Why DuoQ Should be Removed for Season 18 and Never Come Back — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why DuoQ Should be Removed for Season 18 and Never Come Back

Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭
edited August 8, 2019 in PVP

Feel free to add and suggest changes to what I was able to come up with. I'm not perfect, and i'm sure even through loads of research, experience, and reasoning i'll probably make at least one mistake, or leave something out. Should be noted that these are just the thoughts of an average Plat2 player as well, so anything I mention about divisions below or above me should be taken with a grain of salt.

DuoQ has changed the game to be less competitive. This is probably the biggest and most destructive thing DuoQ has done to ranked. It’s no longer about just playing the game, because DuoQ injects third-party hurdles that simply wouldn’t exist, or at the very least; wouldn't be as prevalent in SoloQ or TeamQ.

The most noticeable way it has accomplished this is by quarantining the very top% that do DuoQ into one small cumulative safe space. Good players being matched against other good players is a thing of the past, as they’ve come together to create the highest numbers advantage possible to the extent that finding a potential even matchup would not be possible even if the matchmaker wasn’t terribly flawed. Ranked SPvP has devolved into an all around farm as a result.

There has always been golds and silvers farming ranked for the rewards; never at all worried about winning, losing, competition, and now we have a fair chunk of the top% of players farming those golds and silvers with the exact same intentions. The people who get punished the most are people who actually try. Those who sit in the middle or upper-middle of the ranks, or really; anyone who decides to queue for a ranked gamemode with some sort of expectation of fair and competitive matchmaking.

And that’s just the main way DuoQ makes ranked less competitive. There’s ~3 problems that come to mind that just add up:
(1)There’s no cap on how far apart two ranks can queue together, so top players hop on low-rank alts and queue with other top players to avoid decay and keep LB spots with total impunity, all at the expense for the low-mid level players playing at that hour.
(2)Actual players are forced into using methods outside the game itself just to cope, all of which promote not actually playing. No longer can you just queue up. Now you have to check Twitch first to make sure no teamstacking is going on, or follow people you don’t care for just to see when they’re active, or get in the habit of Qdodging every few games to avoid certain DuoQs. Heck, the very concept of going out of your way to find a DuoQ is in itself an exclusive third-party hurdle.
(3)Top rated DuoQs often exploit everything they can about the gamemode. Class switching? They got those. Exploiting the matchmaker? They got you, boo. Almost all these issues are exclusive to DuoQ. With SoloQ you can’t really abuse Class Switching, and matchmaking is less tractable.

People can blame all this on the low population all they want. If the population really is too low to play a competitive gamemode competitively, then DuoQ has to go either way. If SoloQ was barely sustainable, there is absolutely no excuse for DuoQ to exist. Low population is an argument against DuoQ, not for it.

DuoQ also promotes and facilitates wintrading(Match manipulation.) Getting a person or people, alt or alts on the opposite team is leagues easier when you have more control over who gets into your match & team, and guaranteeing one person to your team increases your odds by 2/5ths or 20% of a match on its own. Although, I will say that classic wintrading seems to have fallen off to some extent with DuoQ.

Not because DuoQ has finally solved the age-old issue, but because the means; the game, have both changed. Those 3 issues I just mentioned have replaced classic wintrading, because there’s no real reason to throw or leave a game when you can exploit DuoQ and the rest of ranked’s broken fundamentals and get a BETTER and cheaper turnout. Even when wintrading was at its worst, the winrates weren’t anything like they are now, with a lot of the top 25 carrying 80-90% winrates across multiple alts. I know this is DuoQ’s doing, because winrates like that between multiple alts just wasn’t a thing in SoloQ.

Before anyone says “you can’t blame DuoQ for your losses, get good” as i’ve heard no less than 257 times since I started complaining back before Season 13, i’m not blaming DuoQ for losses. Only the problems i’ve mentioned, which; I think contributes moreso to poor match quality than it does for solely bad losses.

Legends and plat3’s together with silvers and golds, no matter if that’s with or against; results in pretty terrible match quality. If you want to make a new or less-experienced player feel truly insignificant and hopeless, just pair them with or against a DuoQ consisting of the #1 and #2 rated players in the game. The resulting blowout match is going to feel bad for everyone else whether they win or lose in that scenario.

TL;DR There is no way to fix DuoQ or merged queues to accommodate ranked PvP without significant changes to the matchmaker. Changes that everyone knows wouldn’t work, because they’d be waiting in queue for hours, but that just shows that DuoQs really have no place in this game to begin with. DuoQ has ruined the competitive aspect of ranked. I could go on forever, because there’s as many reasons DuoQ shouldn’t exist as there is poorly contrived excuses to try and justify it, but; this is already getting too long. Please, just remove(Not restrict behind some rating threshold) DuoQ for Season 18 and all future seasons.

EDIT(8/7/19): Due to a lot of confusion on the subject, I just want to make it clear that this is not a call to restrict ranked back to SoloQ only. It is purely an argument against DuoQ and any sort of merged queue existing in this game.

Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

<13

Comments

  • stick.7258stick.7258 Member ✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    In a duo queue, the Matchmaker the mmr the highest rated player. It has been like this since season 5. I know many top players, myself included that would just stop if they removed duo, due to how unbearably low the skill in most games are.

    Queued on alt yesterday, 1670 something in eu. I had a mirage camping every beast in Forest, even dying to it once. Me winning 1v2 against Firebrand scourge. Blowing up midfights in 2-5 seconds.

    Duo makes the game bearable for me.

    This is probably what most higher tier duo's think, at least i heard this expressed my multiple players.
    I do wonder if it is the case, cuz of low-pop, that duo quers have higher change of winning. But if this is the case i wonder if it would be fair to give them a small penalty, like split rank points gained from victory between both.

