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Soul Eater Rant

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  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Listen to this idea what if you get set amount of healing 200 hp per hit with icd of 1 second in melee range when wielding GS you get double the effect.

    400 a second. A heal is usually 20-30s cd. 30 x 400 = 12,000 i think? So the possibility is ok, however 400 is a lot more than 10% per hit (or 5% i think the trait is) as normal hits average 2-3k i think. And take longer than 1 second to hit, if we take the 3k dmg, = 150 healing a second per foe. If this assuming you hit 2 foes per strike (approx 150-200 a second factoring in attack speed idk the exact maths by heart) is what anet believes it “too much survivability” I sadly think double that is to them also too much, HOWEVER if we factored in gravediggers 30k or so thats 1500 maybe which is nice but again 2 or so seconds, blah blah , overall nice “idea” however current is actually weaker on average so if you buff it (and by proxy make it healing power effected) that would make anet even more likely to say necros live too long. (You’d tjink on the Vitality 2x health bar caster they would WANT you to survive, since you do lower damage than other casters)

    Well the old gs trait was healing 200 per second and gave 2% LF in combat, the rework felt worse and the only reason it was better was the heal in shroud since the 5% heal from out healed for around 50 to 140 hp and the necromancer doesn't have really that great weapons to use with this trait. GS is too slow for the trait in pvp and the trait is somewhat useless in pve since the time it can be optimal, when the boss is under 50% hp and gravedigger is spammed with all the boons you are healed by the support.
    I checked other leach and options on necro and they are horrible, dagger leach is worthless 400 per hit, signet the same, passive the same, they are just dps increase.
    They don't want the leach to be good, the only option to keep your hp up is the shroud but it is on 10s cd, so it has to be supported but it can't be supported that well cause the shroud, too many draw backs for little pay off. I enjoy it, when once in a while stars align and you get to the the play where you kill the whole opposing team, but outside of that i feel like i'm handicapping myself.
    I know that people left and were laid off and starting idea was probably forgotten, but can they have idea what the main goal of the elite specialization, what makes it special, not the gimmicks and the flashy stuff but the practical effects, what is it good at and why would anyone take you in a fractal, raid or pvp over someone else.

    With optimal damage build even your normal AA hits should do more than 10k in PvE. You would have to run some low damage build to only heal 50-140 hp. It was stupidly strong in both organized and open world content. Are you really telling me you are only dealing 1k-2.8k dps out of shroud in raids for it to heal 50-140 hp? Have you ever seen a proper reaper rotation? Gravedigger is not spammed as all it does is replacing your autoattack. You still go through the rotation. I have a strong feeling a lot of people are just not understanding how strong it was due to the poor builds that are being played.

    Also old gs trait was 200 hp per second and 0.5% LF while you are wielding a GS. You never really camp GS in PvP and in PvE it means nothing. The 20% cd reduction was more the true factor and that only really matters in PvP.

    50 to 140 for pvp, who the hell cares how much you heal in PVE, no one can be bothered to heal your kitten popping in and out of shroud, get a berserker does the same and it is not being a princes about it. Old trait was better at that you had 2000 hp healed before entering shroud again and helped somewhat in kiting.
    Some people around here just want to argue for the sake of it and go for the tiniest of kitten. If you read up i care more about the pvp side of things in pve you can be healed way easier so having great self healing is not something that useful.

    Then you need to word it better, I was more referring to since it sounded like you had no idea what you were talking about in PvE.

    the trait is somewhat useless in pve since the time it can be optimal, when the boss is under 50% hp and gravedigger is spammed with all the boons you are healed by the support.

    You were never instantly healed up by the support, it also encouraged the laziness play style of "who cares if I get hit, I am just going to shroud at 20% and heal it back up". It was such a crutch that playing it makes the class feel invincible in PvE which is not good.

    In PvP, you would have to kite with a gs for 10 seconds for this to heal 2000 hp, 2000 hp is not even enough to heal you from 1 hit. Even when you are kiting I would never run around with a GS, the most I would do is drop a nightfall and run away with warhorn due to swiftness and the axe 3 so I can counter pressure while running. You used it for the 20% cd reduction and that's it. In fact the common buld didn't use gs at all at the time, it was staff + axe/warhorn. Decimate Defense was better in most situations in PvP. It was just a mediocre trait at the very best and bad at the very.

    The new SE is in the same position, DD is just better. You want sustain? Do you know what you should suggest them buffing? Blighter's boon and death magic. Both are defense trait/line that has fallen out of place. There was some meme when 2 charge BIP was introduced so you can get 30LF with blighter's boon at the start so there's working room given more updates. Soul eater is one of those traits that offered both offense and defense which I think is bad overall for the game. You really don't want one trait to do it all for the most cases. When's the last time people run chilling victory in PvP? How about we try playing around with that instead of pooling everything into one place.

    Power on necro is all over the place, whole rework on death magic would be good, but i don't like the minions, for many people they are a crutch, for me they are liability. The damage modifiers make it barely just good enough for the drawbacks, passive defenses would not help much reaper in pvp. The traits in the same row are kinda bad for power reaper since it can't get much value out of them, everyone is prepared for mirage, and scourge and applying enough chill and vuln on everything that is supper charged is not easy and the task is not worth the effort, they have to be kept up and covered and that is just moving to hybrid or condition reaper. Your defense is the damage you pull to scare people off and you have make everything count and make it count now. If the game slows down and with little tweeks they will see play, but with everything that is now running around, it is kill or get killed and that little bit of hp that you got in shroud helped enough to not let you die from the random conditions flying around.

    I mentioned death magic mostly because is a personal defense line as well as the minion line. Minions is more theme at this point and requires an elite spec for it to actually work. Also chilling victory was actually the go to pick when blighter's boon was the meta trait as bit of a side note.

    The reason I am really weary with any significant reaper buff in PvP is because Reaper is good in PvP. Is not on the same level as spellbreaker or firebrand sure, but is a solid B-A class. I know Anet try to class it as a tanky frontline but the reality is that it is a glass cannon melee dps. This likely will not change. So any defense buffs cannot too good without trading off offense. For example have blighter's boon be good enough to compete with onslaught so you cannot get both. We already have enough issues with bloated classes. Let's not buff a already solid class to the level of others, bringing others down instead is much more preferable. > @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Power on necro is all over the place, whole rework on death magic would be good, but i don't like the minions, for many people they are a crutch, for me they are liability. The damage modifiers make it barely just good enough for the drawbacks, passive defenses would not help much reaper in pvp. The traits in the same row are kinda bad for power reaper since it can't get much value out of them, everyone is prepared for mirage, and scourge and applying enough chill and vuln on everything that is supper charged is not easy and the task is not worth the effort, they have to be kept up and covered and that is just moving to hybrid or condition reaper. Your defense is the damage you pull to scare people off and you have make everything count and make it count now. If the game slows down and with little tweeks they will see play, but with everything that is now running around, it is kill or get killed and that little bit of hp that you got in shroud helped enough to not let you die from the random conditions flying around.

    This is part of the problem. In PVE (casual play) I play a minion builds. I enjoy minion builds and always main them. This includes: D3, WOW, RIFT, and more. It is what I enjoy. That is the whole reason I rolled a Necro main, is I can have a near permanent minion build when I'm just doing PVE content. They need to be very careful what they do with Death. You get rid of the buffed minions, I now lost why I rolled a Necro in the first place. I am sure I'm not alone. I also don't find it a crutch, as I could easily switch to a power build and kill things faster in PVE...

    I just wouldn't enjoy it.

    It might be a stupid idea....

    Each minion gives you +.5% Damage. This will help death damage a bit without need for a complete rewrite. Now things like Rise can be a DPS cooldown, and could make some interesting minion based builds possibly viable in Fractals.

    .5% might be a little low. Still if you can keep 20 minions up, you have 10% increase in damage. So keeping minions up becomes part of the game-play. 1% might be a little to much, but it might be behind enough to justify it?

    You already run 3 minions as the meta power reaper build. The issue with minions is that you cannot control them. As of now there is simply no mechanic that encourages upkeeping minions by yourself. Giving rise damage just means you press it off cd, it doesn't provide you the play style that you are thinking off.

    Any actual minion master build will likely require an elite spec for it to work.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    You already run 3 minions as the meta power reaper build. The issue with minions is that you cannot control them. As of now there is simply no mechanic that encourages upkeeping minions by yourself. Giving rise damage just means you press it off cd, it doesn't provide you the play style that you are thinking off.

