(For the next patch) Toughness vs Vitality — Guild Wars 2 Forums

(For the next patch) Toughness vs Vitality

Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

I'll just dump my calculations and ideas here. Feel free to discuss.

With the next patch, vitality and toughness on 4 stat amulets will be nerfed to 500 from 560. This has some consequences.

Before you start:

  • I used exotic weapons/armor stats since that's what I think pvp uses. Weapons use midpoint strength.
  • The formula for damage calculation is = (weapon strength * power * skill coefficient) / (toughness + defense)
  • A level 80 character has 1000 base power, 1000 base toughness and 1000 base vitality.
  • Different armor classes have 920, 1064 and 1211 defense respectively.
  • Before patch, critical attacks are always 187%, after patch they are 183% since we lose 50 ferocity.
  • 1 vitality increases maximum health by 10.
  • Toughness is always there but vitality needs to be healed.
  • Toughness doesn't affect conditions.

Before patch

Let's imagine a skill on hammer (midpoint 1048) with a power coefficient of 1 hitting a light armor target. If the attacker has 2050 power:
No toughness: Damage done = (1048 * 2050 * 1) / (1000 + 920), approximately 1119 (crits for 2093).
560 toughness: Damage done = (1048 * 2050 * 1) / (1560 + 920), so approximately 866 (crits for 1619).
So in case of a critical hit, 560 extra toughness absorbed 474 damage. (This is less than Warrior's Healing Signet's two ticks)

Trying this again with a bigger attack, for example with a coefficient of 2:
No toughness: Damage done = (1048 * 2050 * 2) / (1000 + 920), approximately 2238 (crits for 4185).
560 toughness: Damage done = (1048 * 2050 * 2) / (1560 + 920), so approximately 1733 (crits for 3241).
So in case of a critical hit, 560 extra toughness absorbed 944 damage. (This is less than Warrior's Healing Signet's three ticks)

560 vitality gives 5600 maximum health, which is healed in approximately 17 ticks from Healing Signet.

New question: Now that damage and healing is getting nerfed, which one gains more value?

After patch

New coefficients for our hammer skills will be 0.67 and 1.34, considering both of our skills got nerfed by approximately 33%. Also, now that our attacker has 2000 power and 500 ferocity, meaning the damage will be less. On the other hand, 4 stat vitality amulets lose 600 base health and 4 stat toughness amulets lose 60 toughness.
Also healing signet now heals less per tick, 230 instead of 344.

Let's recalculate everything:
No toughness: Damage done = (1048 * 2000 * 0.67) / (1000 + 920), approximately 750 (crits for 1373).
500 toughness: Damage done = (1048 * 2000 * 0.67) / (1500 + 920), so approximately 580 (crits for 1061).
So in case of a critical hit, 500 extra toughness absorbed 312 damage. (This is less than Healing Signet's two ticks)

Trying this again with a bigger attack, for example with a coefficient of 1.34:
No toughness: Damage done = (1048 * 2000 * 1.34 / (1000 + 920), approximately 1463 (crits for 2677).
500 toughness: Damage done = (1048 * 2000 * 1.34) / (1500 + 920), so approximately 1160 (crits for 2123).
So in case of a critical hit, 500 extra toughness absorbed 554 damage. (This is less than Healing Signet's three ticks)

500 vitality gives 5000 maximum health, which is healed in approximately 21 ticks from Healing Signet.

Remark:

  • Toughness helps more against bigger attacks, but is useless against conditions. However, vitality needs to be healed to be of use.
  • After nerfs, 4-stat toughness amulets' values drops approximately 34% for small attacks and 41% for large attacks.
  • With less healing, a 4-stat vitality amulet's vitality loses 19% of its value (healing extra health from amulet takes longer).

New question: What if these low and high damage skills hit us 2 times?

Conclusion and my opinions

  • Considering two hits, 500 toughness absorbs 624 damage from 0.67 coefficient skill and 1108 damage from 1.34 damage skill.
  • This patch makes toughness a bit less value, but against power damage it is still better considering you will get hit more than one time: Only if you can't really heal.
  • If you can heal yourself or you are against condi damage, vitality still wins, but it also lost some of its value since healing is nerfed too.
  • If you read everything until here, congratulations.

