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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience

1- No forms of difficulty scaling.

2- The way your professions were designed... https://massivelyop.com/2019/03/28/massively-overthinking-thoughts-on-the-holy-trinity-in-mmos/

“Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer – the DPS players were a given, the warm bodies that filled out the rest of the group, and not part of the trinity back in the early pre-WoW days of MMO group content. The fact that this shifted over time really says all you need to know about how MMO class and combat design have changed, and not necessarily for the better.

Don’t mistake me; I no longer believe we need or must respect a trinity of either type. But what I truly resent is the loss of class variation and combat flow that naturally accompanied the demise of the classic trinity, specifically the fact that crowd control, buffing, and debuffing classes have all but disappeared in the modern rush to make nearly everyone a damage-dealer, even the healers and tanks.

As an example, I can still think of none better than City of Heroes, which offered all of the old trinity and new trinity class types (and then some) but made none of them actually mandatory to clear content. Yes, tanks and healers and CCers and buffers and debuffers and damage dealers all existed, but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers. Whatever. I don’t want to see strict trinity MMOs, but I’m even grumpier about the “everyone deeps” MMOs even more, especially when the end result is cluster**** combat where nobody ever has control over the fight. It didn’t have to be that way, but modernish devs keep reinventing the wheel, convinced they can do better. Maybe someday, they will, but so far, nah.”

Note- that "cluster" comment was a link to the GW2 section on MOP.

3- Combining number 1 + 2 ultimately created a toxic environment for instanced content that most people don't want to be part of.

<13456712

Comments

  • Stalvros.9217Stalvros.9217 Member ✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers.

    It's actually possible to clear some of boss(es) by using all healers :)

    I mean, if by your idea of non-toxic environment and fun is to clear a raid boss is to clear it within 30+ minutes when you can clear it in less then 5, by all means :). I believe there are also clips where some of the raid bosses were actually low-manned :)

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stalvros.9217 said:

    but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers.

    It's actually possible to clear some of boss(es) by using all healers :)

    I mean, if by your idea of non-toxic environment and fun is to clear a raid boss is to clear it within 30+ minutes when you can clear it in less then 5, by all means :). I believe there are also clips where some of the raid bosses were actually low-manned :)

    And the point is? I mean, are you defending this end result? "They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract."

    Did you miss this fact? "the small audience they attract."

    All is good with "the small audience", right? No problems here...

  • Jayden Reese.9542Jayden Reese.9542 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Then don't be a part of it? Why does it bother you that something you don't want to do is in GW2? Is it the simple fact it exists? Is it they divert time to make something you don't want to do instead of more pve stuff? That toxicity exists? It's everywhere with or w/o raids just go pvp and see. It seems you want raid easier mode like wow and somehow think that won't be toxic at times. I just don't get your issue

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Then don't be a part of it? Why does it bother you that something you don't want to do is in GW2? Is it the simple fact it exists? Is it they divert time to make something you don't want to do instead of more pve stuff? That toxicity exists? It's everywhere with or w/o raids just go pvp and see. It seems you want raid easier mode like wow and somehow think that won't be toxic at times. I just don't get your issue

    I'm pretty sure OP is lamenting the fact that raids are not ultimately enjoyable and really wish for them to become better, also probably plays them, or have played them successfully before. This particular topic (finally) seems to have nothing to do with difficulty. It's also a much more broad criticism of how the devs failed to properly overhaul the supposed stale holy trinity of classes. Interestingly I pretty much agree with the OP's quote: they even missed the mark on what they were overhauling - since the 3 absolute musts before the times of WoW (see for example Lineage games) were not DPS, tank and heals - but rather buffers, tanks, and healers, with DPS becoming a kind of inverted cannon fodder to simply fill all the less important slots. Now we are all DPS with varying degrees of how relevant our DPS is related to our (mostly passive) buffing.

    To complement the OP I'd say that their formula does work for the open world and arguably also works pretty well for more "junk food" content such as fractals. Their raid content leans very much towards requiring a soft return to the old system (with toughness-based mechanics not seem elsewhere and forced debuffing phases for example), which is a testament to how their class design doesn't really fit this kind of game mode. I disagree on it being a clusterkitten and believe they honestly did the best they could with what they had. Dhuum is the stellar example of what we should have plenty more of, but on the other hand, it is also pretty much a fight from an action game, with timing mechanics and motions like a dance trumping over the strategy and adaptation that is more typical of raids from games that do have more of a holy trinity of classes. This is neither good nor bad but definitely different from what people came to know as "raiding". Perhaps our raids should have been called "Strikes" all along since W1 instead of the former very loaded word.

    But really, none of this and none of the discussions about difficulty are as bad as the fact that the release cadence got worse to the point of finally stopping, this is definitely the one thing that makes people quit anything: lack of continuity and consistency. Anet has been very, very bad at maintaining content consistently and releasing things that have newer, flashy names don't help at all. MMOs can't be developed like startups, you can't simply drop entire lines of content in favor of new systems and expect players to tag along as if they didn't really care about the older gameplay modes.

  • Stalvros.9217Stalvros.9217 Member ✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Then don't be a part of it? Why does it bother you that something you don't want to do is in GW2? Is it the simple fact it exists? Is it they divert time to make something you don't want to do instead of more pve stuff? That toxicity exists? It's everywhere with or w/o raids just go pvp and see. It seems you want raid easier mode like wow and somehow think that won't be toxic at times. I just don't get your issue

    This is what I get from the message as well :)

    Essentially; Other games has it easier, why shouldn't this one be too!

    That being said: I do agree with OP the statement that not many of the population raids?
    At least, that's just the statistics that we can see from gw2 efficiency? (Only less then 5% of the population that registered their API with the site has Legendary Insight?)

