Fixing rev build diversity — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Fixing rev build diversity

*disclaimer: I play PvE, PvP and WvW, but I am not a hardcore player

One of the things that’s always bugged me about Revenant is a lack of build diversity. The Revenant has a really unique playstyle, with cool animations and lore-throwbacks, however the lack of weapons and legends available to the class really shoehorns Revenant into a limited set of builds.

I’ve seen a few people suggest that Anet should update core rev and give them new weapons, however, I think it’s safe to assume this is not going to happen. The effort required to design and implement new weapons and legends will only ever go into the rollout of elite specs, and it’s pretty easy to bet on this moving forward.

Instead, what I’m recommending here only involves redesigning current weapons and skills, and only via their numbers and added effects, using the same boons, condis and effects systems that have existed in the game since launch.

In fact, I believe Anet could dramatically increase rev build diversity by simply changing one weapon set, one legend and one traitline.

Anet has shown a remarkable ability to design professions which alter the way you play the game. However, Gw2 has always followed the paradigm of ‘This weapon is a Power weapon, this traitline is a Condi traitline, etc’. Revenant, for all its uniqueness, follows this same pattern, and with its limited pool of weapons and Legends, I would say the Revenant does this to its own detriment.

Instead, what I propose is that core Revenant, without any traitlines slotted, should not apply any damaging conditions at all. All revenant weapons should be by-default power weapons, and Mallyx should by-default apply no damaging conditions.

This is not to say that core revenant should only have a power build, but more on that in a sec.

The power of traits

As we’ve seen with Elite Specializations, traits have the power to dramatically change the way a class plays. Revenants should lean into the trait system, showing players how build-defining the right traits could be.

A great example of my approach here is Abyssal Chill:

‘When you chill a foe, you also apply torment to them’

What if the corruptions traitline had even more skills like this?

  • ‘Apply bleeding when you apply vulnerability’
  • ‘Apply confusion when you apply weakness’
  • ‘Apply burning on critical hit’
  • ‘Apply torment to enemies around you when you use a skill with an energy cost’

If we strip out the Mallyx-specific traits from Corruptions, we’d have the room to add more of these kinds of traits to that line. At that point, we could start Mallyx over as a blank slate. Now, there could be builds with Mallyx as a power legend or as a condi legend.

Looking at swords, we see the same thing could be true for weapons as well. What if there was a trait that applied bleeding when you apply vulnerability? Now revenant sword could either be a power or a condi weapon.

An interesting side-effect of this is that revenant becomes harder to predict up-front in a pvp matchup. Imagine a scenario where you see a Margonite-looking dude wielding a mace, but you still aren’t quite sure if you need to reach for your condi-cleanse until the fighting actually starts.

For a condi revenant, this becomes especially interesting, because if you are applying damaging and non-damaging condis in equal measure, most of the condi cleanse tools in the game might only cleanse the non-damaging conditions.

Now, some of you might be thinking ‘Yeah, rev options suck, but Elite specs make the class playable so whatever’. But, the point here is that Revenant itself is sort of an incomplete idea, and by improving core rev build diversity, we’d also be improving Herald and Renegade build diversity as well.

So, that’s the idea in a nutshell. Make Mallyx and Mace deal direct damage, and overload the Corruptions traitline with traits that convert rev from power-focused to condi-focused.

Because I’m kind of a filthy casual, I’d love to get the opinion of people that have played a lot of Revenant, to see how hard this would be to balance within the current meta. Thanks!

Comments

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭

    as already said, fix kalla, buff jalis/mallys/ventari to get more build diversity

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    Are these changes to Corruption just an example or the actual "fix" itself? I think where we'd really need to start is by taking away the things that make Herald seem like a straight upgrade to core rev...

  • Patc.4975Patc.4975 Member ✭✭

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    Are these changes to Corruption just an example or the actual "fix" itself? I think where we'd really need to start is by taking away the things that make Herald seem like a straight upgrade to core rev...