  • @stick.7258 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    In a duo queue, the Matchmaker the mmr the highest rated player. It has been like this since season 5. I know many top players, myself included that would just stop if they removed duo, due to how unbearably low the skill in most games are.

    Queued on alt yesterday, 1670 something in eu. I had a mirage camping every beast in Forest, even dying to it once. Me winning 1v2 against Firebrand scourge. Blowing up midfights in 2-5 seconds.

    Duo makes the game bearable for me.

    This is probably what most higher tier duo's think, at least i heard this expressed my multiple players.
    I do wonder if it is the case, cuz of low-pop, that duo quers have higher change of winning. But if this is the case i wonder if it would be fair to give them a small penalty, like split rank points gained from victory between both.

    Most games already look like +5-10 -15-20. Making it even harder to climb is just ridiculous.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    In a duo queue, the Matchmaker the mmr the highest rated player. It has been like this since season 5. I know many top players, myself included that would just stop if they removed duo, due to how unbearably low the skill in most games are.

    Actually this is just a common myth. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that it only uses the rating of the higher rated player, but there is evidence to suggest an average of the two ratings is used.

    Like, at Plat2 if I DuoQ with a gold 1, I get very little rating from wins with that gold and get smashed with huge rating deductions for losses. Since rating is tied to the other players in your match, it shouldn't be unreasonable to assume they're all a lower average rating. Unless you mean to suggest that single gold 1 player is the cause, but if that's the case; that means they're just being dragged along to essentially punish my team.

    That also begs the question: If there's the potential to gain less/lose more, and the higher rated player's ranking is always used, why would the top player for this season be handicapping themself? https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83854/how-does-top-10-player-appear-in-gold-1-match#latest

    Most games already look like +5-10 -15-20. Making it even harder to climb is just ridiculous.

    If we're going by rating gain/loss alone, SoloQ actually allows for more because the rating of the other players determines that, and there's objectively more rating disparity with DuoQ than without it.

    Queued on alt yesterday, 1670 something in eu. I had a mirage camping every beast in Forest, even dying to it once. Me winning 1v2 against Firebrand scourge. Blowing up midfights in 2-5 seconds.

    Duo makes the game bearable for me.

    Oh yeah, winning 1v2s, blowing up midfights. That sounds tragic. On further consideration, I think I see your point. It's a hard-knock SoloQ life.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • dominik.9721dominik.9721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    Even now with duoq matches are already more gambeling than competitive since the match gets dedicated by your teammates mainly. I can carry as much as I want, if my team fails to win consistently 4v3 while players afk on capped nodes ect. I simply lose.

    With soloq only this situation will become even more extreme, because you get one less carrying player and one more potatoe. Your own performance will then have even less weight.

    Your suggestion would make sense if you would have a higher population where you can implement soloq and teamq but not right now where gold players are in the same match as legend players.

  • @dominik.9721 said:

    Your suggestion would make sense if you would have a higher population where you can implement soloq and teamq but not right now where gold players are in the same match as legend players.

    duo is the thing that stresses mm making that posible, and if this is enought bad puts the two legends in the same team

  • dominik.9721dominik.9721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @megilandil.7506 said:

    @dominik.9721 said:

    Your suggestion would make sense if you would have a higher population where you can implement soloq and teamq but not right now where gold players are in the same match as legend players.

    duo is the thing that stresses mm making that posible, and if this is enought bad puts the two legends in the same team

    No it does not, since the highest raiting of the duo is taken. So it doesn't matter if you are solo with 1900 raiting, duo with 1900 and 1900 raiting or duo with 1900 and 1100 raiting - it counts in all three cases as 1900 which will lead to the fact that the rest of the team most likely will be filled with golds to reach an equivalent average 1600~ raiting team, depending on the opponent team.

    Or what was your point?

  • @dominik.9721 said:

    @megilandil.7506 said:

    @dominik.9721 said:

    Your suggestion would make sense if you would have a higher population where you can implement soloq and teamq but not right now where gold players are in the same match as legend players.

    duo is the thing that stresses mm making that posible, and if this is enought bad puts the two legends in the same team

    No it does not, since the highest raiting of the duo is taken. So it doesn't matter if you are solo with 1900 raiting, duo with 1900 and 1900 raiting or duo with 1900 and 1100 raiting - it counts in all three cases as 1900 which will lead to the fact that the rest of the team most likely will be filled with golds to reach an equivalent average 1600~ raiting team, depending on the opponent team.

    Or what was your point?

    first: f not changed this season, last time a dev said somethiong about said that duo not takes the high rank, takes the average.
    Second: multiple top spots are ocupied by alts of top players; less "real" top players that can queue at the same time
    third: if not much top players queuing at the same moment game have to search players from low platinum, high gold, med gold.... etc
    fourth: if the two players are in a duo and mm can find or dont want to find a same level duo, the mm will idealy try to put the top duo with the lowest palyers vs the average team, and at this moment it depends on the hard carriing of the top duo vs the average players

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭

    Many people believe solo queue means more Match manipulation. Without being able to play the system as a duo, winning becomes much harder and people then must resort to straight up match manipulation to win sometimes.

