For the Love of God, Delete Mesmer Mantras!

[MithranArkanere.8957]

There was a mechanic that was used extensively in GW1, but you only see in branded devourer hatchlings and jacarandas in GW2: Easily interruptible.

When a skill is easily interruptible, any attack that hits will always interrupt the skill activation.

Mantras, all mantras, should be easily interruptible.

This way there will be a choice between using all casts or letting the mantra regain charges: If wait for charges, you have guaranteed casts, if you spend all charges and recast, you risk interruption.

[Daishi.6027]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:one-shot from stealth because the mesmer stealthed halfway across the map and insta-killed me with ZERO tells or any chance to react.

Biggest bunch of BS and alone is proof of how lacking you are.

Outside of portal mesmer blinks once ever 30 seconds for 1200 range, and if mirage that's plus a couple jaunts and a couple leaps at the cost of endurance, and then MAYBE you get half way across the map, and that's more than enough for you to see them coming.

You say "No tell", but that "no tell" is your own lack of awareness for the map or your opponent. No one's fault other than your own if you can't anticipate a combo in at most a relatively short 5-6 second window while knowing that they need to end a 3/4 cast at a specific distance if they want to one shot.

lol when I said, "halfway across the map" ... I meant

"halfway across the map."

If you're on a side node and are "aware" of the mesmer that stealthed at mid (literally halfway across the map!) you're either a liar or a hacker.

I didn't have to use blink, sword 3, jaunt, mirage thrust,

swiftness

, nor portal. So "MAYBE you get halfway across the map" is "proof of how lacking

you

are."

Lol. Okay so super speed instead of swiftness, and even with the last bit of swiftness you barely made it onto the point before your stealth faded.

But good job cherry picking my point to show you can technically do something without regards for the context for the rest of the argument.

@Daishi.6027 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:one-shot from stealth because the mesmer stealthed halfway across the map and insta-killed me with ZERO tells or any chance to react.

You say "No tell", but that "no tell" is

your own lack of awareness

for the

map

or your opponent.

God forbid someone with any level of map awareness simply moves to the back of the cap point and just predicts the arrival, presuming they use blink if you aren't in range. It's really not that hard to anticipate or figure out when you're being approached.It's almost like it's impossible for people to infer where people are going to rotate lol.

Also where is the one shot coming? If you're not in combat you're not getting the quickness from sigil, that's still a good 3/4 cast before the bulk of the main hit, and now you have no on demand stealth if you wiff. If they poke you with sword, or try to land the last hit with prestige (which again with any level of awareness of timings or your opponents) they shouldn't do. But if it's the former, there is more than enough time to anticipate the combo.

This is a super easy to play around window of stealth, and has more than enough leeway to punish whiffs.

and I still stand by the above. If what you showed in the vid was all you got I'm sorry but that isn't enough to prove a lack of counter play at least in need of "deletion" and the fact you don't even consider map awareness, included it in your argument, or tried to in some way invalidate it; while only arguing the technical with a limitation I did address; does show how lacking you are. So, sure; you can barely make it half way across the map and maintain the stealth. So long as you slotting chaos on a power build which I addressed:

Also one shot builds don't run chaos. You NEED MA in dom and and SC in dueling to one shot anyone who isn't an ele or thief who is typing.

Unless we're complaining about core PU mesmer in 2019 (which has more than enough built in counterplay) you are lacking dom or dueling, and if that's the case, that is simply a testament to just how overly nerfed mirage and chrono are.

If we're talking +1ing fights who cares, the fight became a 2v1 anyways.And thief still would have more mobility and stealth after +1 ganking.

So... Good job, I guess /shrug.

None of this is imba in conquest, if you want balance to not revolve around conquest then you should be arguing something else.

[apharma.3741]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:

1. It was a demonstration that anyone can get high ranks on the leaderboard regardless of actual skill (edit)[or build] and so leaderboard position and even being on it is not a good indicator of a builds actual strength or quality. Hence last season's rank 1 also.

2. Your "evidence" is subjective, that's the problem with it. You're not showing scores of people playing a clearly too strong build and instead showing a handful of people playing a strong build from a perspective that wants to see this build nerfed.

3. For the
   third
   fourth
   fifth time: "If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes."

You need numbers of players playing the build in ranked to the level of current Holo and condi Mirage so it shows on ANet's statistics. I don't know how I can spell it out any more.

1. "WP had rank 1 on condi mirage. Correct.
   However, if you want to talk about cherry picking information,
   WP got rank 1 during the first week of the ranked season quing before NA primetime. So, not only were less players online, but there weren't many high tier players that had finished their placements."
2. I don't think you understand what the term "subjective" means. The videos and screenshots I've linked are FACTUAL. There aren't any opinions involved in the visual
   proof
   of the build's capabilities. I'm not even that good on it, yet I'm still farming.
3. This thread is my attempt to spread the word, as are the ques I've been doing these past few days on mantra mesmer. I'm not disagreeing with you on this, so you can stop repeating yourself over and over again.

I said more than just WP being rank 1 here is the full quote:

"What isn't viable in high level nowadays? You're likely to see people who play all sorts on the leaderboard, heck WP had rank 1 not that long ago on condi mirage in your region. Someone had been camping top spot for several seasons on necro in EU. It's a very weak argument in the state of the game to say that ranking alone dictates the strength of a build, you also need a lot of people to be playing it as good players can pretty much play anything, especially in NA and get a high placement. That's without mentioning the meme of last season's rank 1."

This is me saying that I do not agree with your premise that rank and leaderboard position denotes the strength or skill of the build.

This is what you said: "I also only have a few hours worth of practice on the berserker mantra build and I'm farming ranked harder than I do on my main. If that doesn't say anything in regards to how low-risk, high-reward the build is, I don't know what will."

Where is your baseline win rate?Where is the consistency of you playing ONLY mantra mesmer?Are you maintaining all other variables as similar as possible?What you are throwing out are "facts" in that they happened however they are subjective in that they are based on your own viewpoint over an inconsistent and varying data set, not showing a clear picture. An argument could be made it's merely not objective but that's it. https://keydifferences.com/difference-between-objective-and-subjective.html

OK so why are you constantly pinging me in this thread if we've already established your way to nerfing? Don't answer that, it's rhetorical as is what I'm putting in this reply, you pinged me into this blooming conversation after replying to me on discord because you were banned and I've given you all the responses you need. There's nothing more I can say that hasn't more or less been said in this thread.

[shadowpass.4236]

@"Daishi.6027"

"I didn't have to use blink, sword 3, jaunt, mirage thrust, swiftness, nor portal. So 'MAYBE you get halfway across the map' is 'proof of how lacking you are.'"

Sorry, your logic is vacuous.