Comments

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, that's good to know.

    My idea of Toughness however was always that it's useful if you don't have the means to heal back up a lot or want to invest in Healing Power while Vitality is when you have a lot of Damage Reduction modifiers anyway that it doesn't matter how much Vitality you have even with low Healing Power although that if you do have the means to heal up all the vitality invested into it's also a better choice for skills like Infuse Light or Defiant Stance.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    My idea of Toughness however was always that it's useful if you don't have the means to heal back up a lot or want to invest in Healing Power while Vitality is when you have a lot of Damage Reduction modifiers anyway that it doesn't matter how much Vitality you have even with low Healing Power although that if you do have the means to heal up all the vitality invested into it's also a better choice for skills like Infuse Light or Defiant Stance.

    I was hinting to what you said in the conclusion section :)
    However, in the end, vitality is better in terms of pure math so healing power will have more value after patch hits.

  • @Tayga.3192 said:

    With the next patch, vitality and toughness on 4 stat amulets will be nerfed to 500 from 560. This has some consequences.

    If I remember correctly, heavy-armor classes take 13% less damage compared to light-armor classes. I am not sure, but dont heavy-armor classes gain even more advantage now? I mean as this difference didnt change, but as theres less damage now? As you seem to like math & statistics :p maybe you, or somebody else, can answer that question?

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Does that mean necro DS will have even more value?

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @hotte in space.2158 said:
    If I remember correctly, heavy-armor classes take 13% less damage compared to light-armor classes. I am not sure, but dont heavy-armor classes gain even more advantage now? I mean as this difference didnt change, but as theres less damage now? As you seem to like math & statistics :p maybe you, or somebody else, can answer that question?

    If a skill did 100 damage to light armor, if 13% is correct, heavy armor would take 87, which is 13 damage reduction. Now if the same skill does 10 damage to light armor, heavy armor would take 9 which is just 1 damage reduction.
    The difference gets more irrelevant as the damage gets smaller.

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Does that mean necro DS will have even more value?

    If DS is Death Shroud, it probably will have more value since it can be "healed" as fast as it was before but it will get reduced relatively slower since damage is lower.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    I might be completely misunderstanding your post here....but I really don't get why you would argue for Toughness being more or less viable after the patch.

    From my understanding, armor rating is a %-based damage reduction. So even if amulet values change for the patch, the general value of any one unit of armor will stay the same (since Anet didn't touch the damage formula).

    The damage formula according to the wiki: (Weapon strength * Power * Power coefficient) / (Targets Armor)

    • Since the only value in this equations denominator is the Armor value, you can treat this value as %-based reduction.

    Some napkin math

    We assume the following:
    Weapon strength is equal to the midpoint of a 1H weapon: 922.5 (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon_Strength)

    We assume a Power stat of 2050 and make our calculations with a Power coefficient of 1.0/2.0/3.0 respectively

    We compare 2 armor ratings:
    Armor Value A = 2167 (which is the base armor of a heavy armor class without any bonus toughness)
    Armor Value B = 2727 (which is the base armor of a heavy armor class WITH 560 extra toughness)

    For simplicity we call the (Weapon strength * Power * Power Coefficient) portion of the equation "Gross Damage".

    Power coeff. of 1.0:
    Gross Damage = 1.891.125

    for Armor A (2167) that equals: 872,7 damage
    for Armor B (2727) that equals: 693,5 damage

    Power coeff. of 2.0:
    Gross Damage = 3.782.250

    For Armor A (2167) that equals: 1745,4 damage
    For Armor B (2727) that euqals: 1387,0 damage

    Power coeff. of 3.0:
    Gross Damage: 5.673.375

    For Armor A (2167) that equals: 2618,0 damage
    For Armor B (2727) that equals: 2080,5 damage

    The damage Reduction (for any Power coeff.) always stays the same. About 20.5% for 560 extra Toughness. Thats about ~3.7% Damage reduction per 100 Toughness.
    So even if the Amulets lose 60 Toughness...that doesnt really mean that toughness will be "less effective". They just lose about ~2% Damage reduction.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    snip

    No, you are right but we are touching on different things.
    I guess some of my "toughness" words are used for "4-stat amulets with toughness in it", for example demolisher and paladin.

