What is your opinion about Jormag's gender?

[Dayra.7405]

@"Brimstone.3807" said:First there was dragon's stand. Next there was dragonfall. Finally we'll see dragon's junk. Thanks Anet!

I am more for "Dragon's Thaw" :)

[yann.1946]

@Dashingsteel.3410 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Dashingsteel.3410 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dashingsteel.3410 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Warkind.6745" said:Humanizing the elder dragons was a bad idea overall. First having them talk, and now assigning them genders has just removed any intrigue or fear of the unknown they could have inspired.

Technically, Elder Dragons were officially neither male nor female back in 2010. Before people cared about all this political view kitten.

Elder Dragons had concept of strategy and mental process since 2010. And Elder Dragons were communicating with Tyrians since 2007 (Svanir says "Hello").

BTW, making something interactive on a sapient level and having emotions is not really humanizing. There's a lot of room between "human" (both intelligent and emotional), "robot" (intelligent but emotionless), "animalistic" (emotional but non-intelligent), and "mindlessness" (neither emotional nor intelligent).

@Dashingsteel.3410 said:Can't let the story get in the way of the woke agenda....

The only reason why the Elder Dragons' gender is being brought up, is because the playerbase asked devs about it. Nothing political behind it all. But I guess that won't stop people from kitten about a non-issue.

So Anet made sure to include it in their living world magazine...….

Because people kept asking/talking about it. So they put it in an official source.

@"NanoEliteSixSixSix.8935" said:Jormag being a dragon and all that, but Anet could still surprise usbwith a humanoid form somewhere down the line

Like they did with both Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik.

They are trying to normalize the term non binary

Is their something wrong with the term?I am not from the USA so I don't really know why saying non binary is such a problem.

Whew, so here's the nutshell on why the term is controversial.

Full disclosure, I may, or may not agree with the following. I'm not putting this dog in the fight for my own gain, but to explain it.

Humans, are a gender binary species, meaning the species requires two sexes for reproduction. We do not know of any gender trinary species, meaning three biological sexes are required for reproduction. And anything that does not have gender distinctions, tends to reproduce via mitosis.

So, to the left, non-binary obviously applies to the gender-norms produced by the evolution of society, which we should, of course have a choice about.

To the right, the gender-norms produced by society are a product of human evolution (or god, depending on your own personal view) and thus to claim the term non-binary in thier view is a rejection of the most basic facts of biology.

Bassicly the two sides have a different answer to the chicken or the egg question. "which came first the gender or the sex?" (don't actually answer this, we need not fight here)

The terminology is the battleground. (dumb as that sounds.) if the terms are normalized, then it becomes harder to do science. (see bill c17 from Canada... I think that's the one) if the terms are not normalized, then lots of well meaning innocent people will suffer riticule.

So the use, or lack of use, of a term like non-binary is throwing down the political gauntlet.

So I guess if they said gender less for example their would have been no outcry.But because non binary (which would apply equally well if jormag is gender less) has a political meaning attached to it people are against it.

That seems a little silly to me but wathever I guess.

The c17 I found talked about migration so I don't really get why the exeptence of the word could make it harder to do science.Could you explain that part?Are you talking about surveys or something?

non binary and genderless are not the same thing...… non binary can be used as an umbrella term, encompassing many gender identities that don't fit into the male-female binary...….. genderless means the person does not identify anywhere along the male/female spectrum.

After all that, I really don't care how Jormag identifies.... I would rather know what Jormag actually is.... Male, female, hermaphrodite or asexual.

We'll aren't the people who are against the term the ones who don't believe in more the 2 genders?

Or did I misread that?

So wouldn't non binary be equivalent to gender less for that group?

[BrokenGlass.9356]

Yeah, I was totally wrong about c17. I honestly don't remember the name of the law. But tldr, it's a hate speech law in Canada, which, in effort to protect transgendered folks from offensive speech made it illegal to reference the most basic scientific facts about evolutionary biology. Saying a completely statistically true statement like "on average men are 30% stronger in the upper body than women." can get you legally penalized. (would have to reread to get the specific penalties, but I don't live in Canada so...) the reason for this is that some biological men identify as women. And some biological women identify as men. So... Regardless of how you, the reader personally feel about whether or not you can in fact be biologically one, and identify as the other is up to you.