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭

    @bluri.2653 said:
    If anything its a myth soloq increases the match quality LOL

    Why you still checking forums when you have WoW xs

  • NotoriousNaru.1705NotoriousNaru.1705 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    No thanks no one wants ranked to be even more of a clown fiesta than it already is. If you want to solo so bad just do it but stop trying to use the few outlier matches that me and the other top players have out of 100s of games we play to justify duo making the game 'less competitive' that was the biggest stretch ever and insanely misinformed. There is a large group of players in the pvp scene that duo q only and probably would stop playing if they couldn't duo and had to deal with 4 pugs every match. Ben already mentioned more afking/griefing/throwing happens when its solo. Solo means 1 extra player to carry and 1 less competent player in most matches. Dropping match quality drastically is always bad and if there is no coordination to win and just people walking out of spawn to either stumble on a win or get farmed off a perma stagger then ranked just goes back to the stone ages. If you are upset duos are farming you try to learn and improve because those players get on comms coordinate opener strats, recovery strats, snowballs, and kills, and comp switches to accommodate the match(so if they are putting this much effort into winning why punish them for it when most people just half afk walk out of spawn and just run around till game is over??). Taking that away I know a lot of people who would no longer find enjoyment in ranked and will go back to either memeing on dumb kitten solo(causing more griefing/unnecessary throws because no one cares) if theyre bored and ultimately quit ranked. This isn't speculation, all of this HAS happened when anet tried solo and it was one of the worst experiences ever and it is why it won't happen again so you can write your long misinformed paragraphs and riling up the people who aren't fully aware by trying to seem sympathetic to golds who run into legend duos but what you leave out is the fact that those matches are outliers and only a few happen out of the 100s of games legend players play.

  • Ouk.5914Ouk.5914 Member ✭✭

    kitten that if im going back to solo Q season i better not see any Core specs in my games that are looking to get carried. Hell kitten no lmfao, Matter fact they better change the Win/Lose Rating gain/lost if they want to Solo Q to be a thing again.

    It's already hard as kitten to carry games on a necro imagine with out a duo to help out lol or Imagine a season with no duo again and having win trading happen again lmaoooo. Duo Q safer then Solo Q for a lot of reasons my guy and the sooner you stop complaining or making these insane post with horrible suggestions you'll understand why. The game lacks good players on Na because everyone pretty much expected to either get carried or given an easier chance to win. If your saying solo Q gives you a better chance of winning then off the bat im gonna assume you just want to be placed higher on the LB in the easiest way possible.

    Want to be higher rating? Guess what you can do! Study Old Esl Games, Follow a Few good Streamers, Learn the No teleport spots, and Learn the match ups that are good and bad for you to take. Once you get At least half that done you can start learning rotations and Target focus! Those small little tips would legit help you reach high p2-p3 with no issues at all.

    But please enough with trying to make this game mode easier/a joke then what it already is. I'm tired of casuals or player unable to make some sort of effort to get better or try to compete against higher tier players. When I see some of the best players in the game in a match i try to shut them down and help carry the team to get that W instead of complaining or making insane comments as to why Match making is so "unfair".

  • IMO, there should be soloQ and teamQ with only 5-man teams allowed. As Anet is introducing 2v2 maps, this should be only for duoQs. So who wants to play with friend(s), can play duoQ or teamQ or AT. Soloqueuers will not complain on premade duo or team ganking, and in my view there will be less win trading.

    With low population queue time will always be a pain. So if you choose a queue with low population, it is your own choice.

    Rytlock Brimstone: So we find the archon, take him out, then use Kas's "imposter" trick to take his place, right?
    Lady Kasmeer Meade: It's not a trick. Mesmers don't do "tricks"—we utilize illusion.
    Rytlock Brimstone: Yeah, yeah. You guys are worse than elementalists.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ngl i didnt really read your points, they could be solid, they could be not, but i generally find something for fun when i can do it with a friend or 4.

    Not to trash your arguement or anything just my opinion of duo queues.

  • I hate duo queuing because if i mess up it'll just make my duo mad at me

  • Duo queuing was put in place to prevent premades from happening. It’s likely not going to be removed and if it is then it will be for multiple match types in pvp ranked instead of just 5v5

  • romano.8170romano.8170 Member ✭✭

    Duo Q > Solo Q

    Insert a random accomplishment that nobody cares about here
    Hi I'm important

  • @GoldenPants.1870 said:
    I disagree, I am a silver 3 player and I often duo queue with my gold 1 and 2 friends, duo queue is the only thing that makes rankes pvp fun, that you are able to play with your friends in a competetive enviroment.

    I feel you. This is an MMO, and you should be able to play competitively with friends. The problem is, that DuoQing in low ranks right now only makes you a prime target for the Legendary DuoQs, whether you're being placed with or against them to try and compensate for the large skill disparity. They make way less than a whole number% of the population. When they stack together there is next to no chance of that DuoQ ever being mirrored properly, and they know it. They thrive off of it.

    DuoQ doesn't exist to let you play competitively with friends. It's there to trick lower ranks into losing with their friends, and for the higher ranks to exploit. I for one think DuoQ was absolutely fine; rare as it was, when it was locked behind 1600 rating, but if a higher ranked player was to call that unfair, they wouldn't be wrong.

    Generally I think the better way to play competitive with friends is along the lines of what @Deadly Moonshiner.1354 and @Twilight Tempest.7584 mentioned to answer your, @zealex.9410 , and @Snellibee.2761 's questions.

    Split TeamQ or even a 2v2 Arena with its own separate leaderboard ensures you're only as weak as the people you decide to queue with, and it's fair by not sniping soloQ players who might be trying to learn the game, or just don't want to go through the hassle of finding someone else of similar ranking to play this game with. Split TeamQ especially is naturally very competitive, and being able to play with 4 other friends rather than just 1 other makes the game even more social. If people think the population is too low, and queue times would be too long drop the team size to 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4. We could be playing ranked with as many friends as we want essentially, but we're limited to just 1 other, to be thrown together into a group of 8 randoms of vastly different skill levels.