1. I ran halfway across the map in stealth. There's nothing you can say that changes that fact.
2. No one, save for a hacker (or a liar!), could predict the mesmer standing right next to them on a side node if they stealthed at the mid point.
3. I think you're very confused. Do you not understand that the 3/4 second cast time on GS2 doesn't matter if the enemy cannot see the cast to begin with? Stealth says, "Hi Daishi! Nice to meet you!"
4. If the mantra mesmer whiffs the burst, they can very simply just blink away and Power Lock any attempt to chase.
5. Would you like to see some awareness in action?
   • Helio, one of the most mechanically-talented players in GW2, gets one-shot by a mantra mesmer that he had targetted.
   • Zeromis, one of the most mechanically-talented players in GW2, gets one-shot by a mantra mesmer that stealthed halfway between mid and the side node.
   • Vallun, another good player, gets one-shot by a mantra mesmer that stealthed out of his line of sight.
6. etc. etc.

A properly played mantra mesmer is impossible to predict. 13 seconds of stealth coupled with an instant cast, no-tell, 100-0 burst isn't balanced.

So... Good job, I guess /shrug.

[Shao.7236]

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful but this is what I mean when I say you don't have much experience fighting against good mantra mesmers. It's not very hard for one of them to shut you down, escape, and come back to one-shot you in the near future.

If that's not directed at me, it's not without the help of an actual team that you can pull off anything consistently on one single target unless they are dumbfounded.

While a team competent enough will keep track of you and often be prepared. It's a 2 way street.

Most Revs are making the biggest mistake of using Phase Traversal right as soon as they swap legends which is something that should never be done. I know about mesmer just dead stopping Revs that jump to 'em because I've done it in the past, it's easy to avoid by having swaps ready beforehand.

If that's directed at me, you do well know that the moment I was aware of you, you never were able to efficiently do anything that spells "one-shot" other than being a side kick to the team at the distance. I just can't call something "one-shot" if it's not entirely by the surprise everyone calls for out of stealth from 100 to 0, downed. Ambushing someone already fighting is also not something that should count, considering that's something anyone can do anyway.

At this point, it's fair to say it's not good mesmers. Just the ability to back up when you're unable to do anything to work the cooldowns and those cooldowns are what's great about said mantras/blink which we've already agree'd that should be toned down a bit.

Nearly reaching 10k games, I'm fairly certain that with all the core encounters and FFA fights I had, there was at least 1 good mantra mesmer in 4 years. Like said, I have encounter and fought some that lasted for minutes, but to strip them of their utility entirely in one go is not a good idea and I would start with the biggest offender.

Edit: Look I get it that because it's possible to 100-0 it shouldn't exist, but some builds can just work around that. That's just what happens when people play glassy, the maneuver has it's place in the game IMO and I don't want to see it go. It's how wary players should be, just kick the disengage potential away from the mix.

[shadowpass.4236]

@"apharma.3741"

You people cannot go and say, "There's no one in the top 10 with the build" and "Leaderboards don't matter" at the same time.

"This is me saying that I do not agree with your premise that rank and leaderboard position denotes the strength or skill of the build."

You wanted to see a larger sample size than a handful of games I played on the build, so I countered with the fact that there's been multiple mantra mesmers in the top 10 since the leaderboards have been released. Then you said the leaderboards aren't indicative of skill, so I countered with proof of two days worth of ranked ques on the mantra mesmer build.

I have a higher winrate and kill-death ratio on this spec than I do on my main that I have 5,600 hours on. This shouldn't be the case. I have a handful of hours on a glass cannon build, yet I'm consistently rolling over players every match and dying a very, very small number of times. I've also oneshot/killed several good players, including some that have defended the spec in this thread.

You accuse me of cherry picking my arguments when I lay all of my cards out on the table. Yet you and several others insist on moving the goalposts constantly. So, you're telling me that video and picture proof, from several different sources, are entirely subjective? lol... please. Tell me what proof you'd like to see that this spec is busted.

Would you like hundreds... no, thousands of players all running mantra mesmers? Because from what you're telling me, the amount of players using the build in question is indicative of skill. In that case, I disagree.

[Daishi.6027]

@shadowpass.4236 said:@"Daishi.6027"

"I didn't have to use blink, sword 3, jaunt, mirage thrust, swiftness, nor portal. So 'MAYBE you get halfway across the map' is 'proof of how lacking you are.'"

Sorry, your logic is vacuous.

1. I ran halfway across the map in stealth. There's nothing you can say that changes that fact.
2. No one, save for a hacker (or a liar!), could predict the mesmer standing right next to them on a side node if they stealthed at the mid point.
3. I think you're very confused. Do you not understand that the 3/4 second cast time on GS2 doesn't matter if the enemy cannot see the cast to begin with? Stealth says, "Hi Daishi! Nice to meet you!"
4. If the mantra mesmer whiffs the burst, they can very simply just blink away and Power Lock any attempt to chase.
5. Would you like to see some awareness in action?
   • Helio, one of the most mechanically-talented players in GW2, gets one-shot by a mantra mesmer that he had targetted.
   • Zeromis, one of the most mechanically-talented players in GW2, gets one-shot by a mantra mesmer that stealthed halfway between mid and the side node.
   • Vallun, another good player, gets one-shot by a mantra mesmer that stealthed out of his line of sight.
6. etc. etc.

A properly played mantra mesmer is impossible to predict. 13 seconds of stealth coupled with an instant cast, no-tell, 100-0 burst isn't balanced.

So... Good job, I guess /shrug.

1. and I said ya fine.
2. So no one can predict anything ever? I guess every stealth shatter, backstab, maul, snipe attempt against me that failed was just me hacking. lol
3. You can see them if they only barely make it to the point before being revealed, and you have any understanding of the timing it takes for them to get to you.
4. This is true, but that also means blink can't be used offensively meaning good positioning will force them to waste it or force them to use it to escape. Either way fine.
5. Just because someone can be blind sided doesn't change anything. Sometimes even the best of the best screw up. There is a give and take to people playing around each-other my bet is that any rando using it vs them wont land. Even if they do, I doubt they could consistently.

Nothing is impossible to predict. Doubly so when you can hear prestige cast. Tripply so when there is a hard limit (like the 13 seconds).Also a burst combo who has to land in melee range with a ranged weapon that offers no mobility, can be forced to expire their stealth simply by repositoning. Then they have to wait at least 25 seconds as per your vid before they can stealth again.

[Tayga.3192]

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

• Zeromis, one of the most mechanically-talented players in GW2, gets one-shot by a mantra mesmer that stealthed halfway between mid and the side node.

Shorts is freecasting on plantsNA op

1 min later, Zeromis evaded his burst when he sees/hears stealth.

Last edit: Vid is so old, chrono was playable xD

[shadowpass.4236]

@Shao.7236 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful but this is what I mean when I say you don't have much experience fighting against good mantra mesmers. It's not very hard for one of them to shut you down, escape, and come back to one-shot you in the near future.

If that's not directed at me, it's not without the help of an actual team that you can pull off anything consistently on one single target unless they are dumbfounded.

While a team competent enough will keep track of you and often be prepared. It's a 2 way street.