    Since it's a percentage damage reduction, if you get hit by a higher damage attack, your toughness does more work.
    So, if the total damage is nerfed, toughness loses value as a stat since it'll block x% of a lower damage skill instead of x% of a higher damage skill.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    snip

    No, you are right but we are touching on different things.
    I guess some of my "toughness" words are used for "4-stat amulets with toughness in it", for example demolisher and paladin.

    Since it's a percentage damage reduction, if you get hit by a higher damage attack, your toughness does more work.
    So, if the total damage is nerfed, toughness loses value as a stat since it'll block x% of a lower damage skill instead of x% of a higher damage skill.

    ah okay
    ye, in terms of absolute number reductions, this seems like a fair point.
    Thanks for clarifying.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    This is even more important now that people are talking about a hypothetical Unkillable Core Necro.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192
    all these numbers and none of the matter.
    you need to add up all the HEALING to the calculation.
    You can have 16k hp, vitality will push that to 21k.
    but you need to think about healing.
    if in 30s duel one can heal for 12k, it means that baseline you had 28k, and with amulet only 33k.
    in that scenario toughtness is MUUUUUCH better.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    all these numbers and none of the matter.
    you need to add up all the HEALING to the calculation.
    You can have 16k hp, vitality will push that to 21k.
    but you need to think about healing.
    if in 30s duel one can heal for 12k, it means that baseline you had 28k, and with amulet only 33k.
    in that scenario toughtness is MUUUUUCH better.

    If you read it again, you will see I said the exact same thing.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    all these numbers and none of the matter.
    you need to add up all the HEALING to the calculation.
    You can have 16k hp, vitality will push that to 21k.
    but you need to think about healing.
    if in 30s duel one can heal for 12k, it means that baseline you had 28k, and with amulet only 33k.
    in that scenario toughtness is MUUUUUCH better.

    If you read it again, you will see I said the exact same thing.

    I did some quick math.
    demolisher provides 7350 worth of HP value in def when you take 30k dmg over its duration ( mesmer so low def )
    the longer the fight goes, the more and more usefull toughtness is compared to vitality, this CANT be calculated realistically.
    only way to do that would be to make 1v1 duel, and record ALL healing recived and get actuall HP number.

    Speaking of duels, in 30s+ duel most classes heal 12k from their healing skill alone, add aditional healing from regen/other sources, and you end up with closer to 20k
    against power builds will provide twice the value as long as you dont get instagibbed.
    against condi its hard to say, becouse alot of the condi builds apply some power damage ( depends alot on might )
    its hard to calculate how much warrior can heal in 1v1 for example, 19k base, 300+ from signet each sec, ¬150 from each might? how often do you get it? how often do you crit etc etc
    But realistically we dont need to know the numbers.
    toughness>vitality unless
    1 you get 1shoted without vitality ( thie/ele could be due to low HP + possible against guard but less due to prot and bigger toughtness as base )
    or 2 oponents are HEAVY condi, and even then i bet its propably just better to use more cleansing with sigil/utilities.
    1 good cleanse will provide more then 5k from amulet anyways.

    What I would be more interested is toughness vs healing power, after all the changes.
    but it would be by class basis, and would take 4ever to do. nobody cares that much i bet lol.
    good read anyways

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    Thanks for the write up!

    I think both Toughness will still be an important stat to pick up on builds with alot of passive or "chip" healing.
    It's foolish to think that damage reduced across the board means getting bursted is no longer gonna be an issue.

    If one picks up on Vitality only, it's really only to survive a burst and retaliate in turn, taking down the enemy before they themselves are taken down.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    But realistically we dont need to know the numbers.
    toughness>vitality unless
    1 you get 1shoted without vitality ( thie/ele could be due to low HP + possible against guard but less due to prot and bigger toughtness as base )
    or 2 oponents are HEAVY condi, and even then i bet its propably just better to use more cleansing with sigil/utilities.

    I agree on that as well.
    My main "point" was that toughness AND vitality are less valuable compared to before, which means "passive" defense has lost value compared to before.

    What I would be more interested is toughness vs healing power, after all the changes.