    As to the reason why;
    Probby due to toxicity? But the thing is, it's NOT un-achieveable!
    I remember my 1st raiding experience as well (Was using basic necro rampager stat on Sloth-hazor, keeps dropping poison ON group and keeps screwing mechanics). It was NOT enjoyable :(, but that experience changed when a very experienced player started teaching me the ways to clear it, which class to use. I'm not even going to argue with the fact that WHY should you use this class to clear this? WHY can't you use that class? It's all just abt - u wanna clear raids? This is the most efficient way to do it! U wanna do it? This is the way to do it based on the settings / limitation of the game design! Don't want to? Okay!

    And just so we are clear, raid players suffers too :(.
    I know a lot of people who build chrono thinking that they make a good tank and boon giver (they still do btw), but the nerfs that's been made to the class :(. We spent hours grinding, optimising the class and the nerf hammer hits :(. Still, either you can complain abt it or just make another class to fill in the gap. Although they may not be as effective as before the nerf, as long as you get to enjoy playing the game with your friends trying out different tactics to acquire the kills to get them sweet sweet LOOTS, why not :).

    Raid can still be fun~
    Maybe NOT the way you want it to be fun but..... it can be :).
    On that note, if you are a new player and would like to learn more abt raiding, pls do not hesitate to contact me :). I would definitely love to help (Its the least I could do to give back to the community) and would love to see the raiding community grow :)

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Stalvros.9217 said:
    At least, that's just the statistics that we can see from gw2 efficiency? (Only less then 5% of the population that registered their API with the site has Legendary Insight?)

    29.989% of the 223,689 accounts tracked on gw2 efficiency have killed Vale Guardian.

    So the OP is wrong about Raids attracting small audience. We even had comments by the developers telling us that Raids exceeded their expectations in terms of popularity. But that was during Heart of Thorns, when the game had a more active overall population.

    The highest number of the Key of Adhasim is 6.094% and it does look bad, but we have to take into account that the active population is also much lower now

    It's not a problem with the population of Raids, it's a problem with the population of the game.

    I’m wrong?

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97028/a-message-from-andrew-gray

    "They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract."

    Do you understand the meaning of that comment?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    “Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer – the DPS players were a given, the warm bodies that filled out the rest of the group, and not part of the trinity back in the early pre-WoW days of MMO group content. The fact that this shifted over time really says all you need to know about how MMO class and combat design have changed, and not necessarily for the better.

    Don’t mistake me; I no longer believe we need or must respect a trinity of either type. But what I truly resent is the loss of class variation and combat flow that naturally accompanied the demise of the classic trinity, specifically the fact that crowd control, buffing, and debuffing classes have all but disappeared in the modern rush to make nearly everyone a damage-dealer, even the healers and tanks.

    Ironically, what keeps being forgotten is that the emergence of holy trinity model itself was the moment that started the loss of class variation and combat flow. All the rest is a simple consequence of that initial model. Remember, that at the very core of the model lies the idea of pushing all the necessary roles towards specialized players, so that the dps needs not worry about it. The changes you bring up as something that changed the old model for the worse are nothing more than further streamlining (you can say, "perfecting") of that original idea.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The point is Raid participation used to be fine, they both admitted that by saying it's higher than in most games AND by saying that they are planning more frequent raid releases (something that didn't really happen)

    We don't really know what statistics they used as a basis of that statement. For all we know they might have compared the number of raid players to population of top difficulty raid instances, or to populations of raids shortly after they were introduced (so, before most of raiders even managed to get geared enough to run them). They also said nothing about "most games" - just "other games we've seen". Which games specifically? We have no idea.
    Whatever they based this opinion on, it was also when first raid wings were still fresh. In short, before most people trying them gave up, and when they still thought that many other PvE players would get pushed towards that content (which never happened).

    So yes, they were hopeful then. But, apparently, for one reason or another (either because something changed, or because they actually misread the data, like they happened to do on many other occasions) that didn't last.

    edit: and the even more laughable argument of "Raids are hard that's why they aren't being run", that would make sense if Wings 6 and 7 were actually much harder than the previous ones, since they admitted that earlier Raids were doing fine. Is it because the HOT raids were so much easier than POF raids that led to the decline? Please

    Considering that when wings 6 and 7 came, the decline was already a done deal, their difficulty level seems mostly inconsequential. Wing 5 difficulty however might have played a part.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Whatever they based this opinion on, it was also when first raid wings were still fresh. In short, before most people trying them gave up, and when they still thought that many other PvE players would get pushed towards that content (which never happened).

    The second link is from after the release of Daybreak. Were the first Raid wings still "fresh" after Daybreak was released? Raid popularity was a done deal by that point, they had the data of how popular it was. And they made the comment about "more frequent releases".

    Considering that when wings 6 and 7 came, the decline was already a done deal, their difficulty level seems mostly inconsequential. Wing 5 difficulty however might have played a part.

    Or maybe the fact that it took them 10 months to release Wing 6, even after promising more frequent releases played a very very important role. A lot can happen in 10 months and it was up to the Season 4 content to keep the attention of the players and apparently it didn't succeed in that. The difficulty of Wing 5 should've played a role too, it's not a very good idea to "start" the new Raid series with the hardest one. And that's after promising that future Raids will be more like Spirit Vale and not like Bastion of the Penitent.

    So yes, they were hopeful then. But, apparently, for one reason or another (either because something changed, or because they actually misread the data, like they happened to do on many other occasions) that didn't last.

    The same can be said about their current situation when they put ALL Raids in the same basket as if they are all the same in regards to their difficulty.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Whatever they based this opinion on, it was also when first raid wings were still fresh. In short, before most people trying them gave up, and when they still thought that many other PvE players would get pushed towards that content (which never happened).

    The second link is from after the release of Daybreak. Were the first Raid wings still "fresh" after Daybreak was released? Raid popularity was a done deal by that point, they had the data of how popular it was. And they made the comment about "more frequent releases".