Most Revs are making the biggest mistake of using Phase Traversal right as soon as they swap legends which is something that should never be done. I know about mesmer just dead stopping Revs that jump to 'em because I've done it in the past, it's easy to avoid by having swaps ready beforehand.

If that's directed at me, you do well know that the moment I was aware of you, you never were able to efficiently do anything that spells "one-shot" other than being a side kick to the team at the distance. I just can't call something "one-shot" if it's not entirely by the surprise everyone calls for out of stealth from 100 to 0, downed. Ambushing someone already fighting is also not something that should count, considering that's something anyone can do anyway.

At this point, it's fair to say it's not good mesmers. Just the ability to back up when you're unable to do anything to work the cooldowns and those cooldowns are what's great about said mantras/blink which we've already agree'd that should be toned down a bit.

Nearly reaching 10k games, I'm fairly certain that with all the core encounters and FFA fights I had, there was at least 1 good mantra mesmer in 4 years. Like said, I have encounter and fought some that lasted for minutes, but to strip them of their utility entirely in one go is not a good idea and I would start with the biggest offender.

Edit: Look I get it that because it's possible to 100-0 it shouldn't exist, but some builds can just work around that. That's just what happens when people play glassy, the maneuver has it's place in the game IMO and I don't want to see it go. It's how wary players should be, just kick the disengage potential away from the mix.

You should watch a lot of the bigger 1v1 tournaments. There's always a mantra mesmer in the semifinals/finals. Let me emphasize this for you - one. versus. one.

Mantra mesmer does not need a team to set up the kills. Why? Because it has a very high stealth uptime (among several other ways) that help it land the oneshot.

If you use Phase Traversal from behind a wall and I can just Diversion you as soon as you teleport to me. If you attempt to blind me, I can Blurred Images to strip it and immob the initial spike and Power Lock your Unrelenting Assault afterwards. If this doesn't work, I can Distortion and then Power Lock again afterwards. If you use Precision Strike, I can Mirror it back to you and create distance because you're chilled and I have super speed. etc. etc.

I was rotating around the map after snowballing the rest of your team at mid and home. Your teammates got oneshot, then I rotated to kill you. I do not need to set up a stealth oneshot (a.k.a. blow unnecessary cooldowns) if you're going to die anyways in a 1v2 you can't escape from.

Like I told someone else in this thread, compare this

you made to my clip on how a mantra mesmer should burst. Your video shows your incorrect assumption that this is what a properly executed mantra burst looks like. In your own words, "these are like, super obvious ambushes from plat 1." Yes. That is because you fought against a mesmer that has no idea what they were doing. Instead, look at good examples of myself, Mur, and Shorts landing oneshots the way we're supposed to.

[shadowpass.4236]

@"Daishi.6027" said:

1. and I said ya fine.
2. So no one can predict anything ever? I guess every stealth shatter, backstab, maul, snipe attempt against me that failed was just me hacking. lol
3. You can see them if they only barely make it to the point before being revealed, and you have any understanding of the timing it takes for them to get to you.
4. This is true, but that also means blink can't be used offensively meaning good positioning will force them to waste it or force them to use it to escape. Either way fine.
5. Just because someone can be blind sided doesn't change anything. Sometimes even the best of the best screw up. There is a give and take to people playing around each-other my bet is that any rando using it vs them wont land. Even if they do, I doubt they could consistently.

Nothing is impossible to predict. Doubly so when you can hear prestige cast. Tripply so when there is a hard limit (like the 13 seconds).Also a burst combo who has to land in melee range with a ranged weapon that offers no mobility, can be forced to expire their stealth simply by repositoning. Then they have to wait at least 25 seconds as per your vid before they can stealth again.

2. Let me reiterate this for you, again. If whoever you're fighting stealths HALFWAY across the map, out of your range of vision/hearing, you will not know they are there unless you are hacking, or are a liar. I will also restate this, again. If whoever you're fighting stealths right in front of you, it's not hard to predict.
3. Chances are, they will burst you the instant they get into melee range. You will not know they're there until after you eat the initial burst.
4. Blink does not need to be used defensively when they can simply walk up to you with up to 13 seconds of stealth. Fine? After you eat the spike, you're going to be left at 20% HP and lacking defensive cooldowns. If they catch you again, you're going to die.
5. Sorry, your logic is vacuous. Yes, even the best of the best can be blindsided. However, mantra mesmer can consistently 100-0 the top players. In other words, this build can completely nullify all of the practice and experience someone has had, simply because it does too much damage, too quickly, without any tell, from a very long duration invisibility.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

• Zeromis
  , one of the most mechanically-talented players in GW2, gets one-shot by a mantra mesmer that stealthed halfway between mid and the side node.

Shorts is freecasting on plantsNA op

1 min later, Zeromis evaded his burst when he sees/hears stealth.

Last edit: Vid is so old, chrono was playable xD

The video is from 3 months ago and 1 minute later, after Zeromis evaded the initial burst, he still died.

Funnily enough, Zeromis would've died even quicker if he wasn't playing Mirage with the ability to dodge even after getting hit by the stun from Diversion.

[Daishi.6027]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:

1. and I said ya fine.
2. So no one can predict anything ever? I guess every stealth shatter, backstab, maul, snipe attempt against me that failed was just me hacking. lol
3. You can see them if they only barely make it to the point before being revealed, and you have any understanding of the timing it takes for them to get to you.
4. This is true, but that also means blink can't be used offensively meaning good positioning will force them to waste it or force them to use it to escape. Either way fine.
5. Just because someone can be blind sided doesn't change anything. Sometimes even the best of the best screw up. There is a give and take to people playing around each-other my bet is that any rando using it vs them wont land. Even if they do, I doubt they could consistently.

Nothing is impossible to predict. Doubly so when you can hear prestige cast. Tripply so when there is a hard limit (like the 13 seconds).Also a burst combo who has to land in melee range with a ranged weapon that offers no mobility, can be forced to expire their stealth simply by repositoning. Then they have to wait at least 25 seconds as per your vid before they can stealth again.

2. Let me reiterate this for you, again. If whoever you're fighting stealths HALFWAY across the map, out of your range of vision/hearing, you will not know they are there unless you are hacking, or are a liar. I will also restate this, again. If whoever you're fighting stealths right in front of you, it's not hard to predict.
3. Chances are, they will burst you the instant they get into melee range. You will not know they're there until
   after
   you eat the initial burst.
4. Blink does not need to be used defensively when they can simply walk up to you with up to 13 seconds of stealth. Fine? After you eat the spike, you're going to be left at 20% HP and lacking defensive cooldowns. If they catch you again, you're going to die.
5. Sorry, your logic is vacuous. Yes, even the best of the best can be blindsided. However, mantra mesmer can
   consistently
   100-0 the top players. In other words, this build can completely nullify all of the practice and experience someone has had, simply because it does too much damage, too quickly, without any tell, from a very long duration invisibility.