But this has the net effect that if an evolutionary psychologist was to study say, 'gender based market trends in relation to seasonal changes'. Then every finding of that imaginary study, whatever it is, if it at all supports the idea that, 'biological men and biological women behave differently in the marketplace', and the reason is in any way tied to our evolution as a sexually dymorphic species... Now the results of a valid market research study, are in the eyes of the law, hate speech.

While the law isn't written to target scientists in this way... And was written to protect a bunch of innocent people from reticule. But it's been interpreted in several uncomfortable ways since it was passed.

If your interested here, I recommend reading the opinions of the extremists on both sides. (buckle up) and then going to YouTube and finding thinkers you trust who've weighed in. There's just a lot here on this one.

[yann.1946]

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:Yeah, I was totally wrong about c17. I honestly don't remember the name of the law. But tldr, it's a hate speech law in Canada, which, in effort to protect transgendered folks from offensive speech made it illegal to reference the most basic scientific facts about evolutionary biology. Saying a completely statistically true statement like "on average men are 30% stronger in the upper body than women." can get you legally penalized. (would have to reread to get the specific penalties, but I don't live in Canada so...) the reason for this is that some biological men identify as women. And some biological women identify as men. So... Regardless of how you, the reader personally feel about whether or not you can in fact be biologically one, and identify as the other is up to you.

But this has the net effect that if an evolutionary psychologist was to study say, 'gender based market trends in relation to seasonal changes'. Then every finding of that imaginary study, whatever it is, if it at all supports the idea that, 'biological men and biological women behave differently in the marketplace', and the reason is in any way tied to our evolution as a sexually dymorphic species... Now the results of a valid market research study, are in the eyes of the law, hate speech.

While the law isn't written to target scientists in this way... And was written to protect a bunch of innocent people from reticule. But it's been interpreted in several uncomfortable ways since it was passed.

If your interested here, I recommend reading the opinions of the extremists on both sides. (buckle up) and then going to YouTube and finding thinkers you trust who've weighed in. There's just a lot here on this one.

Can you give me an example of a case where this caused problems. This tread makes me want to abstain of jumping in the middle of this conversation.

I'd rather have an example to work with first. :)

[Blude.6812]

Didn't vote. Poll needs a 4th option. I would have checked Doesn't matter/don't care.

[kasoki.5180]

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:Yeah, I was totally wrong about c17. I honestly don't remember the name of the law. But tldr, it's a hate speech law in Canada, which, in effort to protect transgendered folks from offensive speech made it illegal to reference the most basic scientific facts about evolutionary biology. Saying a completely statistically true statement like "on average men are 30% stronger in the upper body than women." can get you legally penalized. (would have to reread to get the specific penalties, but I don't live in Canada so...) the reason for this is that some biological men identify as women. And some biological women identify as men. So... Regardless of how you, the reader personally feel about whether or not you can in fact be biologically one, and identify as the other is up to you.

But this has the net effect that if an evolutionary psychologist was to study say, 'gender based market trends in relation to seasonal changes'. Then every finding of that imaginary study, whatever it is, if it at all supports the idea that, 'biological men and biological women behave differently in the marketplace', and the reason is in any way tied to our evolution as a sexually dymorphic species... Now the results of a valid market research study, are in the eyes of the law, hate speech.

While the law isn't written to target scientists in this way... And was written to protect a bunch of innocent people from reticule. But it's been interpreted in several uncomfortable ways since it was passed.

If your interested here, I recommend reading the opinions of the extremists on both sides. (buckle up) and then going to YouTube and finding thinkers you trust who've weighed in. There's just a lot here on this one.

I am not sure where did you get this info.

I never heard that law was applied in such a way nor that it was its intent.

Also, if anything I would NOT recommend reading opinion of extremists and then going to watch YouTube videos from people you already agree with. I would recommend you find boring articles, written by boring experts and scholars and published in boring academic journals.

[Mandatory.6590]

@Blude.6812 said:Didn't vote. Poll needs a 4th option. I would have checked Doesn't matter/don't care.

Cared enough to post something though.

[dragonkain.3984]

Stop wondering and thinking about what dragons have between their hind legs you pervs...It shouldn't matter to any of you!