    Considering that when wings 6 and 7 came, the decline was already a done deal, their difficulty level seems mostly inconsequential. Wing 5 difficulty however might have played a part.

    Or maybe the fact that it took them 10 months to release Wing 6, even after promising more frequent releases played a very very important role. A lot can happen in 10 months and it was up to the Season 4 content to keep the attention of the players and apparently it didn't succeed in that.

    Leaving ppl farming the same content for 3/4 of a year does that to participation and engagement. Early post hot lw squad, where you at?

    The difficulty of Wing 5 should've played a role too, it's not a very good idea to "start" the new Raid series with the hardest one. And that's after promising that future Raids will be more like Spirit Vale and not like Bastion of the Penitent.

    You cant tell me every mmo that basicly releases raids in their game does it wrong because they keep the harder bosses for later in their tier and gw2 does it right because it doesnt follow that same structure.

    (not saying you claim that mad, its a sentiment ive seen in these forums, that having the harder stuff early is somehow good?)

    Esp when getting the first step of an leggie item requires to do the hardest encounters.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:
    You cant tell me every mmo that basicly releases raids in their game does it wrong because they keep the harder bosses for later in their tier and gw2 does it right because it doesnt follow that same structure.

    (not saying you claim that mad, its a sentiment ive seen in these forums, that having the harder stuff early is somehow good?)

    Esp when getting the first step of an leggie item requires to do the hardest encounters.

    I don't know why would -anyone- like the harder content released first. Even more so since, as you said, you need to do the achievements in order.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    You cant tell me every mmo that basicly releases raids in their game does it wrong because they keep the harder bosses for later in their tier and gw2 does it right because it doesnt follow that same structure.

    (not saying you claim that mad, its a sentiment ive seen in these forums, that having the harder stuff early is somehow good?)

    Esp when getting the first step of an leggie item requires to do the hardest encounters.

    I don't know why would -anyone- like the harder content released first. Even more so since, as you said, you need to do the achievements in order.

    Ill try and look for the quote its from pro layoffs tho iirc.

  • It's really just the lack of difficulty scaling. Fixing that will add a bunch of players. Adding a bunch of players will solve your trinity shortages.

  • not enough gold from raids yo

  • Jayden Reese.9542Jayden Reese.9542 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Then don't be a part of it? Why does it bother you that something you don't want to do is in GW2? Is it the simple fact it exists? Is it they divert time to make something you don't want to do instead of more pve stuff? That toxicity exists? It's everywhere with or w/o raids just go pvp and see. It seems you want raid easier mode like wow and somehow think that won't be toxic at times. I just don't get your issue

    It's not that people don't want to do the content, it's that they either are or feel excluded from it because of the attitudes and reputation said content has gained from a number of it's players.
    Specially attitudes that become angry at any and all suggestion of more inclusive options to the content such as easier difficulty modes or story modes that would help a number of people gain vital hands on experience with raid mechanics that would allow them to go into the actual raid knowing what to do and how to recognize these mechanics.

    When people are made to feel unwelcome or like they're a burden, that alone is massive incentive to just never bother trying something.. and that plays a big part in how the larger majority of players see raids in GW2.

    Yeah and if they lower difficulty there will be players there in the lower levels toxic too. Just look at this strike prep for raids stuff. Toxicity there already so you want raids to be easier modes then these strikes? Sure if they that easy no one will be toxic. I never raided and i'm fine that raids exist for others where this op is against strikes let alone raids so I still don't get his point I just keep getting randos responding about how they feel like I'm excluding you in any way when I don't do that content either or t4 fractals but find plenty toxicity in wvw and pvp and dumb places like matriarch if god forbid it charges. If you feel unwelcome or a burden then you joining the wrong raid groups. Start with training etc with less toxic players or avoid it. Dropping to difficulty to story mode level where we can 1 spam thru it is just as bad an idea cause noone will learn and just quit the instant it gets harder whether it be story easy medium hard epic or w/e scales they give

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Considering that when wings 6 and 7 came, the decline was already a done deal, their difficulty level seems mostly inconsequential. Wing 5 difficulty however might have played a part.

    Or maybe the fact that it took them 10 months to release Wing 6, even after promising more frequent releases played a very very important role.

    It's not like everything was completely fine until well after wing 5, and problems only started after wing 6 took too long to get released. Remember, that many raiders never even moved past wing 4. It was Wing 5, not the long relase window between it and wing 6, what stopped them from doing any future raid content.
    Yes, the top raider teams liked that w5 was harder than all wings before it, and considered w4 difficulty to be a failure, but remember, that for a lot of players doing raids it was exactly the opposite - it was w4 difficulty they'd have preferred as a baseline.

    Notice also, that w6 and w7 did nothing for those players. While the difficulty of those wings was much easier for top teams that were able to perform mechanics well and had top tier dps, it was nothing of that sort for everyone else. For people that found w4 their perfect difficulty level, w6 and w7 were as much of a disappointment as w5.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    Deleted by user

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    GW2 raids are in a real Catch-22 situation right now. There aren't enough resources to put them out at the pace needed to keep people playing and there aren't enough people playing them to justify the additional resources. This is compounded by the diminished number of players/income in the game overall.

    Regardless of their popularity when they came out, we've known for years this was the direction raids were heading. The model was just unsustainable. Given what we are seeing, unfortunately, at this point, it's probably better to just abandon them and focus on improving other areas in the game (including integrating more difficult content into those areas).

  • honestly its over 7 years. I dont know why ppl that wants a holy trinity still plays this game.
    I LOVE the NO TRINITY SYSTEM, where everyone is responsible for himself, everyone can support and damage, even healers.