    Any actual minion master build will likely require an elite spec for it to work.

    The best build I have found only uses 2 minions (Shadow and Flesh Golem). I take it, you use Fiend instead of Well of Blood. Slight DPS increase for some team healing?

    Now when I'm playing in the open world. Switch to death and do full minion build while doing stuff usually with the fiance. This is what I enjoy, and I would love a full minion build to be viable.

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    You already run 3 minions as the meta power reaper build. The issue with minions is that you cannot control them. As of now there is simply no mechanic that encourages upkeeping minions by yourself. Giving rise damage just means you press it off cd, it doesn't provide you the play style that you are thinking off.

    Any actual minion master build will likely require an elite spec for it to work.

    The best build I have found only uses 2 minions (Shadow and Flesh Golem). I take it, you use Fiend instead of Well of Blood. Slight DPS increase for some team healing?

    Now when I'm playing in the open world. Switch to death and do full minion build while doing stuff usually with the fiance. This is what I enjoy, and I would love a full minion build to be viable.

    I take blood fiend because is a tiny dps increase, keep in mind I am talking about in raid. In open world I use heal shout. A full minion build is viable. What you are looking for is optimal.

    I am assuming you never plan on setting foot inside high level fractal or raid. Then this will never really concern you. A full minion build is perfectly viable. If you are looking for raid viability then it will need an elite spec. Otherwise you would have leave and forget damage dealers which is not something you want to encourage.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    You already run 3 minions as the meta power reaper build. The issue with minions is that you cannot control them. As of now there is simply no mechanic that encourages upkeeping minions by yourself. Giving rise damage just means you press it off cd, it doesn't provide you the play style that you are thinking off.

    Any actual minion master build will likely require an elite spec for it to work.

    The best build I have found only uses 2 minions (Shadow and Flesh Golem). I take it, you use Fiend instead of Well of Blood. Slight DPS increase for some team healing?

    Now when I'm playing in the open world. Switch to death and do full minion build while doing stuff usually with the fiance. This is what I enjoy, and I would love a full minion build to be viable.

    I take blood fiend because is a tiny dps increase, keep in mind I am talking about in raid. In open world I use heal shout. A full minion build is viable. What you are looking for is optimal.

    I am assuming you never on setting foot inside high level fractal or raid. Then this will never really concern you. A full minion build is perfectly viable. If you are looking for raid viability then it will need an elite spec. Otherwise you would have leave and forget damage dealers which is not something you want to encourage.

    I have to switch specs for high level stuff. That being said, if it's not high level stuff, I enjoy the full minion build with the death trait. It's just more fun to me.

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    You already run 3 minions as the meta power reaper build. The issue with minions is that you cannot control them. As of now there is simply no mechanic that encourages upkeeping minions by yourself. Giving rise damage just means you press it off cd, it doesn't provide you the play style that you are thinking off.

    Any actual minion master build will likely require an elite spec for it to work.

    The best build I have found only uses 2 minions (Shadow and Flesh Golem). I take it, you use Fiend instead of Well of Blood. Slight DPS increase for some team healing?

    Now when I'm playing in the open world. Switch to death and do full minion build while doing stuff usually with the fiance. This is what I enjoy, and I would love a full minion build to be viable.

    I take blood fiend because is a tiny dps increase, keep in mind I am talking about in raid. In open world I use heal shout. A full minion build is viable. What you are looking for is optimal.

    I am assuming you never on setting foot inside high level fractal or raid. Then this will never really concern you. A full minion build is perfectly viable. If you are looking for raid viability then it will need an elite spec. Otherwise you would have leave and forget damage dealers which is not something you want to encourage.

    I have to switch specs for high level stuff. That being said, if it's not high level stuff, I enjoy the full minion build with the death trait. It's just more fun to me.

    Well let me offer a bit of thought on minions.

    I don't know if you ever played guild wars 1, but it was one of the more authentic necromancer minion master experiences. However it was not a dps, it was more of distractor and damage mitigation by overwhelming with numbers. So I really don't think minions as a damage spec is a good idea.

    What is far more likely is to make it a tank role. If death magic with minions can offer aoe quickness or alacrity somehow and blood magic offer some other boon such as fury, might etc. With a good espec that focuses on maintaining minions, I can see minion build working as a tank but it will take time and resources and is definitely not going to work at the current state. Pure damage is just unlikely in general due to the lack of interaction for minions.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    Was Testing this yesterday for a short time for roaming:
    https://tinyurl.com/y2tfley7

    Switched out wurm for poison cloud to counter the sheer amount of rangers I met, after one of them still oneshot me with one pewpew.

    The no healing at all is noticeable!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Was Testing this yesterday for a short time for roaming:
    https://tinyurl.com/y2tfley7

    Switched out wurm for poison cloud to counter the sheer amount of rangers I met, after one of them still oneshot me with one pewpew.

    The no healing at all is noticeable!

    Even if you had SE shorud heals, that ranger would have still one shotted you. There is a MASSIVE difference between sustain and tanking.

  • Morde.3158Morde.3158 Member ✭✭

    Playing glass necro is not an option anymore unless using all damage reduction build but depending on 1 trait line isnt very fun. Just take armor to wvw and you will be fine and make sure to READ what the traits and skills do.

  • jalmari.3906jalmari.3906 Member ✭✭

    a> @Morde.3158 said:

    Playing glass necro is not an option anymore unless using all damage reduction build but depending on 1 trait line isnt very fun. Just take armor to wvw and you will be fine and make sure to READ what the traits and skills do.

    Funny enough all traitlines used to be good for either reaper or core necro but now there's almost no choice. And yeah this nerfed skill was much better before it was "buffed" that was actually big nerf in pvp. So yah I'm not sure if balance team actually knows what they do.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Next balance patch:
    -no healing for necro at all, other than his healing skill and lifesteal, because necro is still too durable.
    -Nerfed necro dmg by 15% because being durable and doing dmg isn't allowed
    -buffed all other classes dmg by 20% because they couldn't kill the durable necro

  • dceptaconroy.7928dceptaconroy.7928 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm thinking the key word in that post is durable.

  • James.1065James.1065 Member ✭✭✭

    Bump this up!

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Was Testing this yesterday for a short time for roaming:
    https://tinyurl.com/y2tfley7

    Switched out wurm for poison cloud to counter the sheer amount of rangers I met, after one of them still oneshot me with one pewpew.

    The no healing at all is noticeable!

    Even if you had SE shorud heals, that ranger would have still one shotted you. There is a MASSIVE difference between sustain and tanking.

    The issue with your statement here is that almost every other class has at least one tool in some cases 2 or 3 tools to prevent this kind of thing form happening via blocks, evades, or invuln.
    Necro does not have that.

    Necro on core and reaper has a better version of barrier. Which does not matter as you can still be one shotted through it even if you use it well in attempts to protect yourself.
    Not to mention using this tactic depletes your source for most of your offensive pressure leaving you wide open.

    Other professions have inulns, stealth, blocks, evades, which when used well can prevent them from being one shotted. Damage avoidance will always be better than damage soaking and reduction FACTS.
    So you want a class that depends on its defense to be damage reduction via things like weakness and blind and damage soaking via things like shroud. hmmm..

    Ideally what does necro have to defend against one shot builds... you have 2 dodges and a shroud bar. Depending on your foe where critical cc skills may be chained together back to back its impossible to avoid certain key skills (this is infamous with dagger spell breakers as they will often use every cc they have back to back knowing you cant doge all of them, block any of them etc.

    It would be nice if anet just dropped this idea that necro cant have other things every other profession has unless they plan to really increase punishment on boon corruption and a few other things that it does specialize in which they have not done.

    Getting one shotted by a boon dripping ranger might not be an issue if that ranger had to first consider "Do i want to risk having my boons insta kill me" Boon corruption is a strong unique tool to the necro but imo its not as good as it should be. Some boons should always be focused over others and the conversions should be much more punishing than they are now imo.

    Because necromancers do not possesses tools out right avoid damage while also not having tools to instantly 1 shot some one as many other professions do or good combat escapes why are the special tools we have still living in 2013.