    Hey Clownmug,

    I definitely agree on Herald feeling like leveled-up Revenant, and that kinda sucks. I was actually thinking of the Corruptions changes as the crux of a fix, but I’m open to other perspectives. I think it would be nice to go from literally 1 condi legend and 2 power legends on core rev to 3 non-healer legends that could work in either the power or condi role, depending on traits

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    With rev Anet did the exact opposite of adding diversity, in almost every step.

    Starting with renegade, Anet adds lame damage multiplyer. Damage too high, Anet nerfs mace damage, ensuring that renegade is the only condi build in PvE. Mallyx does some damage in PvP, Anet changes the primary skill that does damage to a weird functioning CC. And at the end of HoT condi rev was pretty decent in all games modes. It did not need any of this kitten bull kitten. in addition, way back in the day, when Anet nerfed condi intensity across the board for all classes, rev was hit the hardest, by a huge margin. I never understood why.

    Anet consistently refuses to understand why most legends do not work in PvP, and keep making random changes that can only be inspired by a blind folded monkey throwing darts. Mallyx needs CC break that does not cost more than half your energy. It now needs damage too, since embrace the darkness can never work as primary damage In SPvP. Jailis, slow, costs too much energy. If you are not running retribution, it does not provide much sustainability. And if you do, It does not deal much damage. Ventari, the tablet never worked in sPvP and never will. Kalla, the dancing Charr will be be AoEed and CCed, if not both. The F skills do not provide any value in sPvP, except the might. Also, costs so much energy.

    Anet needs 50 patches to make power rev raid/fractal PvE viable. I guess it is hard to tinker with some numbers while testing on a kitten golem, under raid buffs setup. Seriously, how hard can this be?! If I have a damage log I can probably do that without even testing on a kitten golem.

    It is locked. It is not terribly bad in PvE, but should be substantially better. PvP it is dead. Play the Only meta build or GTF-out.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    @Patc.4975 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    Are these changes to Corruption just an example or the actual "fix" itself? I think where we'd really need to start is by taking away the things that make Herald seem like a straight upgrade to core rev...

    Hey Clownmug,

    I definitely agree on Herald feeling like leveled-up Revenant, and that kinda sucks. I was actually thinking of the Corruptions changes as the crux of a fix, but I’m open to other perspectives. I think it would be nice to go from literally 1 condi legend and 2 power legends on core rev to 3 non-healer legends that could work in either the power or condi role, depending on traits

    Ok, I see what you're saying. That's the problem with Herald though, it's already achieved being able to work in a either power or condi roles, and even some healing roles. You can force it into pretty much any rev build and it'll work.

  • Patc.4975Patc.4975 Member ✭✭

    Thanks for all the feedback guys. I guess, give it to me straight, am I way off-base here, or could this idea potentially work?

    I hear ya, there are A LOT of problems with rev right now, but maybe this could be part of the solution?

  • Patc.4975Patc.4975 Member ✭✭

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Patc.4975 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    Are these changes to Corruption just an example or the actual "fix" itself? I think where we'd really need to start is by taking away the things that make Herald seem like a straight upgrade to core rev...

    Hey Clownmug,

    I definitely agree on Herald feeling like leveled-up Revenant, and that kinda sucks. I was actually thinking of the Corruptions changes as the crux of a fix, but I’m open to other perspectives. I think it would be nice to go from literally 1 condi legend and 2 power legends on core rev to 3 non-healer legends that could work in either the power or condi role, depending on traits

    Ok, I see what you're saying. That's the problem with Herald though, it's already achieved being able to work in a either power or condi roles, and even some healing roles. You can force it into pretty much any rev build and it'll work.

    Yeah, jack of all trades, master of all trades.. 🤦‍♂️

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020

    Revenant is a balance mess.

    The problem with Revenant balancing is that their Legends system is a double edged sword.

    They can't buff it too hard without it being broken when yu have access to two of it, and on the other hand they all suck right now because of the same balancing reason.