    The reason that raids doesnt appeal is because theres incentive from the game to do it. They should have tied a story mode version of it on the campaigns, forcing players to at least do it in story soloable mode.
    Most of players, including myself, gives up on the beginning because it got sooo hard to get in and the rewards doesnt worth and the story is non-existant that i just dont want to bother myself doing that

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Considering that when wings 6 and 7 came, the decline was already a done deal, their difficulty level seems mostly inconsequential. Wing 5 difficulty however might have played a part.

    Or maybe the fact that it took them 10 months to release Wing 6, even after promising more frequent releases played a very very important role.

    It's not like everything was completely fine until well after wing 5, and problems only started after wing 6 took too long to get released. Remember, that many raiders never even moved past wing 4. It was Wing 5, not the long relase window between it and wing 6, what stopped them from doing any future raid content.
    Yes, the top raider teams liked that w5 was harder than all wings before it, and considered w4 difficulty to be a failure, but remember, that for a lot of players doing raids it was exactly the opposite - it was w4 difficulty they'd have preferred as a baseline.

    Notice also, that w6 and w7 did nothing for those players. While the difficulty of those wings was much easier for top teams that were able to perform mechanics well and had top tier dps, it was nothing of that sort for everyone else. For people that found w4 their perfect difficulty level, w6 and w7 were as much of a disappointment as w5.

    Wasnt the cadence kittened since w3 tho? Iirc the w8 or w4 and then w5 was also substantial.

    But yeah w6 and w7 esp was a classic case of the content not catering to anyone, that coupled with an unhealthy cadence and why would anyone stick around for that when ff14 and wow do it more often and better.

  • Because raids were designed by 9 year olds.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Considering that when wings 6 and 7 came, the decline was already a done deal, their difficulty level seems mostly inconsequential. Wing 5 difficulty however might have played a part.

    Or maybe the fact that it took them 10 months to release Wing 6, even after promising more frequent releases played a very very important role.

    It's not like everything was completely fine until well after wing 5, and problems only started after wing 6 took too long to get released. Remember, that many raiders never even moved past wing 4. It was Wing 5, not the long relase window between it and wing 6, what stopped them from doing any future raid content.
    Yes, the top raider teams liked that w5 was harder than all wings before it, and considered w4 difficulty to be a failure, but remember, that for a lot of players doing raids it was exactly the opposite - it was w4 difficulty they'd have preferred as a baseline.

    Notice also, that w6 and w7 did nothing for those players. While the difficulty of those wings was much easier for top teams that were able to perform mechanics well and had top tier dps, it was nothing of that sort for everyone else. For people that found w4 their perfect difficulty level, w6 and w7 were as much of a disappointment as w5.

    Wasnt the cadence kittened since w3 tho? Iirc the w8 or w4 and then w5 was also substantial.

    Yes, there was a release cadence change between w3 and w4 (mostly not because w4 took longer than previous wings, but because most of the release time for first 3 wings got hidden due to them being developed alongside HoT and people simply weren;t aware how long they really took). I'm not talking about people that left during that gap, though. I am talking about groups that were still there when w5 got released, attempted it, and then said "nah, let's stick to older wings and not bother with this one". In fact, many of those groups were still doing fine when w6 appeared - they were just not doing w5. And when they attempted w6, realized it's still not for them (even when top raiders were complaining about how w6 was a disappointment difficulty wise)... well, they just stopped playing.

    Top raider groups might have thought that w4-w5, (and then w5-w6) was a big gap, but the groups i was talking about ended up having a much greater content gap, because for them w5 was practically not there. And, as i mentioned, it's not like w6 and w7 were any better.
    Many raiding groups were waiting for another w4. They never got it.

    But yeah w6 and w7 esp was a classic case of the content not catering to anyone, that coupled with an unhealthy cadence and why would anyone stick around for that when ff14 and wow do it more often and better.

    Precisely. And this error could have been resolved if only there was more than one difficulty mode. Both groups could have obtained something for them, then.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    only cuz of the need for 10players, otherwise its a waste of time.

    loot isnt that great either too

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer

    the heck is a mezzer?

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Then don't be a part of it? Why does it bother you that something you don't want to do is in GW2? Is it the simple fact it exists? Is it they divert time to make something you don't want to do instead of more pve stuff? That toxicity exists? It's everywhere with or w/o raids just go pvp and see. It seems you want raid easier mode like wow and somehow think that won't be toxic at times. I just don't get your issue

    It's not that people don't want to do the content, it's that they either are or feel excluded from it because of the attitudes and reputation said content has gained from a number of it's players.
    Specially attitudes that become angry at any and all suggestion of more inclusive options to the content such as easier difficulty modes or story modes that would help a number of people gain vital hands on experience with raid mechanics that would allow them to go into the actual raid knowing what to do and how to recognize these mechanics.

    When people are made to feel unwelcome or like they're a burden, that alone is massive incentive to just never bother trying something.. and that plays a big part in how the larger majority of players see raids in GW2.

    Yeah and if they lower difficulty there will be players there in the lower levels toxic too. Just look at this strike prep for raids stuff. Toxicity there already so you want raids to be easier modes then these strikes? Sure if they that easy no one will be toxic. I never raided and i'm fine that raids exist for others where this op is against strikes let alone raids so I still don't get his point I just keep getting randos responding about how they feel like I'm excluding you in any way when I don't do that content either or t4 fractals but find plenty toxicity in wvw and pvp and dumb places like matriarch if god forbid it charges. If you feel unwelcome or a burden then you joining the wrong raid groups. Start with training etc with less toxic players or avoid it. Dropping to difficulty to story mode level where we can 1 spam thru it is just as bad an idea cause noone will learn and just quit the instant it gets harder whether it be story easy medium hard epic or w/e scales they give

    There wouldn't be toxicity in easy raids if there were no rewards.
    They would be done purely for story or training/experience purposes, failure would have no conciquences and success no rewards.
    Most experienced raiders wouldn't bother with them because of that and those that would do so with full knowledge that they are there to teach others.
    Under those circumstances toxicity would be pointless and moronic so it just wouldn't happen, or if it does extremely rarely.

