Condi herald is oppressive; Powerbombardment Renegade is broken

[Buran.3796]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

Just saying.....that playing a class like revenant or guardian,engineer or thief...you never get to experience what hard nerf really looks like. Receiving a hard nerf means that the nerfed skill/utility would be better off being deleted.....a 5-10% slap on the wrist is merely a fix...let alone being considered a hard nerf...that's laughable

...And this definitely proves withou any shadow of doubt that you're largely ignorant about the timeline of the Revenant class, because there's hardly in the game nerfs as strong as faced by its hammer, which went from utterly dominant in the WvW battlefield to absolutely useless in every game mode (not only due damage cuts and larger cooldowns but also changes in its mechanics deeper than the lose of one evade in Mirages or the second pet in Beastmasters). It's so bad that didn't touch that weapon in the last 18+ months. Or I could talk for ours about how Shiro's skills are a cluncky shadow of what they were. Staff is also really mediocre now, so barely has any use outside power Revs in PvP.

Also I'm not impressed with French Wurms and their condi Rev stacking winning the last Monthly AT. How many months in a row they were demolished by 55 Dragons (which only run power Herald)? So, you have a class with low access to cleanses with a condi build which for a few months relied in resistance (shaved since July), and you still have problems against it, in an open environment (WvW) which wasn't ever properly balanced... Sorry but I would argue that stealth is the most broken skill in the game and Rev is one of the few classes which lacks acces to it, so I would never think that a condi Rev is OP in a world in which Thieves, Mirages and Rangers do exist.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Oooh, is power shortbow Rene like, a legit thing now? I haven't played much at all for the past 4 months and forgot that shortbow 3 got its functionality modified. The damage looks fun. May have to reinstall again to test it out. Hard to believe it's actually a top oppressive roaming build though.

Also, how does one get such insane viewing distance like in that Rene montage? Looks like a different game!

[lodjur.1284]

Skimmed through both, didn't find anything more outnumbered than 2 to 1.... Maybe there is something, but not gonna look thro 45 min of video to find it

If you wanted to show off something seeming broken you couldn't have done a worse job.

Condi herald got 1 broken skill (True Nature) and herald itself does carry bad plays quite hard with all the invulns, but for smallscale it's far from the most problematic build.

True nature Demon should definitively get nerfed quite hard, as the 1/4 sec casttime+massive 600 radius+umevadeable makes it very kitten to fight. Rest of condi rev is honestly fine, dragon (and shield/staff) carries bad plays a bit hard, but not more than other classes with strong invulns/similar.

Power renegade looked interesting if only cause it's kinda rare. It's kind of an annoying build because shiro is an annoying stance and it's a range build, but overall there are builds that do the same thing but better. As can be seen you almost lose to thieves which you imo massively outplay for example. Kinda highlighting how it's viable but not exactly broken.

[otto.5684]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Oooh, is power shortbow Rene like, a legit thing now? I haven't played much at all for the past 4 months and forgot that shortbow 3 got its functionality modified. The damage looks fun. May have to reinstall again to test it out. Hard to believe it's actually a top oppressive roaming build though.

Also, how does one get such insane viewing distance like in that Rene montage? Looks like a different game!

It is pretty good. It is extremely strong in PvE too.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:I had a draft I was working on for why Condi Herald is largely fine (Torment Runes are potentially OP though and make up a huge amount of condi Herald's overall sustain) and then I decided to watch the video you posted for context.

Literally the first encounter is 1 condi herald + a Tower Lord + guards fighting 3 people (including a Firebrand) that have no idea what they're doing, aren't cleansing, aren't kiting effectively and largely just facetanking all of the guard damage + the torment. This would have been the same result with almost any other AoE class since the 3 people were utterly bad.

