched to Mirage, and I dislike condi playstyle, but I did it any way only to find that it's damage output is very weak but has slightly better survivability. Seems I like I came in on the tail end of the death of the Mes. They have even nerfed a bunch of core mes trait for no real good reason, making all specs much weaker. A prime example is blinding dissipation. they turn it into 1 blind every 3osecs. It is totally useless now. No one in their right mind would choose this. A total over nerf. They literally don't want anyone to play the class. But when you compare other classes power and condi specs to Mes they are monsters, but apparently that is fine. What we've witness is what happens when interns are let loose on balancing classes. Behold Mes is dead!

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭

    There's still some good builds. The easiest ones are no longer AS easy. Now time to shave other classes and combos down. And make all health pools equal while we're at it.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Power mirage and Bunker Chrono is still a thing in Na. The number 1 Team in Na still runs a Power Mirage for a team comp and that clown is pretty God Tier on it.

    Holo/Rev/Mirage are all in the same spot at the moment till they get nerf or buffed.

    Imo thief/ele/soul beast is out of meta at the moment.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    If mesmer was carried by build before, does that mean Rangers, Engies, and Wars are getting carried by their builds now?
    Having builds that have equal or more defensive options, and either high burst or more reliable damage?

    Yes. The above classes need to be looked at and need changes made to them as well. Heralds might also need tuning, though I am willing to kind of hold the conclusion on that due to how allergic they are to conditions. No classes should be able to attain a build or rotation that walls any counterplay out. That's the only way the meta is going to become autonomous.

    Does that mean thief, has been carried for years? Because until PoF dropped, and excluding S1 Chronobunk (which was gutted immediately) Mes was pretty much easily replaced in slot by thief if not Portal since pre HoT, and later double moa?

    No. And portal nerf needs to be reverted anyway.

    I'm usually the first one to come to the forums running my mouth about mesmer, but there are several nerfs that were done before the previous round that need to be addressed at least in part, IMO.

    That being said.

    I want to see where this goes. If they are slowly taking all of the overperforming specs down a peg, I want to see what the game looks like after Spellbreaker, Soulbeast, Scrapper and Holosmith get touched before I start yammering about unneeded nerfs outside of Portal. The past few patches have been heavy tone downs of toxic mechanics. I want to see if that pattern continues.

    If everything gets bumped down a peg, then dead traits and the like can be discussed. I am totally fine with every class having to manage their resources as hard as, say, thief. Every class has dead traits, some have had dead traits for years. Mesmer being late to that party is not a travesty to me.

    [ quietly chuckles in evasive mirror not having 100% uptime anymore on dodge, the audacity of that trait pre-nerf. ]

    This is reasonable and gets my +1

    However, and this may be some historic animosity reflecting a bias; but I'm skeptical of A-net to do this properly given, the amount of bias and double standards there is against mesmer from both devs and players alike. Let's say that's all in the past and devs have an even handed perspective: Even if they are going to do it reasonably well, and honestly I'm totally on board with bringing everything down a bit; but I have my doubts a-net will do this in a timely manner. If it's going to take them till the end of August or September to bring those specs down, then they should have left mesmer par and reduced everything together.

    • Now maybe that is a work load A-net cannot accomplish, to be able to balance so many classes at the same time. If that is the case then there should be transparency regarding that, and we've never really had that communication.
  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Pretty hilarious see them talking about mesmer viablity without mesmer being present in the meta. NA mesmer as an example might play naked and faceroll 500-0 all NA teams regardless,thats how bad NA is

  • @Falan.1839 said:
    Condi Chaos Mirage is still very decent, a strong duelist with a lot of escape options for outnumbered fights and decent mobility. Chronobunker is also still a capable sidenoder. Interrupt builds based on Daze Mantra and Chaotic Interruption (+ Pistol and Shatter Daze) are a bit more niche, but can be devastating against builds without enough stability. Even Oneshot Chrono is seeing some use (Azzardome is doing wonders with it), and Power Mirage has always been around and getting decent result when used in the right situations. So there is still a lot of viable options.

