Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals - Page 14 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid Elitism Happening In Fractals

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  • squallaus.8321squallaus.8321 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2018

    @Milumeo Rinku.7583 said:

    The reason this is particularly annoying for me is that I don't even get a chance when people use DPS meters and stuff, yet time and time again the pure DPS builds are constantly being downed or defeated; what use is your DPS build when you can't survive an AoE with a support player? I know I could make a party myself like many suggest, but as i'm starting to break into t4's my personal frac level isn't high enough to initiate some of the dailies. I end up just completing daily t3's because I cannot cross this elitist (whether raid or general) barriers in t4's, which is sad because I actually really enjoy them.

    No you're wrong. Those that go down constantly don't know how to play their characters yet. Having actual support character next to them will keep them topped up so they can keep attacking without needing to back off. I don't think you understand what it means to go DPS nor do you understand what true support can do. This happens because you aren't willing to spec all out into a role yet.

  • squallaus.8321squallaus.8321 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2018

    @Milumeo Rinku.7583 said:

    Yeah I understand that completely. It's just hard to find non meta groups right now within the time frame I get to complete my dailies, and right now I don't have much time to work through the t4 fractals to be able to raise my personal frac level. It's funny, just the other day, I was in a daily t3 group, we were doing fine, finished 1 frac then they asked me to switch druid, which I was fine with but I said I don't know the meta build to pre-warn, and one just said 'google does' so I just said I'm not really about that so If you guys are set on using a meta druid then I'll leave, and they just said ok bye. It's just disheartening the slow lack of faith in anything but meta slowly creeping down fracts it seems. I am hoping to be able to start working through my fracs soon to start my own groups and maybe find a decent guild to frac with. Appreciate your post, I half expected some angry elitist responses, but yours was refreshing to read, thank you!

    Its not so much as using the meta build you just sound like you don't know how to play druid and what your druid is capable of in terms of healing and other party support. I've never played druid before but I bet I know druid capabilities better than you do. In fact you don't want to just copy and paste meta builds to your character. Its only a starting point. You still have to adjust it afterwards.
    My opinion is don't bother with T3 just buy the AR and jump into T4s. Then you will see what you actually need in terms of DPS if you play DPS, or in terms of healing amount if you play druid. Arcdps will help you adjust your build and help you learn how to attack, its very useful.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Milumeo Rinku.7583 said:

    The reason this is particularly annoying for me is that I don't even get a chance when people use DPS meters and stuff, yet time and time again the pure DPS builds are constantly being downed or defeated

    Didn't they already gave you a chance when they can see your dps?
    I just don't understand the hate towards meta builds. It's not some special or weird builds. Good players usually tend to use them or builds pretty close to them without copying them just because they are pretty straight forward. Stack as much damage/support as possible.

    Which t3 frac boss took you 2h to complete? On a selfish build like yours you should be able to solo that boss in that time. I suggest looking up the fractal guides on dT site. While i disagree with some of their builds/compositions they have good information there for new players.

    The problem with 1 low dps player in a group is that it can make stuff really complicated and basically a 4man clear since not dying isn't bad but it's also not killing the boss faster. A few examples are the Ice elemental in snowblind. Normally you kill it during 1 spellbreaker bubble but with low dps you can't and everything becomes a mess. Or Chaos endboss. With low dps you will run out of stability / projectile defence and everything becomes a mess again.
    You know in t3 you can kill that boss in like 20sec. Normal t3 pugs need multiple minutes just for that boss. And probably even longer with off meta builds. Kiting that boss around for minutes.

    And in t4 Dps can become an issue especially 100/99cms if phases become too long.

    Players also expect cc, might, spirits and heal from druid. If you say you run celestiel you probably don't have boon duration. While it is possible to stack might in fracs without it, it is not something a beginner does normally.
    A friend of mine even ran into a pug druid who took the healing trait while being the only reliable might source. Or my favourite: The double staff druid because he "doesn't like" warhorn/axe whatever. Who needs vuln or fury anyways.

    And you probably don't even know whats a smooth fractal run when you don't run meta. You can do t4 dailies in like 15min with the right fractals. All of them not just 1.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    A few examples are the Ice elemental in snowblind. Normally you kill it during 1 spellbreaker bubble but with low dps you can't and everything becomes a mess. Or Chaos endboss. With low dps you will run out of stability / projectile defence and everything becomes a mess again.

    But here also lays a problem. People don't seem to know that you can go back to the fire and enlighten it again. ^^ They start their "meta" groups in T4 which obviously won't work as good as the actual kp cm meta groups and then miserably dying at easy encounters like ice elemental instead of playing the mechanics as intended because the other day "they have seen" things working.
    Personally, I expect from a good and also a T4 player - we don't speak about cms here - to "know his stuff" and that doesn't mean he can only execute his dps rotation blindly on a golem but adapt to the situation and if things go downwards he'll be able to react. I've seen players gging instantly if things don't go their preferable ways and luckily in a lot of situations they got a kick vote on themselves which I absolutely supported then.
    Yesterday I've been in a Samarog raid with my alt and we had 4 Deadeyes all of them decorated with the highest PvE titles and peppered with leggy armors - it was a run with requirements. We wiped and one of the first comment from one of them was: "Can the DH please change to guard for more CC". I laughed and commented that it's cool to have 4 times basi venom in one single squad. That was almost too much for them... I mean, if you want to dps race alone or with your friends then do that but don't expect others to do everything else for a.k.a. carry you. It barely works in pugs.

    A friend of mine even ran into a pug druid who took the healing trait while being the only reliable might source. Or my favourite: The double staff druid because he "doesn't like" warhorn/axe whatever. Who needs vuln or fury anyways.

    If your group doesn't have vulnerability at all even the warhorn alone won't be enough - set up storm if u really must. Usually it's the same stuff with fury. Don't get me wrong, as a main druid I cry if I see double staff druids especially with only one pet not being swapped but on the other hand if your group is lacking boons so hard it's better to look for another team. I've seen those groups and when I was with them I killed Molten Furnace or Solid Ocean with them and thanked for the run.

    And you probably don't even know whats a smooth fractal run when you don't run meta. You can do t4 dailies in like 15min with the right fractals. All of them not just 1.

    You barely find those groups out of cms nowadays and that's what's we're discussing here primarily - T4s. I agree, in cms things have to be different otherwise I just don't even start them.

  • RAZOR.7246RAZOR.7246 Member ✭✭

    The fact remains, Anet has explicitly stated that FOTM is intended to be a stepping stone to Raids in terms of mechanics, difficulty and builds. If you can't even handle stripping boons for the NPNG instability, how can you strip in Raids where some of the bosses REQUIRE you to boonstrip if you want to even damage them? In Raids there are enrage timers which ensure that you need to have good DPS. The point is, this is intended to be high level content and you'll find that static groups with meta comps can complete the same runs in half the time or less than pug groups (most can't even clear raids). This brings me to my next point.