    Many of us are tired of the 1 step forward 2 steps back a balance patch later.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Next balance patch:
    -no healing for necro at all, other than his healing skill and lifesteal, because necro is still too durable.
    -Nerfed necro dmg by 15% because being durable and doing dmg isn't allowed
    -buffed all other classes dmg by 20% because they couldn't kill the durable necro

    Regarding Necromancer healing, I found based on tests the Sylvari heal heals more over time than any necromancer heal, closest is well of blood but that is still 2k short, and then I did some more testing and found that Two of thieves' heals were over 7k with no healing power investment, compared to the approx. 6k from necro heal and 10k of warrior heal.

    From my tests I've concluded that Necromancer as it stands now has too many contradictory effects, lifesteal that requires healing power, which you can't use if you want to do damage, Conditions do not benefit soul eater at all so you can't use conditions to circumvent the power stat of lifesteal. And Death Shroud With it's, what I can only say are Inconsistent, healing mechanics, Some traits do, some traits don't as I've mentioned in the past - I don't want to repeat what I keep saying but I really feel that a full necromancer overhaul would probably be the best way to make necromancer Unique and not have any comparing, If it was so drastically different from everything, you couldn't compare as much as we can right now saying X heals more or Y is more tanky, Z does more damage.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2019

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Next balance patch:
    -no healing for necro at all, other than his healing skill and lifesteal, because necro is still too durable.
    -Nerfed necro dmg by 15% because being durable and doing dmg isn't allowed
    -buffed all other classes dmg by 20% because they couldn't kill the durable necro

    Regarding Necromancer healing, I found based on tests the Sylvari heal heals more over time than any necromancer heal, closest is well of blood but that is still 2k short, and then I did some more testing and found that Two of thieves' heals were over 7k with no healing power investment, compared to the approx. 6k from necro heal and 10k of warrior heal.

    From my tests I've concluded that Necromancer as it stands now has too many contradictory effects, lifesteal that requires healing power, which you can't use if you want to do damage, Conditions do not benefit soul eater at all so you can't use conditions to circumvent the power stat of lifesteal. And Death Shroud With it's, what I can only say are Inconsistent, healing mechanics, Some traits do, some traits don't as I've mentioned in the past - I don't want to repeat what I keep saying but I really feel that a full necromancer overhaul would probably be the best way to make necromancer Unique and not have any comparing, If it was so drastically different from everything, you couldn't compare as much as we can right now saying X heals more or Y is more tanky, Z does more damage.

    There is a trait for healing from conditions its called Parasitic Contagion Oh wait right this does not work in shroud either... nvm....
    Oh but wait we have a trait that heals us in shroud... oh right its weaker than regeneration even when you crank up your healing power its still trash and you cant do damage if you use that...
    Oh right the rest of that traitline is also broken and does not account for true defenses or the lack of them...
    But you get tons of Might like every other class, some swiftness, and subpar protection up time.... minimal fury occasionally if you take curses... no boon sustain like firebrand or mesmer and ele either... hmmmmmmmmm

    Well kitten We got boon corruption... i guess that +1 = lack of every thing else. Because being able to corrupt boons is a big deal.. oh whats that it became a big deal because anet let boons get out of control on every other class except necromancer. The 1 tool that necro has that is special to them that no other class can use is considered to be more valuable than it really is because every other profession's boons got way out of control... oh also this tool has very minimal worth in the majority of pve even at end game level.

    ok but at least corrupting boons is super punishing though... some times.. boons applied constantly means its not easy to hit the boons you really want to hit in a critical moment to your survival in pvp or wvw. well fudge.....

    The circle of life around necro in a nutshell.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Next balance patch:
    -no healing for necro at all, other than his healing skill and lifesteal, because necro is still too durable.
    -Nerfed necro dmg by 15% because being durable and doing dmg isn't allowed
    -buffed all other classes dmg by 20% because they couldn't kill the durable necro

    Regarding Necromancer healing, I found based on tests the Sylvari heal heals more over time than any necromancer heal, closest is well of blood but that is still 2k short, and then I did some more testing and found that Two of thieves' heals were over 7k with no healing power investment, compared to the approx. 6k from necro heal and 10k of warrior heal.

    From my tests I've concluded that Necromancer as it stands now has too many contradictory effects, lifesteal that requires healing power, which you can't use if you want to do damage, Conditions do not benefit soul eater at all so you can't use conditions to circumvent the power stat of lifesteal. And Death Shroud With it's, what I can only say are Inconsistent, healing mechanics, Some traits do, some traits don't as I've mentioned in the past - I don't want to repeat what I keep saying but I really feel that a full necromancer overhaul would probably be the best way to make necromancer Unique and not have any comparing, If it was so drastically different from everything, you couldn't compare as much as we can right now saying X heals more or Y is more tanky, Z does more damage.

    There is a trait for healing from conditions its called Parasitic Contagion Oh wait right this does not work in shroud either... nvm....
    Oh but wait we have a trait that heals us in shroud... oh right its weaker than regeneration even when you crank up your healing power its still trash and you cant do damage if you use that...
    Oh right the rest of that traitline is also broken and does not account for true defenses or the lack of them...
    But you get tons of Might like every other class, some swiftness, and subpar protection up time.... minimal fury occasionally if you take curses... no boon sustain like firebrand or mesmer and ele either... hmmmmmmmmm

    Well kitten We got boon corruption... i guess that +1 = lack of every thing else. Because being able to corrupt boons is a big deal.. oh whats that it became a big deal because anet let boons get out of control on every other class except necromancer. The 1 tool that necro has that is special to them that no other class can use is considered to be more valuable than it really is because every other profession's boons got way out of control... oh also this tool has very minimal worth in the majority of pve even at end game level.

    ok but at least corrupting boons is super punishing though... some times.. boons applied constantly means its not easy to hit the boons you really want to hit in a critical moment to your survival in pvp or wvw. well fudge.....

    The circle of life around necro in a nutshell.

    Believe me, I did testing, Regeneration heals more than the might on shroud 2 blighter’s boon does, not just the death magic trait, funny how both heal in shroud traits are grandmasters.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Next balance patch:
    -no healing for necro at all, other than his healing skill and lifesteal, because necro is still too durable.
    -Nerfed necro dmg by 15% because being durable and doing dmg isn't allowed
    -buffed all other classes dmg by 20% because they couldn't kill the durable necro

    Regarding Necromancer healing, I found based on tests the Sylvari heal heals more over time than any necromancer heal, closest is well of blood but that is still 2k short, and then I did some more testing and found that Two of thieves' heals were over 7k with no healing power investment, compared to the approx. 6k from necro heal and 10k of warrior heal.

    From my tests I've concluded that Necromancer as it stands now has too many contradictory effects, lifesteal that requires healing power, which you can't use if you want to do damage, Conditions do not benefit soul eater at all so you can't use conditions to circumvent the power stat of lifesteal. And Death Shroud With it's, what I can only say are Inconsistent, healing mechanics, Some traits do, some traits don't as I've mentioned in the past - I don't want to repeat what I keep saying but I really feel that a full necromancer overhaul would probably be the best way to make necromancer Unique and not have any comparing, If it was so drastically different from everything, you couldn't compare as much as we can right now saying X heals more or Y is more tanky, Z does more damage.

    There is a trait for healing from conditions its called Parasitic Contagion Oh wait right this does not work in shroud either... nvm....
    Oh but wait we have a trait that heals us in shroud... oh right its weaker than regeneration even when you crank up your healing power its still trash and you cant do damage if you use that...
    Oh right the rest of that traitline is also broken and does not account for true defenses or the lack of them...
    But you get tons of Might like every other class, some swiftness, and subpar protection up time.... minimal fury occasionally if you take curses... no boon sustain like firebrand or mesmer and ele either... hmmmmmmmmm

    Well kitten We got boon corruption... i guess that +1 = lack of every thing else. Because being able to corrupt boons is a big deal.. oh whats that it became a big deal because anet let boons get out of control on every other class except necromancer. The 1 tool that necro has that is special to them that no other class can use is considered to be more valuable than it really is because every other profession's boons got way out of control... oh also this tool has very minimal worth in the majority of pve even at end game level.

    ok but at least corrupting boons is super punishing though... some times.. boons applied constantly means its not easy to hit the boons you really want to hit in a critical moment to your survival in pvp or wvw. well fudge.....

    The circle of life around necro in a nutshell.

    Believe me, I did testing, Regeneration heals more than the might on shroud 2 blighter’s boon does, not just the death magic trait, funny how both heal in shroud traits are grandmasters.