    So yeah, Mesmer is still fine, even though not absolute S Tier. Metabattle underrates it imo, at least the first two builds I mentioned should still be in Great. It's just that Mesmer had so many top tier (bordering on god tier) builds for so long that now for the first time you actually have to be very good at the builds to make them work. Mirage is generally a bit harder to play than stuff like Spellbreaker, Holo or Scrapper [as in: you depend on timely use your mobility skills for survival more and can't allow any facetanking], which might be a reason why it underperforms in lower tiers. If you use your mobility tools (Blink, Jaunt, Staff 2, Illusionary Ambush) + stealth wisely it's still extremely painful to fight. The condi application on Mirage isn't as overwhelming as it used to be anymore, but it still constitutes very decent pressure against all but the heaviest of anti condi builds.

    Also double revenant oneshots pretty much anything, so it's a poor example to give when talking about Chrono viability, but that's another topic.

    .

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    Mesmer is a little underpowered compared to the meta builds right now indeed. There are better side noders and better +1s and better hybrids.

    But condi mirage is definitely not trash. Ele and thief are in a worse situation. If the dominating meta builds get nerfed, condi mirage might be fine again without buffs.

    I generally agree with these posts. I want to see what happens with the current meta builds before daring to ask for Mesmer buffs. I mean some in the community don't even want to let us have the third jaunt back even with the 50% c/d increase. Jaunt, a basic utility skill that passes as an "elite" skill for which Mirages have no better alternative.

    Tone down power-crept meta specs and condi mitigation, then revisit after.

  • @Aeolus.3615 said:
    So classes in this game get out of metas when they loose the carry damage output or gets harder for bad players to play???

    Yep, sometimes. Remember that if and when other things finally get nerfed. :)

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    @zoopop.5630 said:
    Power mirage and Bunker Chrono is still a thing in Na. The number 1 Team in Na still runs a Power Mirage for a team comp and that clown is pretty God Tier on it.

    Holo/Rev/Mirage are all in the same spot at the moment till they get nerf or buffed.

    Imo thief/ele/soul beast is out of meta at the moment.

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Pretty hilarious see them talking about mesmer viablity without mesmer being present in the meta. NA mesmer as an example might play naked and faceroll 500-0 all NA teams regardless,thats how bad NA is

    I am rly not for mesmer buffs but Holo and Mirage are clearly not even on the same planet when it comes to how broken and ez something is to play atm. Holo even beats Condimirage in both categories and Powermes is far away from that lvl . And yes Team USA could even 500:100 playing 4vs5 so that neither prove any Powermesmer viability nor the skill lvl of the mesmer player.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    So classes in this game get out of metas when they loose the carry damage output or gets harder for bad players to play???

    Yep, sometimes. Remember that if and when other things finally get nerfed. :)

    Just poke with it thief/ele/core guard, lets see their reaction

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

    Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭

    Mesmer is absolutely broken. Just because people are not good at it doesn't mean it's not good.

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jack.8124 said:
    According to metabattle, mesmer doesn't appear in the first 19 builds for pvp (obviusly, not in meta section and not in great section)
    Mesmer is completely out of meta, we think we need a big rebalance for mesmer...
    DPS mesmer is not able to play in high level
    Condi mesmer doesn't do damage anymore
    Bunker mesmer is completely getting oneshots by dual revenants
    Healing mesmer is a joke
    Boon generation mesmer doesn't exist
    The result... Mesmer is completely out of everything for pvp...

    Sorry for my poor English guys, I hope you understand it..

    Sounds like a Thief
    Oh wait Thief needs nerf how could it possibly sound alike

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

    Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

    This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.

    This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.

    If you are going to do a personal attack, at least say something that is actually true and actually happened.

    What need a nerf opinion from p1-p2 thread? Never happened?

    I've done exactly the opposite and stated that Rev damage is overtuned, power crept, and pretty much all the damage buffs the class has been given should be reverted and/or nerfed. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/943694/#Comment_943694

    What a change, well done ;)

    The fact is I was platinum and on LB with renegade during PoF launch

    Excuse me, even with all respect to your "achievement" but reaching platinum... You know...Never been hard ?

    while scrubs played condi mirage post phantasm rework during 2018 placed in gold and came here to claim it wasn't OP.I admit when a class I like is broken, these clowns do not.