    Whatever arena we get really doesn't matter, so long as the option to queue with friends is fair and competitive.

    If anyone isn't on board with those options, I have to ask; why merged queue? I really can't see the sense in that level of self-limitation, unless you unabashedly want to stomp noobs instead of being matched with players of similar skill rating which; mind you, is the entire reason ranked or skill-based matchmaking exists in any competitive game really.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    Get rid of duo queue please. We've had enough of this mess. It has already proven to contribute to population decline. Many players got fed up of it and stopped playing seasons seriously as they know top players will abuse duo queue.

  • @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    **There is a large group of players in the pvp scene that duo q only and probably would stop playing if they couldn't duo **
    **Taking that away I know a lot of people who would no longer find enjoyment in ranked and will go back to either memeing on dumb kitten solo(causing more griefing/unnecessary throws because no one cares) if theyre bored and ultimately quit ranked. This isn't speculation, all of this HAS happened when anet tried solo **

    Then it could be restricted behind a rating threshold once again. Lower rated DuoQ's aren't the problem, and the higher rated DuoQs that Duo purely for the numbers advantage don't even cumulatively make up a whole number % of the population. If merged queues are replaced with split queues, everyone gets what they want anyway; because that wouldn't limit your ability to queue with friends, it'd only take away your power to stomp uncoordinated lower ranked players, and; if that's an issue for you, then miss me with that:

    If you are upset duos are farming you try to learn and improve because those players get on comms coordinate opener strats, recovery strats, snowballs, and kills, and comp switches to accommodate the match

    "get good" nonsense. Getting good is a gradual process based on match quality, and it's nearly impossible for the average or lower rated player to do when they're constantly matched against people of wildly different skill levels.

    To which, SoloQ can do better than DuoQ matchmaking wise. Ben mentioned so back in this thread a few times: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/80419/what-is-up-with-the-matchmaker/p1

    Ben already mentioned more afking/griefing/throwing happens when its solo.

    Like I said in my original post, classic wintrading/match manipulation is near-extinct with the modern Legendary DuoQ. There's no reason for anyone to expend the effort when you can just DuoQ and get even better results. So yes, i'd say compared to today SoloQ had more, but the comparison isn't the most fair; seeing how the game has changed.

    When DuoQ first came back though, MM was still rampant. Remember in Season 13 when; for a while, a DuoQ partner could leave a game and their team would lose 0 rating? That worked SUPER well with the fact that there's no cap on how far apart two ratings can queue together. I remember people being like "Oh my gosh, DuoQ is really working! Ratings have increased across the board!" When in reality, that was little more than inflation.

    And then in those opening seasons, if someone was going to throw a game on purpose; like I mentioned in my OP, was leagues easier when you had more control over who was getting into a match and on what team.

    misinformed paragraphs and riling up the people who aren't fully aware by trying to seem sympathetic to golds who run into legend duos but what you leave out is the fact that those matches are outliers and only a few happen out of the 100s of games legend players play.

    It all comes from personal experience, and sources here on the forums. I could link you to some interesting reads if you like. That being said, with the scope of the threads complaining about it, I definitely wouldn't call it the result of a few outliers. I mean, 2 alone(that I know of) trace back to you specifically, and that's people who actually took the time to take evidence from the match and bring it back here to the forums to complain. The law of averages is a bit fallacious, so take this with yet another grain of salt; but, i'm sure there's been way more instances than only what's been documented.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So, why are the duo q supporters against full teams again?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If duo que is restricted above 1600 again, I'm quitting the game on the spot. I know at least a dozen of other good players that will as well.

    I refuse to play this game if it punishes me for being a good player and prevents me from playing with friends in my preferred gamemode. Solo que was a kitten show. There was more wintrading, more afking, more griefing, more trolling, more of everything you wouldn't want in a competitive environment.

  • @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    **There is a large group of players in the pvp scene that duo q only and probably would stop playing if they couldn't duo **
    **Taking that away I know a lot of people who would no longer find enjoyment in ranked and will go back to either memeing on dumb kitten solo(causing more griefing/unnecessary throws because no one cares) if theyre bored and ultimately quit ranked. This isn't speculation, all of this HAS happened when anet tried solo **

    Then it could be restricted behind a rating threshold once again. Lower rated DuoQ's aren't the problem, and the higher rated DuoQs that Duo purely for the numbers advantage don't even cumulatively make up a whole number % of the population. If merged queues are replaced with split queues, everyone gets what they want anyway; because that wouldn't limit your ability to queue with friends, it'd only take away your power to stomp uncoordinated lower ranked players, and; if that's an issue for you, then miss me with that:

    If you are upset duos are farming you try to learn and improve because those players get on comms coordinate opener strats, recovery strats, snowballs, and kills, and comp switches to accommodate the match

    "get good" nonsense. Getting good is a gradual process based on match quality, and it's nearly impossible for the average or lower rated player to do when they're constantly matched against people of wildly different skill levels.

    To which, SoloQ can do better than DuoQ matchmaking wise. Ben mentioned so back in this thread a few times: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/80419/what-is-up-with-the-matchmaker/p1

    Ben already mentioned more afking/griefing/throwing happens when its solo.

    Like I said in my original post, classic wintrading/match manipulation is near-extinct with the modern Legendary DuoQ. There's no reason for anyone to expend the effort when you can just DuoQ and get even better results. So yes, i'd say compared to today SoloQ had more, but the comparison isn't the most fair; seeing how the game has changed.