    If you've never bothered with raids then you can't understand the significance of an easy mode.
    The difficulty does NOT! come from general combat like a typical boss creature, it comes mostly from the unique fight mechanics.. usually mechanics that will one shot you or your whole party if you screw them up.
    Just knowing what you have to do in the fight diminishes that dificulty spike significantly and that's the main problem for new players in raids.
    They don't know these mechanics and they don't know when to expect them or how to recognize their tells and it's very easy to get overwhelmed by them in normal raids.
    This is where having experience in the content makes all the difference and that experience can be obtained and easily transferred between easy and normal raid modes, simply by making these mechanics less punishing while taking nothing away from the actual fight itself.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Considering that when wings 6 and 7 came, the decline was already a done deal, their difficulty level seems mostly inconsequential. Wing 5 difficulty however might have played a part.

    Or maybe the fact that it took them 10 months to release Wing 6, even after promising more frequent releases played a very very important role.

    It's not like everything was completely fine until well after wing 5, and problems only started after wing 6 took too long to get released. Remember, that many raiders never even moved past wing 4. It was Wing 5, not the long relase window between it and wing 6, what stopped them from doing any future raid content.
    Yes, the top raider teams liked that w5 was harder than all wings before it, and considered w4 difficulty to be a failure, but remember, that for a lot of players doing raids it was exactly the opposite - it was w4 difficulty they'd have preferred as a baseline.

    Notice also, that w6 and w7 did nothing for those players. While the difficulty of those wings was much easier for top teams that were able to perform mechanics well and had top tier dps, it was nothing of that sort for everyone else. For people that found w4 their perfect difficulty level, w6 and w7 were as much of a disappointment as w5.

    Wasnt the cadence kittened since w3 tho? Iirc the w8 or w4 and then w5 was also substantial.

    Yes, there was a release cadence change between w3 and w4 (mostly not because w4 took longer than previous wings, but because most of the release time for first 3 wings got hidden due to them being developed alongside HoT and people simply weren;t aware how long they really took). I'm not talking about people that left during that gap, though. I am talking about groups that were still there when w5 got released, attempted it, and then said "nah, let's stick to older wings and not bother with this one". In fact, many of those groups were still doing fine when w6 appeared - they were just not doing w5. And when they attempted w6, realized it's still not for them (even when top raiders were complaining about how w6 was a disappointment difficulty wise)... well, they just stopped playing.

    Top raider groups might have thought that w4-w5, (and then w5-w6) was a big gap, but the groups i was talking about ended up having a much greater content gap, because for them w5 was practically not there. And, as i mentioned, it's not like w6 and w7 were any better.
    Many raiding groups were waiting for another w4. They never got it.

    But yeah w6 and w7 esp was a classic case of the content not catering to anyone, that coupled with an unhealthy cadence and why would anyone stick around for that when ff14 and wow do it more often and better.

    Precisely. And this error could have been resolved if only there was more than one difficulty mode. Both groups could have obtained something for them, then.

    Id argue with 2 or so difficulty settings more ppl would be playing the content but if the content still took the better part of the year to come out the engagement would go down overtime. I think the ppl that did w4 then w8 for w5 then decided "kitten w8ing aroumd a year for 4 bosses" and left pr stopped is greater than the ppl who skip w5.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    This is where having experience in the content makes all the difference and that experience can be obtained and easily transferred between easy and normal raid modes, simply by making these mechanics less punishing while taking nothing away from the actual fight itself.

    As I said in the other thread on the same subject, this is highly unlikely to work. If the mechanic is less punishing, then players won't do the mechanic properly. Period. If Sabetha's flamethrower starts dealing damage, instead of insta killing, players will be face-tanking it instead of dodging it. The assumption that a player will see a mechanic and say "Hey this would've killed me in the actual fight, next time I need to be more careful", is false, as demonstrated very easily if you play any kind of content in the game. You will see most players face tanking easily avoidable mechanics, instead of... avoiding them.

    That's because some people build their characters to do that in other game modes.. because they enjoy that kind of playstyle.
    Why would you bother dodging or avoiding attacks when you've built your character to be able to withstand them?.. that's the entire point of a tank.
    The only time this playstyle is ever a problem is when mr glass canon cares more about his DPS numbers than what's about to down him for the 5th time.

    You say people won't learn yet their sole reason to play easy is to learn..
    Unless they just want the story element in which case they don't have to care all that much.
    But those who want to raid properly will be playing to learn the mechanics, fully aware that the real thing is going to mess them up hard if they screw them up.
    Reading them up online is nowhere near as useful as actually experiencing them.. and since you can't go in and do that solo then you gotta find a group that's either willing to take you and teach you or inflitrate a group so you can learn at their expense.

    Edit: it's not easy mode but take a look at Gorseval and how players completely ignore the wall mechanic, because they can. Think of that Gorseval as an easy mode, and imagine there was a version of Gorseval that didn't allow that, but instead it required you to run to the wall. Now a player that learned how to fight Gorseval the easy way goes to this imaginary normal mode. Trying to do it the wrong way. The same can be applied to any kind of "less punishing mechanics" proposal.

    That's a mechanic flaw that frankly Anet should fix.
    If it's what you're supposed to do and people have a work around then that's just blatant exploiting.
    This example isn't relevant as it's based on skipping mechanics not learning how to recognize them and how to deal with them.
    It's not even remotely the same as Sabatha's flamethrower going from a one shot to a 70% hp shot in easy.. its more like giving you a Special action key to jump over the flamethrower instead.. that's not what easy mode would or should be.

