Attribute scaling in WvW

Hello everyone, my main character is called Jade Twinkye and I play on the Jade's Sea server. I already apologize for my poor writing, english isn't my native language.

In the past few days I have been playing some World versus World and I have encountered some issues (as a roamer mainly). There are people running full zerker gear and build, so these fights wouldn't last more than 10 seconds, they would either burst me down or I would and then I faced some unkillable zerg specs such as full tank firebrands for example.There have always been such specs in the game, and I'm not mad about it, however, as I was watching old roaming videos (2013-2014) and it appears that at that time, roamers were using half-tanky/half-dps build. So I had a thought about mordern builds and I kinda had an idea that people may actually enjoy more than the current meta.

What about making attributes scale in a way that there is a threshold that once you get over it, the stats just become less and less efficient. I know there is already such a thing but it seems like it's not rewarding enough. There is obviously a problem about power and condition damage, since might make it go over nine thousand as some would say, so it shall be properly designed. That being said, I think that making the game so it's very rewarding, even for DPS, to get to around 2k8 armor for example is a very good idea for various reasons. People would then stop being oneshotted and theorycrafting build would be way more interesting, instead of using only one type of gear, everybody could arrange their own statistics in order to suit the gameplay they're willing to have. Obviously combats would also be better since people would be able to run hybrid builds, with some tankyness, so the duel wouldn't be decided on a coinflip on which player attacked first.

This way of dealing with gear statistics is also very suitable for Guild Wars 2 and its willingness to make every class able to do some damages, to heal (at least yourself if not the entire group), to tank few hits and all. The trinity has been avoided by Guild Wars 2 for years (even though raids kinda brought it up), and I think that most players actually enjoy the fact that their character could have multiple roles, more than just being a bursting beast or a buffing slave.That being said I would love to see what you guys think about that, and I truly hope that Anet might read it and reply so we get a better understanding at where they are willing to go with their game.

@Yugz.6925 said:The trinity has been avoided by Guild Wars 2 for years (even though raids kinda brought it up), and I think that most players actually enjoy the fact that their character could have multiple roles, more than just being a bursting beast or a buffing slave.

Uh you are arguing that too many people are either dps or tanks. Thats a major part of any trinity. And its two distinct roles. Then you are arguing you want people to hybrid more, which obviously reduces the importance of roles and the trinity.

What exactly is the point of this suggestion other than being completely contradictory?

You have to rememer this game is all about active defense. A good showcase of this is getting hit by a thief's vault where a marauder elementalist (squishy 2k armor) takes 18k damage and a minstrel guardian (full tank 3,5k armor) takes 12k. So the difference is around 33%, meaning you might last 1-2 more hits by virtue of your gear.

In my opinion anything more than a 33% swing is way too much, as then unkillable builds will start to appear. We already see this with Firebrand and Scrapper, which if played well can be unkillable in 1v1's without even having the mobility to escape.

Looking at it the other way, investing in offensive stats allow you to kill things (2500 power = 2,5, 50% crit chance +~200% crit chance = 2,5+1,25=) 3,75, almost 4x faster. As you can see the difference is alot more here, but that is because we have active defense like protection, dodges, evades, invulns and condition removal. This is why any profession running full dps and rotating their defenses well will always be better than someone running tanky gear constantly getting hit, as they will lose everytime.

It also acts as a safeguard to encourage going squishy for more damage by rewarding you more for it, which is very healthy for the game. If you ever played a in a bunker meta, you will know. As it stands right now, coordination is needed to take down f.ex guardians in WvW which is based mostly on active positioning and skill rotations, but by reducing the possible damage incoming without nerfing the support, the meta will be to stand still and just overheal - which again would be unhealthy for the mode and player fun since with a decent setup there would be no risk and player skill would matter way less - it becomes a numbers game only. The only way to remedy this would be to nerf support skills aswell, but because of the 4:1 relationship the support builds would end up even less effective at supporting than a dps build is today and that would just encorage an all dps meta - which consists of 1-pushes and number's advantage.

All that being said there is nothing stopping you from adding some toughness to your build. You just have to accept there will be some players you just cannot kill without that extra damage, and that 99% of the cases where you usually go down you still will.

The better option is to work on managing your cooldowns, rotating defenses properly and how to pressure your opponents enough so they use theirs, be aware of your surroundings and know when to leg it. These contribute far more to your survival than even the tankiest gear can, and allow you alot more kills at the same time. If you worry about 1-shots, don't be afraid of equipping a "at 50% health" trait since that's what they are for, and use twitch/youtube to see how good players handle the situation as they will, in their full squishyness, make it out in 9/10 cases meaning the gear scaling isn't at fault.