    When DuoQ first came back though, MM was still rampant. Remember in Season 13 when; for a while, a DuoQ partner could leave a game and their team would lose 0 rating? That worked SUPER well with the fact that there's no cap on how far apart two ratings can queue together. I remember people being like "Oh my gosh, DuoQ is really working! Ratings have increased across the board!" When in reality, that was little more than inflation.

    And then in those opening seasons, if someone was going to throw a game on purpose; like I mentioned in my OP, was leagues easier when you had more control over who was getting into a match and on what team.

    misinformed paragraphs and riling up the people who aren't fully aware by trying to seem sympathetic to golds who run into legend duos but what you leave out is the fact that those matches are outliers and only a few happen out of the 100s of games legend players play.

    It all comes from personal experience, and sources here on the forums. I could link you to some interesting reads if you like. That being said, with the scope of the threads complaining about it, I definitely wouldn't call it the result of a few outliers. I mean, 2 alone(that I know of) trace back to you specifically, and that's people who actually took the time to take evidence from the match and bring it back here to the forums to complain. The law of averages is a bit fallacious, so take this with yet another grain of salt; but, i'm sure there's been way more instances than only what's been documented.

    You just don't get it, and I don't think you will. Match quality dropping hard is always bad for any competitive environment where winning matters.This game is meant to be played in a coordinated fashion.I am going to say this again one last time: If every match is 5 pugs running straight in to die or somehow stumble on a win, then respawn and just run wherever until the game ends people who are gold 2+ will quit. If there is nothing to strive for and everyone is qing ranked to meme(exactly what happened last solo season) then winning no longer matters and competition will die. You don't even realize how ridiculous your argument is. You want to change the entire structure of a competitive mode that is proven to work BETTER than what you're suggesting because 3 people made a post crying about being mismatched? Grow up dude thousands of matches happen daily and you are using fallacies to get an emotional reaction out of people in the forums to go back to a system that killed ranked when it was in place. We all know how hard it is for anet to revert back on changes they make, and they did with their solo q decision, ask yourself why.

  • @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    You just don't get it, and I don't think you will. Match quality dropping hard is always bad for any competitive environment where winning matters.This game is meant to be played in a coordinated fashion.I am going to say this again one last time: If every match is 5 pugs running straight in to die or somehow stumble on a win, then respawn and just run wherever until the game ends people who are gold 2+ will quit. If there is nothing to strive for and everyone is qing ranked to meme(exactly what happened last solo season) then winning no longer matters and competition will die. You don't even realize how ridiculous your argument is. You want to change the entire structure of a competitive mode that is proven to work BETTER than what you're suggesting because 3 people made a post crying about being mismatched? Grow up dude thousands of matches happen daily and you are using fallacies to get an emotional reaction out of people in the forums to go back to a system that killed ranked when it was in place. We all know how hard it is for anet to revert back on changes they make, and they did with their solo q decision, ask yourself why.

    Personally I don't think the game is about only winning. Winning means nothing if there's no competition, and it only feels good if it comes with a challenge. Surely there's at least one player other than myself above gold2 who can appreciate playing competitive competitively rather than the easiest way possible.

    Saying DuoQ is proven to work better is a bit dishonest, because it's already been restricted once before, and people continue to complain about it now that it's still here.

    I'm not saying that ranked should be SoloQ only either, as i've said before 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, TeamQ are all ways to play competitively with friends that guarantee similar coordination that can't exist in merged queues. There is no feasible excuse as to why uncapped merged queues should exist in this game unless you want to farm uncoordinated, low-rated players. In the low population, with the 5v5 gamemode limited by a 2-person queue we have now, there will always be at least 2 players in every match that will be at an inherent disadvantage; though, that's a perfect world scenario, and there's usually more than that every match. Do you think getting rolled or carried by two people like you, hundreds of rating above their own satisfies their want for competition? Do you think that's healthy, keeping the population growing rather than draining? Do YOU consider that competition?

    That being said, would split 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, or TeamQ becoming a permanent or rotating split ranked arena with their own separate leaderboards appeal to you, @shadowpass.4236 ? Or does it absolutely have to be as it is now, no exceptions?

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Multicolorhipster.9751

    Don't get me wrong, I would love 1v1s and 4v4s and everything in between. However, I believe that new gamemodes require the population to be higher otherwise que times would be abysmal.

    Currently, duo que is better than solo que for ranked. Solo que is not only boring, but it's also extraordinarily frustrating. I play games to compete and have fun. If I wanted to play alone, I wouldn't be playing an MMO.

    Naru is correct. PvP in GW2 was meant to be played coordinated. It all started going downhill after Anet removed team que. This decision started a downwards spiral as nearly every single PvP guild in the game (ya know, those communities that help bring in and retain players) died on the spot. In fact, whatever handful of guilds that were left suffered heavily when it became solo que only above 1600.

    For example, my all ranger guild of 250+ (mostly PvPers) lost nearly 150 people the week following the patch because we could no longer play ranked together.

    If you want the gamemode to stay alive, alienating the good players is not the way to do it. Neither is forcing people to play solo in an online, team-based gamemode. Do you think those loners are going to bring their friends into the game? What would be the point? They wouldn't even be able to play together.