Second encounter is a DH + Condi Herald vs. 1 FB Healer + 1 core Hammer Rev +1 Jalis/Glint Power Rev. The 3 fighting the DH and cHerald should have gone after the DH first, but the 3 didn't focus a target and thus wasted a lot of their damage potential. Also it's super obvious if you watch that both Power Revs are fairly bad overall and are being carried by their mediocre FB healer. And ofc once the FB healer is dead then so are the revs, since power rev is notoriously extremely weak to condi classes. The condi herald isn't even doing a ton of damage during the majority of the encounter, but just putting out consistent pressure while they chip away at the FB. Not sure what this clip is supposed to show, besides extremely bad play (honestly on all sides). And look at the ranks, all bronze or silver WvWers, likely with unoptimized builds for fighting condi.

Honestly after those two clips there's no need to watch the whole 30+ minutes and I stopped there (not worth the time). If those are the two clips that are supposed to "hook you" into watching the rest and "prove" how OP Condi Herald is, then they do an extremely poor job of making me want to watch more and they don't show anything other than less skilled players getting obliterated by condi with unoptimized builds, per usual, alongside mediocre gameplay.

And this is a main point I want to make, that WvW offers insane amounts of customization to deal with conditions and condition builds (especially compared to pvp). The VAST majority of players don't utilize it AT ALL and then complain when they lose to a condi build. And most WvW players are not great players, full stop, period. I used to 1v4 with Roaming Hammer Herald. Does this make Hammer Herald "oppressive" in roaming? Absolutely not. As for condi Herald, against any build that can cleanse consistently and can kite, the matchup is already not in the condi herald's favor and will go on for ages or until one of the players makes a major mistake. Thief, Mesmer, Ranger, Warrior, Elementalist, and Necro (and ofc the mirror matchup for Rev) all have dueling/roaming builds that can either stalemate condi Herald or outright beat it and are just as survivable (in some cases with way more in combat utility and escapability like Stealth/ground targeted teleports, etc. than Condi Herald). I've personally seen all of the above classes either stalemate me or beat me, with skillful play on both sides. Since 7 of the 9 classes have viable ways of dealing with Condi Herald, why is this a problem?? The problem really just comes down to lack of optimization and player skill, in the vast majority of cases.

Well said as always friend, Id like to add to this. The main and if not only major condition herald gets when going condi is indeed torment; Sure some burning is in there and maybe some chill but honestly most classes have skills that obliterate condition damage. (Shake it off on warrior is a good example) And there are ranger builds that literally make all survival/command skills either apply barrier/regeneration or simply just outright removes conditions. Heck druids get access to a 12 condition cleanse just for entering into CA, Necromancers have a build that consumes conditions while in shroud and gives them life-force? Every class has a build for it.

Point is if you think Condi-herald of any caliber is OP then what do you think about guardians? Because guardian can do a lot more with less effort than any type of revenant; The only interaction on rev that might be a bit busted is shortbow on a power build because of its scaling and minor condi-coverage. But honestly if you are playing with mobile skills and can move and dodge it is a non-factor. If you gut condi herald then you have to buff power rev; So that way revenants can have some form of playstyle thats lucrative.

which wont happen, so what you're asking for is for the class to essentially be deleted. I agree fully, for once with Lucian ... this is a Learn to play issue and not an issue with the class itself. (I've never once had an issue fighting a rev of any kind. Try playing one and see for yourselves perhaps?)

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@otto.5684 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Oooh, is power shortbow Rene like, a legit thing now? I haven't played much at all for the past 4 months and forgot that shortbow 3 got its functionality modified. The damage looks fun. May have to reinstall again to test it out. Hard to believe it's actually a top oppressive roaming build though.

Also, how does one get such insane viewing distance like in that Rene montage? Looks like a different game!

It is pretty good. It is extremely strong in PvE too.

Yeah I actually reinstalled after posting that and have been running power shortbow Rene since. Most fun I've had on a build in a while. Them fixing a lot of Shortbow 2's issues too just last patch has made it even better.

[Aeolus.3615]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@otto.5684 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Oooh, is power shortbow Rene like, a legit thing now? I haven't played much at all for the past 4 months and forgot that shortbow 3 got its functionality modified. The damage looks fun. May have to reinstall again to test it out. Hard to believe it's actually a top oppressive roaming build though.

Also, how does one get such insane viewing distance like in that Rene montage? Looks like a different game!

It is pretty good. It is extremely strong in PvE too.