In the quote you used there, I wanted to say that people enjoy having the opportunity to have multiple "roles" at the same time, the word "role" probably isn't the one I should have used, I meant different utility and that's also why I followed it by "more than just being a bursting beast or a buffing slave".Guild Wars 2 has always been fighting against trinity, and so have I. My point is that, having people going either full glass DPS or full tank is not enjoyable for anyone, since it does not suit the combat system very well.As I stated, for roamers, facing a full zerk deadeye or soulbeast is far from being fun, however, facing a class that does not one shot you is far more enjoyable since it allows more interesting fights in both sides. But that's also the case for zerging. Getting oneshotted by an hammer 2 rev isn't enjoyable at all. The game sadly rewards going full glass or full tank.I clearly am not arguing that too many people are either tank or dps, I am arguing that tanks or dps should be a bit less commited to these roles, as it used to be pre-HoT.

Using "thresholds" on attributes would then allow people to get some vitality, thoughness or healing power without loosing that much DPS. By buffing low thoughness effectiveness people would also get rewarding for swapping some of their berserker pieces to soldier pieces for example.This would result in having tankier DPS and DPSer tanks. This isn't about getting entierly rid of the trinity, it's about making it so it's fun to play.

"The better option is to work on managing your cooldowns, rotating defenses properly and how to pressure your opponents enough so they use theirs, be aware of your surroundings and know when to leg it. These contribute far more to your survival than even the tankiest gear can, and allow you alot more kills at the same time. If you worry about 1-shots, don't be afraid of equipping a "at 50% health" trait since that's what they are for, and use twitch/youtube to see how good players handle the situation as they will, in their full squishyness, make it out in 9/10 cases meaning the gear scaling isn't at fault."

• Actually I know the game pretty well, I'm not there to brag about anything but I have been in the top 150 pvp ladder many times, and I do know how to play the game properly. I don't want people to think that I am just complaining because I got killed by a ranger 2 in WvW. But I do think that the meta is way too bursty and it's keeping people out of PvP (either WvW or sPvP (even though WvW is a lot worse)). It's also making the fights much shorter which results in less fun and more randomness.

"In my opinion anything more than a 33% swing is way too much, as then unkillable builds will start to appear. We already see this with Firebrand and Scrapper, which if played well can be unkillable in 1v1's without even having the mobility to escape."

• Yes, and I agree with that, that's why there would also be thresholds on defensive stats.

"All that being said there is nothing stopping you from adding some toughness to your build. You just have to accept there will be some players you just cannot kill without that extra damage, and that 99% of the cases where you usually go down you still will. "

• As I said in the last answer, I think you missed the point there, it's not about making everyone tankier.

"This is why any profession running full dps and rotating their defenses well will always be better than someone running tanky gear constantly getting hit, as they will lose everytime."

• This is not about being constantly hit while being tanky. It's about not getting oneshotted if you don't dodge a spell. Personnal skill is really important in GW2 and I have no doubt that blowing up all defensive cooldowns is a bad idea. However there is a difference between HAVING TO evade every single spell from a revenant and being allowed to tank some. Getting oneshotted on a 1 sec stun is no close from skill, it's more about initiating the fight, and sometimes even what people call the coinflip syndrome, where people are just "spamming out evades" and wishing that they don't get hit by anything (that's actually most SD thieves in WvW).

Hmm a set cap on stats could be interesting, if a bit ham-fisted/forced approach on it. I should also point out that there are a lot of other things that have changed during that time (since core only) that affects this, the larger amount of +X% damage buffs available to classes, and the compensating larger amount of active defenses to battle this, and almost universally 50% reduced cooldowns on everything in the game since launch.

Essentially I suspect that tackling those would likely do a better job at making players vary stat selections into more hybrid than anything else.

I do miss the more varied gear selection pre HoT though, back when I could actually kill players in Clerics gear (Good times!).

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For the suggestion itself, I guess that depends a lot upon where you wish to set the limit, set it too low and Celstial = the best always, otherwise you're likely going to see mostly min/max to get the most of the usual stats (power, prec, fero) with as much other stats as possible crammed in after those are maxed out.

It would be kind of the same result as increasing the base stats but lower the stats gained from gear (weapon, armor/trinkets) by same amount, basically average out the stats more.

Another alternative would be dimishing returns on stats, that you gain slightly less each time you take a piece that gains a stat. Wouldn't need to be very high to feel it after 14 pieces of gear with power.

@"Yugz.6925" said:"The better option is to work on managing your cooldowns, rotating defenses properly and how to pressure your opponents enough so they use theirs, be aware of your surroundings and know when to leg it. These contribute far more to your survival than even the tankiest gear can, and allow you alot more kills at the same time. If you worry about 1-shots, don't be afraid of equipping a "at 50% health" trait since that's what they are for, and use twitch/youtube to see how good players handle the situation as they will, in their full squishyness, make it out in 9/10 cases meaning the gear scaling isn't at fault."

• Actually I know the game pretty well, I'm not there to brag about anything but I have been in the top 150 pvp ladder many times, and I do know how to play the game properly. I don't want people to think that I am just complaining because I got killed by a ranger 2 in WvW. But I do think that the meta is way too bursty and it's keeping people out of PvP (either WvW or sPvP (even though WvW is a lot worse)). It's also making the fights much shorter which results in less fun and more randomness.

"In my opinion anything more than a 33% swing is way too much, as then unkillable builds will start to appear. We already see this with Firebrand and Scrapper, which if played well can be unkillable in 1v1's without even having the mobility to escape."