  • yanniell.1236yanniell.1236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    **There is a large group of players in the pvp scene that duo q only and probably would stop playing if they couldn't duo **
    **Taking that away I know a lot of people who would no longer find enjoyment in ranked and will go back to either memeing on dumb kitten solo(causing more griefing/unnecessary throws because no one cares) if theyre bored and ultimately quit ranked. This isn't speculation, all of this HAS happened when anet tried solo **

    Then it could be restricted behind a rating threshold once again. Lower rated DuoQ's aren't the problem, and the higher rated DuoQs that Duo purely for the numbers advantage don't even cumulatively make up a whole number % of the population. If merged queues are replaced with split queues, everyone gets what they want anyway; because that wouldn't limit your ability to queue with friends, it'd only take away your power to stomp uncoordinated lower ranked players, and; if that's an issue for you, then miss me with that:

    If you are upset duos are farming you try to learn and improve because those players get on comms coordinate opener strats, recovery strats, snowballs, and kills, and comp switches to accommodate the match

    "get good" nonsense. Getting good is a gradual process based on match quality, and it's nearly impossible for the average or lower rated player to do when they're constantly matched against people of wildly different skill levels.

    To which, SoloQ can do better than DuoQ matchmaking wise. Ben mentioned so back in this thread a few times: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/80419/what-is-up-with-the-matchmaker/p1

    Ben already mentioned more afking/griefing/throwing happens when its solo.

    Like I said in my original post, classic wintrading/match manipulation is near-extinct with the modern Legendary DuoQ. There's no reason for anyone to expend the effort when you can just DuoQ and get even better results. So yes, i'd say compared to today SoloQ had more, but the comparison isn't the most fair; seeing how the game has changed.

    When DuoQ first came back though, MM was still rampant. Remember in Season 13 when; for a while, a DuoQ partner could leave a game and their team would lose 0 rating? That worked SUPER well with the fact that there's no cap on how far apart two ratings can queue together. I remember people being like "Oh my gosh, DuoQ is really working! Ratings have increased across the board!" When in reality, that was little more than inflation.

    And then in those opening seasons, if someone was going to throw a game on purpose; like I mentioned in my OP, was leagues easier when you had more control over who was getting into a match and on what team.

    misinformed paragraphs and riling up the people who aren't fully aware by trying to seem sympathetic to golds who run into legend duos but what you leave out is the fact that those matches are outliers and only a few happen out of the 100s of games legend players play.

    It all comes from personal experience, and sources here on the forums. I could link you to some interesting reads if you like. That being said, with the scope of the threads complaining about it, I definitely wouldn't call it the result of a few outliers. I mean, 2 alone(that I know of) trace back to you specifically, and that's people who actually took the time to take evidence from the match and bring it back here to the forums to complain. The law of averages is a bit fallacious, so take this with yet another grain of salt; but, i'm sure there's been way more instances than only what's been documented.

    You just don't get it, and I don't think you will. Match quality dropping hard is always bad for any competitive environment where winning matters.This game is meant to be played in a coordinated fashion.I am going to say this again one last time: If every match is 5 pugs running straight in to die or somehow stumble on a win, then respawn and just run wherever until the game ends people who are gold 2+ will quit. If there is nothing to strive for and everyone is qing ranked to meme(exactly what happened last solo season) then winning no longer matters and competition will die. You don't even realize how ridiculous your argument is. You want to change the entire structure of a competitive mode that is proven to work BETTER than what you're suggesting because 3 people made a post crying about being mismatched? Grow up dude thousands of matches happen daily and you are using fallacies to get an emotional reaction out of people in the forums to go back to a system that killed ranked when it was in place. We all know how hard it is for anet to revert back on changes they make, and they did with their solo q decision, ask yourself why.

    What match quality are you even rumbling about? If people did not know any better, they would read your comment and think that ranked queue is thriving with duo queuers everywhere, when the reality is that a really low percentage of the PvP playerbase duo queue. And when you say "the matches are better" it translates to "I'm stomping 5 solo players mostly of the time and rarely facing another duo queue, even rarer another duo queue of similar level".

    Seriously. I laughed my kitten out! "Matches are better!" when 95% of the time you are facing 5 solo players on the other team. This is just LOL.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:
    If anything its a myth soloq increases the match quality LOL

    It's truth, not myth.

    To be a myth would require some degree of mystery, or lack of closure. That's why the whole "the matchmaker only uses the rating of the highest rated player in a duo" myth, is a myth. There's been no comment by Arenanet(As far as I know, hmu if you find something that suggests otherwise) and there exists nothing in the matchmaking algorithm that would suggest this is true. Therefore it's all conjecture and myth.

    SoloQ increasing match quality is truth, because that's something Arenanet actually confirmed multiple times, one example being when they removed DuoQ the first time.

    Still, it feels kind of dirty to put SoloQ up on a pedestal. I don't want to give off the impression that SoloQ is perfect, because it's not. It's just the infinitely better option to DuoQ.

    The only reason I wanted duo queue back in the game was because the top players kept telling me that win trading didn't exist below plat (even though it did).
    So I didn't mind advocating to open the flood doors on them too (and now look at all the complaining about it).
    So now we have reached the extreme levels that effects everyone and not just mid ranks, maybe Anet will have to chose between solo only for all ranks (which goes against thier vision of playing with friends) or to simply just allow team queue again.

    Personally I'd prefer it if they just allowed team queue till plat 1 then after that it can be solo queue.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Ultima.8673Ultima.8673 Member ✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    remove duoqueu just solo and 5 man queue

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    1,2,3 and 4 seasons were the best. While since season 5 it's getting worse. Just let people play solo, duo, trio, 4 and 5 man.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    The entire OP is based on nonsense. But people believe it because they refuse to admit they lose because they're bad.

    Face the facts:

    • People will match manipulate no matter what the system is; they did it when it was solo queue above 1600. Why pretend like it won't happen again.
    • The game was far more fun when there was actual teamwork happening because of team queue. Back in core, we had a solo and team (1-5player) queue. The solo queue died out because it a was kitten-shoot who would win with piles of toxic players and almost no teamwork. It's mind-boggling why we're trying to do that again.
    • If you allowed full team queue, maybe people could actually stand up against the legendary duo queues late at night making it harder to match manipulate! And if you have a full team of 5, there's no one to sabotage you!