[Blude.6812]

@Mandatory.6590 said:

@Blude.6812 said:Didn't vote. Poll needs a 4th option. I would have checked Doesn't matter/don't care.

Cared enough to post something though.But I do have the right to look at the post when it caught my attention and when I found the poll lacking in the options offered, commented on it.

I am sorry that offended you and made you care enough to insult.

[Taygus.4571]

@dragonkain.3984 said:Stop wondering and thinking about what dragons have between their hind legs you pervs...It shouldn't matter to any of you!

non binary, is identity...its a social construct. Has nothing to do with the dragons biology.

[dragonkain.3984]

@Taygus.4571 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Stop wondering and thinking about what dragons have between their hind legs you pervs...It shouldn't matter to any of you!

non binary, is identity...its a social construct. Has nothing to do with the dragons biology.

Identity shouldn't matter to any of you either xD

[yann.1946]

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Stop wondering and thinking about what dragons have between their hind legs you pervs...It shouldn't matter to any of you!

non binary, is identity...its a social construct. Has nothing to do with the dragons biology.

Identity shouldn't matter to any of you either xD

We'll with the Sons of Svanir being against women. this is The dragon for which gender might introduce interesting stories

[Mandatory.6590]

@Blude.6812 said:

@Mandatory.6590 said:

@Blude.6812 said:Didn't vote. Poll needs a 4th option. I would have checked Doesn't matter/don't care.

Cared enough to post something though.But I do have the right to look at the post when it caught my attention and when I found the poll lacking in the options offered, commented on it.

I am sorry that offended you and made you care enough to insult.

The don't care option is implicit, no need to vote because you dont care. And what insult are you talking about?

[Arkantos.7460]

is it realy neccessary ...

[Taygus.4571]

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Stop wondering and thinking about what dragons have between their hind legs you pervs...It shouldn't matter to any of you!

non binary, is identity...its a social construct. Has nothing to do with the dragons biology.

Identity shouldn't matter to any of you either xD

? Why not?

I find it interesting, dragons are intelligent beings who interact with humans. It's fitting that they may lean towards a gender or none.

[Teratus.2859]

@Dragon Priestess.9760 said:Well, they can't be sexless since they (seem to) reproduce sexually. I bet they are hermaphroditic.

They don't, at least so far there is nothing suggesting 2 dragons are required to produce offspring.

The only Dragon reproduction we know of is that they ley eggs or reproduce on their own asexually I belive is the right biological term.So they don't have biological sexs which makes this whole gender thing pointless aswell.They have no sex ergo they have no gender either and the idea of a being like an elder dragon honestly caring about it's gender or pronouns seems utterly ridiculous, hence why this whole Jormag's gender thing has rubbed a lot of people the wrong way and some are claiming this is some kind of political statement.

I just hope it doesn't become a plot point in the game itself, as one of the devs said.. there are far more important things going on in the game world and I honestly don't want to waste my time listening to characters talking about how to accurarely represent a Elder Dragons pronouns when all we should be talking about how to kill them.If Jormag honestly cares that much about it's identity than realisitcally it's going to be incredibly easy to kitten it off xD

[Teratus.2859]

@Jski.6180 said:I think when your that powerful and unique calling its self Jormas is more then enofe for a label.

Pretty much where I stand to, I find the idea of these beings caring about their gender to be pretty ridiculous, all I want at the end of the day is another awesome Elder Dragon.

[Teratus.2859]

@Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Anyone every wonder what gender Smoug was? I didn't. If I remember correctly, Tolkien never got into dragon breeding at all. I think that was wise.

No one had a chance to wonder - Smaug is consistently referred to using male pronouns, not just in the dialogue, but in the rest of the text as well.

True that. And the story reads the same if you swap em. No Smaug love life. No Smaug eggs. No Smaug opinions on gender politics. Smaug is just a horrible force to be overcome. Like, don't personify the villain... We, the audience don't like it much. If you make me sympathize with the monster before you kill it at the end, it ends up a very different movie.

Interesting, I think Smaug has more personality than any of the dwarves, elves or humans in The Hobbit, and I sympathise with him more than I do with any of them! And I think personifying villains - and especially making sure they have coherent motives rather than that they're just evil for plot reasons - is a good thing when it's done well. I try not to think too much about the Hobbit movies though...