    My static can complete CMs, T4s and Recs in 45mins-1hour daily depending on the dailies and we don't even consider ourselves as top tier. Most T4 pugs runs take the same amount of time or longer. Now my question is, would you rather spend 45mins-1hour doing 3 fractals or would you rather spend the same amount of time doing more things and getting more loot? If you want to take your time and do a longer run fair play to you and that's fine, but don't expect others to want to do the same, especially if the group specifically asks for certain requirements.

    There's an expected level of understanding when specific things are asked for in LFG. If I want a druid for my party, I expect the druid to provide not just healing for the group, but the necessary buffs to maximise group DPS as well because that's what a Druid is SUPPOSED to do. That's the way this game works, there are specific builds for each class which are outright better than others. There's no one size fits all if that's the right expression for it.

    On the other side of the coin, I get it, it's just a T4 run. These days the really "elite" groups don't even run healers or run minimal healing so if you're in a party asking for a druid and then acting elitist, IMHO you're just being a tryhard. I've seen for myself how some of those who act elitist can't even operate in a truly "elite" speedrun. That said, I've seen players who just ignore the requirements that have been explicitly stated and then get upset when they're kicked. There's a simple solution to this people. Read the LFG before you click join and if you don't have the required build to join a group don't join it, go start your own group where you can do the run at a level you're more comfortable with. If you want to join the better groups, there are guilds out there that are willing to train you if you're not at the required ability level and get your gear and rotations sorted out. These days Anet has made Ascended gear much easier for the average player to attain. This shouldn't even be an issue.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    A few examples are the Ice elemental in snowblind. Normally you kill it during 1 spellbreaker bubble but with low dps you can't and everything becomes a mess. Or Chaos endboss. With low dps you will run out of stability / projectile defence and everything becomes a mess again.

    But here also lays a problem. People don't seem to know that you can go back to the fire and enlighten it again. ^^ They start their "meta" groups in T4 which obviously won't work as good as the actual kp cm meta groups and then miserably dying at easy encounters like ice elemental instead of playing the mechanics as intended because the other day "they have seen" things working.

    Yes you can also kill gorseval with 4 updrafts. It's just not something that makes it easier. Especially if you send one player ahead to the next checkpoint and don't play with a healer. The player will get ported back.

    Yesterday I've been in a Samarog raid with my alt and we had 4 Deadeyes all of them decorated with the highest PvE titles and peppered with leggy armors - it was a run with requirements. We wiped and one of the first comment from one of them was: "Can the DH please change to guard for more CC". I laughed and commented that it's cool to have 4 times basi venom in one single squad. That was almost too much for them... I mean, if you want to dps race alone or with your friends then do that but don't expect others to do everything else for a.k.a. carry you. It barely works in pugs.

    I've seen failed sama cc's while on core warr with double mace, bulls charge and rampage. Even using mace f1 twice wasn't enough.

    A friend of mine even ran into a pug druid who took the healing trait while being the only reliable might source. Or my favourite: The double staff druid because he "doesn't like" warhorn/axe whatever. Who needs vuln or fury anyways.

    If your group doesn't have vulnerability at all even the warhorn alone won't be enough - set up storm if u really must. Usually it's the same stuff with fury. Don't get me wrong, as a main druid I cry if I see double staff druids especially with only one pet not being swapped but on the other hand if your group is lacking boons so hard it's better to look for another team. I've seen those groups and when I was with them I killed Molten Furnace or Solid Ocean with them and thanked for the run.

    We played with power druid and double weaver during last balance patch. Only constant vuln source are chrono aa + some warr stacks. They have slow ramp up so the fast vuln on axe/warhorn help a lot. Storm glyph isn't up in every phase. But this is only a problem when playing without DHs, Holos etc.

    T4's were way more elitist back in the days. I remember kicks happening after/during swamp when the guard didn't use wall or people died. Nowadays most guards probably don't even know that they have reflects.
    Or the requirement for warr to solo mai trin cannon + stack part while the rest stealthes. Things were so simple without a healer. Some bosses just oneshotted even warrs so nobody had to think about heal or defensive stats.
    Underground facility was also almost impossible without an engi/thief.

    But it really helps a lot to just check some fractal guides if you are not playing with a speed run group. Some strategies are really simple and make the tedious fractals actually fun.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2018

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    But it really helps a lot to just check some fractal guides if you are not playing with a speed run group. Some strategies are really simple and make the tedious fractals actually fun.

    Ye, tell that to the people that never come to forums/reddit/yt etc. Those ppl play how they want and don't care about anything.

  • Milumeo Rinku.7583Milumeo Rinku.7583 Member
    edited July 19, 2018

    @squallaus.8321 said:
    No you're wrong. Those that go down constantly don't know how to play their characters yet. Having actual support character next to them will keep them topped up so they can keep attacking without needing to back off. I don't think you understand what it means to go DPS nor do you understand what true support can do. This happens because you aren't willing to spec all out into a role yet.

    This is what I meant, they don't know how to fully utilize their builds to their full potential, or lack the ability to play core mechanics making ANY build redundant at higher level play. I understand a true support player could easily keep up a DPS player when they're decent enough to know their class mechanics, boss mechanics and timings, i didn't mean to come across like I was undermining support roles at all.

    I do usually fully spec into specific roles, hence choosing logical trait builds, but like I say it's never going to be as good as meta or a more improved build.

    Its not so much as using the meta build you just sound like you don't know how to play druid and what your druid is capable of in terms of healing and other party support. I've never played druid before but I bet I know druid capabilities better than you do. In fact you don't want to just copy and paste meta builds to your character. Its only a starting point. You still have to adjust it afterwards.

    I know how to play druid, I played it a lot during and throughout the time of HoT release, but I have no doubt you will know their capabilities more than me. Like I say, I've never played it meta I don't think, but I know the core mechanics and have an idea of what their capabilities of through forums, chats with people in-game ect. Saying that, I haven't touched it for a while (wanted to come back to it after crafting nevermore as a refreshing change) so right now I'm pretty clueless for sure. It's just my play style I guess; sure there are specific builds which really shine on certain classes which really bring out their true potential, but I personally love to to try out new things everyday to stop my play style becoming stale, so sticking to a particular trait which would be fitting for a meta build for example, I'd run for maybe 3 days, then try something new as it keeps it fresh for me. I love building my own builds with what sounds fun and logically decent to play but this isn't always great for optimal frac or instanced play. I understand that, all I'm wishing for is a higher frequency of relaxed groups, looking for a laid-back, chill and fun run.

    My opinion is don't bother with T3 just buy the AR and jump into T4s. Then you will see what you actually need in terms of DPS if you play DPS, or in terms of healing amount if you play druid. Arcdps will help you adjust your build and help you learn how to attack, its very useful.