    That's also a good point, since toughness + healing power amulets are gone AFAIK, like Cleric.

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    snip

    If you have chip healing, it's usually better to take vitality. If you don't, it's better to take toughness.

  • I don't understand the point of this. damage calculation isn't changing, 500 tough is still a 30% or whatever damage reduction pre and post patch. soo...

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I don't understand the point of this. damage calculation isn't changing, 500 tough is still a 30% or whatever damage reduction pre and post patch. soo...

    Already explained:

    No, you are right but we are touching on different things.
    I guess some of my "toughness" words are used for "4-stat amulets with toughness in it", for example demolisher and paladin.

    Since it's a percentage damage reduction, if you get hit by a higher damage attack, your toughness does more work.
    So, if the total damage is nerfed, toughness loses value as a stat since it'll block x% of a lower damage skill instead of x% of a higher damage skill.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    snip

    30% is still 30%. armor doing less work does not equate to less value, unless you added time and healing to the equation and proved that vitality has more ttk. the numbers involved are irrelevant, whats important is the 30% that hasn't changed.

    edit
    maybe we see a shift towards vitality amulets. armor along with other damage mitigation and healing will be strong tho.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    snip

    30% is still 30%. armor doing less work does not equate to less value, unless you added time and healing to the equation and proved that vitality has more ttk. the numbers involved are irrelevant, whats important is the 30% that hasn't changed.

    edit
    maybe we see a shift towards vitality amulets. armor along with other damage mitigation and healing will be stronger then ever tho.

    if anything toughtness should get better, since combat will be less bursty. Unless condi becomes more widely used

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Imo, toughness often only matters when you are almost instagibbed.

    If you die regardless (low Vitality/HP Pool or just a mega 26k hit) then toughness isn’t really in play because you will still be global’d no matter what toughness you have.

    In a long term fight, toughness matters less than your net ability to heal. Sure, it will make you need to heal less over many hits but odds are your burst healing will matter more than how much you shave off in terms of damage taken from multiple smaller hits.

    Post-patch I think toughness will matter more because bigger hits that used to global will now more often than not be risky gambles the target is more likely to survive (with toughness at least).

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Imo, toughness often only matters when you are almost instagibbed.

    If you die regardless (low Vitality/HP Pool or just a mega 26k hit) then toughness isn’t really in play because you will still be global’d no matter what toughness you have.

    In a long term fight, toughness matters less than your net ability to heal. Sure, it will make you need to heal less over many hits but odds are your burst healing will matter more than how much you shave off in terms of damage taken from multiple smaller hits.

    Post-patch I think toughness will matter more because bigger hits that used to global will now more often than not be risky gambles the target is more likely to survive (with toughness at least).

    honest question, do you even understand how toughness works?

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Imo, toughness often only matters when you are almost instagibbed.

    If you die regardless (low Vitality/HP Pool or just a mega 26k hit) then toughness isn’t really in play because you will still be global’d no matter what toughness you have.

    In a long term fight, toughness matters less than your net ability to heal. Sure, it will make you need to heal less over many hits but odds are your burst healing will matter more than how much you shave off in terms of damage taken from multiple smaller hits.

    Post-patch I think toughness will matter more because bigger hits that used to global will now more often than not be risky gambles the target is more likely to survive (with toughness at least).

    honest question, do you even understand how toughness works?

    What exactly do you disagree with here? If I take a 22k without toughness now, and 18k with toughness, I’m dead either way so it’s a wasted stat.

    Large HP pool professions can also get the largest potential benefit from toughness in extended fights because they can take the most hits and thus mitigate the most damage over time. But in most cases that extra toughness won’t matter as much as their ability to heal/generate life force/barrier over the course of a fight.

    I’d see more opportunities in a damage reduced meta for toughness to matter more to those high damage scenarios and also for extended fights. You’re not just getting “two or three ticks” of a healing signet. That’s the wrong comparison.

    The right comparison is, because you get that off each and every attack, how much HP that saves you over your whole HP bar plus healing. If you can‘t heal, because you got killed 100% to zero without a chance, that’s much less HP and comparatively much less HP wiggle room for toughness to help.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    Toughness will be more important than ever vs. power damage because healing was nerfed.