    No one plays Shiro because it has an "aggressive, assassin playstyle" they play it because it has the best stunbreak of all the Legends with 0 drawbacks, in addition to its numerous buffs.

    No one plays Herald because "Auras are cool, and flip skills are a nice touch" they play it because it has the most powerful healskill in the entire Rev's kit along with the fact yu can stack 25 might in 3 seconds.

    Now imagine if players can customize their Legend hotbar and while having Legend swap mechanic removed?

    Everyone will just run :

    Facet of Light, Riposting Shadows, Facet of Darkness, Phase Traversal, Facet of Chaos.

    And on the flipside, yu wanna run a Condi build?

    Looks like it's gonna be Mallyx-Kalla or nothing!

    Okay so, we "balanced" Legends. Now what?

    Rev's weapons.

    OH NO! IT DOES SO MUCH DAMAGE!

    What is the response? Nerf Legends so that the player can't use Legends as effectively as before to create opportunities to dumpster truck with their OPGG weapon skills

    Biggest culprit for the longest time?

    Offhand Sword 4, Shackling Wave, previously notorious for deleting a player's health from 100 to 0 in one cast.

    Rev is being played as a Thief which doesn't even need to stealth, 25 Might stack immediately, and a very hard hitting skill.

    Wanna guess what they decide to nerf of all the obvious problems I've listed?

    DRUMROLL PLEASE

    Nerf Shiro.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Patc.4975Patc.4975 Member ✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Revenant is a balance mess.

    The problem with Revenant balancing is that their Legends system is a double edged sword.

    They can't buff it too hard without it being broken when yu have access to two of it, and on the other hand they all suck right now because of the same balancing reason.

    No one plays Shiro because it has an "aggressive, assassin playstyle" they play it because it has the best stunbreak of all the Legends with 0 drawbacks, in addition to its numerous buffs.

    No one plays Herald because "Auras are cool, and flip skills are a nice touch" they play it because it has the most powerful healskill in the entire Rev's kit along with the fact yu can stack 25 might in 3 seconds.

    Now imagine if players can customize their Legend hotbar and while having Legend swap mechanic removed?

    Everyone will just run :

    Facet of Light, Riposting Shadows, Facet of Darkness, Phase Traversal, Facet of Chaos.

    And on the flipside, yu wanna run a Condi build?

    Looks like it's gonna be Mallyx-Kalla or nothing!

    Okay so, we "balanced" Legends. Now what?

    Rev's weapons.

    OH NO! IT DOES SO MUCH DAMAGE!

    What is the response? Nerf Legends so that the player can't use Legends as effectively as before to create opportunities to dumpster truck with their OPGG weapon skills

    Biggest culprit for the longest time?

    Offhand Sword 4, Shackling Wave, previously notorious for deleting a player's health from 100 to 0 in one cast.

    Rev is being played as a Thief which doesn't even need to stealth, 25 Might stack immediately, and a very hard hitting skill.

    Wanna guess what they decide to nerf of all the obvious problems I've listed?

    DRUMROLL PLEASE

    Nerf Shiro.

    Yeah, the the difference between the strongest and weakest rev skills seems way, waaay higher than in other classes. I agree, Anet’s current balance ‘strategy’ for rev is just really bad

  • I've spent many hours tweaking gear and traits to come to the conclusion that Revenant makes sense when picking an offensive and defensive legend to use alternatively. I can't say much for PVP since there isn't as much freedom for stat distribution, but in WvW and PvE it seems to make the most out of available energy. I also found that using an offensive and defensive weapon set supplement legends in this way, making the double-edged fact of using legends a whole lot more forgiving (which means everything when it comes to energy consumption).

    Aside from weapon skills being very positional, the only problem I've had is that many traits are actually too good to sacrifice which makes it harder for me to decide which builds I like playing more.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Patc.4975 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Revenant is a balance mess.

    The problem with Revenant balancing is that their Legends system is a double edged sword.

    They can't buff it too hard without it being broken when yu have access to two of it, and on the other hand they all suck right now because of the same balancing reason.