    Yeah, I understand that even for my playstyle i'm gonna need to make certain changes. I play a variety of roles so i'll have to adjust as needed. Thanks for the tips :)

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Didn't they already gave you a chance when they can see your dps?
    I just don't understand the hate towards meta builds. It's not some special or weird builds. Good players usually tend to use them or builds pretty close to them without copying them just because they are pretty straight forward. Stack as much damage/support as possible.

    If i'm truly honest, I haven't YET been kicked based on DPS info. There was just 1 particular situation where someone asked me what build I was running and I explained how I like to play. I asked him if I was under performing, and he just said he looked at that last boss and said a little. So I'm not too sure about this yet. I think I exaggerated, I was having a nightmare at work that day and while the person in question was really amicable in it, with everything that happened that day it all added up and felt like people were on my case that day. So ignore the extent of that statement xD

    I don't hate the meta so to speak, it's more just adopting pre-made builds, idk it just feels mundane to me. Perhaps I do run something that isn't far off sometimes, I wouldn't know, but there's just something about slotting every skill in turn and creating a build that I really love in this game.

    Which t3 frac boss took you 2h to complete? On a selfish build like yours you should be able to solo that boss in that time. I suggest looking up the fractal guides on dT site. While i disagree with some of their builds/compositions they have good information there for new players.

    It was the desert frac with the high priestess sunspear and the different god phases. The fight didn't take 2 hours per se, it was more like some left, others joined, which kept happening. I could try it solo but the build I ran for that particular time didn't have enough CC for the CC phase pre-mob / transition thing for just me. That and I'm probably not that good xD.

    The problem with 1 low dps player in a group is that it can make stuff really complicated and basically a 4man clear since not dying isn't bad but it's also not killing the boss faster. A few examples are the Ice elemental in snowblind. Normally you kill it during 1 spellbreaker bubble but with low dps you can't and everything becomes a mess. Or Chaos endboss. With low dps you will run out of stability / projectile defence and everything becomes a mess again.

    I understand the problem with having a less than optimal build, but like I said to squallaus, I'm just wishful for a higher frequency of laid back frac players and teams. I don't mind so much about killing a boss in a quick time or having a quick run, a lot of the time I actually really enjoy the challenge of being in a less experienced party as there's the extra difficulty of trying to rez people, while dodging AoE's, and sustaining yourself through a long boss fight, I enjoy stuff like that!

    And you probably don't even know whats a smooth fractal run when you don't run meta. You can do t4 dailies in like 15min with the right fractals. All of them not just 1.

    Ehh, smooth is subjective I guess, your smooth isn't probably my smooth true haha, but I've had seamless and swift frac runs, in t3 at least as I havn't quite been able to break into t4's yet for the reasons discussed.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    But here also lays a problem. People don't seem to know that you can go back to the fire and enlighten it again. ^^ They start their "meta" groups in T4 which obviously won't work as good as the actual kp cm meta groups and then miserably dying at easy encounters like ice elemental instead of playing the mechanics as intended because the other day "they have seen" things working.

    This is exactly what I'm trying to say with my post. I apologize to the others if it felt like I was slating DPS, roles in general or meta, I didn't intend to, I just mean that frequently I'm in groups which use supposedly meta builds but do not adhere to the mechanics of the fractal and blindly follow their meta rotations without any thought for dodging ect. If we have the DPS which should be noticable within the first couple seconds of the ice elemental, sure go for a quick DPS burst kill, but if not, adapt and use what the frac provides and indeed intends for you to use

    @RAZOR.7246 said:
    If you want to take your time and do a longer run fair play to you and that's fine, but don't expect others to want to do the same, especially if the group specifically asks for certain requirements.

    Not sure if this was a general comment for directed at me, but I generally do not mind longer runs. I wouldn't ever join a party with requirements though, I do respect those who wish for quick and effective runs, and I understand when specifically asking for chrono - druid etc that is going to entail an optimal build, gear and knowledge of how to play as such, and I wouldn't join because that's outright disrespectful.

  • Game of Bones.8975Game of Bones.8975 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This just points to one of the main reasons why I don't raid and rarely join fractals.

    I look back at the GW1 days where you would get kicked or not allowed to join a group if you didn't play the "right" build.

    "That's what" -- She

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have to say i like super tryhard runs but I also enjoy normal runs. But today i joined T4 run that did deepstone for 35 minutes. Then i joined meta group and did remaining 2 dailies and recomended in roughly same time.

    I think fractal players can be separated into 4 types
    A) they dont play meta and dont know fractal mechanics
    B) they play meta because they cannot do it without it (dont know mechanics). Usualy have only Basic knowlage of class
    C) they know fractal mechanics but play nonmeta build
    D) they know fractals and play meta because it is even faster (and more fun)

    Both D and C are ok with me. Usualy B needs to be carried and I leave A players when I discover that.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    So Here is an interesting turn of events for this thread:

    I'm going to post in here and ask you, where is the elitism in fractals suddenly? Yesterday I tried to complete T4 fractals and for over 2 hours I could not find a group that could kill Subject 6. I've noticed a tremendous drop in the average level of experience that T4 players have recently. The best explanation I've heard so far is that CMs have essentially created a "T5 fractals" and that most experienced players mostly run T5s, pretty much leaving T4 as the new T3. But I dunno, I never noticed this being a problem until roughly about 2 weeks ago. It was as if suddenly out of the blue, many good fractal players vanished and many new fractal players joined the scene.

    Can't believe I'm saying this but, I may have to form my own elite fractal team. This is turning into a real hassle. Even posted LFGs for better players are taking too long nowadays and quite often players join with the requirements but are average at best anyway.

  • squallaus.8321squallaus.8321 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    So Here is an interesting turn of events for this thread:

    I'm going to post in here and ask you, where is the elitism in fractals suddenly? Yesterday I tried to complete T4 fractals and for over 2 hours I could not find a group that could kill Subject 6. I've noticed a tremendous drop in the average level of experience that T4 players have recently. The best explanation I've heard so far is that CMs have essentially created a "T5 fractals" and that most experienced players mostly run T5s, pretty much leaving T4 as the new T3. But I dunno, I never noticed this being a problem until roughly about 2 weeks ago. It was as if suddenly out of the blue, many good fractal players vanished and many new fractal players joined the scene.

    Can't believe I'm saying this but, I may have to form my own elite fractal team. This is turning into a real hassle. Even posted LFGs for better players are taking too long nowadays and quite often players join with the requirements but are average at best anyway.

    They probably run T4s with the CMs together. So you get less people just listing for T4s. This morning I did T4s running DPS. With a chrono and druid in party, the other 2 DPS in the group was doing 4k and i was doing 20k at subject 6. Barely managed to kill it in 1 burst.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    So Here is an interesting turn of events for this thread:

    I'm going to post in here and ask you, where is the elitism in fractals suddenly? Yesterday I tried to complete T4 fractals and for over 2 hours I could not find a group that could kill Subject 6. I've noticed a tremendous drop in the average level of experience that T4 players have recently. The best explanation I've heard so far is that CMs have essentially created a "T5 fractals" and that most experienced players mostly run T5s, pretty much leaving T4 as the new T3. But I dunno, I never noticed this being a problem until roughly about 2 weeks ago. It was as if suddenly out of the blue, many good fractal players vanished and many new fractal players joined the scene.