    A person could have 50,000 health pool, but with healing nerfed and nothing to mitigate inc. power damage, that person likely won't be able to sustain in the long run and will die.

    However, a person with 13,000 health who had a lot of toughness value, maybe protection when needed, and juuust enough heal stat to make sure they were always healing a bit more than they were taking damage in the long run, will ultimately be able to sustain and not die.

    Vitality is actually irrelevant beyond having only enough to ensure you aren't 1-2SHOT from a burst. Past that, you need to stack damage mitigation mixed with just enough heal factor to realistically cycle and survive.

    Post patch when damage goes down along with healing, vitality will be easy to come by. Toughness will be more important for balancing the mitigation of the power damage vs. heal factor being able to do its job and provide sustained cycling.

    In our previous patching people were only ditching toughness/vitality because damage was SO $%^&ING HIGH that it didn't really matter. What mattered more was being able to 1-2HKO that person before they did it to you, in most cases anyway. And that's exactly why damage is being cut now. But yeah, you'll be surprised at how powerful toughness stat will be in the next meta. Toughness will declare which classes/builds are sustainy an which ones are not. This will be especially true because they are removing stun breaks and other defensive mechanisms left & right, so things that want to be sustainy are going to have to stat for being able to soak more raw damage, rather than avoiding it.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @hotte in space.2158 said:
    If I remember correctly, heavy-armor classes take 13% less damage compared to light-armor classes. I am not sure, but dont heavy-armor classes gain even more advantage now? I mean as this difference didnt change, but as theres less damage now? As you seem to like math & statistics :p maybe you, or somebody else, can answer that question?

    If a skill did 100 damage to light armor, if 13% is correct, heavy armor would take 87, which is 13 damage reduction. Now if the same skill does 10 damage to light armor, heavy armor would take 9 which is just 1 damage reduction.
    The difference gets more irrelevant as the damage gets smaller.

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Does that mean necro DS will have even more value?

    If DS is Death Shroud, it probably will have more value since it can be "healed" as fast as it was before but it will get reduced relatively slower since damage is lower.

    You also only get half the dmg in deatshroud, something many ppl dont even know

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Toughness will be more important than ever vs. power damage because healing was nerfed.

    A person could have 50,000 health pool, but with healing nerfed and nothing to mitigate inc. power damage, that person likely won't be able to sustain in the long run and will die.

    However, a person with 13,000 health who had a lot of toughness value, maybe protection when needed, and juuust enough heal stat to make sure they were always healing a bit more than they were taking damage in the long run, will ultimately be able to sustain and not die.

    Vitality is actually irrelevant beyond having only enough to ensure you aren't 1-2SHOT from a burst. Past that, you need to stack damage mitigation mixed with just enough heal factor to realistically cycle and survive.

    Post patch when damage goes down along with healing, vitality will be easy to come by. Toughness will be more important for balancing the mitigation of the power damage vs. heal factor being able to do its job and provide sustained cycling.

    In our previous patching people were only ditching toughness/vitality because damage was SO $%^&ING HIGH that it didn't really matter. What mattered more was being able to 1-2HKO that person before they did it to you, in most cases anyway. And that's exactly why damage is being cut now. But yeah, you'll be surprised at how powerful toughness stat will be in the next meta. Toughness will declare which classes/builds are sustainy an which ones are not. This will be especially true because they are removing stun breaks and other defensive mechanisms left & right, so things that want to be sustainy are going to have to stat for being able to soak more raw damage, rather than avoiding it.

    Toughness only helps vs power dmg tho, if everybody starts stacking toughness condi builds are going to have a comeback as counter.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Toughness will be more important than ever vs. power damage because healing was nerfed.

    A person could have 50,000 health pool, but with healing nerfed and nothing to mitigate inc. power damage, that person likely won't be able to sustain in the long run and will die.

    However, a person with 13,000 health who had a lot of toughness value, maybe protection when needed, and juuust enough heal stat to make sure they were always healing a bit more than they were taking damage in the long run, will ultimately be able to sustain and not die.