Yeah I actually reinstalled after posting that and have been running power shortbow Rene since. Most fun I've had on a build in a while. Them fixing a lot of Shortbow 2's issues too just last patch has made it even better.

Why not run power and condi at same time, u get both worlds in one build?Grieving stats: Power(Main), Precision, Ferocity, Condi(Main)

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@otto.5684 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Oooh, is power shortbow Rene like, a legit thing now? I haven't played much at all for the past 4 months and forgot that shortbow 3 got its functionality modified. The damage looks fun. May have to reinstall again to test it out. Hard to believe it's actually a top oppressive roaming build though.

Also, how does one get such insane viewing distance like in that Rene montage? Looks like a different game!

It is pretty good. It is extremely strong in PvE too.

Yeah I actually reinstalled after posting that and have been running power shortbow Rene since. Most fun I've had on a build in a while. Them fixing a lot of Shortbow 2's issues too just last patch has made it even better.

Why not run power and condi at same time, u get both worlds in one build?Grieving stats: Power(Main), Precision, Ferocity, Condi(Main)

Honestly it is because I just swapped my swords for a shortbow on my power build and called it good. It has been working wonderfully for me so I haven't even bothered trying Grieiving lol.

[otto.5684]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@otto.5684 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Oooh, is power shortbow Rene like, a legit thing now? I haven't played much at all for the past 4 months and forgot that shortbow 3 got its functionality modified. The damage looks fun. May have to reinstall again to test it out. Hard to believe it's actually a top oppressive roaming build though.

Also, how does one get such insane viewing distance like in that Rene montage? Looks like a different game!

It is pretty good. It is extremely strong in PvE too.

Yeah I actually reinstalled after posting that and have been running power shortbow Rene since. Most fun I've had on a build in a while. Them fixing a lot of Shortbow 2's issues too just last patch has made it even better.

Why not run power and condi at same time, u get both worlds in one build?Grieving stats: Power(Main), Precision, Ferocity, Condi(Main)

Honestly it is because I just swapped my swords for a shortbow on my power build and called it good. It has been working wonderfully for me so I haven't even bothered trying Grieiving lol.

I personally liked it with berserker more. You can kill most stuff very quick.

[ArielRebel.3426]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@otto.5684 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Oooh, is power shortbow Rene like, a legit thing now? I haven't played much at all for the past 4 months and forgot that shortbow 3 got its functionality modified. The damage looks fun. May have to reinstall again to test it out. Hard to believe it's actually a top oppressive roaming build though.

Also, how does one get such insane viewing distance like in that Rene montage? Looks like a different game!

It is pretty good. It is extremely strong in PvE too.

Yeah I actually reinstalled after posting that and have been running power shortbow Rene since. Most fun I've had on a build in a while. Them fixing a lot of Shortbow 2's issues too just last patch has made it even better.

Why not run power and condi at same time, u get both worlds in one build?Grieving stats: Power(Main), Precision, Ferocity, Condi(Main)

That's actually my build and it's so much fun. Mace/Axe + SB with Invocation, Retribution and Renegade trait lines and I use Renegade and Dwarf stances to have great sustain and damage mitigation (to help with the glass-cannon aspect of the build) though you could replace Renegade with Assassin's if you feel you can't stick enough to your target or want extra burst.

[otto.5684]

@ArielRebel.3426 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@otto.5684 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Oooh, is power shortbow Rene like, a legit thing now? I haven't played much at all for the past 4 months and forgot that shortbow 3 got its functionality modified. The damage looks fun. May have to reinstall again to test it out. Hard to believe it's actually a top oppressive roaming build though.

Also, how does one get such insane viewing distance like in that Rene montage? Looks like a different game!

It is pretty good. It is extremely strong in PvE too.

Yeah I actually reinstalled after posting that and have been running power shortbow Rene since. Most fun I've had on a build in a while. Them fixing a lot of Shortbow 2's issues too just last patch has made it even better.