    Can't believe I'm saying this but, I may have to form my own elite fractal team. This is turning into a real hassle. Even posted LFGs for better players are taking too long nowadays and quite often players join with the requirements but are average at best anyway.

    Also I know many "veteran" people that do not play GW2 atm, since there is no new content. Will probably change if Anet decides to introduce new frac CMs / Raids.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Can't believe I'm saying this but, I may have to form my own elite fractal team. This is turning into a real hassle. Even posted LFGs for better players are taking too long nowadays and quite often players join with the requirements but are average at best anyway.

    It's either this or pug t4+cm. The start will be hard if you have no cosmic essences at all.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    From my experiance there is enourmous diference between cm+t4 (or 99vm+t4) and just t4 groups. And by enormous i mean truly enormous. Dps is usualy more then 2 times better and players but also groups do use some advanced tactics, swap skills, traits and even specializations (in case of warrior/spellbreaker) and usualy cc very fast.
    That was always the case but i guess some more experianced players are at vacation and some new players reached t4 since there is hollyday in schools.
    Also last fractal is rather boring for most experianced players since it is easy but there is not that many oppurtunities to skip something so some experianced players might have left since there wasnt been anything new challanging to play in a long time.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    From my experiance there is enourmous diference between cm+t4 (or 99vm+t4) and just t4 groups. And by enormous i mean truly enormous. Dps is usualy more then 2 times better and players but also groups do use some advanced tactics, swap skills, traits and even specializations (in case of warrior/spellbreaker) and usualy cc very fast.

    Meta comp plus lots of experience. Supports breaking the CC bars instantly, excellent boon coverage, strikers focusing entirely on dps. The shocking part isn't how much difference does that make, the shocking part is non-meta parties are trying to do the same without understanding even a tiny bit how and why it works.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    From my experiance there is enourmous diference between cm+t4 (or 99vm+t4) and just t4 groups. And by enormous i mean truly enormous. Dps is usualy more then 2 times better and players but also groups do use some advanced tactics, swap skills, traits and even specializations (in case of warrior/spellbreaker) and usualy cc very fast.

    Meta comp plus lots of experience. Supports breaking the CC bars instantly, excellent boon coverage, strikers focusing entirely on dps. The shocking part isn't how much difference does that make, the shocking part is non-meta parties are trying to do the same without understanding even a tiny bit how and why it works.

    On point.

    Unfortunately many players are used to copy pasting builds (just like in other MMOs) and using those in all the game modes. Few understand that this simply does not work in GW2 most of the time, definitely not when playing specialized builds which are designed to synergyze with the team composition.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    From my experiance there is enourmous diference between cm+t4 (or 99vm+t4) and just t4 groups. And by enormous i mean truly enormous. Dps is usualy more then 2 times better and players but also groups do use some advanced tactics, swap skills, traits and even specializations (in case of warrior/spellbreaker) and usualy cc very fast.

    Meta comp plus lots of experience. Supports breaking the CC bars instantly, excellent boon coverage, strikers focusing entirely on dps. The shocking part isn't how much difference does that make, the shocking part is non-meta parties are trying to do the same without understanding even a tiny bit how and why it works.

    On point.

    Unfortunately many players are used to copy pasting builds (just like in other MMOs) and using those in all the game modes. Few understand that this simply does not work in GW2 most of the time, definitely not when playing specialized builds which are designed to synergyze with the team composition.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    From my experiance there is enourmous diference between cm+t4 (or 99vm+t4) and just t4 groups. And by enormous i mean truly enormous. Dps is usualy more then 2 times better and players but also groups do use some advanced tactics, swap skills, traits and even specializations (in case of warrior/spellbreaker) and usualy cc very fast.

    Meta comp plus lots of experience. Supports breaking the CC bars instantly, excellent boon coverage, strikers focusing entirely on dps. The shocking part isn't how much difference does that make, the shocking part is non-meta parties are trying to do the same without understanding even a tiny bit how and why it works.

    On point.

    Unfortunately many players are used to copy pasting builds (just like in other MMOs) and using those in all the game modes. Few understand that this simply does not work in GW2 most of the time, definitely not when playing specialized builds which are designed to synergyze with the team composition.

    Fortunately even the cookie cutter standards without understanding are typically better than almost any "non-meta" fun build you see around.
    copy pasting builds >> self-invented longbow ranger, signet warrior and minion master reaper.

    Especially since it links to a different attitude. One of players valuing how good they do versus one of players valuing fun and how they personally feel without regard for their effectiveness. Why should a group care about players who don't care for the group? Why would players with no interest in being effective be likely to be good?

    I think there is a significant drop in high-end raiders playing the game currently. EU raid LFG has been exceptionally inactive lately. Sure, mondays and tuesdays have plenty of clears... Yet during the weekend even at prime times the amount of LFGs have dropped significantly. Also all of my raid groups are struggling with player retention. It's probably something to do with the hardcore PvE population being bored and feeling ignored. I doubt it will get better, more and more will quit or take breaks. And as they do, the elitism and skillgap will increase further rather than decrease.

    A new raid wing that's good would fix some of those issues tho.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

    I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

    And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

  • I am picky, I want to run a setup that I know it will work. I rather wait 5-10min to form a team, use only 1 set of food+enhanc, and have a lot less chance to wipe or taking too long for lack of CC/DPS/QKSS etc. Not sure what's the problem with that, I open a group and search for what I want, if players like yourself aren't up for it----> don't join. Simple as that.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

    Well, to be fair the fractals released before Deepstone was actually nice for hardcore players. Nightmare, Shattered Observatory and Twilight Oasis are all on the "challenging" side of the spectrum (when it comes to fractals), even without counting the CM the first two offered. Also Hall of Chains features pretty solid bosses, if only two of them.

    So I don't think ANet have been neglecting the their hardcore playerbase. At least not yet. If the next raid wing turns out to be a joke and if the new fractal releases are all similar to Deepstone, then I'll agree. Currently, I don't see a real reason to complain. I mean, sure, I'd like it better if DS was another cool fractal with good bosses that you actually had to pay attention to. But it's OK to release less hardcore content as well. There are players seeking that, too.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

    I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

    And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

    Fractals were more difficult when they were released with a maximum level of 50 than they are now. All content in GW2 must progressively become easier. Even without gear progression, through insane powercreep and nerfs to allow casuals to "progress" without getting better at the game. This isn't really a design point of view, but it's a clear common demand on both reddit and the forums. I think many aspects of fractals have drastically improved (See : new swamp) and the quality of the encounters is much better than it used to be...