    Vitality is actually irrelevant beyond having only enough to ensure you aren't 1-2SHOT from a burst. Past that, you need to stack damage mitigation mixed with just enough heal factor to realistically cycle and survive.

    Post patch when damage goes down along with healing, vitality will be easy to come by. Toughness will be more important for balancing the mitigation of the power damage vs. heal factor being able to do its job and provide sustained cycling.

    In our previous patching people were only ditching toughness/vitality because damage was SO $%^&ING HIGH that it didn't really matter. What mattered more was being able to 1-2HKO that person before they did it to you, in most cases anyway. And that's exactly why damage is being cut now. But yeah, you'll be surprised at how powerful toughness stat will be in the next meta. Toughness will declare which classes/builds are sustainy an which ones are not. This will be especially true because they are removing stun breaks and other defensive mechanisms left & right, so things that want to be sustainy are going to have to stat for being able to soak more raw damage, rather than avoiding it.

    Toughness only helps vs power dmg tho, if everybody starts stacking toughness condi builds are going to have a comeback as counter.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Imo, toughness often only matters when you are almost instagibbed.

    If you die regardless (low Vitality/HP Pool or just a mega 26k hit) then toughness isn’t really in play because you will still be global’d no matter what toughness you have.

    In a long term fight, toughness matters less than your net ability to heal. Sure, it will make you need to heal less over many hits but odds are your burst healing will matter more than how much you shave off in terms of damage taken from multiple smaller hits.

    Post-patch I think toughness will matter more because bigger hits that used to global will now more often than not be risky gambles the target is more likely to survive (with toughness at least).

    honest question, do you even understand how toughness works?

    What exactly do you disagree with here? If I take a 22k without toughness now, and 18k with toughness, I’m dead either way so it’s a wasted stat.

    Large HP pool professions can also get the largest potential benefit from toughness in extended fights because they can take the most hits and thus mitigate the most damage over time. But in most cases that extra toughness won’t matter as much as their ability to heal/generate life force/barrier over the course of a fight.

    I’d see more opportunities in a damage reduced meta for toughness to matter more to those high damage scenarios and also for extended fights. You’re not just getting “two or three ticks” of a healing signet. That’s the wrong comparison.

    The right comparison is, because you get that off each and every attack, how much HP that saves you over your whole HP bar plus healing. If you can‘t heal, because you got killed 100% to zero without a chance, that’s much less HP and comparatively much less HP wiggle room for toughness to help.

    This is quite correct.
    Toughness makes Healing "more valuable" in a sense if you take EHPs (Effective Health Pool) into account.
    Effective Health Pools basically combine Armor and HP into a single stat that shows how much (raw) damage you can take before dying.

    If we go with Necro as an example:

    Necro A with 900 extra vitality and 0 extra toughness (carrion i.e.) has 28.212 HP.
    Necro B has 0 extra vitality and 900 extra toughness (rabid i.e.) has 19.212 HP.

    BUT since 900 toughness equals about ~33% damage reduction, that means that necro B only takes 66% of every power damage flung at it. Thin in turn means, that the damage that is needed to kill necro B (100% of any one value) has to be 50% higher (150% * 0.66 = 100%) than it is for necro A.
    Therefore Necro B effectively has 28.818 HP against power damage. More than Necro A.

    Now if both Necros would use their heal skill, Necro B would actually get more value (50% more value in this example) out of it, because heals restore a flat amount of HP and not EHP.

    Then again, You would need pretty high amounts of toughness and healing to reach value-levels that beat flat out HP increases. (A stat combo the devs have gone down HARD on in HoT).
    Also, the fact that Armor rating does nothing against condies has to be considered.

    Edit: Old cleric Tempest is a good example of Toughness beating vitality, since Diamond Skin took care of conditions and the earth traitline added extra toughness and damage mitigation, to the point were you could survive outnumbered situations on 11k HP simply because each of your heals restored a massive percentage of your EHP.

    Edit#2: A calculation error for the EHP.

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    Toughness or vitality - against power hits its no change it won't change the balance between them since one just reduced % dmg taken while the other gives you more health nothing changing there and your total resistance to power damage is a calculation from both numbers and the optimal point won't change after patch.