    Considering blighters boon can heal in packages its not as bad as you may get anywhere from 1 to 5+ might stacks on a given hit depending on your set up with spite/ runes/ sigils etc per auto attack even which results in a lot of hp and is good healing. The issue is that for end game pve no one is going to take blighters boon anymore. For several reasons. and not because its bad because in truth blighters boon is a solid trait its one of the few traits we have that maintains a in and out of shroud function (as more of them should)

    • 1: Shroud attacks without the stable speed increase that RO provides feels clunky and super outdated.
    • 2: The loss of 300 ferocity on a dps build is unacceptable.
    • 3: Shroud skills getting their cds cut for completing confirmed hits on auto chains is kinda nice it helps a lot but is likely not a massive killer to loose functionally That said we don't want to loose it for nothing.

    The only way people will run blighters again is if anet does 2 or possibly 3 things

    • 1: Remove the quickness from RO and make the base reaper shroud attacks faster perhaps 33% faster down from the 50% that quickness gives. This removes base shrouds clunky feeling, and opens up build diversity again
    • 2: Move the 300 ferocity bonus to one of the minor traits possibly even split it so that it gives 150 out of shroud and doubles to 300 in shroud. This makes it a base part of reaper opening build diversity again
    • 3: Turn RO into a new trait altogether that does something else. Maybe it modifies one of the reaper shroud skills to an upgraded skill (I personally say skill 2 or 5). Mechanic wise perhaps it does something to cut a portion of the cds on other reaper shroud skills slightly making it a ok trait to have but not a trait thats 100% required making it impossible to use the other traits and be acceptably viable in the communities eyes for said dps role that reaper is now tucked into.

    Yes giving reaper 150/300 feriocty baseline sounds insane but to be honest if they want reaper to do damage and have limited sustain fine then give us the damage properly. Otherwise give us the sustain properly in other core areas of necormancer that make sense. None of this stuff that scales on healing power when power builds dont take the healing power stat.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Was Testing this yesterday for a short time for roaming:
    https://tinyurl.com/y2tfley7

    Switched out wurm for poison cloud to counter the sheer amount of rangers I met, after one of them still oneshot me with one pewpew.

    The no healing at all is noticeable!

    Even if you had SE shorud heals, that ranger would have still one shotted you. There is a MASSIVE difference between sustain and tanking.

    The issue with your statement here is that almost every other class has at least one tool in some cases 2 or 3 tools to prevent this kind of thing form happening via blocks, evades, or invuln.
    Necro does not have that.

    That doesn't change what I said ... someone complaining about being 1 shotted has absolutely NOTHING to do with shroud healing because shroud healing would not address that problem.

    I don't think it's unreasonable that if people are going to complain about not having shroud heals, their complaints make some sense to begin with. If the issue is that Necros don't have blocks, evades or invuln ... that's a DIFFERENT issue that not being able to heal in shroud.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Next balance patch:
    -no healing for necro at all, other than his healing skill and lifesteal, because necro is still too durable.
    -Nerfed necro dmg by 15% because being durable and doing dmg isn't allowed
    -buffed all other classes dmg by 20% because they couldn't kill the durable necro

    Regarding Necromancer healing, I found based on tests the Sylvari heal heals more over time than any necromancer heal, closest is well of blood but that is still 2k short, and then I did some more testing and found that Two of thieves' heals were over 7k with no healing power investment, compared to the approx. 6k from necro heal and 10k of warrior heal.

    From my tests I've concluded that Necromancer as it stands now has too many contradictory effects, lifesteal that requires healing power, which you can't use if you want to do damage, Conditions do not benefit soul eater at all so you can't use conditions to circumvent the power stat of lifesteal. And Death Shroud With it's, what I can only say are Inconsistent, healing mechanics, Some traits do, some traits don't as I've mentioned in the past - I don't want to repeat what I keep saying but I really feel that a full necromancer overhaul would probably be the best way to make necromancer Unique and not have any comparing, If it was so drastically different from everything, you couldn't compare as much as we can right now saying X heals more or Y is more tanky, Z does more damage.

    There is a trait for healing from conditions its called Parasitic Contagion Oh wait right this does not work in shroud either... nvm....
    Oh but wait we have a trait that heals us in shroud... oh right its weaker than regeneration even when you crank up your healing power its still trash and you cant do damage if you use that...
    Oh right the rest of that traitline is also broken and does not account for true defenses or the lack of them...
    But you get tons of Might like every other class, some swiftness, and subpar protection up time.... minimal fury occasionally if you take curses... no boon sustain like firebrand or mesmer and ele either... hmmmmmmmmm

    Well kitten We got boon corruption... i guess that +1 = lack of every thing else. Because being able to corrupt boons is a big deal.. oh whats that it became a big deal because anet let boons get out of control on every other class except necromancer. The 1 tool that necro has that is special to them that no other class can use is considered to be more valuable than it really is because every other profession's boons got way out of control... oh also this tool has very minimal worth in the majority of pve even at end game level.

    ok but at least corrupting boons is super punishing though... some times.. boons applied constantly means its not easy to hit the boons you really want to hit in a critical moment to your survival in pvp or wvw. well fudge.....

    The circle of life around necro in a nutshell.

    And other classes have boon remove as well. Yes it's not corrupt, but does it really matter?
    Not really.
    There's nothing special about necro anymore other than it's a punching bag to every other class,
    has aoe spam, but still doesn't do as much dmg as an ele,
    Has a melee spec, that isnt anywhere near other professions melee specs in terms of durability.

    Even a freaking ele (that every ele main will complain about, that ele is still too weak lol) is more a durable frontliner than reaper.
    Can do more dmg, while being more tankier due to protection and the amount of dodges

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    The only way people will run blighters again is if anet does 2 or possibly 3 things

    • 1: Remove the quickness from RO and make the base reaper shroud attacks faster perhaps 33% faster down from the 50% that quickness gives. This removes base shrouds clunky feeling, and opens up build diversity again
    • 2: Move the 300 ferocity bonus to one of the minor traits possibly even split it so that it gives 150 out of shroud and doubles to 300 in shroud. This makes it a base part of reaper opening build diversity again
    • 3: Turn RO into a new trait altogether that does something else. Maybe it modifies one of the reaper shroud skills to an upgraded skill (I personally say skill 2 or 5). Mechanic wise perhaps it does something to cut a portion of the cds on other reaper shroud skills slightly making it a ok trait to have but not a trait thats 100% required making it impossible to use the other traits and be acceptably viable in the communities eyes for said dps role that reaper is now tucked into.

    Let me correct you: There is no way anyone will take a sustain trait in PvE unless it's a minor trait or it compete with 2 other sustain/utility traits.

    It's not a matter of where the ferocity or anything that RO have is, it's just a matter of priority in PvE end game. If you can just generate sligthly more damage in the encounter, you'll pay the price and not take the defensive trait. Even if RO was nerfed to uselessness people would take deathly chill before thay even think to take blighter boon. (This is what players were doing before RO became competitive after all)

    Sustain traits are taken in PvP or WvW for survivability not in PvE end game because they cannot be the most effective trait choice in an organized party unless the mechanism of the fight heavily emphasis player survivability and trivialize damage output. (Which is a design that neither the raiders nor the developpement team seem to want to explore)

    It is not that blighter boon is bad in PvE, it's just that it doesn't fill a need. It could be needed if the reaper were to tank the encounter, however what a group ask from a GW2 tank isn't something that the core necromancer is good at providing so it's better to use a profession that fit the need.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    It is not that blighter boon is bad in PvE, it's just that it doesn't fill a need. It could be needed if the reaper were to tank the encounter, however what a group ask from a GW2 tank isn't something that the core necromancer is good at providing so it's better to use a profession that fit the need.

    i mean i suppose. Regardless of if its pvp or pve the healing in shroud argument is still a hot topic for necomancer Right now people even still take RO in pvp because its boost to shroud attack speed acts as a better form of a sustain via offensive pressure over BB.

    So while you are some what correct from a pve only perspective from pvp my comment still stands. Even in pve people use to take BB when more sustain (in unorganized content) was required over the old RO granted alot of things have changed since then.