    Fractals are nowadays mostly a daily geargrind full of players who do it for the rewards with little to no interest in the challenge, fun or the rest of the group. The exact same issue we have in WvW, PvP and many open world events. Players prefer to do istan because the rewards. SW because the rewards. Afk pipfarming in wvw and pvp because the rewards. Meanwhile negatively impacting the fun and enjoyment of the game.

    I enjoyed GW2 as a game where I could focus on being competitive and improving rather than grinding better gear. Yet... the longer the game goes on the more players demand repetitive grinds over fun content because "muh rewards" and "fashionwars2". Nowadays fractals are mostly a daily geargrind full of players who do it for that - the rewards - with little to no interest in the challenge or the fun. As a result, i've long given up on them.

    I'd rather redo raids for the 6th time or sit in pvp queue for 10 minutes than do non-cm fractals. I can live with repeating content. I can't live with constantly repeating content that is only getting easier, with players who only get worse as the content gets easier, only to see what was once organised and fun become a daily clownfiesta and frankly frustrating to do.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

    I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

    And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

    GW2 was always casual. There was always some harder content but the majority was casual. Why did they ever assume that raids would be a focus? It was pretty clear from the beginning that raids will be a side project.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

    Well, to be fair the fractals released before Deepstone was actually nice for hardcore players. Nightmare, Shattered Observatory and Twilight Oasis are all on the "challenging" side of the spectrum (when it comes to fractals), even without counting the CM the first two offered. Also Hall of Chains features pretty solid bosses, if only two of them.

    So I don't think ANet have been neglecting the their hardcore playerbase. At least not yet. If the next raid wing turns out to be a joke and if the new fractal releases are all similar to Deepstone, then I'll agree. Currently, I don't see a real reason to complain. I mean, sure, I'd like it better if DS was another cool fractal with good bosses that you actually had to pay attention to. But it's OK to release less hardcore content as well. There are players seeking that, too.

    Give it time, it'll sink in ;)

    I agree W5 was nice. I think the fractals are high level content but their difficulty across the board, even the newer ones, is lower than doing fractals when they were released in the vanilla game. Don't forget people ALWAYS struggle with new content before they figure it out.

    I'm not saying anet doesn't care at all. I'm sure they do. I just dont' think it'll be enough to keep most veterans entertained. In fact, sorting my guilds on "time since last login" tells me it isn't.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

    I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

    And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

    GW2 was always casual. There was always some harder content but the majority was casual. Why did they ever assume that raids would be a focus? It was pretty clear from the beginning that raids will be a side project.

    GOOD. This is exactly what I needed. This is why GW2 won't retain veterans and hardcore players.

    You know on release, WvW had a huge population. And PvP did too. And they also both had some issues ... Yet casuals already stated "hey we're slightly bigger and you should cater to us first!". It tooks YEARS to adress the issues with these modes, and many players quit.
    And then the casuals go "HEY LOOK, we're more see we're right GW2 is a casual game!"
    But the result was losing lots of players and a diverse community.

    And you've kept it up for 5 years. Everyone, anyone, that asks content you'll say "hahaha no we've always been casual". Yeah, no. Open world pve was always casual, which was... one aspect of the game. PvP's design is WAY too difficult for a "casual" game. And WvW's design? For casuals? Some aspects, maybe. Yet it's drastically worse when only casuals play it. And fractals and raids are the same. The toxicity only increases.

    So your argument does NOTHING but alienate and indirectly flame everyone non-casual in this game. "This game is for casuals and everyone else is a negligible minority" has been repeated for years. And the result? Toxicity and a drastic decrease in playerbase and diversity.

    Keep up shouting the game is for casual players. Keep implying others are irrelevant, it'll help you I swear. It'll totally make gw2 the greatest game ever :astonished:

    I don't expect raids to be a focus. I know that the non-casual aspect of GW2 is dying in all gamemodes (well, truth is many aspects are honestly full dead) and many of the issues the game faces with these contents are because of that. Most of the issues in WvW, PvP, raids and fractals nowadays are just issues that arrised because of the veteran population leaving. This thread is proof of it.

    I don't expect a "raid focus". I do wish that I wouldn't get random casuals attacking everything that isn't their prefered content telling us we shouldn't get it, because the game is for them. :)

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem is not the lack of challenging content itself, it's the release pace which is too long for players. But Anet has finite sources; smaller ones than other companies. It's just not possible for them to hand out stuff to satisfy all the little parts at once. When you realized that as a player - casual or hardcore - and can accept that there is another world out there, maybe other (non-MMO) games you are way more relaxed.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    I'd rather redo raids for the 6th time or sit in pvp queue for 10 minutes than do non-cm fractals. I can live with repeating content. I can't live with constantly repeating content that is only getting easier, with players who only get worse as the content gets easier, only to see what was once organised and fun become a daily clownfiesta and frankly frustrating to do.

    Well, it's rather obvious that you just haven't played enough raids till now and are just not burned out there compared to fracs. I have over 1k LIs and almost all of the wings are just boring stuff like repeating T4 fracs. Be honest with yourself, there's no challenge at beating VG, Gorse or KC than doing TO, SO or others.
    When pugging raids it's the same with T4s. Either you pick high LI/KP raid groups (equalized to t4 meta pugs) or you'll struggle a lot as well with trash chronos, trash druid/healers and abysmal dmg numbers.
    And to be fair: Raids got easier as well...

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    The problem is not the lack of challenging content itself, it's the release pace which is too long for players. But Anet has finite sources; smaller ones than other companies. It's just not possible for them to hand out stuff to satisfy all the little parts at once. When you realized that as a player - casual or hardcore - and can accept that there is another world out there, maybe other (non-MMO) games you are way more relaxed.

    If you don't think overall content-cadence has decreased over the games lifespan then I think we've been playing a different game. I think the quality of PvE updates has gone up, and overall quality, direction and amount of content has drastically gone down.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    I'd rather redo raids for the 6th time or sit in pvp queue for 10 minutes than do non-cm fractals. I can live with repeating content. I can't live with constantly repeating content that is only getting easier, with players who only get worse as the content gets easier, only to see what was once organised and fun become a daily clownfiesta and frankly frustrating to do.

    Well, it's rather obvious that you just haven't played enough raids till now and are just not burned out there compared to fracs. I have over 1k LIs and almost all of the wings are just boring stuff like repeating T4 fracs. Be honest with yourself, there's no challenge at beating VG, Gorse or KC than doing TO, SO or others.
    When pugging raids it's the same with T4s. Either you pick high LI/KP raid groups (equalized to t4 meta pugs) or you'll struggle a lot as well with trash chronos, trash druid/healers and abysmal dmg numbers.
    And to be fair: Raids got easier as well...