    So who are these gold scrubs and clowns? Eh ? In fact MANY mesmer players admitted it was OP and suggested solutions that were ignored. Nice try !

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    So who are these gold scrubs and clowns? Eh ? In fact MANY mesmer players admitted it was OP and suggested solutions that were ignored. Nice try !

    I'm not referring to good mesmers, who still continue to be good and are still doing just fine. I'm referring to those who actually tried to defend the class back when it would even win 1v1 against its supposed counter.

    You want to find them? Search the mesmer forums in 2018 then search the previous seasons leaderboards for the randoms claiming the class was fine during that year. Oh look, none of them are on it. Big surprise.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    So who are these gold scrubs and clowns? Eh ? In fact MANY mesmer players admitted it was OP and suggested solutions that were ignored. Nice try !

    I'm not referring to good mesmers, who still continue to be good and are still doing just fine. I'm referring to those who actually tried to defend the class back when it would even win 1v1 against its supposed counter.

    You can find such people for every class regardless how broken it is, big surprise, I guess.

    You want to find them? Search the mesmer forums in 2018 then search the previous seasons leaderboards for the randoms claiming the class was fine during that year. Oh look, none of them are on it. Big surprise.

    Its not something I would like to spend time on, obviously. There is also probability they dont play anymore

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Cant play this game no more....#sarcasm....

    It's not sarcasm. Most good mesmers left pvp or changed mains.

    Hmmm.... So they bandwagon to what ever is most broken or just leave when the going gets tough.

    Im not sure if the point you're making is the one you're intending to make.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    Apologies if I come off as dry or blunt.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

    Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

    This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.

    This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.

    If you are going to do a personal attack, at least say something that is actually true and actually happened. The teams that actually won ran single rev.

    I've done exactly the opposite and stated that Rev damage is overtuned, power crept, and pretty much all the damage buffs the class has been given should be reverted and/or nerfed. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/943694/#Comment_943694

    The fact is I was platinum and on LB with renegade during PoF launch, while scrubs played condi mirage post phantasm rework during 2018 placed in gold and came here to claim it wasn't OP. I admit when a class I like is broken, these clowns do not.

    "Rev damage is OP... we should nerf everyone's damage at the same time" is not exactly a resounding criticism of the specific meta build that's been running roughshot over the meta since last July.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2019

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Cant play this game no more....#sarcasm....

    It's not sarcasm. Most good mesmers left pvp or changed mains.

    Hmmm.... So they bandwagon to what ever is most broken or just leave when the going gets tough.

    Im not sure if the point you're making is the one you're intending to make

    I remember way back during ESL some mesmer mains were switching to thief.
    Does the logic of bandwagoning go for them as well?
    People gravitate to what ever is most effective. If a team doesn't that team is usually doomed to fall behind.
    Another example. - Remember when Cele Ele was allowed to stack? I'm pretty sure not everyone was a main ele in that tournament.
    Do we call every high ranked aT player who switches mains to be more effective a bandwagoner?

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

    Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

    This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.

    This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    Mesmer is absolutely broken. Just because people are not good at it doesn't mean it's not good.

    Just because you are bad doesnt mean mesmer is absolutely broken.
    Its ultimate weapon against any class that is underperforming, renegade isnt bad,its just people suck at it. It was so simple all this time !

    Yeah? How much you wanna bet you can beat Zeromis in a 2/3?

    So...the counter to this arguement is..
    "Well my friend can beat you up so nyaa"
    Really?

    Why not just duel him yourself? Why do you need someone else to do it for you?

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2019

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

    Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

    This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.

    This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    Mesmer is absolutely broken. Just because people are not good at it doesn't mean it's not good.

    Just because you are bad doesnt mean mesmer is absolutely broken.
    Its ultimate weapon against any class that is underperforming, renegade isnt bad,its just people suck at it. It was so simple all this time !

    Yeah? How much you wanna bet you can beat Zeromis in a 2/3?

    What does that even have to do with the argument of praqtos? It was already mentioned several times that playing Powermesmer in a team that can beat every other NA team 500:100 even 4v5 doesn't proves anything and if praqtos can beat Zeromis or not is completely irrelevant for the discussion. But make him come EU, from what i have seen of him he is good ofc but i am sure we have more than one Powermes in EU can beat him in duels.