    Restricting competitive PvP in a team-based game has already done enough damage. Restricting it even more will completely kill it (though unabated power creep has accomplished most of that already).

    You're one of the very few people here who remember it the way I did.
    Mixed queue was great. Solo queue was bad and it was always better to queue under team queue even if you're alone. (Because a 4 man premade would carry you LOL jokes I did it for extra tokens)

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I want team queue. MOAR frenz!!!!!!

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    You just don't get it, and I don't think you will. Match quality dropping hard is always bad for any competitive environment where winning matters.This game is meant to be played in a coordinated fashion.I am going to say this again one last time: If every match is 5 pugs running straight in to die or somehow stumble on a win, then respawn and just run wherever until the game ends people who are gold 2+ will quit. If there is nothing to strive for and everyone is qing ranked to meme(exactly what happened last solo season) then winning no longer matters and competition will die. You don't even realize how ridiculous your argument is. You want to change the entire structure of a competitive mode that is proven to work BETTER than what you're suggesting because 3 people made a post crying about being mismatched? Grow up dude thousands of matches happen daily and you are using fallacies to get an emotional reaction out of people in the forums to go back to a system that killed ranked when it was in place. We all know how hard it is for anet to revert back on changes they make, and they did with their solo q decision, ask yourself why.

    Personally I don't think the game is about only winning. Winning means nothing if there's no competition, and it only feels good if it comes with a challenge. Surely there's at least one player other than myself above gold2 who can appreciate playing competitive competitively rather than the easiest way possible.

    Saying DuoQ is proven to work better is a bit dishonest, because it's already been restricted once before, and people continue to complain about it now that it's still here.

    I'm not saying that ranked should be SoloQ only either, as i've said before 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, TeamQ are all ways to play competitively with friends that guarantee similar coordination that can't exist in merged queues. There is no feasible excuse as to why uncapped merged queues should exist in this game unless you want to farm uncoordinated, low-rated players. In the low population, with the 5v5 gamemode limited by a 2-person queue we have now, there will always be at least 2 players in every match that will be at an inherent disadvantage; though, that's a perfect world scenario, and there's usually more than that every match. Do you think getting rolled or carried by two people like you, hundreds of rating above their own satisfies their want for competition? Do you think that's healthy, keeping the population growing rather than draining? Do YOU consider that competition?

    That being said, would split 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, or TeamQ becoming a permanent or rotating split ranked arena with their own separate leaderboards appeal to you, @shadowpass.4236 ? Or does it absolutely have to be as it is now, no exceptions?

    Sure I don't mind team queue but look at all the other comments of vet players talking about how it was back when team q/solo q were a thing. Team q was great and solo qs sucked. Even those playing solo ended up going to the team q. Know why? Because of exactly what I tried to tell you and you failed to understand: match quality. The way I see it is if they can create that system again go for it BUT if they can't the ONLY option absolutely CANNOT be solo only because those who do care about winning and competing will leave and that is bad for everyone and I dont mean just legend players i mean majority of plat players and some of gold too.

    I'm giving you valid reasons as to why solo is objectively worse. All you're giving me is how the plat 2-3+ players are bad and cheat but what you fail to realize is thats going to happen no matter what, infact more griefing will happen in solo. You mentioned legend duos dodging each other for easier games but based on your logic wouldn't that be worse when legend/plat mix teams dodge each other and now they are farming those same low rated players but now its 100% of the time rather than carrying some of them occasionally? I just don't see your point. You want both qs back but if you do some research you will come to realize everyone will flock to team q, even solo players.

  • romano.8170romano.8170 Member ✭✭

    You know most you guys could actually just do this weird thing and learn how the game actually works instead of constantly complaining on here. Pinning your own misplay and misrotations on matchmaking and every other factor other than yourself is exactly how you stagnate as a player and never ever improve.

    Insert a random accomplishment that nobody cares about here
    Hi I'm important

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Don't get me wrong, I would love 1v1s and 4v4s and everything in between. However, I believe that new gamemodes require the population to be higher otherwise que times would be abysmal.

    Currently, duo que is better than solo que for ranked. Solo que is not only boring, but it's also extraordinarily frustrating. I play games to compete and have fun. If I wanted to play alone, I wouldn't be playing an MMO.

    Naru is correct. PvP in GW2 was meant to be played coordinated. It all started going downhill after Anet removed team que. This decision started a downwards spiral as nearly every single PvP guild in the game (ya know, those communities that help bring in and retain players) died on the spot. In fact, whatever handful of guilds that were left suffered heavily when it became solo que only above 1600.

    If you want the gamemode to stay alive, alienating the good players is not the way to do it. Neither is forcing people to play solo in an online, team-based gamemode. Do you think those loners are going to bring their friends into the game? What would be the point? They wouldn't even be able to play together.

    I totally agree there tbh, and i'm not asking and I never for ranked to be restricted to SoloQ only. Coordination encourages competition, merged queues don't encourage coordination; because coordination is hardly necessary when you're matched with people several divisions below you.

    Really, the argument is solely against merged queues. Coordination is more encouraged when everyone is given the chance to play at that same level of coordination, and to pick who they queue with. In a 5v5 gamemode, DuoQ doesn't present that chance.

    Again, low population is an argument against merged queues, not for them. Waiting longer in queue should be expected when you queue at the very highest possible level, and it's worth it if the match is more fair, and you get to play with 4 more friends.