Why not run power and condi at same time, u get both worlds in one build?Grieving stats: Power(Main), Precision, Ferocity, Condi(Main)

That's actually my build and it's so much fun. Mace/Axe + SB with Invocation, Retribution and Renegade trait lines and I use Renegade and Dwarf stances to have great sustain and damage mitigation (to help with the glass-cannon aspect of the build) though you could replace Renegade with Assassin's if you feel you can't stick enough to your target or want extra burst.

Advice, use devastation instead of retribution. You will have way better damage and healing due to battle scars. Renegade and SB have significant synergy with battle scar. Both applying and consuming battle scars has no ICD. Icerazor will give 20 stacks of battle scars and SB skill 2 has 3 attacks and skill 3 has 7 attacks. And you will get 300 heal per scar which doubles if you are below half HP. It is an insane amount of healing. If you have really low hp, 7 shot can heal you for 4.2k hp.

[ArielRebel.3426]

@otto.5684 said:

@ArielRebel.3426 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@otto.5684 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Oooh, is power shortbow Rene like, a legit thing now? I haven't played much at all for the past 4 months and forgot that shortbow 3 got its functionality modified. The damage looks fun. May have to reinstall again to test it out. Hard to believe it's actually a top oppressive roaming build though.

Also, how does one get such insane viewing distance like in that Rene montage? Looks like a different game!

It is pretty good. It is extremely strong in PvE too.

Yeah I actually reinstalled after posting that and have been running power shortbow Rene since. Most fun I've had on a build in a while. Them fixing a lot of Shortbow 2's issues too just last patch has made it even better.

Why not run power and condi at same time, u get both worlds in one build?Grieving stats: Power(Main), Precision, Ferocity, Condi(Main)

That's actually my build and it's so much fun. Mace/Axe + SB with Invocation, Retribution and Renegade trait lines and I use Renegade and Dwarf stances to have great sustain and damage mitigation (to help with the glass-cannon aspect of the build) though you could replace Renegade with Assassin's if you feel you can't stick enough to your target or want extra burst.

Advice, use devastation instead of retribution. You will have way better damage and healing due to battle scars. Renegade and SB have significant synergy with battle scar. Both applying and consuming battle scars has no ICD. Icerazor will give 20 stacks of battle scars and SB skill 2 has 3 attacks and skill 3 has 7 attacks. And you will get 300 heal per scar which doubles if you are below half HP. It is an insane amount of healing. If you have really low hp, 7 shot can heal you for 4.2k hp.

thanks for the advice but, in PVP and WvW, that healing is just so low, I mean 58hp * 2 (when under 50% max hp) is still just 116 hp per attack.

On the other hand retribution further reinforces vigor : 25% increase endurance regen, gain vigor when evading an attack and 15% damage reduction (while you have vigor) which ties well with Brutal Momentum to keep your endurance filled to be able to dodge but also keep your bar full as much as possible to keep that 33% crit chance increase.

It also gives your healing abilities a dome that not only blocks projectiles and weaken enemies inside (so even more damage reduction) but also creates a dark field so you can proc life steal reliably well it with and SB. SB's 5 is also a good disable (but so is the taunt on dwarf stance, daze on Darkrazor's daring and the pull on the mace's 5th skill) which applies weakness with Dwarven Battle Training which increases your damage by 10% against the weaken target.

Finally Steadfast Rejuvenation is (in PvP and WvW) 40hp per upkeep point so if, say, you have Vengeful Hammers going, that's 40x6 = 240hp per sec on top of the heals from the circling hammers themselves or, with SoulCleave's Summit, that's 40x8 = 320hp per sec on top of SCS's life steal.

While I can see the attraction of having an improved Icerazor with battlescars, the fact that it's the only skill applying vulnerability, I find that it doesn't synergize well when using mace/axe + shortbow with the dwarf as a secondary stance. That's just my opinion though and I really appreciate your insight!

[otto.5684]

@ArielRebel.3426 I should have clarified I was talking about PvE. Ya.. the healing from battle scars in PvP is minuscule.

[Virdo.1540]

idk how often i said this, but condi herald is extremely easy to counter. It should get even buffed in some specific directions.

But if people still try to facetank an tanky condi herald in hope to win ,keep loosing and start complaining in the forums together with not knowing any little piece of their own build & gear ...... ah well