    I'm not going to agree with the idea that core necromancer is "good" at providing a tank role despite its higher durability than reaper. Still a far cry from being competitive with the standard options for tanks atm

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Next balance patch:
    -no healing for necro at all, other than his healing skill and lifesteal, because necro is still too durable.
    -Nerfed necro dmg by 15% because being durable and doing dmg isn't allowed
    -buffed all other classes dmg by 20% because they couldn't kill the durable necro

    Regarding Necromancer healing, I found based on tests the Sylvari heal heals more over time than any necromancer heal, closest is well of blood but that is still 2k short, and then I did some more testing and found that Two of thieves' heals were over 7k with no healing power investment, compared to the approx. 6k from necro heal and 10k of warrior heal.

    From my tests I've concluded that Necromancer as it stands now has too many contradictory effects, lifesteal that requires healing power, which you can't use if you want to do damage, Conditions do not benefit soul eater at all so you can't use conditions to circumvent the power stat of lifesteal. And Death Shroud With it's, what I can only say are Inconsistent, healing mechanics, Some traits do, some traits don't as I've mentioned in the past - I don't want to repeat what I keep saying but I really feel that a full necromancer overhaul would probably be the best way to make necromancer Unique and not have any comparing, If it was so drastically different from everything, you couldn't compare as much as we can right now saying X heals more or Y is more tanky, Z does more damage.

    There is a trait for healing from conditions its called Parasitic Contagion Oh wait right this does not work in shroud either... nvm....
    Oh but wait we have a trait that heals us in shroud... oh right its weaker than regeneration even when you crank up your healing power its still trash and you cant do damage if you use that...
    Oh right the rest of that traitline is also broken and does not account for true defenses or the lack of them...
    But you get tons of Might like every other class, some swiftness, and subpar protection up time.... minimal fury occasionally if you take curses... no boon sustain like firebrand or mesmer and ele either... hmmmmmmmmm

    Well kitten We got boon corruption... i guess that +1 = lack of every thing else. Because being able to corrupt boons is a big deal.. oh whats that it became a big deal because anet let boons get out of control on every other class except necromancer. The 1 tool that necro has that is special to them that no other class can use is considered to be more valuable than it really is because every other profession's boons got way out of control... oh also this tool has very minimal worth in the majority of pve even at end game level.

    ok but at least corrupting boons is super punishing though... some times.. boons applied constantly means its not easy to hit the boons you really want to hit in a critical moment to your survival in pvp or wvw. well fudge.....

    The circle of life around necro in a nutshell.

    And other classes have boon remove as well. Yes it's not corrupt, but does it really matter?
    Not really.
    There's nothing special about necro anymore other than it's a punching bag to every other class,
    has aoe spam, but still doesn't do as much dmg as an ele,
    Has a melee spec, that isnt anywhere near other professions melee specs in terms of durability.

    Even a freaking ele (that every ele main will complain about, that ele is still too weak lol) is more a durable frontliner than reaper.
    Can do more dmg, while being more tankier due to protection and the amount of dodges

    Where did the concept, that beyond the theme, the class needs to be 'special' somehow? Seems like another player-invented reason to justify their desires.

    Not being special doesn't justify any reason to change any class and there was never any indication from Anet that this 'uniqueness' for performance was a selling point either. Unless you play for performance reasons, you choose a class because of its theme. If you want the great things that Ele does better than Necro ... you know what you need to do. It's why you get choice to play whatever class you want in the first place ... and still do.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Next balance patch:
    -no healing for necro at all, other than his healing skill and lifesteal, because necro is still too durable.
    -Nerfed necro dmg by 15% because being durable and doing dmg isn't allowed
    -buffed all other classes dmg by 20% because they couldn't kill the durable necro

    Regarding Necromancer healing, I found based on tests the Sylvari heal heals more over time than any necromancer heal, closest is well of blood but that is still 2k short, and then I did some more testing and found that Two of thieves' heals were over 7k with no healing power investment, compared to the approx. 6k from necro heal and 10k of warrior heal.

    From my tests I've concluded that Necromancer as it stands now has too many contradictory effects, lifesteal that requires healing power, which you can't use if you want to do damage, Conditions do not benefit soul eater at all so you can't use conditions to circumvent the power stat of lifesteal. And Death Shroud With it's, what I can only say are Inconsistent, healing mechanics, Some traits do, some traits don't as I've mentioned in the past - I don't want to repeat what I keep saying but I really feel that a full necromancer overhaul would probably be the best way to make necromancer Unique and not have any comparing, If it was so drastically different from everything, you couldn't compare as much as we can right now saying X heals more or Y is more tanky, Z does more damage.

    There is a trait for healing from conditions its called Parasitic Contagion Oh wait right this does not work in shroud either... nvm....
    Oh but wait we have a trait that heals us in shroud... oh right its weaker than regeneration even when you crank up your healing power its still trash and you cant do damage if you use that...
    Oh right the rest of that traitline is also broken and does not account for true defenses or the lack of them...
    But you get tons of Might like every other class, some swiftness, and subpar protection up time.... minimal fury occasionally if you take curses... no boon sustain like firebrand or mesmer and ele either... hmmmmmmmmm

    Well kitten We got boon corruption... i guess that +1 = lack of every thing else. Because being able to corrupt boons is a big deal.. oh whats that it became a big deal because anet let boons get out of control on every other class except necromancer. The 1 tool that necro has that is special to them that no other class can use is considered to be more valuable than it really is because every other profession's boons got way out of control... oh also this tool has very minimal worth in the majority of pve even at end game level.

    ok but at least corrupting boons is super punishing though... some times.. boons applied constantly means its not easy to hit the boons you really want to hit in a critical moment to your survival in pvp or wvw. well fudge.....

    The circle of life around necro in a nutshell.

    And other classes have boon remove as well. Yes it's not corrupt, but does it really matter?
    Not really.
    There's nothing special about necro anymore other than it's a punching bag to every other class,
    has aoe spam, but still doesn't do as much dmg as an ele,
    Has a melee spec, that isnt anywhere near other professions melee specs in terms of durability.

    Even a freaking ele (that every ele main will complain about, that ele is still too weak lol) is more a durable frontliner than reaper.
    Can do more dmg, while being more tankier due to protection and the amount of dodges

    Where did the concept, that beyond the theme, the class needs to be 'special' somehow? Seems like another player-invented reason to justify their desires.

    Not being special doesn't justify any reason to change any class and there was never any indication from Anet that this 'uniqueness' for performance was a selling point either. Unless you play for performance reasons, you choose a class because of its theme. If you want the great things that Ele does better than Necro ... you know what you need to do. It's why you get choice to play whatever class you want in the first place ... and still do.

    I am unsure if it is just me, but many professions I like the skills on I despise the theme, while a small few I like the theme on and dislike most skills on, if I am not the only one, this may be why people want Necromancer to be stronger, as they enjoy the theme but it is just outclassed in all aspects meaning you can’t use it for situations you may want to.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Next balance patch:
    -no healing for necro at all, other than his healing skill and lifesteal, because necro is still too durable.
    -Nerfed necro dmg by 15% because being durable and doing dmg isn't allowed
    -buffed all other classes dmg by 20% because they couldn't kill the durable necro

    Regarding Necromancer healing, I found based on tests the Sylvari heal heals more over time than any necromancer heal, closest is well of blood but that is still 2k short, and then I did some more testing and found that Two of thieves' heals were over 7k with no healing power investment, compared to the approx. 6k from necro heal and 10k of warrior heal.

    From my tests I've concluded that Necromancer as it stands now has too many contradictory effects, lifesteal that requires healing power, which you can't use if you want to do damage, Conditions do not benefit soul eater at all so you can't use conditions to circumvent the power stat of lifesteal. And Death Shroud With it's, what I can only say are Inconsistent, healing mechanics, Some traits do, some traits don't as I've mentioned in the past - I don't want to repeat what I keep saying but I really feel that a full necromancer overhaul would probably be the best way to make necromancer Unique and not have any comparing, If it was so drastically different from everything, you couldn't compare as much as we can right now saying X heals more or Y is more tanky, Z does more damage.