    You are saying having experience in the content makes the difference. I say having the wrong experience will make a player a liability instead of an asset in the normal fight. It's better to get someone with zero experience than someone with the wrong experience.

    There ARE things that player could train for, but outside the fights themselves. Eating the orbs at Dhuum, going up the cannons at Sabetha, gliding between the platforms at Xera, are things a player could learn on their own, outside the hassle of the actual fight, and the penalty of wiping the entire group if they fail. This, I can understand.

    They won't have the wrong experience, they'll have exactly the same experience only with higher stakes for mistakes.
    You say they can learn these mechanics outside the fights but that simply isnt true.
    It would be if there were a training instance specifically for those mechanics or if dumbed down versions of these bosses appeared elsewhere in the game but they don't, the only way people will learn them is by experiencing them and the only way they can do that is by playing the raid and learning as they go.
    As I said reading about them and experiencing them are two very different things, I know that from experience because me and my friend group did a lot of prep work for our first raid which got pretty much thrown out the window once we actually started playing and we learned what we had to do via trail and error instead.
    Ultimately that made the raid far more enjoyable as well.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    They won't have the wrong experience, they'll have exactly the same experience only with higher stakes for mistakes.

    So a completely different experience. When the stakes are different, the experience is different, the way you deal with the mechanics is different and even the mentality towards the content is different. In the Sabetha example, if it doesn't kill you but does 70% of your health as damage, there would be zero reason to move and lose your dps while moving. Since the flamethrower only does the damage once, you can face tank it (on any build), expect to be healed (or get downed and get revived) and just dps.

    But those who want to raid properly will be playing to learn the mechanics, fully aware that the real thing is going to mess them up hard if they screw them up.

    Those who want to raid properly will join a training discord or a training guild and practice with them. Also, this type of easy mode is a recipe for disaster as having players with fundamentally different expectations doing the same content can have very bad results. In the Sabetha example again, in this "easy mode" where the flamethrower isn't an instant kill anymore the meta mechanic would be to stand still, out heal it, and not use potential dps due to moving around. The player that wants to "train as if it's the real thing" will rotate around, going away of the stack. Now in this example, he'll still be in buff range (unless messing up completely) but you can see how having different expectations can create all kinds of problems.

    How do you fit in this easy mode version both a player that is there for the rewards/efficiency AND a player that wants to train for the real thing? "Hey guys, I will do the mechanics as if they are real, you can ignore them since they aren't punishing" isn't going to work very well.

  • ancafr.9274ancafr.9274 Member ✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    1- No forms of difficulty scaling.

    2- The way your professions were designed... https://massivelyop.com/2019/03/28/massively-overthinking-thoughts-on-the-holy-trinity-in-mmos/

    “Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer – the DPS players were a given, the warm bodies that filled out the rest of the group, and not part of the trinity back in the early pre-WoW days of MMO group content. The fact that this shifted over time really says all you need to know about how MMO class and combat design have changed, and not necessarily for the better.

    Don’t mistake me; I no longer believe we need or must respect a trinity of either type. But what I truly resent is the loss of class variation and combat flow that naturally accompanied the demise of the classic trinity, specifically the fact that crowd control, buffing, and debuffing classes have all but disappeared in the modern rush to make nearly everyone a damage-dealer, even the healers and tanks.

    As an example, I can still think of none better than City of Heroes, which offered all of the old trinity and new trinity class types (and then some) but made none of them actually mandatory to clear content. Yes, tanks and healers and CCers and buffers and debuffers and damage dealers all existed, but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers. Whatever. I don’t want to see strict trinity MMOs, but I’m even grumpier about the “everyone deeps” MMOs even more, especially when the end result is cluster**** combat where nobody ever has control over the fight. It didn’t have to be that way, but modernish devs keep reinventing the wheel, convinced they can do better. Maybe someday, they will, but so far, nah.”

    Note- that "cluster" comment was a link to the GW2 section on MOP.

    3- Combining number 1 + 2 ultimately created a toxic environment for instanced content that most people don't want to be part of.

    Or maybe people are not interested? or maybe they dont have or dont want to use discord, skype etc etc cause they have a weak PC and they'll LAG if they use? or maybe there is not enough people even asking guild(one of my guilds 'VIP' has more than 2k members, usually 100+ on but when you ask 'help' or let's run t1, t2, etc noone answer)? or maybe when you are running a dungeon with random players 90% of them just GO RUSHING direct to the objective, no communication like ''every man for himself'' and we have to figure out what to do?

    ^perhaps.

    '' Hey Moxxi you should be bright orange, because this body... is LEGENDARY!''. (Borderlands 2 Drunk)

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    They won't have the wrong experience, they'll have exactly the same experience only with higher stakes for mistakes.

    So a completely different experience. When the stakes are different, the experience is different, the way you deal with the mechanics is different and even the mentality towards the content is different. In the Sabetha example, if it doesn't kill you but does 70% of your health as damage, there would be zero reason to move and lose your dps while moving. Since the flamethrower only does the damage once, you can face tank it (on any build), expect to be healed (or get downed and get revived) and just dps.

    What part of same mechanics, same experince, exclusively learning based purpose are you defining as completely different experience?
    I can't make it any more clear that it's the same content it just doesn't obliterate you for making a single mistake with one shot mechanics.. ergo showing you what you did wrong and what you need to learn how to avoid without wiping your party and having them rage at you for it.
    Even the most casual of players knows that attacks that wipe out most of your life bar are something to be avoided even if you can survive them.

    But those who want to raid properly will be playing to learn the mechanics, fully aware that the real thing is going to mess them up hard if they screw them up.

    Those who want to raid properly will join a training discord or a training guild and practice with them.

    If that were true raids would be significantly more popular than they currently are.
    Clearly this process doesnt work for most people.