2. Is why map awareness is important in contrast to what is on the enemy team.
3. If they did everything you did in your vid, and someone stood towards the back of the point you'd see them.
4. What are you arguing? The point is if you evade the burst the first time the damage is 0 and they are on cooldown.
5. My logic is vacuous? LOL okay, of the videos you linked:Keyba wasn't even on a conquest map, and ran in 3v1 but I could see the mirage starting up the burst. So they probably could to.The video with Zeromis is disingenuous at best! And at worst proves you are just trying to push your agenda regardless of facts. At multiple times in that video they evade each other, or are actively trying to predict the burst; Even within the first 2 min! And reasonably to be expected sometimes they are successful, sometimes they are not; which is the opposite of "impossible to predict". Also it's not like shorts is just a rando who killed zeromis. Doubly also, by the by; I have personally, and consistently enough evaded short's attempts to burst me.

@Tayga.3192 said:Last edit: Vid is so old, chrono was playable xDStill @shadowpass.4236I don't know if this is true, but even if it wasn't there isn't enough context to go off of. From that clip alone there was no way to infer if they could or couldn't have reasonably known if the mesmer was there, had cooldowns, or if there was any communication between the allies. We already agreed that some can get blind sided anyways. I see the mes on the mini map, if the player was aware of the presence then they should have been more ready than putting themselves into an open field within blink range.In this mes could have simply had better Seme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seme_(martial_arts)

Either way not enough to go off of.

[shadowpass.4236]

@"Daishi.6027"

2. Map awareness will not help you when the enemy stealths from literally halfway across the map. How are you going to be aware of someone that is completely invisible? Have you ever heard of stealth decaps? Are you just magically aware of the thief passing you?
3. So why couldn't Vallun react to this? He clearly saw me stealth. Oh! Maybe because the burst is instant? The 3/4 second cast time on greatsword doesn't matter when the mesmer is invisible and they can't see it anyways!
4. Incorrect. If you evade the initial burst, they will cast Phantasmal Berserker next and have access to their second charges for Mantra of Pain and Mantra of Distraction. They can also interrupt you with Illusionary Wave and continue to burst you by swapping into s/t for Illusionary Leap -> Swap into Blurred Frenzy + Cry of Frustration. As I told Shao, this build isn't as gimmicky as so many of you would like to believe. It's more than capable of killing someone/surviving outside of the oneshot combo. Even the sword auto attack chain can take away a significant portion of your health.
5. Currently, Mur is rank 2 on mantra mesmer and he's been in the top 10 consistently since the leaderboards came out (among others like CJ). So, he's proven that mantra mesmer is very effective in Conquest as well as non-Conquest maps. I will repeat myself, again. If the mesmer stealths from HALFWAY across the map, out of the range of your vision/hearing, it is impossible to predict. And, again, for the umpteenth time, if whoever you're fighting stealths right in front of you, it's not hard to predict.
6. Again, I will state this, again and again and again... Shorts is not the best example of a mantra mesmer. Every single highly rated player I've mentioned or referenced in those videos/clips consistently place higher than Shorts. Fight against CJ or Mur if you want to see frequent, properly executed mantra bursts.
7. You see the mesmer on the mini map? You mean Shorts? He's out of combat. He wouldn't have shown up on Zeromis' mini map. Imagine not being able to step into an open field "within blink range" because at any given moment there's a spec that can instantly put you into downstate without any reasonable indication.

[Shao.7236]

@"shadowpass.4236" said:You've missed the point of the first line, someone that falls for the same trick over and over, deserves to die, but to be remotely efficient to those who can avoid your one shot you need distractions because any sort of focus that can follow will easily kill that mesmer.

+1 assistance is not OP no matter what and who is played. Ambushes given from Stealth or not are often not forewarned and so very likely to be successful.

You didn't have to elaborate your situation when I clearly stated that a Revenant that phase traversal without legend swap available is a bad Revenant and deserves to get downed, hence why they were quite easy to kill as you make it seem, not surprised myself.

There's no need for a hundred explanations that a "proper" mantra mesmer isn't just the mesmer that stealths out of sight. It's a mesmer that can fight with just as much exposure, which is something you used to argue about but now it's just "one-shot" everywhere which really makes this whole conversation useless.

I hate Mesmers, I hate how they get to do everything the way they want so seamlessly, yet I am playing devils advocate because I have learned to face the worst from Mesmers and I wish for people to do the same. If it's overtune, add cooldowns, the damage is still fine ever since the removal on stun.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Shao.7236 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:You've missed the point of the first line, someone that falls for the same trick over and over, deserves to die, but to be remotely efficient to those who can avoid your one shot you need distractions because any sort of focus that can follow will easily kill that mesmer.

+1 assistance is not OP no matter what and who is played. Ambushes given from Stealth or not are often not forewarned and so very likely to be successful.

You didn't have to elaborate your situation when I clearly stated that a Revenant that phase traversal without legend swap available is a bad Revenant and deserves to get downed, hence why they were quite easy to kill as you make it seem, not surprised myself.

There's no need for a hundred explanations that a "proper" mantra mesmer isn't just the mesmer that stealths out of sight. It's a mesmer that can fight with just as much exposure, which is something you used to argue about but now it's just "one-shot" everywhere which really makes this whole conversation useless.

I hate Mesmers, I hate how they get to do everything the way they want so seamlessly, yet I am playing devils advocate because I have learned to face the worst from Mesmers and I wish for people to do the same. If it's overtune, add cooldowns, the damage is still fine ever since the removal on stun.

Can you, and several others in this thread, please elaborate on how you can tell that the mesmer is next to you after he stealths on a completely separate node?

Diversion stuns you every time, every 23 seconds while traited with Confounding Suggestions + MoD channel.

If the mantra burst were as easy to avoid as you make it seem, then it should realistically, RARELY ever connect. For example, Earthshaker is easy to avoid. How often does it hit you? Rarely. Now, if you can't reliably avoid the mantra burst as often as you can avoid an Earthshaker, an Arcing Slice, a Point Blank Shot, etc. etc. then that means it's not easy to avoid.