• Yes, and I agree with that, that's why there would also be thresholds on defensive stats.

"All that being said there is nothing stopping you from adding some toughness to your build. You just have to accept there will be some players you just cannot kill without that extra damage, and that 99% of the cases where you usually go down you still will. "

• As I said in the last answer, I think you missed the point there, it's not about making everyone tankier.

"This is why any profession running full dps and rotating their defenses well will always be better than someone running tanky gear constantly getting hit, as they will lose everytime."

• This is not about being constantly hit while being tanky. It's about not getting oneshotted if you don't dodge a spell. Personnal skill is really important in GW2 and I have no doubt that blowing up all defensive cooldowns is a bad idea. However there is a difference between HAVING TO evade every single spell from a revenant and being allowed to tank some. Getting oneshotted on a 1 sec stun is no close from skill, it's more about initiating the fight, and sometimes even what people call the coinflip syndrome, where people are just "spamming out evades" and wishing that they don't get hit by anything (that's actually most SD thieves in WvW).

If you cap damage everyone will be tankier? Pretty straightforward logic.

What you are arguing for here is a simple increase in base armor for everyone, as capping defensive stats do absolutely nothing for a dps matchup like I've already explained.

If you cap vitality the difference in health pools will remain and since power stays at a maximum value the only way to increase ttk is to buff innate defense. In simpler terms: If you nerf both damage and defense equally, time to kill won't change one bit. Oneshots will be oneshots.

It's the same issue if you get confronted by a zerker staff elementalist in PvP, you do something or you go down, it's just the nature of their playstyle. It's meant to hurt since they will also go down with 2 direct hits. I agree things started to hit harder after HoT, but we also got even more tools to mitigate that damage with so it more than evens out. Just the fact marauder became a thing buffed most of the meta builds all around when it shifted away from berserker.

If you want diversity, we have 9 distinct professions with elite specs just for that:

• Feeling like facetanking? Go warrior.
• Want sustain and dps? Go ranger.
• Thinking of epic condi bombs? Go necro.
• You're a playmaker? Thief.
• Roaming time? Mesmer.
• Generous today? Guardian.

Just saying that professions and elite specs decide whether you can play as you want, and by allowing every profession to tank more you just make good builds even better and worse builds even worse. So if you are having issues with ranger/rev autos, how about trying a counter profession or take active steps in your build/playstyle to account for that. If you want your profession to handle facetanking better, then you probably aren't playing what's right for you.

Expecting the rest of us who already adapt to the game to be nerfed just because you refuse to, isn't helping you here. If you want a game with higher ttk, where gear matters just as much or more than skill and all classes feel the same - then gw2 will disappoint, simple as that. The players gearing for max dps in WvW are just as responsible for their build viability as you are in avoiding their damage. It's not unfair in any way, you can still choose to run whatever you want and however you choose.

I get your plight for the old days, I really do, but skill was way less of a factor back then as chaining cooldowns mattered more than evading that 1 burst, which makes for alot faster gameplay today. And I think at this point it is necessary in order to keep players engaged since we got better at the game and our coordination has become way more streamlined. Unfortunately we need to adjust to what the game is, not the other way around, meaning the chances of any of this happening are close to 0.

you're right. this is an excellent idea, but unfortunately anet has turned off their balance-ometer years ago.

I also dont like this burst meta, the game was much more fun back before hot even came out. The powercreep in dmg and defenses is just too much, you either go full dmg, and die/kill in a sec, or you go fulltank and cant kill/die.

Boon uptime is also waay to high, and too easy achievable by some classes.

Its just getting boring and is bad for build diversity.

"If you cap damage everyone will be tankier? Pretty straightforward logic.What you are arguing for here is a simple increase in base armor for everyone, as capping defensive stats do absolutely nothing for a dps matchup like I've already explained."

• This is nowhere close to what I argue for. What I am arguing for is to make stats less efficient when you just reach some threshold. That can either be power, condition damage, toughness, healing power ... In a DPS matchup like you said, this would result in rewarding getting some defensive stats. This would then make everyone tankier in a DPS vs DPS matchup, yes indeed. Why is that a good thing you may ask, well, it would make DPS vs DPS fights longer, so people really can use their game knowledge and skill to kill an ennemy. Let's take the example of either deadeye or soulbeast, because that might be what people are actually mad about in WvW. As good as you can be, if you get engaged by one of those classes, you might die in the blink of an eye, that's a fact. So these classes are kinda "cheated" in WvW. However, what if the classes wouldn't oneshot you ? Well the duel would be way more interesting, since these classes aren't as cheated as they appear : they lack of defensive spells. Making them not able to oneshot you make them drastically more balanced. But also more fun to play against. On the deadeye/soulbeast side, well they wouldn't be able to oneshot people from 1k5 range, but they would also be a bit tankier, and the ennemy damages would actually be slightly lower (since they're running a DPS build). So even tho they get CCed for a second, they may not die. Then the deadeye could use his stealth to create distance, the soulbeast could kite away and all. The game would be way more complex and fun, because you could counterplay these classes.What about a tank versus tank matchup ? Well they would be able to kill each other, since their damages would be higher and they would also be less tanky.