    Also, this type of easy mode is a recipe for disaster as having players with fundamentally different expectations doing the same content can have very bad results. In the Sabetha example again, in this "easy mode" where the flamethrower isn't an instant kill anymore the meta mechanic would be to stand still, out heal it, and not use potential dps due to moving around. The player that wants to "train as if it's the real thing" will rotate around, going away of the stack. Now in this example, he'll still be in buff range (unless messing up completely) but you can see how having different expectations can create all kinds of problems.

    You're assuming people will do that despite knowing that they won't be able to in the real raid, and despite playing the easy mode for the sole purpose of learning those mechanics in the first place.
    They would get nothing out of the experience if they did that and most people would definitely know that before they went in.

    How do you fit in this easy mode version both a player that is there for the rewards/efficiency AND a player that wants to train for the real thing? "Hey guys, I will do the mechanics as if they are real, you can ignore them since they aren't punishing" isn't going to work very well.

    I already said the easy mode would give you no rewards, not even exp.. absolutely nothing would be rewarded upon success.
    It's purely for training purposes to give people hands on experience with the mechanics, map, bosses etc, rather than being a burden on a raid group who's trying to actually beat the content and failing because of you.. that scenario being a big reason why so many players give up and don't come back to this content.
    It won't matter in easy what the rest of the group does, you only need to focus on what you are doing and what the boss is doing the vast majority of the time.
    It's that experience that you take into normal raids where everyone else will be doing the same thing and expecting you to do the same.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I already said the easy mode would give you no rewards, not even exp.. absolutely nothing would be rewarded upon success.

    It wasn't in the post I quoted so I guess I missed that part, it was a bit higher. The drawbacks of joining in a discussion in progress. Good luck with asking for the implementation of content without rewards.

  • Jayden Reese.9542Jayden Reese.9542 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Then don't be a part of it? Why does it bother you that something you don't want to do is in GW2? Is it the simple fact it exists? Is it they divert time to make something you don't want to do instead of more pve stuff? That toxicity exists? It's everywhere with or w/o raids just go pvp and see. It seems you want raid easier mode like wow and somehow think that won't be toxic at times. I just don't get your issue

    It's not that people don't want to do the content, it's that they either are or feel excluded from it because of the attitudes and reputation said content has gained from a number of it's players.
    Specially attitudes that become angry at any and all suggestion of more inclusive options to the content such as easier difficulty modes or story modes that would help a number of people gain vital hands on experience with raid mechanics that would allow them to go into the actual raid knowing what to do and how to recognize these mechanics.

    When people are made to feel unwelcome or like they're a burden, that alone is massive incentive to just never bother trying something.. and that plays a big part in how the larger majority of players see raids in GW2.

    Yeah and if they lower difficulty there will be players there in the lower levels toxic too. Just look at this strike prep for raids stuff. Toxicity there already so you want raids to be easier modes then these strikes? Sure if they that easy no one will be toxic. I never raided and i'm fine that raids exist for others where this op is against strikes let alone raids so I still don't get his point I just keep getting randos responding about how they feel like I'm excluding you in any way when I don't do that content either or t4 fractals but find plenty toxicity in wvw and pvp and dumb places like matriarch if god forbid it charges. If you feel unwelcome or a burden then you joining the wrong raid groups. Start with training etc with less toxic players or avoid it. Dropping to difficulty to story mode level where we can 1 spam thru it is just as bad an idea cause noone will learn and just quit the instant it gets harder whether it be story easy medium hard epic or w/e scales they give

    There wouldn't be toxicity in easy raids if there were no rewards.
    They would be done purely for story or training/experience purposes, failure would have no conciquences and success no rewards.
    Most experienced raiders wouldn't bother with them because of that and those that would do so with full knowledge that they are there to teach others.
    Under those circumstances toxicity would be pointless and moronic so it just wouldn't happen, or if it does extremely rarely.

    If you've never bothered with raids then you can't understand the significance of an easy mode.
    The difficulty does NOT! come from general combat like a typical boss creature, it comes mostly from the unique fight mechanics.. usually mechanics that will one shot you or your whole party if you screw them up.
    Just knowing what you have to do in the fight diminishes that dificulty spike significantly and that's the main problem for new players in raids.
    They don't know these mechanics and they don't know when to expect them or how to recognize their tells and it's very easy to get overwhelmed by them in normal raids.
    This is where having experience in the content makes all the difference and that experience can be obtained and easily transferred between easy and normal raid modes, simply by making these mechanics less punishing while taking nothing away from the actual fight itself.

    1 as I said if you made it that easy and on top of that remove rewards. Do we remove achieves too? then yeah there would be no toxicity an no experienced raider would bother. It's like your saying the most basic kitten and think it isn't obvious. I never bothered with raids in GW2. Doesn't mean i never raided or don't understand the basic concept of raids so I really don't like the way you talk so after this don't respond again

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    But those who want to raid properly will be playing to learn the mechanics, fully aware that the real thing is going to mess them up hard if they screw them up.

    Those who want to raid properly will join a training discord or a training guild and practice with them.

    If that were true raids would be significantly more popular than they currently are.
    Clearly this process doesnt work for most people.

    It doesn't work for most people, because, surprise surprise, most people do not actually want to "raid properly". They are asking for easy raids specifically in order to be able to "raid improperly".

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    You're assuming people will do that despite knowing that they won't be able to in the real raid, and despite playing the easy mode for the sole purpose of learning those mechanics in the first place.

    No, i assume that most people would not play easy mode raids "for the sole purpose of learning". In fact, if the easy mode was designed in such a way that learning was the only thing players could obtain from it, it would end up way deader than normal mode is.

    I already said the easy mode would give you no rewards, not even exp.. absolutely nothing would be rewarded upon success.

    Then it would end a dead mode within a week. And i am being generous here.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    They won't have the wrong experience, they'll have exactly the same experience only with higher stakes for mistakes.