[Daishi.6027]

@shadowpass.4236 said:@"Daishi.6027"

2. Map awareness will not help you when the enemy stealths from literally halfway across the map. How are you going to be aware of someone that is completely invisible? Have you ever heard of stealth decaps? Are you just magically aware of the thief passing you?
3. So why couldn't Vallun react to this? He clearly saw me stealth. Oh! Maybe because the burst is instant? The 3/4 second cast time on greatsword doesn't matter when the mesmer is invisible and they can't see it anyways!
4. Incorrect. If you evade the initial burst, they will cast Phantasmal Berserker next and have access to their second charges for Mantra of Pain and Mantra of Distraction. They can also interrupt you with Illusionary Wave and continue to burst you by swapping into s/t for Illusionary Leap -> Swap into Blurred Frenzy + Cry of Frustration. As I told Shao, this build isn't as gimmicky as so many of you would like to believe. It's more than capable of killing someone/surviving outside of the oneshot combo. Even the sword auto attack chain can take away a significant portion of your health.
5. Currently, Mur is rank 2 on mantra mesmer and he's been in the top 10 consistently since the leaderboards came out (among others like CJ). So, he's proven that mantra mesmer is very effective in Conquest as well as non-Conquest maps. I will repeat myself, again. If the mesmer stealths from HALFWAY across the map, out of the range of your vision/hearing, it is impossible to predict. And, again, for the umpteenth time, if whoever you're fighting stealths right in front of you, it's not hard to predict.
6. Again, I will state this, again and again and again... Shorts is not the best example of a mantra mesmer. Every single highly rated player I've mentioned or referenced in those videos/clips consistently place higher than Shorts. Fight against CJ or Mur if you want to see properly executed mantra bursts.
7. You see the mesmer on the mini map? You mean Shorts? He's out of combat. He wouldn't have shown up on Zeromis' mini map. Imagine not being able to step into an open field "within blink range" because at any given moment there's a spec that can instantly put you into downstate without any reasonable indication.

2. Off point is a different story anyways, and thief gets way more stealth and can take different routes. Mes as per your vid has a specific amount of time to reach the point since the start of stealth, and cannot renew it.

3. He could have, I would have. Pretty sure many would have. He had a dodge available, I could literally feel the landing of that hit and it wasn't instant; there was like 1/2 - 3/4 of a second following the prestige. Also:

@shadowpass.4236 said And, again, for the umpteenth time, if whoever you're fighting stealths right in front of you, it's not hard to predict.

You admit this your self?

4. Zerk is kite-able and cleave-able, most builds have at least 3 dodges and a few other defensive cooldowns and you can avoid illusionary leap in so many ways and we're arguing about cry of frustration and sword auto on a power build now? lol.

5. It IS predictable. No matter how many times you repeat it it doesn't make it true in the face of map awareness. Also how do they prestige out of range of hearing and not create a gap where they can see or hear or blow any additional lengthy cooldowns? Also I'm sure Mur would make it regardless of the build played.

6. My point about shorts was about him killing Zeromis, also I have killed Mur before except they were condi at the time, and it was in FFA area, so take from that what you will. I'm aware that doesn't mean much.

7. I'm referring to the last vid you linked with Vallun

[shadowpass.4236]

@Daishi.6027 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@Daishi.6027

2. Map awareness will not help you when the enemy stealths from literally halfway across the map. How are you going to be aware of someone that is completely invisible? Have you ever heard of stealth decaps? Are you just magically aware of the thief passing you?
3. So why couldn't Vallun react to
   this
   ? He clearly saw me stealth. Oh! Maybe because the burst is instant? The 3/4 second cast time on greatsword
   doesn't
   matter when the mesmer is invisible and they can't see it anyways!
4. Incorrect. If you evade the initial burst, they will cast Phantasmal Berserker next and have access to their second charges for Mantra of Pain and Mantra of Distraction. They can also interrupt you with Illusionary Wave and continue to burst you by swapping into s/t for Illusionary Leap -> Swap into Blurred Frenzy + Cry of Frustration. As I told Shao, this build isn't as gimmicky as so many of you would like to believe. It's more than capable of killing someone/surviving outside of the oneshot combo. Even the sword auto attack chain can take away a significant portion of your health.
5. Currently, Mur is
   rank 2
   on mantra mesmer and he's been in the top 10 consistently since the leaderboards came out (among others like CJ). So, he's proven that mantra mesmer is very effective in Conquest as well as non-Conquest maps. I will repeat myself, again. If the mesmer stealths from HALFWAY across the map, out of the range of your vision/hearing, it is impossible to predict. And, again, for the umpteenth time, if whoever you're fighting stealths right in front of you, it's
   not
   hard to predict.
6. Again, I will state this, again and again and again... Shorts is not the best example of a mantra mesmer. Every single highly rated player I've mentioned or referenced in those videos/clips consistently place higher than Shorts. Fight against CJ or Mur if you want to see properly executed mantra bursts.
7. You see the mesmer on the mini map? You mean Shorts? He's out of combat. He wouldn't have shown up on Zeromis' mini map. Imagine not being able to step into an open field "within blink range" because at any given moment there's a spec that can instantly put you into downstate without any reasonable indication.

2. Off point is a different story anyways, and thief gets way more stealth and can take different routes. Mes as per your vid has a specific amount of time to reach the point since the start of stealth, and cannot renew it.

3. He could have, I would have. Pretty sure many would have. He had a dodge available, I could literally feel the landing of that hit and it wasn't instant; there was like 1/2 - 3/4 of a second following the prestige. Also:

@shadowpass.4236 said And, again, for the umpteenth time, if whoever you're fighting stealths right in front of you, it's

not

hard to predict.

You admit this your self?

4. Zerk is kite-able and cleave-able, most builds have at least 3 dodges and a few other defensive cooldowns and you can avoid illusionary leap in so many ways and we're arguing about cry of frustration and sword auto on a power build now? lol.

5. It IS predictable. No matter how many times you repeat it it doesn't make it true in the face of map awareness. Also how do they prestige out of range of hearing and not create a gap where they can see or hear or blow any additional lengthy cooldowns? Also I'm sure Mur would make it regardless of the build played.

6. My point about shorts was about him killing Zeromis, also I have killed Mur before except they were condi at the time, and it was in FFA area, so take from that what you will. I'm aware that doesn't mean much.

7. I'm referring to the last vid you linked with Vallun

2. PU mes has more stealth than meta thief.
3. If you watch some of the other videos I linked, I deliberately did not burst Vallun several times after entering stealth. This forced him to blow 3-4 defensive cooldowns because he knew he could've been 100-0'd at any given moment.
4. The mesmer can delay Illusionary Leap in order to land the immobilize after a defensive cooldown. He can also wait for the dodge before mantra bursting after the evade frame.
5. Mur does this thing where he torch 4 stealths behind LoS before getting to mid, blinks, jaunts, and mirage thrusts into a mantra burst on a target getting to mid. He covers about half the map in under 3 seconds and catches his enemies off guard.