    Plus, the actual effect split TeamQ would have on queue times is unknown; because it's been gone for a long while. To write it off as "the population is too low, so don't bother" is rather close-minded and self-limiting. How do you go about valuing quantity over quality and not get called out for farming?

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • @Exedore.6320 said:
    The entire OP is based on nonsense. But people believe it because they refuse to admit they lose because they're bad.

    Face the facts:

    • People will match manipulate no matter what the system is; they did it when it was solo queue above 1600. Why pretend like it won't happen again.
    • The game was far more fun when there was actual teamwork happening because of team queue. Back in core, we had a solo and team (1-5player) queue. The solo queue died out because it a was kitten-shoot who would win with piles of toxic players and almost no teamwork. It's mind-boggling why we're trying to do that again.
    • If you allowed full team queue, maybe people could actually stand up against the legendary duo queues late at night making it harder to match manipulate! And if you have a full team of 5, there's no one to sabotage you!

    Restricting competitive PvP in a team-based game has already done enough damage. Restricting it even more will completely kill it (though unabated power creep has accomplished most of that already).

    My OP pretty much covers everything you've said here.

    SoloQ has its fair share of wintrading, but the leaderboards never looked as disgusting as they do right now.

    TeamQ, and team-based gameplay in general is something i'm all for. My argument only refers to merged queues because of the arbitrary restrictions they impose on how many friends you can queue with, and the fact that everyone isn't allowed to experience and learn the game that way despite being thrown into matches with people that can.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Don't get me wrong, I would love 1v1s and 4v4s and everything in between. However, I believe that new gamemodes require the population to be higher otherwise que times would be abysmal.

    Currently, duo que is better than solo que for ranked. Solo que is not only boring, but it's also extraordinarily frustrating. I play games to compete and have fun. If I wanted to play alone, I wouldn't be playing an MMO.

    Naru is correct. PvP in GW2 was meant to be played coordinated. It all started going downhill after Anet removed team que. This decision started a downwards spiral as nearly every single PvP guild in the game (ya know, those communities that help bring in and retain players) died on the spot. In fact, whatever handful of guilds that were left suffered heavily when it became solo que only above 1600.

    If you want the gamemode to stay alive, alienating the good players is not the way to do it. Neither is forcing people to play solo in an online, team-based gamemode. Do you think those loners are going to bring their friends into the game? What would be the point? They wouldn't even be able to play together.

    I totally agree there tbh, and i'm not asking and I never for ranked to be restricted to SoloQ only. Coordination encourages competition, merged queues don't encourage coordination; because coordination is hardly necessary when you're matched with people several divisions below you.

    Really, the argument is solely against merged queues. Coordination is more encouraged when everyone is given the chance to play at that same level of coordination, and to pick who they queue with. In a 5v5 gamemode, DuoQ doesn't present that chance.

    Again, low population is an argument against merged queues, not for them. Waiting longer in queue should be expected when you queue at the very highest possible level, and it's worth it if the match is more fair, and you get to play with 4 more friends.

    Plus, the actual effect split TeamQ would have on queue times is unknown; because it's been gone for a long while. To write it off as "the population is too low, so don't bother" is rather close-minded and self-limiting. How do you go about valuing quantity over quality and not get called out for farming?

    I'm not one to write off new gamemodes. I'd love to see BR in GW2. However, the population needs to be higher or splitting the population between modes is just going to make longer que times for everyone + an even higher rating difference between players.

    However, if Anet finds that adding these new gamemodes will breathe new life into the game, then I'm all for it.

    Variety is good.

  • @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    Sure I don't mind team queue but look at all the other comments of vet players talking about how it was back when team q/solo q were a thing. Team q was great and solo qs sucked. Even those playing solo ended up going to the team q. Know why? Because of exactly what I tried to tell you and you failed to understand: match quality. The way I see it is if they can create that system again go for it BUT if they can't the ONLY option absolutely CANNOT be solo only because those who do care about winning and competing will leave and that is bad for everyone and I dont mean just legend players i mean majority of plat players and some of gold too.

    I'm giving you valid reasons as to why solo is objectively worse. All you're giving me is how the plat 2-3+ players are bad and cheat but what you fail to realize is thats going to happen no matter what, infact more griefing will happen in solo. You mentioned legend duos dodging each other for easier games but based on your logic wouldn't that be worse when legend/plat mix teams dodge each other and now they are farming those same low rated players but now its 100% of the time rather than carrying some of them occasionally? I just don't see your point. You want both qs back but if you do some research you will come to realize everyone will flock to team q, even solo players.

    Then SoloQ dies, I guess? If TeamQ is in your opinion, the better way to queue; people migrating over from Solos would be nothing but a good thing. Just having the option to go back and forth is important, because sometimes people don't want to LFG, or they don't have the team they normally play with available, so they SoloQ. Really, there's reason to play both gamemodes, and even if all this speculation proves to be right, SoloQ falling out of favor in place of TeamQ in a team-based game isn't exactly a bad thing. No matter which option people choose to favor, they at least have the option to be matched with similarly coordinated players. Merged queues take away that choice.

    Anyway, I played between Season 9 and now, and like I said in the OP the means for wintrading have changed. In my opinion, it's much worse now than it was with SoloQ. With SoloQ the matchmaking is less tractable. It's harder to get two people on the same team, who don't want to be on the same team, and that's just a fact; basic math.

    You look at the LBs now and you have multiple alts with upwards of 80% winrates. It wasn't like that in SoloQ, not even close. So you can tell me all you want really, that SoloQ will be worse. I'm more inclined to go by the results I physically witness, than than the word of the "scissors to the paper" as someone put it earlier.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

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