    No one plays Shiro because it has an "aggressive, assassin playstyle" they play it because it has the best stunbreak of all the Legends with 0 drawbacks, in addition to its numerous buffs.

    No one plays Herald because "Auras are cool, and flip skills are a nice touch" they play it because it has the most powerful healskill in the entire Rev's kit along with the fact yu can stack 25 might in 3 seconds.

    Now imagine if players can customize their Legend hotbar and while having Legend swap mechanic removed?

    Everyone will just run :

    Facet of Light, Riposting Shadows, Facet of Darkness, Phase Traversal, Facet of Chaos.

    And on the flipside, yu wanna run a Condi build?

    Looks like it's gonna be Mallyx-Kalla or nothing!

    Okay so, we "balanced" Legends. Now what?

    Rev's weapons.

    OH NO! IT DOES SO MUCH DAMAGE!

    What is the response? Nerf Legends so that the player can't use Legends as effectively as before to create opportunities to dumpster truck with their OPGG weapon skills

    Biggest culprit for the longest time?

    Offhand Sword 4, Shackling Wave, previously notorious for deleting a player's health from 100 to 0 in one cast.

    Rev is being played as a Thief which doesn't even need to stealth, 25 Might stack immediately, and a very hard hitting skill.

    Wanna guess what they decide to nerf of all the obvious problems I've listed?

    DRUMROLL PLEASE

    Nerf Shiro.

    Yeah, the the difference between the strongest and weakest rev skills seems way, waaay higher than in other classes. I agree, Anet’s current balance ‘strategy’ for rev is just really bad

    Wait, wait, there is a balance strategy :o

    I thought it was random number generator.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    Rev is being played as a Thief which doesn't even need to stealth, 25 Might stack immediately, and a very hard hitting skill.

    Wanna guess what they decide to nerf of all the obvious problems I've listed?

    DRUMROLL PLEASE

    Nerf Shiro.

    Entirely disagree.

    Shiro used to provide high sustained movement speed, enhanced damage in the otherwise mediocre heal and superspeed which made the abhorrently slow weapons from the class (specially hammer and mace) somewhat playable vs hoomans.

    Now the still entirely mediocre heal provides less heal and less damage, you need spent trait to move slower than before with Impossible Odds and that skill no longer provides superspeed so you need essentially afk players to land a Phase Smash or Drop the Hammer on anyone (not to mention that any Mesmer, Thief or Ranger gains free interrupts on Revs any time they wield a mace or a hammer, making them essentially useles in PvP). Also, due no longer superspeed on demand, harvesting ore, plants and logs do requiere to spent money in enhanced gathering tools.

    Also, along 2019, Rev lost most of its sources of vulnerability, most of the procs related to that condition and saw how the might stacking was halved (in a class with barely deals damage without that boon, and even with 25 power Herals is bottom tier dps since forever.

    Meanwhile, Mesmers and Thieves can enter and leave stealth at will and stunlock for ages slow classes as Shiro Revenant while claiming that that legend needs nerfs... What a joke.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    Entirely disagree.

    Shiro used to provide high sustained movement speed, enhanced damage in the otherwise mediocre heal and superspeed which made the abhorrently slow weapons from the class (specially hammer and mace) somewhat playable vs hoomans.

    Now the still entirely mediocre heal provides less heal and less damage, you need spent trait to move slower than before with Impossible Odds and that skill no longer provides superspeed so you need essentially afk players to land a Phase Smash or Drop the Hammer on anyone (not to mention that any Mesmer, Thief or Ranger gains free interrupts on Revs any time they wield a mace or a hammer, making them essentially useles in PvP). Also, due no longer superspeed on demand, harvesting ore, plants and logs do requiere to spent money in enhanced gathering tools.

    This is the first time I've heard people using Shiro's Superspeed buff to play HAMMER builds.

    I thought people used Superspeed to rotate PvP super fast and it's basically a get out of jail free card when it comes to people trying to tag yu with cripple spam.