"Expecting the rest of us who already adapt to the game to be nerfed just because you refuse to, isn't helping you here. If you want a game with higher ttk, where gear matters just as much or more than skill and all classes feel the same - then gw2 will disappoint, simple as that."

• This kinda makes me laugh actually. You're talking to me like I just am a whinning guy in the forum craving for my class to get buffed. This is not the case. As I told you I am "adapted to the game" since I am an highly ranked PvP player. It's not about making gear mattering more than skill and class, it's about being able to use skill and class at its full potential.

"The players gearing for max dps in WvW are just as responsible for their build viability as you are in avoiding their damage. It's not unfair in any way, you can still choose to run whatever you want and however you choose."

• I'm not blaming anyone for going full glass or anything. I'm blaming the game for rewarding such a playstyle. I'm not even saying that this is unfair or whatever, I'm saying that there are adjustments that could be made to make to game more fun and more accessible to new players as well.

"Unfortunately we need to adjust to what the game is, not the other way around, meaning the chances of any of this happening are close to 0."

• I'm there to discuss about potential changes that may be either good or bad. By seeing posts like this ANet can and should be influenced in their balance patches. I am completly adapted to the current state of the game, but that's not a reason for denying that there is enormous issues, especially in WvW balance.

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"For the suggestion itself, I guess that depends a lot upon where you wish to set the limit, set it too low and Celstial = the best always, otherwise you're likely going to see mostly min/max to get the most of the usual stats (power, prec, fero) with as much other stats as possible crammed in after those are maxed out."

• This is very true, and I'm not able to tell you at what point these thresholds must appear. But I do agree with everything you said. These changes would require a good think and balance knowledge from devs to be really good. Because the full celestial meta wouldn't be better than our current. But I think that there is room for balancing such a feature.

Nope, DR isn’t the answer. All that does is kill build diversity and doesn’t solve real issues. Also, game companies that use a bunch of DR designs are basically saying to players “I know we make millions of dollars each year, but we don’t really care to reinvest in class development”.

I do not like the idea of diminishing returns, because the problem seems to be mostly centered on one shot builds and sustained critical hit and dmg. If that really is the problem, then another solution may be to buff toughness to reduce critical hit damage taken by an additional percentage (basically the opposite of ferocity). This encourages players to use toughness for it’s intended purpose, but also has the side effect of encouraging more condition builds (since those circumvent toughness).

@joneirikb.7506 said:Hmm a set cap on stats could be interesting, if a bit ham-fisted/forced approach on it.

It's the simplest and quickest solution. For instance, I think it's universally agreed that damage is too high in this mode, and has been for a long time. So why does Borderlands Bloodlust continue to exist? Change the boon granted by controlling the ruins to increased WXP, Reward Track, Supply, whatever, just don't grant additional stats to the players. We saw what happens when you increased these numbers even more during that Hold the Ruins to Nuke Your Foes weekly event.

But additionally, why not cap out stacks of might? Normally you can stack 25 in GW2, why not reduce that to 15 in WvW/sPvP?

How about if Fury only grants 10% critical chance in competitive game modes instead of 20%?

At LV 80 every 15 points of Ferocity adds 1% to critical damage. How about in Competitive Modes every 15 points of Ferocity adds 0.5% critical damage?

Just thinking off the cuff here, but to me these seems to be very simple ways of reducing the damage output by just changing how certain boons work while inside a competitive game environment. Probably the same changes need to be made to healing though, so as not to promote immortal players with pocket healers.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:At LV 80 every 15 points of Ferocity adds 1% to critical damage. How about in Competitive Modes every 15 points of Ferocity adds 0.5% critical damage?

This is by far the simplest way of adjusting balance in PvP modes, it affects all the problem builds simultaneously, all of the problems are around these burst builds which rely on huge damage spikes from ferocity and other critical hit bonuses. Given the WvW playground modes like no downstate, why not have a No crit damage week, find out if vulnerability and conditions can beat the full tank builds without Power builds needing added cushions.

"No crit damage week, find out if vulnerability and conditions can beat the full tank builds without Power builds needing added cushions."This is indeed a very good idea. I think experimenting on balance using the "week" system could be very effective. More than experimenting, this could actually createenthusiasm for WvW from the whole community. A good way to introduce more people in the game-mode.

@"Yugz.6925" said:"If you cap damage everyone will be tankier? Pretty straightforward logic.What you are arguing for here is a simple increase in base armor for everyone, as capping defensive stats do absolutely nothing for a dps matchup like I've already explained."