    Calling Powermes broken is bronze lvl btw and i bet you don't have enough skill to play it (and do anything else than roflstomp bad players with it). Condimes always was a good noobcarry simply because of how easy it is to play and it still can carry but less far than a Ranger or Engi can carry bad players atm.
    These are the 2 classes + Ele i switch to when i don't wanna get focused 24/7 as Necro (most played class out of multiclassing) and don't want to use any brain for playing.

    Still i vote for just nerf everything in terms of dmg and (passive) sustain. Don't buff anything, in particular not braindead builds like Condimesmer. We need a way less braindead meta. And balance is simple: What can facetank for ages shouldn't have any dmg and what is easy to play should be way less rewarding than a skillful build. Sadly Anet always was bad in balancing both of these points.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Cant play this game no more....#sarcasm....

    It's not sarcasm. Most good mesmers left pvp or changed mains.

    Hmmm.... So they bandwagon to what ever is most broken or just leave when the going gets tough.

    Im not sure if the point you're making is the one you're intending to make

    I remember way back during ESL some mesmer mains were switching to thief.
    Does the logic of bandwagoning go for them as well?
    People gravitate to what ever is most effective. If a team doesn't that team is usually doomed to fall behind.
    Another example. - Remember when Cele Ele was allowed to stack? I'm pretty sure not everyone was a main ele in that tournament.
    Do we call every high ranked aT player who switches mains to be more effective a bandwagoner?

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

    Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

    This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.

    This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    Mesmer is absolutely broken. Just because people are not good at it doesn't mean it's not good.

    Just because you are bad doesnt mean mesmer is absolutely broken.
    Its ultimate weapon against any class that is underperforming, renegade isnt bad,its just people suck at it. It was so simple all this time !

    Yeah? How much you wanna bet you can beat Zeromis in a 2/3?

    So...the counter to this arguement is..
    "Well my friend can beat you up so nyaa"
    Really?

    Why not just duel him yourself? Why do you need someone else to do it for you?

    I wasnt referring too class switching to counter enemy comps.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    Apologies if I come off as dry or blunt.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2019

    @Jack.8124 said:
    According to metabattle, mesmer doesn't appear in the first 19 builds for pvp (obviusly, not in meta section and not in great section)
    Mesmer is completely out of meta, we think we need a big rebalance for mesmer...

    Mesmers had been brokenly overpowered for the longest record, still see plenty of plays in ranked, but teams may decide not to run it for team synergy at high ranks, which is fine

    ... to your points

    DPS mesmer is not able to play in high level

    I still see people capable of single burst kills, if you can't then it mean your opponents are getting more adapted to mesmer bursts

    Condi mesmer doesn't do damage anymore

    Huh??? Condi mesmers probably the second most used condi build after Scourge

    Bunker mesmer is completely getting oneshots by dual revenants

    Is this still a thing? thought it went out the window years ago; the fact that you are getting 1 shot by revs means you are ill prepared, mesmer, even core have the most utilities of any class against rev bursts

    Healing mesmer is a joke

    Mesmer is never a heal support class

    Boon generation mesmer doesn't exist

    Chronomancer, but they are more of static placement support, making them a poor choice PvP where your team mates are constantly running around; sprit rangers are really powerful boon support, but lands in the same bucket that the placement is rather static


    The result... Mesmer is completely out of everything for pvp...

    have no idea why ppl go to Metabattle, it's a good place to get started, but it doesnt have all the best builds, quite a lot are outdated to the current balance; still playable just not as performing as well as it was

    if you want to find the best builds you need to watch streamers on youtube and twitch, and top players would usually adjust their builds base on guessing the builds the opposing team is running, or synergises with their team mate

    ... and it'd boring as heck if everyone just running the same build off MB

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why the kitten was this thread moved to Mesmer forums? It most definitely belonged in sPvP. Man, since Gaile Gray left the quality of forums moderation has dropped 50 notches...

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

    Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

    This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.

    This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    Mesmer is absolutely broken. Just because people are not good at it doesn't mean it's not good.