    Yes and no. I'm near 1k li too; i'm not impressed. Content gets "grindy" a lot less quickly if i'm not full AFK. I don't repeat escort and trio 100 times. In fact, I think i did escort once (?) since PoF. I'll pay for a KC opener rather than do escort. But trying out new strats, tactics or classes on bosses can be fun. I'm not pretending VG or KC are difficult. I am saying VG is still more entertaining than literally any non-cm fractal. I'm saying i'm the kind of person that has done dhuum cm several times after having done the achievement to help others / out of boreddom / ... Also, the player quality at high LI is still drastically better than anything in non-cm fractals too.

    I agree raids are too easy and got far easier with insane powercreep and ignoring every mechanic in the game, etc. But I can't solo them. Well, except river. And honestly, solo'ing river was good entertainment ;). Meanwhile T4 fractals are ... solo carrying 4 players if you join pugs. Decent but mostly grindy if you join CMs + T4s. So really, the only thing that exists is CMs.

    I do stuff for fun, not the rewards, and frankly can't stand redoing regular T4's with how dull they have become. If I want to grind dailies to look pretty, I've got a long list of well-suited asian MMO's.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    If you don't think overall content-cadence has decreased over the games lifespan then I think we've been playing a different game. I think the quality of PvE updates has gone up, and overall quality, direction and amount of content has drastically gone down.

    Nobody denies that but it's still too less content for a lot of players in their niches. Btw. it's the same with other MMOs. Developers cannot deliver content in a pace that can keep up with players playing it and not getting burned out due to hardcore playing. We just need to take a look at the few known raid streamers. They raid out-and-out, no wonder ppl getting bored and leave the game. I don't belong to that group, of course I want to play challenging content but I also play the things at festivals, doing achievements and crafting stuff like legendaries etc. And since I'm not online for about 12+ hours a day (like some of the above mentioned player) I don't burn out that fast on distinct content.

    Yes and no. I'm near 1k li too; i'm not impressed.

    Has nothing to do with impressing someone. It just means that some of us (probably you as well) have killed most of the bosses more than hundred times now and that's what makes them boring after playing that often.

    Content gets "grindy" a lot less quickly if i'm not full AFK. I don't repeat escort and trio 100 times. In fact, I think i did escort once (?) since PoF. I'll pay for a KC opener rather than do escort. But trying out new strats, tactics or classes on bosses can be fun. I'm not pretending VG or KC are difficult. I am saying VG is still more entertaining than literally any non-cm fractal. I'm saying i'm the kind of person that has done dhuum cm several times after having done the achievement to help others / out of boreddom / ... Also, the player quality at high LI is still drastically better than anything in non-cm fractals too.

    See, and that's more a subjective thing and not objective since I find VG so freaking boring no matter what tactic I have played or seen so far. He was cool when he was introduced but not any longer years after.
    Also, pugging raids is aids for me in non-high-kp groups while fractals "can" be fun (they must not). Just an attitude thing.

    I do stuff for fun, not the rewards, and frankly can't stand redoing regular T4's with how dull they have become. If I want to grind dailies to look pretty, I've got a long list of well-suited asian MMO's.

    Again subjective, for me raiding is mostly for rewards and a lot other people as well. They do their daily clear (most often with fun) and then don't touch them again till next week.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

    I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

    And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

    GW2 was always casual. There was always some harder content but the majority was casual. Why did they ever assume that raids would be a focus? It was pretty clear from the beginning that raids will be a side project.

    GOOD. This is exactly what I needed. This is why GW2 won't retain veterans and hardcore players.

    You know on release, WvW had a huge population. And PvP did too. And they also both had some issues ... Yet casuals already stated "hey we're slightly bigger and you should cater to us first!". It tooks YEARS to adress the issues with these modes, and many players quit.
    And then the casuals go "HEY LOOK, we're more see we're right GW2 is a casual game!"
    But the result was losing lots of players and a diverse community.

    And you've kept it up for 5 years. Everyone, anyone, that asks content you'll say "hahaha no we've always been casual". Yeah, no. Open world pve was always casual, which was... one aspect of the game. PvP's design is WAY too difficult for a "casual" game. And WvW's design? For casuals? Some aspects, maybe. Yet it's drastically worse when only casuals play it. And fractals and raids are the same. The toxicity only increases.

    First off, the pvp scene was never big, it was barely alive except for 1-2 months after vanilla release. So there goes that out the window.

    Second, yes WvW was bigger in the past and yes WvW needs more love. WvW also was never hardcore but a mix of casual mass zerging and organized groups. The same WvW for over 6 years will lose out on players. I have firends in their 3-4k WvW ranks. Most of them did not quit due to how easy or hard WvW is but due to lack of content. This has nothing to do with casual or hardcore content development.

    Third, there was only open world pve up until HoT. Even dungeons were never hard. People were simply under geared the first 3 months after release.

    The game is casual. You can see it in every aspect of design and especially in how vanilla story, dungeons, balance and monetization was/is.

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    So your argument does NOTHING but alienate and indirectly flame everyone non-casual in this game. "This game is for casuals and everyone else is a negligible minority" has been repeated for years. And the result? Toxicity and a drastic decrease in playerbase and diversity.

    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    Toxicity has always been present in MMO group content. I challenge you to prove that this is higher (laughable) in GW2 than in other MMOs. The wide conception is that GW2 is one of the friendliest MMO games community wise.

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    Keep up shouting the game is for casual players. Keep implying others are irrelevant, it'll help you I swear. It'll totally make gw2 the greatest game ever :astonished:

    I don't expect raids to be a focus. I know that the non-casual aspect of GW2 is dying in all game modes (well, truth is many aspects are honestly full dead) and many of the issues the game faces with these contents are because of that. Most of the issues in WvW, PvP, raids and fractals nowadays are just issues that arrised because of the veteran population leaving. This thread is proof of it.

    I don't expect a "raid focus". I do wish that I wouldn't get random casuals attacking everything that isn't their preferred content telling us we shouldn't get it, because the game is for them. :)

    You know a lot of things while staying blind to metrics and even openly available data. Here is a side fun fact for you: Arenanet has a ton of more metrics and base their design and development decisions around those. It is highly unlikely they approach content development at random.

    The fact that raids are down population wise has a multitude of reasons:

    • it's summer (there a big one right off the bat)
    • the last expansion is 1 year old, people return for story or new raids momentarily at best
    • a huge drive for raids has been spread out over all 3 game modes (legendary armor)
    • the amount of Legendary Insights available has gone from 3 per week to 17 per week currently, drastically reducing time until first armor

    Even having a new raid wing ever 3 months would not remedie some of those factors. Here is another one: WoWs expansion is hitting in 2 weeks. Expect the playerbase to shrink even more then, and that too will have nothing to do with casual or hardcore gamers.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    If you don't think overall content-cadence has decreased over the games lifespan then I think we've been playing a different game. I think the quality of PvE updates has gone up, and overall quality, direction and amount of content has drastically gone down.