    So a completely different experience. When the stakes are different, the experience is different, the way you deal with the mechanics is different and even the mentality towards the content is different. In the Sabetha example, if it doesn't kill you but does 70% of your health as damage, there would be zero reason to move and lose your dps while moving. Since the flamethrower only does the damage once, you can face tank it (on any build), expect to be healed (or get downed and get revived) and just dps.

    But those who want to raid properly will be playing to learn the mechanics, fully aware that the real thing is going to mess them up hard if they screw them up.

    Those who want to raid properly will join a training discord or a training guild and practice with them. Also, this type of easy mode is a recipe for disaster as having players with fundamentally different expectations doing the same content can have very bad results. In the Sabetha example again, in this "easy mode" where the flamethrower isn't an instant kill anymore the meta mechanic would be to stand still, out heal it, and not use potential dps due to moving around. The player that wants to "train as if it's the real thing" will rotate around, going away of the stack. Now in this example, he'll still be in buff range (unless messing up completely) but you can see how having different expectations can create all kinds of problems.

    How do you fit in this easy mode version both a player that is there for the rewards/efficiency AND a player that wants to train for the real thing? "Hey guys, I will do the mechanics as if they are real, you can ignore them since they aren't punishing" isn't going to work very well.

    You dont, you simply introduce harder content than the easy mdoe elsewhere for said player to get the gist of it (either fractal cms or strike cms could be harder than the easy mode raid).

    Its far more realistic and easy imo to simply build an easy mode for those that want juet that, an easy mode amd a hard mode for those that want just that, a hard mode.

    At first someone might think that you should do the nm to get the idea of the hm encounter but thats not necessarily the case in either ff14 or wow,the 2 biggest mmos for raiding rn. Its all about giving ppl the content the want whethet thats easy content or hard content.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Henry.5713 said:

    Do we actually need to be told about these "reasons"? Niche content attracts a niche crowd. Introducing multiple difficulty tiers might slightly increase the size of said crowd but raids would continue to be niche content no matter what.
    You either decide to have niche content in your game for very specific crowds or you do not. Trying to make all content appeal to most players is never going to work. Some people simply do not enjoy PvP. No amount of carebearing will ever change that. Many players are never going to enjoy competitive PvE. And again, no amount of babysteps to introduce them to raiding will change that fact.

    The great majority of the players who wanted try raids already did do so. They went through long phases of active raiding and they eventually quit due to a lack of new content. The number of people who have been actively raiding since day is getting closer to zero by the day. Everyone is moving on or at least going on an hiatus for a while.

    Feels like we have a said this a thousand times already... The only way to maintain a sizeable raid community is a good rate of new raid content. No amount of new incoming players who might or might not even like raids are going to make up for those who already quit.

    Sums most of it imo. Be it time constrained or etc, it's impossible to get 100% audience participation for it in GW2. It's possible only if the game mainly focus on it, whereby it will only attract players specifically for raids.

    Players are given free will, nothing is forced. As much as I want PvP skins, I just dislike PvP. Not going to find excuses for myself eg. Toxicity, just dislike the whole flipping capture points idea which all PvP is based on. I'm fine with WvW.

    Strike Mission is just a stepping stone to raids; a platform. It won't force players into raids if they're not interested. I do believe there are players trying out raids after doing strike, but couldn't find a "proper" group to fit in (same problem as before, and those who are interested will find a way). Players who are not interested in raids, will still not raid even though they're doing Strikes regularly. Nor keep in touch with anyone they met in Strike to organize something.

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    There is also a 4th reason - Only a small audience asked for them (which is another reason why they shouldn't have come to fruition). With regards to the toxicity, long before the raids even came out hoards of players already foretold what was going to happen. Even those who never said a peep about them knew what was going to happen.. so again, why did they ever even bother coming to fruition.

    Raids implementation is one of the biggest reasons why we have such a "balance" problem.

    Enough for it to be considered and implemented and attract a big crowd for HoT. Why the number didn't maintained till today is debateable. Not sure what "balance" is referring and related to raids (condi was nerfed during HoT, Might stats was lower compared to when the game was launched etc(?) Wasn't things more powerful back then?

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    But those who want to raid properly will be playing to learn the mechanics, fully aware that the real thing is going to mess them up hard if they screw them up.

    Those who want to raid properly will join a training discord or a training guild and practice with them.

    If that were true raids would be significantly more popular than they currently are.
    Clearly this process doesnt work for most people.

    It doesn't work for most people, because, surprise surprise, most people do not actually want to "raid properly". They are asking for easy raids specifically in order to be able to "raid improperly".

    If that were true then Anet would/should just cater raids to the majority instead and stop wasting precious time and resources making content exclusively for a very small and shrinking minority of players.

    If they want more people getting into raiding then they need to implement better ways of teaching people how to do them.
    Strikes were a fine idea in theory but to call them easy raids would be inaccurate, they do not teach you the same mechanics or prepare you for raiding what so ever.

    Now if there were a harder variant of Strike missions that had exactly the same bosses and mechancis but introduced one shot mechanics for failing certain tasks... that would be a very different thing entirely.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Raids implementation is one of the biggest reasons why we have such a "balance" problem.

    Nah. Raids didn't cause balance problems. They may have made those problems more visible, but the main cause is the core game design - so, something that has been in GW2 since the very beginning.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    If that were true then Anet would/should just cater raids to the majority instead and stop wasting precious time and resources making content exclusively for a very small and shrinking minority of players.

    Possibly. Or go for multi-tiered design model, making the creation of content for hardcore players a byproduct of making a content for the mainstream players (and thus far easier to justify resourcewise).
    One thing that is not going to work is trying to create a content for a small minority of players, knowing putting resources in it is not justifiable, but hoping that somehow, against all indications up to this point, you will be able to push more players in that content so you can no longer feel all that efford you have done so far was wasted.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.