• This is nowhere close to what I argue for. What I am arguing for is to make stats less efficient when you just reach some threshold. That can either be power, condition damage, toughness, healing power ... In a DPS matchup like you said, this would result in rewarding getting some defensive stats. This would then make everyone tankier in a DPS vs DPS matchup, yes indeed. Why is that a good thing you may ask, well, it would make DPS vs DPS fights longer, so people really can use their game knowledge and skill to kill an ennemy. Let's take the example of either deadeye or soulbeast, because that might be what people are actually mad about in WvW. As good as you can be, if you get engaged by one of those classes, you might die in the blink of an eye, that's a fact. So these classes are kinda "cheated" in WvW. However, what if the classes wouldn't oneshot you ? Well the duel would be way more interesting, since these classes aren't as cheated as they appear : they lack of defensive spells. Making them not able to oneshot you make them drastically more balanced. But also more fun to play against. On the deadeye/soulbeast side, well they wouldn't be able to oneshot people from 1k5 range, but they would also be a bit tankier, and the ennemy damages would actually be slightly lower (since they're running a DPS build). So even tho they get CCed for a second, they may not die. Then the deadeye could use his stealth to create distance, the soulbeast could kite away and all. The game would be way more complex and fun, because you could counterplay these classes.What about a tank versus tank matchup ? Well they would be able to kill each other, since their damages would be higher and they would also be less tanky.

"Expecting the rest of us who already adapt to the game to be nerfed just because you refuse to, isn't helping you here. If you want a game with higher ttk, where gear matters just as much or more than skill and all classes feel the same - then gw2 will disappoint, simple as that."

• This kinda makes me laugh actually. You're talking to me like I just am a whinning guy in the forum craving for my class to get buffed. This is not the case. As I told you I am "adapted to the game" since I am an highly ranked PvP player. It's not about making gear mattering more than skill and class, it's about being able to use skill and class at its full potential.

"The players gearing for max dps in WvW are just as responsible for their build viability as you are in avoiding their damage. It's not unfair in any way, you can still choose to run whatever you want and however you choose."

• I'm not blaming anyone for going full glass or anything. I'm blaming the game for rewarding such a playstyle. I'm not even saying that this is unfair or whatever, I'm saying that there are adjustments that could be made to make to game more fun and more accessible to new players as well.

"Unfortunately we need to adjust to what the game is, not the other way around, meaning the chances of any of this happening are close to 0."

• I'm there to discuss about potential changes that may be either good or bad. By seeing posts like this ANet can and should be influenced in their balance patches. I am completly adapted to the current state of the game, but that's not a reason for denying that there is enormous issues, especially in WvW balance.

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"For the suggestion itself, I guess that depends a lot upon where you wish to set the limit, set it too low and Celstial = the best always, otherwise you're likely going to see mostly min/max to get the most of the usual stats (power, prec, fero) with as much other stats as possible crammed in after those are maxed out."

• This is very true, and I'm not able to tell you at what point these thresholds must appear. But I do agree with everything you said. These changes would require a good think and balance knowledge from devs to be really good. Because the full celestial meta wouldn't be better than our current. But I think that there is room for balancing such a feature.

Let me show you what will happen.

• Dps builds will cap out on damage, and why not supplement it with a little sustain right?
• Support builds will cap out on healing and boon duration, why not add some damage right?

Can you spot the difference? There is none since this forces a meta of 50/50 dps and sustain which only some professions and builds can shine with - others will be left behind in the dust. Basically if you cap out on damage and halfway in sustain, you will always win against someone that's full damage unless they are severly lower in skill. Why would anyone do that to themselves in a competitive mode?

Another factor to consider is the aforementiond imbalance of dps vs sustain, where investing stats in one type gives you almost 4 times the reward. You cannot, and I can't emphasize this enough, do an even split and expect it will work unless you want to remove support builds altogether or create something completely unkillable. If this balance is kept, then it doesn't matter if everyone is forced to run celestial stats as it will be the exact same case as a full zerker vs a full minstrel today. And again, not all professions shine on minstrel or even zerker for that matter. So unless your argument is to rework all professions to do everything equally good, this makes absolutely no sense.

Everyone also need to keep in mind with your suggestions that a nerf in one compartment will warrant a nerf in another. We half the crit value? Then we must half condition duration. We cap a max power value at 1560? Then we need to cap a max healing value at 560. Innate healthpools will be more relevant than ever in the meta since it's now free sustain, whatever imbalances there are between professions today would be way more noticable once we remove stat diversity.

If this makes no sense to anyone else, or you think players would enjoy playing with constant disadvantages, where ttk might go up from a 1-shot to a 2-shot nonetheless, or boons already fading into irrelevance need further suppression, then I don't really know what to say. It's not enough to look at the suggested change in a vacuum because it will benefit you in a specific circumstance, you need to look at everything else it will affect and how this fits with what's already in place.

You're not asking for slight DR, you're asking for a completely different game that would require a full overhaul of every profession and gamemodes (conquest would not work f.ex), it is the only way anyone would be able to do anything. If you truly believe facing anyone with both of you in celestial gear gives you a better winning chance, then I get your sentiment. But the gw2 I play is all about cooldowns, timing, reflexes and forward thinking, and the only gear choices I need to worry about are full support or full dps, the rest is arbitrary because the game values player skill over raw numbers - and I'd like to keep it that way since it's why I enjoy playing it.