    But you gotta look to sustain balance and condition vs power balance. Condition gets nerfed less than power, so that makes vitality bit more important, and i'm not sure if heals get nerfed more than power damage but if heals are nerfed more than damage, then that will make sustain harder and thereby make vitality more important.

    It also depends on classes base health/armor, builds, items etc, classes with a lot of heal available to them gets more benefit from stacking toughness, whereas classes who can't really heal much get more benefit from going for the ideal point between vita and toughness, don't know what that is but its probably stacking max vita if you don't heal much.

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    BUT since 900 toughness equals about ~33% damage reduction, that means that necro B effectively has 33% extra HP vs pure power dmg.
    So Necro B, effectively, has 25.552 HP.

    THat's not exactly how it works, if you have 33%(1/3) dmg reduction, its like an effective 50% health increase. To give 100% dmg to someone who takes only 2/3 of the damage, you need to do 150% damage --> 150% * 2/3 = 100%. If you have a 50% damage reduction its like an effective health increase of 100%, you need to do twice his health in damage to bring him down if he takes only half.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    THat's not exactly how it works, if you have 33%(1/3) dmg reduction, its like an effective 50% health increase. To give 100% dmg to someone who takes only 2/3 of the damage, you need to do 150% damage --> 150% * 2/3 = 100%. If you have a 50% damage reduction its like an effective health increase of 100%, you need to do twice his health in damage to bring him down if he takes only half.

    Thanks for pointing this out.
    The number in my initial post seemed quite low to me to begin with. Couldn't put my finger on why tho.
    This makes perfect sense however.
    Edited my initial post accordingly.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    Toughness increases the effectiveness of healing, but a lot of healing skills and traits are also nerfed in the patch.

    Now it depends how much the healing was nerfed in the specific build you run.

    All in all necro is the only class that will see amulet shifts. After years there will exist viable marauder builds for necro again.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    30% is still 30%. armor doing less work does not equate to less value, unless you added time and healing to the equation and proved that vitality has more ttk. the numbers involved are irrelevant, whats important is the 30% that hasn't changed.

    It's like this:
    I don't care if x toughness reduces incoming damage by y%, what's important is not percentages but flat values since what matters is, in the end, the damage you received.
    30% damage reduction is less value when the the skill hits me for 1k (it will absorb 300 damage), compared to when it was 10k (it will absorb 3k damage).

    edit
    maybe we see a shift towards vitality amulets. armor along with other damage mitigation and healing will be strong tho.

    Excluding cmirage and core necro, I still expect same classes to run same amulets.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Well, that's good to know.

    My idea of Toughness however was always that it's useful if you don't have the means to heal back up a lot or want to invest in Healing Power while Vitality is when you have a lot of Damage Reduction modifiers anyway that it doesn't matter how much Vitality you have even with low Healing Power although that if you do have the means to heal up all the vitality invested into it's also a better choice for skills like Infuse Light or Defiant Stance.

    Well my perception of it was that 560 Toughness amulets were effectively a 22% increase on effective health against power damage, and if you're on a medium vitality build 560 vitality was a 33% increase in effective health. However depending on the self healing it can radically change the value of toughness. Let's say you're a holosmith and during a fight you get two separate healing turrets off. This means your opponent isn't just punching through 15,900 damage but 30,000 to secure the kill. With a vitality amulet though means its effectively only a 15% effective health increase, since it'll bump you up to 36,344 damage the opponent needs to punch through. But the toughness on demolisher's is a 22% increase in effective health across all the 30,000 HP the opponent needs to inflict before they kill you.

    Basically as long as you aren't fighting conditions and you're prioritizing fighting power builds, toughness let's you double dip into it's value compared to vitality to the way healing plays with it.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Its rather simple how you decide between taking demolisher or marauder amulet on a build.

    If your class has low base HP and high base armor you want to take marauder, if your class has high base HP but low armor you want to take demolisher. Demolisher amulets value against power damage increases the more healing you receive because you heal the same amount HP as marauders but gain more EHP because each point of HP is more valuable on demolishers. Marauder lets you have a higher maximum HP against condition damage to heal up to/start at. If you are on a class with sufficient base HP and base armor you want to decide your choice depending on if you will face more consistent power pressure vs burst condition damage.

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