I agree that you could change Smaug's gender without changing the story. In fact, the same is true of any character in The Hobbit. On the other hand, Jormag's followers care deeply about gender politics and have very strong views on the matter - so Jormag's gender (if the idea of it having one even makes sense, which I'm not convinced that it does) could well be relevant to the story.

It would if Jormag was female considering the sons are a sexist faction of male norn.But Jormag is confirmed neither male or female so that plot line is already dead in the water, a shame really as it would have been really funny to see the Sons find out their God is female lol

[Teratus.2859]

@Taygus.4571 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Stop wondering and thinking about what dragons have between their hind legs you pervs...It shouldn't matter to any of you!

non binary, is identity...its a social construct. Has nothing to do with the dragons biology.

Identity shouldn't matter to any of you either xD

? Why not?

I find it interesting, dragons are intelligent beings who interact with humans. It's fitting that they may lean towards a gender or none.

Elders typically don't though, at least not in the same way Glint and aurine did.Elder Dragons see mortals as lesser, irrelevant beings to be used or just eradicated.. we're effectively ants compared to them and until recently they've never even considered us a threat.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Taygus.4571 said:

@"dragonkain.3984" said:Stop wondering and thinking about what dragons have between their hind legs you pervs...It shouldn't matter to any of you!

non binary, is identity...its a social construct. Has nothing to do with the dragons biology.

Not strictly speaking. How it's used most frequently nowadays is so, but if we're taking it at face value it merely means "not composed of two". Which means it can be used to any topic which has fewer than or more than two in its system.

If you were to look up "non-binary definition" on Google, the result would be effectively the same as "binary definition" but with negatives tossed in. To quote google:

non·bi·na·ry/ˌnänˈbīnərē/adjective: non-binary

1. not relating to, composed of, or involving just two things."Aristotelian ontology is nonbinary on the second level in that it allows for degrees of being"
   • denoting or relating to a gender or sexual identity that is not defined in terms of traditional binary oppositions such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual."nonbinary people are vastly underrepresented in the media"
2. relating to, using, or denoting a system of numerical notation that does not have 2 as a base."the enumeration data is stored in a nonbinary format"

While it certainly is used in the topic of gender identity, it does not solely exist in such form. Those who believe it does, and simply incorrect. That doesn't seem to stop them from making an issue out of it because it's a common political topic these past few years, though.

[Blude.6812]

@Mandatory.6590 said:

@Blude.6812 said:

@Mandatory.6590 said:

@Blude.6812 said:Didn't vote. Poll needs a 4th option. I would have checked Doesn't matter/don't care.

Cared enough to post something though.But I do have the right to look at the post when it caught my attention and when I found the poll lacking in the options offered, commented on it.

I am sorry that offended you and made you care enough to insult.

The don't care option is implicit, no need to vote because you dont care. And what insult are you talking about?

That's not how polling data works. A poll that doesn't have the all the options is obviously trying to skew the results to represent the pollsters and polls bias. Pointing out the obvious shortcoming of the poll that isn't inclusive will make all the results invalid. Stating that something is implicit by not having all options is something someone who has no idea about how unbiased polls work. As for the insult, " Cared enough to post something though" Its really talking down to someone that voices a differing view than yours. Your response not only insulting (to me) but a post that is not on topic, but only serves to directly call me out. Your premise that by not participating implies is obviously showing that ------------------. (sent me a pm and I will fill in the blanks).

[coso.9173]

just fyi non binary is not any more political than genderless, or straight, or female, or any other word. all of those words are either policital or none of them are.

[coso.9173]

non binary is not hypothetical, it means someone doesn't identify with a male or female gender, that's all. it doesn't mean they're not male or female biologically.

[Tazer.2157]

For me Jormag is part Apache helicopter and part snowflake cause why not. If anet can be silly so can I. Nowadays the gender of a damn fictional character is more important than the game development. SMH.

[Rauderi.8706]

@dragonkain.3984 said:Stop wondering and thinking about what dragons have between their hind legs you pervs...It shouldn't matter to any of you!

But maybe that's GEORmag's weakness!Zhaitan had starvation, Mordremoth had its mind, Kralkatorrik had its resonance.So given the Sons of Svanir and their obsession with manly might, GEORmag's weakness might be naughty bits? o-o