[Daishi.6027]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@Daishi.6027

2. Map awareness will not help you when the enemy stealths from literally halfway across the map. How are you going to be aware of someone that is completely invisible? Have you ever heard of stealth decaps? Are you just magically aware of the thief passing you?
3. So why couldn't Vallun react to
   this
   ? He clearly saw me stealth. Oh! Maybe because the burst is instant? The 3/4 second cast time on greatsword
   doesn't
   matter when the mesmer is invisible and they can't see it anyways!
4. Incorrect. If you evade the initial burst, they will cast Phantasmal Berserker next and have access to their second charges for Mantra of Pain and Mantra of Distraction. They can also interrupt you with Illusionary Wave and continue to burst you by swapping into s/t for Illusionary Leap -> Swap into Blurred Frenzy + Cry of Frustration. As I told Shao, this build isn't as gimmicky as so many of you would like to believe. It's more than capable of killing someone/surviving outside of the oneshot combo. Even the sword auto attack chain can take away a significant portion of your health.
5. Currently, Mur is
   rank 2
   on mantra mesmer and he's been in the top 10 consistently since the leaderboards came out (among others like CJ). So, he's proven that mantra mesmer is very effective in Conquest as well as non-Conquest maps. I will repeat myself, again. If the mesmer stealths from HALFWAY across the map, out of the range of your vision/hearing, it is impossible to predict. And, again, for the umpteenth time, if whoever you're fighting stealths right in front of you, it's
   not
   hard to predict.
6. Again, I will state this, again and again and again... Shorts is not the best example of a mantra mesmer. Every single highly rated player I've mentioned or referenced in those videos/clips consistently place higher than Shorts. Fight against CJ or Mur if you want to see properly executed mantra bursts.
7. You see the mesmer on the mini map? You mean Shorts? He's out of combat. He wouldn't have shown up on Zeromis' mini map. Imagine not being able to step into an open field "within blink range" because at any given moment there's a spec that can instantly put you into downstate without any reasonable indication.

2. Off point is a different story anyways, and thief gets way more stealth and can take different routes. Mes as per your vid has a specific amount of time to reach the point since the start of stealth, and cannot renew it.

3. He could have, I would have. Pretty sure many would have. He had a dodge available, I could literally feel the landing of that hit and it wasn't instant; there was like 1/2 - 3/4 of a second following the prestige. Also:

@shadowpass.4236 said And, again, for the umpteenth time, if whoever you're fighting stealths right in front of you, it's

not

hard to predict.

You admit this your self?

4. Zerk is kite-able and cleave-able, most builds have at least 3 dodges and a few other defensive cooldowns and you can avoid illusionary leap in so many ways and we're arguing about cry of frustration and sword auto on a power build now? lol.

5. It IS predictable. No matter how many times you repeat it it doesn't make it true in the face of map awareness. Also how do they prestige out of range of hearing and not create a gap where they can see or hear or blow any additional lengthy cooldowns? Also I'm sure Mur would make it regardless of the build played.

6. My point about shorts was about him killing Zeromis, also I have killed Mur before except they were condi at the time, and it was in FFA area, so take from that what you will. I'm aware that doesn't mean much.

7. I'm referring to the last vid you linked with Vallun

2. PU mes has more stealth than meta thief.
3. If you watch some of the other videos I linked, I deliberately did not burst Vallun several times after entering stealth. This forced him to blow 3-4 defensive cooldowns because he knew he could've been 100-0'd at any given moment.
4. The mesmer can delay Illusionary Leap in order to land the immobilize after a defensive cooldown. He can also wait for the dodge before mantra bursting after the evade frame.
5. Mur does this thing where he torch 4 stealths behind LoS before getting to mid, blinks, jaunts, and mirage thrusts into a mantra burst on a target getting to mid. He covers about half the map in under 3 seconds and catches his enemies off guard.

2. For the current meta, sure. But any dagger/pistol setup has more than any mesmer can produce. Also S/D Is better for actually fighting on points.
3. I only watched the videos you linked in response to me, I'm not digging through thread. But how is this any different vs backstab builds that can stealth longer and stun through blocks? People have fought against long stealths for so long it's nothing new, and the mesmer window is quite forgiving to the one receiving. Difference is when the mesmer wiffs they don't get to just go into stealth and try again. Which if we're talking about unfair that would be where I draw the line. If mesmers they wiff and they either run away giving me the point, or fight normally. In terms of conquest this isn't unfair.
4. Could also just kill the clone to deny the port, or kite it.
5. The criteria was without blowing other lengthy cooldowns, of which I count blink and jaunt charges, but okay? I don't see how this is over powered or unfair in conquest. Any other +1 or gank build can do the same, and historically has. This can still be played around by map awareness and is just part of the dynamic of mid fight.

Also if we're going to point out what 2/10 consistent top players can do what about the others? Why are these the ones that are unfair and need to be deleted? Sounds like you don't want it capable of reaching top 10, or you are arguing by balance that isn't based around 5v5 conquest.

[apharma.3741]

@shadowpass.4236 said:@"apharma.3741"

You people cannot go and say, "There's no one in the top 10 with the build" and "Leaderboards don't matter" at the same time.

"This is me saying that I do not agree with your premise that rank and leaderboard position denotes the strength or skill of the build."

You wanted to see a larger sample size than a handful of games I played on the build, so I countered with the fact that there's been multiple mantra mesmers in the top 10 since the leaderboards have been released. Then you said the leaderboards aren't indicative of skill, so I countered with proof of two days worth of ranked ques on the mantra mesmer build.

I have a higher winrate and kill-death ratio on this spec than I do on my main that I have 5,600 hours on. This shouldn't be the case. I have a handful of hours on a glass cannon build, yet I'm consistently rolling over players every match and dying a very, very small number of times. I've also oneshot/killed several good players, including some that have defended the spec in this thread.

You accuse me of cherry picking my arguments when I lay all of my cards out on the table. Yet you and several others insist on moving the goalposts constantly. So, you're telling me that video and picture proof, from several different sources, are entirely subjective? lol... please. Tell me what proof you'd like to see that this spec is busted.

Would you like hundreds... no, thousands of players all running mantra mesmers? Because from what you're telling me, the amount of players using the build in question is indicative of skill. In that case, I disagree.

Which wasn't my argument in the first place but thanks for listening.

Yes I wanted to see a larger and more consistent sample size however a few people on the leaderboard isn't that big when you compare it to the prevalence of condi mirage, holosmith, spellbreaker and indeed most builds you see etc. YOUR SAMPLE SIZES ARE TOO SMALL AND INCONSISTENT

Again you keep swapping class screwing up any accurate evaluation of your win rate.

Finally you get it, it's not indicative of skill, that's your argument and what you build your entire post on, that it doesn't require skill. I'm not moving the goal posts at all I've been very consistent, now for the sixth time:

@"apharma.3741" said:For the third fourth fifth time: "If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes."

You need numbers of players playing the build in ranked to the level of current Holo and condi Mirage so it shows on ANet's statistics. I don't know how I can spell it out any more.

[shadowpass.4236]

@"apharma.3741"

"Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA, a region I can't play with and which plays at times I'm either in bed or at work or players that have not made a name for themselves? That's without pointing out the poor reasoning that the top 10 is indicative of a players skill anymore, I mean you don't see any WTS, World Championship or any big competition winners there."

"Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA?" - Apharma"Top 10 isn't indicative of skill" - Apharma

I disagree with your assessment. The top 10 is harder to get into than you're making it seem and the same players have been consistently finished there regardless of team que, solo que, or duo que. Top 10 is indicative of a player's skill. You'd see WTS, WC, or any big competition winners there if PvP was still supported by ESL or Anet. So your argument that the lack of any tournament winners from 5 years ago means that they aren't as skilled is very faulty.