    There is a trait for healing from conditions its called Parasitic Contagion Oh wait right this does not work in shroud either... nvm....
    Oh but wait we have a trait that heals us in shroud... oh right its weaker than regeneration even when you crank up your healing power its still trash and you cant do damage if you use that...
    Oh right the rest of that traitline is also broken and does not account for true defenses or the lack of them...
    But you get tons of Might like every other class, some swiftness, and subpar protection up time.... minimal fury occasionally if you take curses... no boon sustain like firebrand or mesmer and ele either... hmmmmmmmmm

    Well kitten We got boon corruption... i guess that +1 = lack of every thing else. Because being able to corrupt boons is a big deal.. oh whats that it became a big deal because anet let boons get out of control on every other class except necromancer. The 1 tool that necro has that is special to them that no other class can use is considered to be more valuable than it really is because every other profession's boons got way out of control... oh also this tool has very minimal worth in the majority of pve even at end game level.

    ok but at least corrupting boons is super punishing though... some times.. boons applied constantly means its not easy to hit the boons you really want to hit in a critical moment to your survival in pvp or wvw. well fudge.....

    The circle of life around necro in a nutshell.

    And other classes have boon remove as well. Yes it's not corrupt, but does it really matter?
    Not really.
    There's nothing special about necro anymore other than it's a punching bag to every other class,
    has aoe spam, but still doesn't do as much dmg as an ele,
    Has a melee spec, that isnt anywhere near other professions melee specs in terms of durability.

    Even a freaking ele (that every ele main will complain about, that ele is still too weak lol) is more a durable frontliner than reaper.
    Can do more dmg, while being more tankier due to protection and the amount of dodges

    Where did the concept, that beyond the theme, the class needs to be 'special' somehow? Seems like another player-invented reason to justify their desires.

    Not being special doesn't justify any reason to change any class and there was never any indication from Anet that this 'uniqueness' for performance was a selling point either. Unless you play for performance reasons, you choose a class because of its theme. If you want the great things that Ele does better than Necro ... you know what you need to do. It's why you get choice to play whatever class you want in the first place ... and still do.

    I am unsure if it is just me, but many professions I like the skills on I despise the theme, while a small few I like the theme on and dislike most skills on, if I am not the only one, this may be why people want Necromancer to be stronger, as they enjoy the theme but it is just outclassed in all aspects meaning you can’t use it for situations you may want to.

    That's fair, but it's really important to under that theme matters and clearly, not just to Anet ... players care about it to.

    See, the idea that the class is special or unique in something it does isn't a performance-based characteristic, it's theme-based one. So when people use it to justify changes to a classes performance, the fire alarm goes off. Sure we all our love our necros because it's an awesome theme ... until you start counting the beans. That's not an Anet problem that people count beans too much when they don't have to. If you want to count beans, then counting beans is how choose your profession ... or switch when the profession you have loses its beans.

    The irony is that if people had thematically-driven reasons for classes to be changed, they might be more likely to get things they want.

  • dceptaconroy.7928dceptaconroy.7928 Member ✭✭✭

    Understanding the true meaning of the class description is vital in discerning the nature of a classes theme. So when said class is described as 'durable' or 'highly mobile' you can take more of a snapshot of what you will receive other than pure looks. A simple set of sliders might help beginners in seeing how class x fairs against others at base?. So if thematically this class is being touted as durable perhaps stipulating that - 'when entering shroud' you take on that description rather than it being an open ended statement. That's the thing our durability as we know it is not that of a front line fighter at all. As it goes imagine a soldier/knight saying just hold on a sec I'll just take a couple of seconds before we can engage in a fight.. see that's just crackers. But -- a front liner is funnily enough also seen as fodder. You throw them out first with less care than you do with others. So in that sense we are sticking to theme.. we are fodder.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @dceptaconroy.7928 said:
    Understanding the true meaning of the class description is vital in discerning the nature of a classes theme. So when said class is described as 'durable' or 'highly mobile' you can take more of a snapshot of what you will receive other than pure looks. A simple set of sliders might help beginners in seeing how class x fairs against others at base?. So if thematically this class is being touted as durable perhaps stipulating that - 'when entering shroud' you take on that description rather than it being an open ended statement. That's the thing our durability as we know it is not that of a front line fighter at all. As it goes imagine a soldier/knight saying just hold on a sec I'll just take a couple of seconds before we can engage in a fight.. see that's just crackers. But -- a front liner is funnily enough also seen as fodder. You throw them out first with less care than you do with others. So in that sense we are sticking to theme.. we are fodder.

    Don’t Female Norn necros when summoning a minion say “Go Fodder, Go”, which technically implies we aren’t fodder but are supposed to control it, issue though us there aren’t really any “tactical” things about necromancer for this to go off.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2019

    Necro does have special themes:
    1. Many foolish pets
    2. Many undesirable fields and no good finishers
    3. A single immunity skill that takes damage, requires charging, allows spill-over damage when exahsted, and prevents healing

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭

    I just stopped doing Fractals on the reaper that does significant damage with lesser sustain.

    I guess they didn't want Reaper to be an option for end-game content.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    I just stopped doing Fractals on the reaper that does significant damage with lesser sustain.

    I guess they didn't want Reaper to be an option for end-game content.

    What you are demonstrating here isn't a problem with Reaper ... it's a problem with your level of play. Reaper is still very much an endgame option.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    I just stopped doing Fractals on the reaper that does significant damage with lesser sustain.

    I guess they didn't want Reaper to be an option for end-game content.

    What you are demonstrating here isn't a problem with Reaper ... it's a problem with your level of play. Reaper is still very much an endgame option.

    I am sorry, but this was an ignorant statement.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    I just stopped doing Fractals on the reaper that does significant damage with lesser sustain.

    I guess they didn't want Reaper to be an option for end-game content.

    What you are demonstrating here isn't a problem with Reaper ... it's a problem with your level of play. Reaper is still very much an endgame option.

    I am sorry, but this was an ignorant statement.

    I mean he's not wrong here. No where did you state you were kicked from a party for being a reaper, but rather you just don't want to play it anymore. As much as I hated the removal of the shroud healing from soul eater, reaper is still fine for playing t4s. It just lacks the convenience now sadly.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    I just stopped doing Fractals on the reaper that does significant damage with lesser sustain.

    I guess they didn't want Reaper to be an option for end-game content.

    What you are demonstrating here isn't a problem with Reaper ... it's a problem with your level of play. Reaper is still very much an endgame option.

    I am sorry, but this was an ignorant statement.

    No it's not ... no one EVER took a Reaper in their team because of heals in SE.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    People should know by now :

    Anet balance philosophy isn't to "balance" the game so that gameplay is healthy, no.

    Anet balance philosophy is to throw a random curveball every 3 months to keep things interesting.

    People are evidently getting sick of their random balance whims, which is why yu see many people taking a break from Gw2.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As we approach the 7 year anniversary, I think back at all the time Necro, any flavor, has been allowed to accept heals while in shroud and think, "It looks like this is one of the more firm design rules for the profession as the 'bug' was fixed within 3 months."

  • Methuselah.4376Methuselah.4376 Member ✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    I just stopped doing Fractals on the reaper that does significant damage with lesser sustain.

    I guess they didn't want Reaper to be an option for end-game content.

    What you are demonstrating here isn't a problem with Reaper ... it's a problem with your level of play. Reaper is still very much an endgame option.

    I am sorry, but this was an ignorant statement.

    No it's not. I still raid and do T4s with my power Reaper and I do VERY well. If you depended on 5% healing in shroud to play reaper then:

    • what were you doing before SE was initially changed to give you that healing?
    • you clearly are facetanking stuff. A properly played power Reaper does not face tank anything.

    So no it is not an ignorant comment, you just need to learn how to play the class better.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭

    With all due respect, Reaper should not be used in top performing raids or T4 speed runs. Reaper is inherently selfish with buffs. The class DPS is inferior to others. You can be the top performing Reaper and be significantly less effective than a great, but not top performing warrior or guardian. This is the reality.

    I trust my own analysis which is also backed up from high end Raiding/T4 guilds and websites. While not my favorite, Metabattle.com validates my claim.

    Raid Recommend: No Necro
    Fractal Recommended: No Necro

    I can do more DPS and support my team more by playing a Warrior or Guardian. For organized groups, the Necro is inferior. That being said, it is good in non-organized groups.... It can do T4...sure. It will never be optimal in its current form. With or without the added sustain. The added sustain was nice, and justified me playing it more.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2019

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    With all due respect, Reaper should not be used in top performing raids or T4 speed runs. Reaper is inherently selfish with buffs. The class DPS is inferior to others. You can be the top performing Reaper and be significantly less effective than a great, but not top performing warrior or guardian. This is the reality.

    I trust my own analysis which is also backed up from high end Raiding/T4 guilds and websites. While not my favorite, Metabattle.com validates my claim.