Just to point out (again) that there are classes with so much +X% dmg modifiers and might stacking, that they could probably still 1-shot an enemy in potential much tankier gear. Just as some classes has so much sustain built into their class that they can be tanky in pure zerk. Modifying the stats alone won't fix those.

Well arguably gutting ferocity in half might work against those.

"Dps builds will cap out on damage, and why not supplement it with a little sustain right?Support builds will cap out on healing and boon duration, why not add some damage right?Can you spot the difference? There is none since this forces a meta of 50/50 dps and sustain which only some professions and builds can shine with - others will be left behind in the dust. Basically if you cap out on damage and halfway in sustain, you will always win against someone that's full damage unless they are severly lower in skill. Why would anyone do that to themselves in a competitive mode?"

• You're arguing like I'm willing to destroy stat efficiency past 1k5 power. It is not the case. If I was, then you would be right, classes with an hybridation potential would be way more efficient and then class balance would be fucked up. However, what I would like to change is add a stat scaling that would actually look more or less like the square root function. There would not be a cap to reach, every bit of stat would make you better in that attribute, but at some point, it could be useful to get some other statistics since they have a better theoretical efficiency. You are already admitting that the changes would be done in a unbalanced way.

"Everyone also need to keep in mind with your suggestions that a nerf in one compartment will warrant a nerf in another. We half the crit value? Then we must half condition duration."

• This is just not true. People are complaining about insane bursts, not about damage over time. Condition duration is not such a problem since it can be countered by being able to dispell those conditions.

"Everyone also need to keep in mind with your suggestions that a nerf in one compartment will warrant a nerf in another. We half the crit value? Then we must half condition duration. We cap a max power value at 1560? Then we need to cap a max healing value at 560. Innate healthpools will be more relevant than ever in the meta since it's now free sustain, whatever imbalances there are between professions today would be way more noticable once we remove stat diversity."

• Why would we cap power value at 1560 ? There would be absolutly no power cap, otherwise the game would absolutly be unbalanced since classes that have access to might and DPS buffers would be absolutly broken. What I was thinking of would be that stat efficiency in power would be a 1 ration from 1k to 2k, 0.8 from 2k to 2k5, 0.6 from 2k5 to 3k and 0.4 for 3k and more. Here I took the example of a discontinuous function for readability, but it is obviously a continuous function that would be the most interesting. These are random ratios, I haven't really taken time to really think about this in depth and the decrease on efficiency might actually be too hard, but I'm pretty sure that balance devs could actually design something really nice there. Because I truly believe that this isn't that hard to adjust properly.One problem that would appear though is stats added by might stacks. This is why I would also suggest a redesign of this buff : making them add % damage somehow would be way more interesting. Because buffing a player to 750 condition damage+power would then be too efficient for full tank builds, and not efficient enough on damage based players.You are actually saying that this would remove stat diversity, on the contrary. The goal there is to reward people for not getting a gear with a set full of the same stats. Of course, full zerker people would still hit way more than players that would use some toughness and all in their power based build, but it would just be less efficient than it is now.

"You're not asking for slight DR, you're asking for a completely different game that would require a full overhaul of every profession and gamemodes (conquest would not work f.ex), it is the only way anyone would be able to do anything. If you truly believe facing anyone with both of you in celestial gear gives you a better winning chance, then I get your sentiment. But the gw2 I play is all about cooldowns, timing, reflexes and forward thinking, and the only gear choices I need to worry about are full support or full dps, the rest is arbitrary because the game values player skill over raw numbers - and I'd like to keep it that way since it's why I enjoy playing it."

• I sadly feel like you have not really grasped the real purpose of this modification, and I actually believe that you could agree with me. Actually conquest, as you mentionned has a pure stat capping feature : amulets. You might have seen that but the amount of stats you're getting in conquest is way lower than in WvW. This results in having less burst capacity for most classes. The game-mode is actually more enjoyed than WvW "by skilled players" because it's more balanced. But there is something in sPvP that is nowhere close to what WvW offers : having the possibility to theorycraft and mix stats from your gear, which we don't do anymore in WvW.

---

To illustrate what I am saying I just want to link some youtube videos that I have been recently watching. These videos are roaming videos but I think that this feature could also impact deeply zerging (as a matter of fact reducing full healing power builds would reward blasting in water fiels, which actually was a way more interesting, skilled and fun mechanic in zergs).

There is a video of Vaanss, this is a recent video on the berserker elite spec, he's a very good player and we can actually see the current state of roaming, with enormous burst builds such as full damage berserker.

Just take a look at the first fight, I truly don't believe that it's fun for anyone to get oneshotted by a single spell. The counterplay there is possible, "you just have to evade it", but well if you don't evade it, your fight is ended. How enjoyable is that ?

There is a video of Hollts, he's also a very good player and uses the reaper elite spec at its full potential. What I sadly see in this video is that ennemy players can't tank a shroud 4 spell, and he either tank any income of damage : that results who is bursting first.

That being said, it's a wonderful video and it feels very good to see modern roaming make such ones.

Finally I am linking you an old video, back when the classes couldn't burst that much at all.