The samples I picked are about as consistent as they can get. This is what you're having trouble understanding. You don't need thousands of players to be running the same build (lol? guess everything is balanced then) in order to pass judgment. Good mantra mesmer players have consistently placed in the top 10 since the leaderboards came out. If you can get into the top 10 with a build, it means it's generally a very strong carry.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Daishi.6027 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@Daishi.6027

2. Map awareness will not help you when the enemy stealths from literally halfway across the map. How are you going to be aware of someone that is completely invisible? Have you ever heard of stealth decaps? Are you just magically aware of the thief passing you?
3. So why couldn't Vallun react to
   this
   ? He clearly saw me stealth. Oh! Maybe because the burst is instant? The 3/4 second cast time on greatsword
   doesn't
   matter when the mesmer is invisible and they can't see it anyways!
4. Incorrect. If you evade the initial burst, they will cast Phantasmal Berserker next and have access to their second charges for Mantra of Pain and Mantra of Distraction. They can also interrupt you with Illusionary Wave and continue to burst you by swapping into s/t for Illusionary Leap -> Swap into Blurred Frenzy + Cry of Frustration. As I told Shao, this build isn't as gimmicky as so many of you would like to believe. It's more than capable of killing someone/surviving outside of the oneshot combo. Even the sword auto attack chain can take away a significant portion of your health.
5. Currently, Mur is
   rank 2
   on mantra mesmer and he's been in the top 10 consistently since the leaderboards came out (among others like CJ). So, he's proven that mantra mesmer is very effective in Conquest as well as non-Conquest maps. I will repeat myself, again. If the mesmer stealths from HALFWAY across the map, out of the range of your vision/hearing, it is impossible to predict. And, again, for the umpteenth time, if whoever you're fighting stealths right in front of you, it's
   not
   hard to predict.
6. Again, I will state this, again and again and again... Shorts is not the best example of a mantra mesmer. Every single highly rated player I've mentioned or referenced in those videos/clips consistently place higher than Shorts. Fight against CJ or Mur if you want to see properly executed mantra bursts.
7. You see the mesmer on the mini map? You mean Shorts? He's out of combat. He wouldn't have shown up on Zeromis' mini map. Imagine not being able to step into an open field "within blink range" because at any given moment there's a spec that can instantly put you into downstate without any reasonable indication.

2. Off point is a different story anyways, and thief gets way more stealth and can take different routes. Mes as per your vid has a specific amount of time to reach the point since the start of stealth, and cannot renew it.

3. He could have, I would have. Pretty sure many would have. He had a dodge available, I could literally feel the landing of that hit and it wasn't instant; there was like 1/2 - 3/4 of a second following the prestige. Also:

@shadowpass.4236 said And, again, for the umpteenth time, if whoever you're fighting stealths right in front of you, it's

not

hard to predict.

You admit this your self?

4. Zerk is kite-able and cleave-able, most builds have at least 3 dodges and a few other defensive cooldowns and you can avoid illusionary leap in so many ways and we're arguing about cry of frustration and sword auto on a power build now? lol.

5. It IS predictable. No matter how many times you repeat it it doesn't make it true in the face of map awareness. Also how do they prestige out of range of hearing and not create a gap where they can see or hear or blow any additional lengthy cooldowns? Also I'm sure Mur would make it regardless of the build played.

6. My point about shorts was about him killing Zeromis, also I have killed Mur before except they were condi at the time, and it was in FFA area, so take from that what you will. I'm aware that doesn't mean much.

7. I'm referring to the last vid you linked with Vallun

2. PU mes has more stealth than meta thief.
3. If you watch some of the other videos I linked, I deliberately did not burst Vallun several times after entering stealth. This forced him to blow 3-4 defensive cooldowns because he knew he could've been 100-0'd at any given moment.
4. The mesmer can delay Illusionary Leap in order to land the immobilize after a defensive cooldown. He can also wait for the dodge before mantra bursting after the evade frame.
5. Mur does this thing where he torch 4 stealths behind LoS before getting to mid, blinks, jaunts, and mirage thrusts into a mantra burst on a target getting to mid. He covers about half the map in under 3 seconds and catches his enemies off guard.

2. For the current meta, sure. But any dagger/pistol setup has more than any mesmer can produce. Also S/D Is better for actually fighting on points.

3. I only watched the videos you linked in response to me, I'm not digging through thread. But how is this any different vs backstab builds that can stealth longer and stun through blocks? People have fought against long stealths for so long it's nothing new, and the mesmer window is quite forgiving to the one receiving. Difference is when the mesmer wiffs they don't get to just go into stealth and try again. Which if we're talking about unfair that would be where I draw the line. If mesmers they wiff and they either run away giving me the point, or fight normally. In terms of conquest this isn't unfair.

4. Could also just kill the clone to deny the port, or kite it.

5. The criteria was without blowing other lengthy cooldowns, of which I count blink and jaunt charges, but okay? I don't see how this is over powered or unfair in conquest. Any other +1 or gank build can do the same, and historically has. This can still be played around by map awareness and is just part of the dynamic of mid fight.

6. Also if we're going to point out what 2/10 consistent top players can do what about the others? Why are these the ones that are unfair and need to be deleted? Sounds like you don't want it capable of reaching top 10, or you are arguing by balance that isn't based around 5v5 conquest.

2. D/P thieves can get 9 seconds of stealth before running out of initiative. They are also forced to stay in the same small area and cannot apply enough pressure to down someone during this time. On the other hand, a PU mesmer can simply cast a single skill once, get 9 seconds of stealth in an AoE and pulsing protective boons, and proceed to walk halfway across the map invisible and whilst still having enough instantaneous damage to 100-0 anyone in the game without them knowing.
3. After the first mass invis. After the I torch 4 stealthed while at low health at mid.
4. Yeah and then when you go to kill the clone you get Power Locked mid-animation into Diversion into an instantaneous 100-0.
5. ??? lol you don't need to use blink or jaunt. I literally posted a
   of me walking across the map after using Mass Invis + Torch 4. Like... what are you even saying? lol
6. I never said either of those two things. Don't put words in my mouth. If 10-20% of the spots in the top 10 are consistently filled by mantra mesmers, that means the build is very strong. Shorts is usually in the top 50. I'm currently in the top 50 on mantra mesmer even though I have a handful of hours on it. A.K.A. anyone remotely skilled could practice on mantras for an hour and achieve the same results.

[apharma.3741]

@shadowpass.4236 said:@"apharma.3741"

"Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA, a region I can't play with and which plays at times I'm either in bed or at work or players that have not made a name for themselves? That's without pointing out the poor reasoning that the top 10 is indicative of a players skill anymore, I mean you don't see any WTS, World Championship or any big competition winners there."

"Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA?" - Apharma"Top 10 isn't indicative of skill" - Apharma

I disagree with your assessment. The top 10 is harder to get into than you're making it seem and the same players have been consistently finished there regardless of team que, solo que, or duo que. Top 10 is indicative of a player's skill. You'd see WTS, WC, or any big competition winners there if PvP was still supported by ESL or Anet. So your argument that the lack of any tournament winners from 5 years ago means that they aren't as skilled is very faulty.

The samples I picked are about as consistent as they can get. This is what you're having trouble understanding. You don't need thousands of players to be running the same build (lol? guess everything is balanced then) in order to pass judgment. Good mantra mesmer players have consistently placed in the top 10 since the leaderboards came out. If you can get into the top 10 with a build, it means it's generally a very strong carry.

Thanks for linking a post from 3 months ago that says exactly what I said now that top 10 on a leaderboard is not indicative of skill anymore, glad we've established I'm consistent.

You've removed the context from those statements though, it was in response to Mr Boyer saying I should watch and pay attention to players in NA who hold and play in regular tournament that are hidden from general viewership and scrutiny.

Your argument is that a guy who places consistently in top 10 is in the top 10 and then you're trying to associate a link to it being because of mantra mesmer, as far as I know there's no "evidence" being presented that his position is down to mantra mesmer. However you put a lot of stock into simply being on the leaderboard also:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Again, Mur is currently rank 2 on mantra mesmer and he's been in the top 10 consistently since the leaderboards came out. CJ has also been high up there and Shorts is usually on the leaderboards when he plays mantras as well. So, it's pretty clear that the build works at a high level.

Your examples are not consistent, you switch classes plenty of times. You played 21 ranked games from what I counted originally, 16 were on mesmer 3 were on engineer and 2 were on ranger which means for a quarter of your ranked games you weren't playing mantra mesmer.

No you seem to not understand, dev time is limited, they fix problem builds when they come up and when they're being actual problems so if their stats don't show that something is performing too well it won't get touched for a long time hence....you know it's coming.....wait for it....

For the third fourth fifth sixth seventh time: "If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes."

You need numbers of players playing the build in ranked to the level of current Holo and condi Mirage so it shows on ANet's statistics. I don't know how I can spell it out any more.

[shadowpass.4236]

@apharma.3741 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@apharma.3741

"

Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA, a region I can't play with and which plays at times I'm either in bed or at work or players that have not made a name for themselves?

That's without pointing out the poor reasoning that the top 10 is indicative of a players skill anymore, I mean you don't see any WTS, World Championship or any big competition winners there.

"

"Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA?" - Apharma"Top 10 isn't indicative of skill" - Apharma

I disagree with your assessment. The top 10 is harder to get into than you're making it seem and the same players have been

consistently

finished there regardless of team que, solo que, or duo que. Top 10

is

indicative of a player's skill. You'd see WTS, WC, or any big competition winners there if PvP was still supported by ESL or Anet. So your argument that the lack of any tournament winners from 5 years ago means that they aren't as skilled is very faulty.

The samples I picked are about as consistent as they can get. This is what you're having trouble understanding. You don't need thousands of players to be running the same build (lol? guess everything is balanced then) in order to pass judgment. Good mantra mesmer players have

consistently

placed in the top 10 since the leaderboards came out. If you can get into the top 10 with a build, it means it's generally a very strong carry.

Thanks for linking a post from 3 months ago that says exactly what I said now that top 10 on a leaderboard is not indicative of skill anymore, glad we've established I'm consistent.

You've removed the context from those statements though, it was in response to Mr Boyer saying I should watch and pay attention to players in NA who hold and play in regular tournament that are hidden from general viewership and scrutiny.

Your argument is that a guy who places consistently in top 10 is in the top 10 and then you're trying to associate a link to it being because of mantra mesmer, as far as I know there's no "evidence" being presented that his position is down to mantra mesmer. However you put a lot of stock into simply being on the leaderboard also:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Again, Mur is

currently

rank 2 on mantra mesmer and he's been in the top 10 consistently since the leaderboards came out. CJ has also been high up there and Shorts is usually on the leaderboards when he plays mantras as well. So, it's pretty clear that the build works at a high level.

Your examples are not consistent, you switch classes plenty of times. You played 21 ranked games from what I counted originally, 16 were on mesmer 3 were on engineer and 2 were on ranger which means for a quarter of your ranked games you weren't playing mantra mesmer.

No you seem to not understand, dev time is limited, they fix problem builds when they come up and when they're being actual problems so if their stats don't show that something is performing too well it won't get touched for a long time hence....you know it's coming.....wait for it....

For the

third

fourth

fifth

sixth

seventh time: "If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes."

You need numbers of players playing the build in ranked to the level of current Holo and condi Mirage so it shows on ANet's statistics. I don't know how I can spell it out any more.

"Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA?" - Apharma"Top 10 isn't indicative of skill" - Apharma

Mur and CJ are both known as mantra mesmer players. No "evidence" comes down to the fact that you're on EU and haven't played against them. By definition, the top 10 spots on the leaderboards are hard to get and indicative of skill. There are more reasons to put stock in them than they are reasons to do otherwise.

So you're saying the fact that nearly 80% of my games played this season are on mesmer is inconsistent? What percentage would you like it to be? 100%? 110%? Would you like 200% of my games played this season on mesmer? How about placing a ban on my account, disabling me from playing any other classes just so I can be "consistent" in your eyes. Get real here. 16/21 games played on mesmer (76%!) is plenty consistent. Mur and CJ playing 120 games (not all of them are on mantra mesmer!) and placing in the top 10 since the leaderboards came out is about as consistent and large of a sample size as you'll get for a true representation of the capabilities of the build.

"This thread is my attempt to spread the word, as are the ques I've been doing these past few days on mantra mesmer. I'm not disagreeing with you on this, so you can stop repeating yourself over and over again."

So you're telling me to spread the word, yet are arguing against my attempt to spread the word. That's counterintuitive, right?

[Shao.7236]

@shadowpass.4236 said:Diversion stuns you every time, every 23 seconds while traited with Confounding Suggestions + MoD channel.

I'm not talking about Diversion the skill, just the idea that in 1v1 vs someone that's conscious, Mesmer can't hold node for a second against anyone. Bet that was the same case when you actually fought CJ regardless. Hence why you need assistance, for the better word.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Shao.7236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Diversion stuns you every time, every 23 seconds while traited with Confounding Suggestions + MoD channel.

I'm not talking about Diversion the skill, just the idea that in 1v1 vs someone that's conscious, Mesmer can't hold node for a second against anyone. Bet that was the same case when you actually fought CJ regardless. Hence why you need assistance, for the better word.

Actually, chrono bunker is still absurdly tanky simply by rotating through defensive cooldowns. They can hold the node pretty well.

It's actually fairly easy to decap a node as a mantra mesmer. Against a holosmith for example, landing the initial burst and forcing them into Elixir S will almost completely decap it, then an Illusionary Wave or some additional instant cast mantra pressure will force them to leave the node at 20% health or risk dying on it. This goes for any class with invulnerability/stealth skills that they'd use to avoid the followup damage if they didn't already die.