    Raid Recommend: No Necro
    Fractal Recommended: No Necro

    I can do more DPS and support my team more by playing a Warrior or Guardian. For organized groups, the Necro is inferior. That being said, it is good in non-organized groups.... It can do T4...sure. It will never be optimal in its current form. With or without the added sustain. The added sustain was nice, and justified me playing it more.

    And none of this has anything to do with SE having a heal in shroud or not.

    Dude, you are all over the place here. Your first post was this:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    I just stopped doing Fractals on the reaper that does significant damage with lesser sustain.

    I guess they didn't want Reaper to be an option for end-game content.

    So why did you make a post lamenting the fact that you had to stop using your Reaper if you support the idea that Reaper shouldn't be used in top performing raids or T4 speed runs in the first place? That doesn't make sense.

    Again, there is thing called 'relationships' ... and it REALLY helps that one exists between the thing you don't like and the point you are making.

    For example ... Necro being inferior to other classes ... that doesn't have a relationship to SE healing in shroud. But there you go ... it's your whole point.

  • Methuselah.4376Methuselah.4376 Member ✭✭✭

    Just because Reaper isn't optimal doesn't mean it can't carry its own weight. This is what people seem to fail to understand. Sure your highest dps ceiling is 8k behing current condi sword weaver (another selfish role) but you are also able to take much more punishment. This isn't to mean you are face tanking, but a strike that can kill an ele won't kill a necro allowing that necro to be healed up and continue doing damage without disrupting the flow of the fight.

    You can't keep measuring things by saying that if it's not huge dps it is automatically garbage. Reaper has a nice burst and shines with adds. 31.2k is very respectable for a class that if properly played can't die. This is what you keep overlooking. In PvE, a huge health pool does make a difference as well as learning to dodge. Granted in PvP this advantage quickly evaporates. And before poeple say that other classes have invulnerability and blocks and so on so their damage should be lower, bear in mind you would need to trait/use skills that would lower your dps. The only real exception to this is mirage, which has always been cancer.

    If you don't like Reaper, fine move on. But don't come saying it's not viable for end game content, because it is.

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    With all due respect, Reaper should not be used in top performing raids or T4 speed runs. Reaper is inherently selfish with buffs. The class DPS is inferior to others. You can be the top performing Reaper and be significantly less effective than a great, but not top performing warrior or guardian. This is the reality.

    I trust my own analysis which is also backed up from high end Raiding/T4 guilds and websites. While not my favorite, Metabattle.com validates my claim.

    Raid Recommend: No Necro
    Fractal Recommended: No Necro

    I can do more DPS and support my team more by playing a Warrior or Guardian. For organized groups, the Necro is inferior. That being said, it is good in non-organized groups.... It can do T4...sure. It will never be optimal in its current form. With or without the added sustain. The added sustain was nice, and justified me playing it more.

    How is this in congruence with what you were saying? And you still didn't answer my question about how you coped before SE was given the 5% healing. If you wanna be a sheep and follow the "oNLy tOp deEpZ fOr fUn Ernd ViAbilLity" fine go ahead. And if you're more content playing a role that can offer buffs as a dps, good for you. But there are plenty of other dps classes that don't provide buffs in their dps meta build.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Methuselah.4376 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    I just stopped doing Fractals on the reaper that does significant damage with lesser sustain.

    I guess they didn't want Reaper to be an option for end-game content.

    What you are demonstrating here isn't a problem with Reaper ... it's a problem with your level of play. Reaper is still very much an endgame option.

    I am sorry, but this was an ignorant statement.

    No it's not. I still raid and do T4s with my power Reaper and I do VERY well. If you depended on 5% healing in shroud to play reaper then:

    • what were you doing before SE was initially changed to give you that healing?
    • you clearly are facetanking stuff. A properly played power Reaper does not face tank anything.

    So no it is not an ignorant comment, you just need to learn how to play the class better.

    Or play another class and be more useful.
    Yes reaper isn't as bad as it used to be, but it's not very good as well.
    It's just good.

    And we do take reapers with us in raids. But most of them sit at 7-10k DPS while all other DPS are doing 17-24k

    I do more than that as well, more than the 7-10k, but you cannot reach well played other classes.

    Out of all the reapers we took with us, only one managed to outdps me, and only at VG (did whole w1, and I was kite at sab) where i, as a dh, had to rezz several times, while the reaper did only dmg, if I remember correctly.

    So for god's sake. Reaper is okayish, but not as good as some people think or try to defend it.

    Matchup knowledge is also key to play a good reaper, and horse isn't a good matchup.

    Why do you play reaper, when you could be more useful to the group, by putting the same effort into another class, as you put into necro.

    Necros dps IS lower than almost all other builds. Which means, lower DPS = more mechanics to do = more (potential) dead/downed people= more likely to fail the next mechanic as well

  • Methuselah.4376Methuselah.4376 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Methuselah.4376 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    I just stopped doing Fractals on the reaper that does significant damage with lesser sustain.

    I guess they didn't want Reaper to be an option for end-game content.

    What you are demonstrating here isn't a problem with Reaper ... it's a problem with your level of play. Reaper is still very much an endgame option.

    I am sorry, but this was an ignorant statement.

    No it's not. I still raid and do T4s with my power Reaper and I do VERY well. If you depended on 5% healing in shroud to play reaper then:

    • what were you doing before SE was initially changed to give you that healing?
    • you clearly are facetanking stuff. A properly played power Reaper does not face tank anything.

    So no it is not an ignorant comment, you just need to learn how to play the class better.

    Or play another class and be more useful.
    Yes reaper isn't as bad as it used to be, but it's not very good as well.
    It's just good.

    And we do take reapers with us in raids. But most of them sit at 7-10k DPS while all other DPS are doing 17-24k

    I do more than that as well, more than the 7-10k, but you cannot reach well played other classes.

    Out of all the reapers we took with us, only one managed to outdps me, and only at VG (did whole w1, and I was kite at sab) where i, as a dh, had to rezz several times, while the reaper did only dmg, if I remember correctly.

    So for god's sake. Reaper is okayish, but not as good as some people think or try to defend it.

    Matchup knowledge is also key to play a good reaper, and horse isn't a good matchup.

    Why do you play reaper, when you could be more useful to the group, by putting the same effort into another class, as you put into necro.

    Necros dps IS lower than almost all other builds. Which means, lower DPS = more mechanics to do = more (potential) dead/downed people= more likely to fail the next mechanic as well

    I never said necro is the best dps or that there aren't better dps options. But I am very annoyed at this attitude that necro is automatically kitten. I average 18-24k dps myself in raid situations and have met much better Reapers than myself. Problem is that this class attracts a lot of new players/lazy players and as such everyone then gets painted with the same brush.

    My ultimate point is that if you enjoy playing this class and are good at it, you will not be a handicap to your squad. I play this game for fun, and I fully understand that people won't like certain classes. But I do not like it either when I am being "encouraged" to play other professions that I may not enjoy to satisfy the self-proclaimed elite. That is not to say that I do not raid with other professions, but my ultimate point is that reaper can now carry its own and is no longer the active hindrance it was a year ago.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Why do you play reaper, when you could be more useful to the group, by putting the same effort into another class, as you put into necro.

    Oh I know the answer to this one ... because I can play how I want and the threshold for success if low. In otherwords, you don't need to be more useful.

    I mean, if my team wants to pay me to play how they want ... I'm all for that to. People do it all the time for raid selling, etc ...

  • Morde.3158Morde.3158 Member ✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Methuselah.4376 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    I just stopped doing Fractals on the reaper that does significant damage with lesser sustain.

    I guess they didn't want Reaper to be an option for end-game content.

    What you are demonstrating here isn't a problem with Reaper ... it's a problem with your level of play. Reaper is still very much an endgame option.

    I am sorry, but this was an ignorant statement.

    No it's not. I still raid and do T4s with my power Reaper and I do VERY well. If you depended on 5% healing in shroud to play reaper then:

    • what were you doing before SE was initially changed to give you that healing?
    • you clearly are facetanking stuff. A properly played power Reaper does not face tank anything.

    So no it is not an ignorant comment, you just need to learn how to play the class better.

    Or play another class and be more useful.
    Yes reaper isn't as bad as it used to be, but it's not very good as well.
    It's just good.