Even though I'm actually comparing condition damage based build to full burst builds, we can see that he does not get fully bursted in less than a sec.

---

To summerize, I think that adding passiv invulns such as the acrobatic 50% health invuln on thief is not the way to go. It actually reduces skill required to play it, and most fun in playing with or against the class. Instead of that, reducing the bursting capacity would be way more interesting. But reducing the burst capacity isn't all, because then you wouldn't be able to kill classes with more sustain. That's why you need to balance the game properly. But at its current state anyway, I don't think that anyone can say that WvW is balanced.

@"Yugz.6925" said:"Dps builds will cap out on damage, and why not supplement it with a little sustain right?Support builds will cap out on healing and boon duration, why not add some damage right?Can you spot the difference? There is none since this forces a meta of 50/50 dps and sustain which only some professions and builds can shine with - others will be left behind in the dust. Basically if you cap out on damage and halfway in sustain, you will always win against someone that's full damage unless they are severly lower in skill. Why would anyone do that to themselves in a competitive mode?"

• You're arguing like I'm willing to destroy stat efficiency past 1k5 power. It is not the case. If I was, then you would be right, classes with an hybridation potential would be way more efficient and then class balance would be kitten up. However, what I would like to change is add a stat scaling that would actually look more or less like the square root function. There would not be a cap to reach, every bit of stat would make you better in that attribute, but at some point, it could be useful to get some other statistics since they have a better theoretical efficiency. You are already admitting that the changes would be done in a unbalanced way.

"Everyone also need to keep in mind with your suggestions that a nerf in one compartment will warrant a nerf in another. We half the crit value? Then we must half condition duration."

• This is just not true. People are complaining about insane bursts, not about damage over time. Condition duration is not such a problem since it can be countered by being able to dispell those conditions.

"Everyone also need to keep in mind with your suggestions that a nerf in one compartment will warrant a nerf in another. We half the crit value? Then we must half condition duration. We cap a max power value at 1560? Then we need to cap a max healing value at 560. Innate healthpools will be more relevant than ever in the meta since it's now free sustain, whatever imbalances there are between professions today would be way more noticable once we remove stat diversity."

• Why would we cap power value at 1560 ? There would be absolutly no power cap, otherwise the game would absolutly be unbalanced since classes that have access to might and DPS buffers would be absolutly broken. What I was thinking of would be that stat efficiency in power would be a 1 ration from 1k to 2k, 0.8 from 2k to 2k5, 0.6 from 2k5 to 3k and 0.4 for 3k and more. Here I took the example of a discontinuous function for readability, but it is obviously a continuous function that would be the most interesting. These are random ratios, I haven't really taken time to really think about this in depth and the decrease on efficiency might actually be too hard, but I'm pretty sure that balance devs could actually design something really nice there. Because I truly believe that this isn't that hard to adjust properly.One problem that would appear though is stats added by might stacks. This is why I would also suggest a redesign of this buff : making them add % damage somehow would be way more interesting. Because buffing a player to 750 condition damage+power would then be too efficient for full tank builds, and not efficient enough on damage based players.You are actually saying that this would remove stat diversity, on the contrary. The goal there is to reward people for not getting a gear with a set full of the same stats. Of course, full zerker people would still hit way more than players that would use some toughness and all in their power based build, but it would just be less efficient than it is now.

"You're not asking for slight DR, you're asking for a completely different game that would require a full overhaul of every profession and gamemodes (conquest would not work f.ex), it is the only way anyone would be able to do anything. If you truly believe facing anyone with both of you in celestial gear gives you a better winning chance, then I get your sentiment. But the gw2 I play is all about cooldowns, timing, reflexes and forward thinking, and the only gear choices I need to worry about are full support or full dps, the rest is arbitrary because the game values player skill over raw numbers - and I'd like to keep it that way since it's why I enjoy playing it."

• I sadly feel like you have not really grasped the real purpose of this modification, and I actually believe that you could agree with me. Actually conquest, as you mentionned has a pure stat capping feature : amulets. You might have seen that but the amount of stats you're getting in conquest is way lower than in WvW. This results in having less burst capacity for most classes. The game-mode is actually more enjoyed than WvW "by skilled players" because it's more balanced. But there is something in sPvP that is nowhere close to what WvW offers : having the possibility to theorycraft and mix stats from your gear, which we don't do anymore in WvW.

---

To illustrate what I am saying I just want to link some youtube videos that I have been recently watching. These videos are roaming videos but I think that this feature could also impact deeply zerging (as a matter of fact reducing full healing power builds would reward blasting in water fiels, which actually was a way more interesting, skilled and fun mechanic in zergs).

There is a video of Vaanss, this is a recent video on the berserker elite spec, he's a very good player and we can actually see the current state of roaming, with enormous burst builds such as full damage berserker.

Just take a look at the first fight, I truly don't believe that it's fun for anyone to get oneshotted by a single spell. The counterplay there is possible, "you just have to evade it", but well if you don't evade it, your fight is ended. How enjoyable is that ?

There is a video of Hollts, he's also a very good player and uses the reaper elite spec at its full potential. What I sadly see in this video is that ennemy players can't tank a shroud 4 spell, and he either tank any income of damage : that results who is bursting first.