    Just because you are bad doesnt mean mesmer is absolutely broken.
    Its ultimate weapon against any class that is underperforming, renegade isnt bad,its just people suck at it. It was so simple all this time !

    Yeah? How much you wanna bet you can beat Zeromis in a 2/3?

    Zeromis gets away with power mirage in MATs because while he is a genuinely one of the best players to have ever played, he also does MATs with most of the other best players who have ever played the game, and those five would continue to win the MAT every single month even on largely nonmeta (But not full meme) team comps. How many months in a row have Team USA gone with games like 500-100, or 500-200? The answer as far back as I can see is nearly all of them. 500-360 is "close" for them. They've never lost a game as far back as I can see, and they've never had a close game as far back as I can see.

    The moment the MAT competition is on a point where close 490-500 games are happening for the finals, or where Team USA actually loses decisively, they're going to ask Zeromis to reroll. They don't right now because there is absolutely no need to. The NA MAT scene is completely and hilariously noncompetitive. It's significantly more dead and significantly less competitive than EU. EU tends to be more representative of the overall trends in balance changes because it's more competitive and thus people actually need to care about things like team composition. For starters it actually has teams that can give the usual MAT winners a decent game with scores like 450-500 instead of the 500-100 blowouts we get on NA.

    When they games get close Zeromis and Toker carry them out of it. They can tell him to reroll because "it's not meta" but power Mesmer is one of the biggest factors keeping them in such a strong spot. In fact, the times he's gone Condi mesmer have been the closest games they've had. Mesmer (and power especially) is insanely strong.

    You can say whatever about EU but everytime they come to NA they get stomped too...

    Mesmer is objectively really really strong. Its just not "Meta" cause the average flavor of the monther cant play it right now.

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Eurantien.4632 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

    Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

    This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.

    This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    Mesmer is absolutely broken. Just because people are not good at it doesn't mean it's not good.

    Just because you are bad doesnt mean mesmer is absolutely broken.
    Its ultimate weapon against any class that is underperforming, renegade isnt bad,its just people suck at it. It was so simple all this time !

    Yeah? How much you wanna bet you can beat Zeromis in a 2/3?

    Zeromis gets away with power mirage in MATs because while he is a genuinely one of the best players to have ever played, he also does MATs with most of the other best players who have ever played the game, and those five would continue to win the MAT every single month even on largely nonmeta (But not full meme) team comps. How many months in a row have Team USA gone with games like 500-100, or 500-200? The answer as far back as I can see is nearly all of them. 500-360 is "close" for them. They've never lost a game as far back as I can see, and they've never had a close game as far back as I can see.

    The moment the MAT competition is on a point where close 490-500 games are happening for the finals, or where Team USA actually loses decisively, they're going to ask Zeromis to reroll. They don't right now because there is absolutely no need to. The NA MAT scene is completely and hilariously noncompetitive. It's significantly more dead and significantly less competitive than EU. EU tends to be more representative of the overall trends in balance changes because it's more competitive and thus people actually need to care about things like team composition. For starters it actually has teams that can give the usual MAT winners a decent game with scores like 450-500 instead of the 500-100 blowouts we get on NA.

    When we do in-houses It always ends up with one of his teammates saying, "any team that has Zeromis wins, Zeromis play something else." Every. Time.

    The only way he switches off power mesmer is with crazy mesmer nerfs or crazy buffs to other things to phase mesmer out of the meta or shake up the meta completely.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭

    have a mesmer, and I very glad that this is out off meta ! Thanks !

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Just wanted to say...

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    Condi mesmer doesn't do damage anymore

    Huh??? Condi mesmers probably the second most used condi build after Scourge

    ^This is like saying "boats are probably the second most used means of overseas travel after planes."

    Something being a distant second in a situation with only two options really isn't saying much about the second's efficacy.

    OP said it does no dmg, there are plenty of other classes that can run condi builds, the fact that people still running condi mes shows that it is still viable, just not as potent as prior to rebalance

    to me it sounds like OP only like to copy builds off MB instead of exploring the possibilities of making things work after rebalance

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can name 5 Good mesmer main that can show you exactly why power mirage is still really strong regardless of how kitten most of the players that attempt to play it suck on it.

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