    Nobody denies that but it's still too less content for a lot of players in their niches. Btw. it's the same with other MMOs. Developers cannot deliver content in a pace that can keep up with players playing it and not getting burned out due to hardcore playing. We just need to take a look at the few known raid streamers. They raid out-and-out, no wonder ppl getting bored and leave the game.

    Yes and no. I'm near 1k li too; i'm not impressed.

    Has nothing to do with impressing someone. It just means that some of us (probably you as well) have killed most of the bosses more than hundred times now and that's what makes them boring after playing that often.

    Content gets "grindy" a lot less quickly if i'm not full AFK. I don't repeat escort and trio 100 times. In fact, I think i did escort once (?) since PoF. I'll pay for a KC opener rather than do escort. But trying out new strats, tactics or classes on bosses can be fun. I'm not pretending VG or KC are difficult. I am saying VG is still more entertaining than literally any non-cm fractal. I'm saying i'm the kind of person that has done dhuum cm several times after having done the achievement to help others / out of boreddom / ... Also, the player quality at high LI is still drastically better than anything in non-cm fractals too.

    See, and that's more a subjective thing and not objective since I find VG so freaking boring no matter what tactic I have played or seen so far. He was cool when he was introduced but not any longer years after.
    Also, pugging raids is aids for me in non-high-kp groups while fractals "can" be fun (they must not). Just an attitude thing.

    I do stuff for fun, not the rewards, and frankly can't stand redoing regular T4's with how dull they have become. If I want to grind dailies to look pretty, I've got a long list of well-suited asian MMO's.

    Again subjective, for me raiding is mostly for rewards and a lot other people as well. They do their daily clear (most often with fun) and then don't touch them again till next week.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    If you don't think overall content-cadence has decreased over the games lifespan then I think we've been playing a different game. I think the quality of PvE updates has gone up, and overall quality, direction and amount of content has drastically gone down.

    Nobody denies that but it's still too less content for a lot of players in their niches. Btw. it's the same with other MMOs. Developers cannot deliver content in a pace that can keep up with players playing it and not getting burned out due to hardcore playing. We just need to take a look at the few known raid streamers. They raid out-and-out, no wonder ppl getting bored and leave the game. I don't belong to that group, of course I want to play challenging content but I also play the things at festivals, doing achievements and crafting stuff like legendaries etc. And since I'm not online for about 12+ hours a day (like some of the above mentioned player) I don't burn out that fast on distinct content.

    My niche is "ANY COMBAT" that is challenging. I've gotten 0 challenging content other than W5. WvW has gotten nothing. PvP has gotten nothing. In fact they get drastically worse as veterans and guilds quit in both modes. PvE is as you stated, new fractals aren't challenging. That leaves W5...

    I'm not saying "there isn't enough pure raid content". I'm literally saying there is almost NOTHING except for pure casual content in the last year +.
    I get it, if you grind 12 hours a day obviously you'll be repeating stuff. I'm not grinding 12 hours a day, and i haven't seen much "new" stuff. Have you? I've seen W5. Nothing WvW. Nothing PvP. Nothing difficult anywhere else.

    It's not like i've done W5 three times daily for the last months. There just really hasn't been any challenging content in a really long time. And there won't be more.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

    I know that but those players had hope since new raid and fractal was announced. Then they said that new raid will be relesade next patch (so there are fewer time between new content) and fractal wasnt what they were looking for. That means that they will return once new raid wing is here (next patch).

    And anet showed us that they can make easy fractals with "dungeon feel" like many fractal players that dont enjoy new fractals wanted and still make it entertaining for hardcore players. Example can be reworked molten boss. This fractal is pretty easy with no hard mechanics and bosses but it is still entertaining to hardcore players. The reason is that you actualy can make huge time diference with good strategy and skipping. On the other hand there are not that many options to make deepstone faster and there is basicaly not any danger. Basicaly deepstone is almost solid ocean that takes longer time (but i have to say it looks beautiful).

    GW2 was always casual. There was always some harder content but the majority was casual. Why did they ever assume that raids would be a focus? It was pretty clear from the beginning that raids will be a side project.

    GOOD. This is exactly what I needed. This is why GW2 won't retain veterans and hardcore players.

    You know on release, WvW had a huge population. And PvP did too. And they also both had some issues ... Yet casuals already stated "hey we're slightly bigger and you should cater to us first!". It tooks YEARS to adress the issues with these modes, and many players quit.
    And then the casuals go "HEY LOOK, we're more see we're right GW2 is a casual game!"
    But the result was losing lots of players and a diverse community.

    And you've kept it up for 5 years. Everyone, anyone, that asks content you'll say "hahaha no we've always been casual". Yeah, no. Open world pve was always casual, which was... one aspect of the game. PvP's design is WAY too difficult for a "casual" game. And WvW's design? For casuals? Some aspects, maybe. Yet it's drastically worse when only casuals play it. And fractals and raids are the same. The toxicity only increases.

    First off, the pvp scene was never big, it was barely alive except for 1-2 months after vanilla release. So there goes that out the window.

    Second, yes WvW was bigger in the past and yes WvW needs more love. WvW also was never hardcore but a mix of casual mass zerging and organized groups. The same WvW for over 6 years will lose out on players. I have firends in their 3-4k WvW ranks. Most of them did not quit due to how easy or hard WvW is but due to lack of content. This has nothing to do with casual or hardcore content development.

    Third, there was only open world pve up until HoT. Even dungeons were never hard. People were simply under geared the first 3 months after release.

    PvP was much, much bigger than it is now. But yes, it has pretty clear issues with balance and no matchmaking back then. Still, PvP's issues are only getting worse as the game gets more casual.

    Yes, WvW needs more love. WvW was a healthy mix of hardcore and casual. And who quit? Everyone half hardcore. All the organised groups. Half the pugmanders that lead those mass zergs. The same WvW for 6 years is perfectly fine if it's not designed for casuals and completely ignored, but it was. And you know what PvE players said? Screw WvW, it's not important there's more pve players anyways. And here we are.

    You see WvW did not need "content" in terms of new fluffy stuff, maps, gliding, mounts, all that casual stuff. It did need balance, support, improved coverage / ppt fix. So when we get casual oriented stuff like ... a wonderful looking desert bl that they demand, that doesn't function, that ruins PPT balance and is impossible to fight for objectives at an even scale then yeah, i'd say it's catered and demanded by casuals.

    If wvw gets gliding and reward updates, which are then further updated to promote afk-ing, low level gameplay and not winning, active or good gameplay then i'd say yeah catered to casuals rather than the veterans issues which -still- aren't fixed. It's almost as if EU was telling anet coverage-based PPT couldn't work 5 years ago. Alliances coming soon and they still won't consider fixing it ;)

    I'm not comparing toxicity in GW2 to other games. I'm comparing toxicity in non-openworld PVE. The elitism in WvW between casuals and vets has definitely increased drastically. Similar for raids and fractals in my book. Most definitely for PvP.