    Unless yu meant Quickness, which explains yur mention of gathering tools.

    I think Impossible Odds have been crippled to the point that the Energy Cost isn't even that great anymore for a simple double strike effect.

    It used to still be highly prized for Superspeed when Quickness for removed but they removed that too.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2020

    Build diversity is questionable when players look only at things face value, that's not something you can do as Revenant, you have to really think out of the box for every little details and not limit yourself to the idea that because legends are tied it means we have no freedom, look at any classes and it's easy to notice how people themselves are locked into the same dilema picking the same skills anyway.

    Additional effects on weapon skills have been suggested for a while probably even before I started playing, those are done through traits because if we have had to go with such design, then we would have other balance issues at hand involving conditions and a huge rework to do, this is why we have weapons with defined purposes, while the Trident is cool, it's mostly to compensate for the lack of certain legends underwater that they've allowed legend based effects, the ability to inflict weakness constantly on land would be stupid strong and I can only imagine what condition Ventari would have, constant blinds? Who knows. Right now Revenant is quite fine with only a few traits that could use some tweaks but that's for every class really.

    To contrary belief it's often forgotten also that Revenant was designed with only "1" weapon in mind at the time and we still benefit from those extremely low weapon cooldowns to this day. Swapping from Bow or Mace/Axe on a condition build for example doesn't increase DPS per say, it only carry damage around in a different way

    Sure Revenant doesn't have all the Weapons like a Warrior or Guardian does, but it doesn't really need to.

    If there's one thing Anet could do, it's bringing back Duelist Preparation as a Riposte skill which Shackling Waves is the following after blocking.

    Phase Smash is one of the most misunderstood skill in this game as it is being one of the greatest bait for tracking skills and not very far from Maul Ranger in CD to Damage comparison.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    Rev is the class with more build diversity as in decent combinations... ._.

    For start i have 3 main builds for my revs let me see...

    Healer, damage, damage with with damage reducer so.. support role while dps, heavy condi, hybrid condi with some heal, alacrity bot with healing, bruiser with some sturdiness and support.
    We need a greatsword.

    And probably many other builds or play style from other players.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:

    Entirely disagree.

    Shiro used to provide high sustained movement speed, enhanced damage in the otherwise mediocre heal and superspeed which made the abhorrently slow weapons from the class (specially hammer and mace) somewhat playable vs hoomans.

    Now the still entirely mediocre heal provides less heal and less damage, you need spent trait to move slower than before with Impossible Odds and that skill no longer provides superspeed so you need essentially afk players to land a Phase Smash or Drop the Hammer on anyone (not to mention that any Mesmer, Thief or Ranger gains free interrupts on Revs any time they wield a mace or a hammer, making them essentially useles in PvP). Also, due no longer superspeed on demand, harvesting ore, plants and logs do requiere to spent money in enhanced gathering tools.

    This is the first time I've heard people using Shiro's Superspeed buff to play HAMMER builds.

    I thought people used Superspeed to rotate PvP super fast and it's basically a get out of jail free card when it comes to people trying to tag yu with cripple spam.

    Unless yu meant Quickness, which explains yur mention of gathering tools.

    I think Impossible Odds have been crippled to the point that the Energy Cost isn't even that great anymore for a simple double strike effect.

    It used to still be highly prized for Superspeed when Quickness for removed but they removed that too.

    Feels like you're both misinterpreting each other when you're actually agreeing.

    Buran was talking about how Impossible Odds interacted with hammer back when it granted quickness (even if Buran said superspeed instead). Quickness turns the slow attack speed of hammer skills into something actually practical, which when combined with other parts of Shiro's kit made Shiro probably the best synergy with hammer, at least if you're planning to go on the offensive.

    Conversely, I don't think Buran realised that when you said "DRUMROLL PLEASE: Nerf Shiro" that you were actually criticising ArenaNet's decisions to balance revenant by nerfing Shiro via sarcasm rather than agreeing with that approach.