That being said, it's a wonderful video and it feels very good to see modern roaming make such ones.

Finally I am linking you an old video, back when the classes couldn't burst that much at all.

Even though I'm actually comparing condition damage based build to full burst builds, we can see that he does not get fully bursted in less than a sec.

---

To summerize, I think that adding passiv invulns such as the acrobatic 50% health invuln on thief is not the way to go. It actually reduces skill required to play it, and most fun in playing with or against the class. Instead of that, reducing the bursting capacity would be way more interesting. But reducing the burst capacity isn't all, because then you wouldn't be able to kill classes with more sustain. That's why you need to balance the game properly. But at its current state anyway, I don't think that anyone can say that WvW is balanced.

• If everyone runs a mixed bag of stats instead of extremes the small differences would not matter at all (which makes the celestial vs celestial argument valid)
• If you cap power damage but not condition damage, then going full condi will be more rewarding and possibly become the new meta (as they can more easily supplement with defensive stats without losing dps)
• Your function aims to essentially nerf the stat extremes obtainable today, leaving any other stat combinations inbetween unaffected. Problem is that the ~150 points you would lose on this is quite negligible as it equates to around the value of a rune, and any decent player won't be phased in the least
• Notice what is overpowered in WvW vs sPvP with stat culling. Is there a difference? Because if not the entire idea of diminishing returns fixing every op combination is unfounded
• Yeah we established a long time ago that we both expected a full balance overhaul before this was implemented, and I have actually seen all the videos before. I agree the dmg of some skills are high, but as long as it is a burst and require some setup I am fine with it, the entire point is for the game to tell you "better dodge this next time", and if we nerf bursts it doesn't really matter since we can just spam through it. My second point is if you play a gimmicky build (first 2 are best examples), you can't expect it to be viable. And that's what most people run these days. If you want to see how good builds fare against a oneshot meta, I suggest you look up the old Pro League videos or any ESL tournament - playing full glass meant you were a liability, and still does in the higher levels of play.

If the sPvP crowd is already generally avoiding pure burst builds, then adjusting them for WvW is going to have a null effect on that mode. Burst across the board a bit too extreme and should be toned back a bit, require more build up and reliance on getting to those 20+ stacks of might on self and vulnerability on the target. Require some reliance on setting up a boon strip situation into a burst sequence. Not every fight needs to play out as a giant burst opening into a reset followed by second round of burst, which is pretty much what I see every fight, and either win or lose on that myself. I would like a bit more setup and exchange before the fights accelerate into a mosh pit of death. Feels bad when every fight feels scripted.

None of this matters.

You can't balance a mode people call a PvP mode using PvE stats, gear, and rules.

Until it uses PvP stats and rules (aka Amulet system) they can't hope to balance it (assuming equal number of people per side in clash).

I don't really see the problem. If Anet balance number of people then all people can just run mirror comps and the mode would be balanced. Fun is subjective. Some people really like one-shotting people. Just because some people don't isn't really relevant.

And as for the the comments around not needing to nerf conditions. I would rather see all DoTs deleted from the game than the one shots from rev and ranger.

"Some people really like one-shotting people. Just because some people don't isn't really relevant."

• Yes it is, because oneshotting, even though it can give you the dopamine rush you're looking for, reduces the gameplay time and complexity of both player.

"And as for the the comments around not needing to nerf conditions. I would rather see all DoTs deleted from the game than the one shots from rev and ranger."

• You can't get rid of all condis, that's just a core mechanic to the game. The thing that we actually claim is that condi aren't as problematic as DPS because they are only few condi burst builds. If power gets nerfed, so should condition, but not for the same reasons.

"Fun is subjective."

• Yes it is, but complexity isn't. And complexity in a game develops the player in many interessant ways. Pressing a single button however isn't making GW2 a dopamin supplier. Depends on what you're looking for in a game, yes indeed, but MMOs aren't usually that type of game.

Engaging gameplay involves counterplay, without some on each side of a fight, the gameplay is going to become stale and repetitive. That is what one shot builds do, make the gameplay stale, there is no build up or anticipation in a fight, it is completely one sided.

If you are getting one shot by, or doing so to, an enemy all the time, is that really fun? The gameplay is completely binary, devoid of interaction by either party beyond that initial button mash. The key to any multiplayer game is interactions between the players, all the best games have figured this out, a look at any of the highest viewed games streamed involves player interactions that are nuanced and have build ups. Instant one shots get a few views, but never as much as when players have to make decisions about positioning, timing, and interactions.

Several of the builds existing right now are devoid of interactions from the enemy, many are not even reliant on landing a crowd control mechanism at all. Press this button when red nameplate appears, either win, or disengage and try again in 30 seconds, the general population does not find this interesting. Those who do like that gameplay probably only do when they are piloting it, if they have to face it themselves all the time it is not fun or interesting. I have never seen a gameplay video where someone is walking into a player vs player situation and saying, “Gah I hope I get one shot by the first enemy to see me!” That does not happen.