    And we do take reapers with us in raids. But most of them sit at 7-10k DPS while all other DPS are doing 17-24k

    I do more than that as well, more than the 7-10k, but you cannot reach well played other classes.

    Out of all the reapers we took with us, only one managed to outdps me, and only at VG (did whole w1, and I was kite at sab) where i, as a dh, had to rezz several times, while the reaper did only dmg, if I remember correctly.

    So for god's sake. Reaper is okayish, but not as good as some people think or try to defend it.

    Matchup knowledge is also key to play a good reaper, and horse isn't a good matchup.

    Why do you play reaper, when you could be more useful to the group, by putting the same effort into another class, as you put into necro.

    Necros dps IS lower than almost all other builds. Which means, lower DPS = more mechanics to do = more (potential) dead/downed people= more likely to fail the next mechanic as well

    in the current wvw meta you will never be able to 17-27k dps vs players maybe 21k vs an npc. There is nothing wrong with reapers damage output they fixed that part a while back the only classes that would out dps a necro in wvw on even situtaions would be a staff ele but thats only for a short period of time because of retal. Rev could out dps a necro in a zerg that also depends if hes getting good hammer bombs but the hammer is not mechanic besides the auto attack its more bursty. Sword rev I think out dps reaper but you will never be able to auto a zerg with sword long enough without dieing. If we talking wvw right now the problem with wvw right now is a returning problem is that with every expansion everyone is harder to kill to the point where players cant do anything alone anymore vs certain groups that can abuse all of the sustain that anet has given to them. Gotta love that people stopped using resistance in the zerg now Im getting condi bombed not by condis that kill but, by condis that hinder movement. So if I'm not in squad I wont help them at all just spec to keep myself alive.

  • Morde.3158Morde.3158 Member ✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    With all due respect, Reaper should not be used in top performing raids or T4 speed runs. Reaper is inherently selfish with buffs. The class DPS is inferior to others. You can be the top performing Reaper and be significantly less effective than a great, but not top performing warrior or guardian. This is the reality.

    I trust my own analysis which is also backed up from high end Raiding/T4 guilds and websites. While not my favorite, Metabattle.com validates my claim.

    Raid Recommend: No Necro
    Fractal Recommended: No Necro

    I can do more DPS and support my team more by playing a Warrior or Guardian. For organized groups, the Necro is inferior. That being said, it is good in non-organized groups.... It can do T4...sure. It will never be optimal in its current form. With or without the added sustain. The added sustain was nice, and justified me playing it more.

    No Reaper dps isnt inferior to others it just needs shroud cooldown again so it can get back into shroud to do the dps but the @ArenaNet Team.4819 doesn't understand this part or is just ignoring it. Reaper can get 98% increased damage from traits alone in pve and its a little bit less in wvw and might nor vulnerability condition is not added into this 98%. You can take off 20% before the target is at 50% hp but vulnerability can fix that. I have been playing this game since launch I really don't care for pve but I cant let you talk sideways about necro. I do agree that necro is a pvp class and shouldnt be brought into pve but what I said about the damage still stand also people need to understand the difference between burst and dps.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Reaper has a design feature where its highest dps is either during its defensive transform or spinning like a top using one button.

    Arenanet really needs to take a step back and think about that.

    Right now, Scourge has a solid place in PUG support. That is what is good about Necro. Otherwise, bring something else. Neither core nor Reaper have the dps or utility to make them really desirable for end-game co-op PvE but simply boosting dps would unbalance competitive modes and make open world even more ROFL-easy.

    Fix Death Magic so it provides good group support (boon share, condi management) and delete the mandatory toughness in minor Armored Shroud so the specialization does not automatically mess with aggro control.

    Core and Reaper dps do not need increasing if group support is even half as useful as barriers are for Scourge.

    Also, please reread the first paragraph, Arenanet.

  • @Methuselah.4376 said:
    In PvE, a huge health pool does make a difference as well as learning to dodge.

    Wow, and another one who wants to keep that stigma alive! You just said yourself that a bad power reaper is one that is facetanking damage. If you're really a good player, a "huge" (as you put it) health pool is worth pretty much nothing, cause you can actually block/dodge/evade/invuln/reflect infinite amounts of damage compared to that lovely "huge" but finite health pool you are so fond about. And your claim about other classes having to specifically trait/equip and sacrifice DPS, is just "bovine manure": many classes have it in their core class mechanics and/or weapon/utility skills even. Hell, even the Weaver has a few available, without sacrificing DPS.
    And if you really enjoy facetanking dmg, I opt you to choose higher Armor Ratings above HP, cause it has a much better conversion rate compared to a light armor class. Oh and all these higher innate armor classes all happen to have several significantly higher DPS builds available and you are more useful to your team as well!

    @Methuselah.4376 said:
    My ultimate point is that if you enjoy playing this class and are good at it, you will not be a handicap to your squad. I play this game for fun, and I fully understand that people won't like certain classes. But I do not like it either when I am being "encouraged" to play other professions that I may not enjoy to satisfy the self-proclaimed elite.

    I feel your pain, and we all do in this subforum, but you're barking up the wrong tree here! There is only a very small percentage of the GW2 community that is visiting this forum, and there's even less that's reading your post, and probably even less that would still give a d*mn about your statement after reading it. So you're not going to change a whole or part of a community with posts like these.
    There's actually only one team that can do something about this, and that's ANet's balance team! I still have SOME hope that they actually read the forums once in a while. And then it doesn't really help that you with a lot of others on these forums come up with that ageing old fable of the Necro with it's "huge" health pool (or _"second"_ health pool: how many times I've heard that one before, although you're utterly useless if you use the shroud as 2nd health pool, but who cares, right?), and it being such a "huge" advantage in the PvE endgame: which it literally is NOT! And if you're really still think it is, you're playing the (PvE end-)game wrong!

  • Methuselah.4376Methuselah.4376 Member ✭✭✭

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Methuselah.4376 said:
    In PvE, a huge health pool does make a difference as well as learning to dodge.

    Wow, and another one who wants to keep that stigma alive! You just said yourself that a bad power reaper is one that is facetanking damage. If you're really a good player, a "huge" (as you put it) health pool is worth pretty much nothing, cause you can actually block/dodge/evade/invuln/reflect infinite amounts of damage compared to that lovely "huge" but finite health pool you are so fond about. And your claim about other classes having to specifically trait/equip and sacrifice DPS, is just "bovine manure": many classes have it in their core class mechanics and/or weapon/utility skills even. Hell, even the Weaver has a few available, without sacrificing DPS.
    And if you really enjoy facetanking dmg, I opt you to choose higher Armor Ratings above HP, cause it has a much better conversion rate compared to a light armor class. Oh and all these higher innate armor classes all happen to have several significantly higher DPS builds available and you are more useful to your team as well!

    @Methuselah.4376 said:
    My ultimate point is that if you enjoy playing this class and are good at it, you will not be a handicap to your squad. I play this game for fun, and I fully understand that people won't like certain classes. But I do not like it either when I am being "encouraged" to play other professions that I may not enjoy to satisfy the self-proclaimed elite.

    I feel your pain, and we all do in this subforum, but you're barking up the wrong tree here! There is only a very small percentage of the GW2 community that is visiting this forum, and there's even less that's reading your post, and probably even less that would still give a d*mn about your statement after reading it. So you're not going to change a whole or part of a community with posts like these.
    There's actually only one team that can do something about this, and that's ANet's balance team! I still have SOME hope that they actually read the forums once in a while. And then it doesn't really help that you with a lot of others on these forums come up with that ageing old fable of the Necro with it's "huge" health pool (or _"second"_ health pool: how many times I've heard that one before, although you're utterly useless if you use the shroud as 2nd health pool, but who cares, right?), and it being such a "huge" advantage in the PvE endgame: which it literally is NOT! And if you're really still think it is, you're playing the (PvE end-)game wrong!

    You're accusation is entirely misplaced. What I meant by having a large health being a good thing is this: ticking aura damage from boss, which can easily kill an elementalist, is less a threat; the attack that does land which can do 7-10k damage will still leave you with half your health and so on. Facetanking is when you actively take damage and not bothering to avoid it. Entirely different from being able to handle that unavoidable blow or aura damage. Also if you read carefully, no where did I say that necro's health pool is a huge advantage, just that it does make a difference.

    I do not know why you felt that you could come at me as if I am part of the problem. So take your misplaced anger, cover it in butter and shove it up your bovine manure producer.

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