    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Deepstone was the final nail for some hardcore pve players. Anet decided that they will alternate between fractals and raids. That would be ok if they also didnt relese fractal for other side of comunity (that want fractals to be easy....)

    The question is, how did hardcore pve players not see it coming?

    I remember asking for wvw and being told this is a pve game with some pvp balancing. More and more wvw players - especially hardcore oriented ones - quit as it's clear there is little to no love for them and the same players say "see, everyone loves pve!".
    Then the exact same happened to PvP. And we lost those players too. And now everyone goes "pvp is very awful and toxic" as we replaced the original community that enjoyed the mode with players who mostly do it for rewards; and matchmaking struggles more than ever with a lack of players.

    I mean obviously raids is the next step; what else is there? There is no other hardcore content that has been the focus - ever - and GW2 has become super casual and carebear oriented in the last 5 years. You make a thread about more difficult content and you'll get a LOT of players saying no, this content is too hard and most players aren't interested in challenging content.

    Each time, we use the argument that "a majority of players doesn't do this content" to invalidate the opinions of a (large) minority of our population...Which makes the majority bigger and the minority smaller - something used as "proof" by the majority for their statements.
    But the overall group? The overall group lost a niche and diversity. But hey, who cares about those right? Toxic elitists anyways!

    The game is hardcore casual, and anything that isn't will eventually get bullied out. I mean they're "toxic elitists that make the game worse". (Not really, the game becomes more toxic and elitist with less hardcore players, as it's harder for hardcore players to find appropriate people to play with and the overall skill level drops.)

    You should have seen it coming. You should be more pragmatic like WvW or PvP players. You expect to get NOTHING, and if you get something you're happily suprised. Then again, most pvp and wvw players quit too ;)

    Well, to be fair the fractals released before Deepstone was actually nice for hardcore players. Nightmare, Shattered Observatory and Twilight Oasis are all on the "challenging" side of the spectrum (when it comes to fractals), even without counting the CM the first two offered. Also Hall of Chains features pretty solid bosses, if only two of them.

    So I don't think ANet have been neglecting the their hardcore playerbase. At least not yet. If the next raid wing turns out to be a joke and if the new fractal releases are all similar to Deepstone, then I'll agree. Currently, I don't see a real reason to complain. I mean, sure, I'd like it better if DS was another cool fractal with good bosses that you actually had to pay attention to. But it's OK to release less hardcore content as well. There are players seeking that, too.

    Well If fractals is hard for you you can go lower tier. Hardcore players have no such option. And it wouldnt be that hard to implement challange mode for deepstone. Like when you fall you die and something like tequatl waves. They decided to go with no CM and with no dificulty.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    No, everything that is played by 5-10% of the player base is niche. I disagree on the game having shifted and you haven't shown as much so far besides your own subjective opinion.

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    The ascpects of the game which had the most players experience problems. Not sure, what is your point?

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Having 15 years of MMO experience (DAoC, WoW, Warhammer Online, Eve Online), yes I do stand by my assessment that the GW2 community is the friendliest I have experienced so far. Maybe I got lucky with the people and guilds I met/joined.

    No one is dissuading you from stating concerns. I'm personally disagreeing that the concerns of the few are more important than those of the many.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Having 15 years of MMO experience (DAoC, WoW, Warhammer Online, Eve Online), yes I do stand by my assessment that the GW2 community is the friendliest I have experienced so far. Maybe I got lucky with the people and guilds I met/joined.

    No one is dissuading you from stating concerns. I'm personally disagreeing that the concerns of the few are more important than those of the many.

    Nah, you are absolutely right, without any doubt. Even though I don't make use it very often, the community is by far the friendliest. And that can be repeatedly seen on reddit every day.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    Definitely wrong. We haven't had anything related to fractal cms before HoT in PvE or anything you can compare to raids.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

    He probably means HoT beta. That one was nasty. Pocket raptors and sharpshooters basically instakilled you.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So as soon as I post in this thread about the absence of elite parties in fractals, I get the best LFG group I've seen all year. So random. It must be the work of RNGesus.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

    I remember not being able to face tank everything in personal story and let auto attack does all the work. Sure having more experience helps, but it is undeniable that Anet dumbed a lot of things down

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

    I remember not being able to face tank everything in personal story and let auto attack does all the work. Sure having more experience helps, but it is undeniable that Anet dumbed a lot of things down

    Except Harpies. Harpies are forever stronk.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

    I remember not being able to face tank everything in personal story and let auto attack does all the work. Sure having more experience helps, but it is undeniable that Anet dumbed a lot of things down

    You remember wrong. Except the eye of Zaithan and Ruins of Orr story mode nothing got a real nerf. You just were undergeared and/or didn't know what you were doing. Most of the story was always pretty faceroll.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that the metrics on sites as gw2efficiency speak a clear language and show where and what a majority of the player base do and play. It's casual content.

    lul. 5 years of bullying everything that isn't casual. 5 years of next to no content for anything that isn't casual. 5 years of being told you're elitist the moment you aren't casual. And you're suprised that now - now players are mostly casual? surely you grasp how this works. That's my entire point.

    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    Not sure if serious.

    • introduction of fractals during vanilla and the constant rework needed to make them widely acceptable and played (larger difficulty tiers, better rewards, etc.)
    • The outrage after HoTs release and the subsequent nerfs for that open world content across the board multiple times.
    • introduction of raids with HoT
    • difficulty of story content starting HoT versus vanilla (and the subsequent nerfs to said content to make it complete-able)

    Was all done to add some diverse content. It always was a fraction of the total content. Logical conclusion: the vast majority of players was/is casual.

    @Etheri.5406 said:
    You get how this works. "No there are no problems - anet has perfect measurements, you're not a majority and your feedback isn't relevant!" Problems don't get resolved, feedback isn't even welcome until players who face the issues get fed up and leave. And you continue to pretend there are no issues; yet the state of the game doesn't improve.

    You are taking assumptions, mix them with questionable facts and then deliver painful conclusions. I never said Arenanets approach or metrix are perfect. I am not as arrogant though to assume they are wrong on everything all the time (which is essentially what you would have to prove if you want to show that the game was not designed as casual MMO).

    Nobody was bullied into leaving the game. People left because they did not find what they were looking for in GW2. That's not being bullied out of a game, that's realizing the game is not to ones liking.

    I could go over to the WoW boards, start complaining that WoW could be such a great game without gear progression, show how gear progression was slower during vanilla, complain and demand that Blizzard stop devaluing gear and stick to 1 final max rank tier. I would get laughed out of the forums. Blizzard designs their game around their player bases demands. Similar to Arenanet.

    You are part of a niche segment, so am I. I have accepted this in GW2 and knowing the game would suffer if the focus were put on only stuff I want, I'm happy with knowing the game is quite casual.

    Everything that isn't casual is niche now; this was far from true on release. The tendencies have shifted very heavily towards casuals; and ultimately it mostly makes the game worse.

    I do remember HoT being "too difficult". By this I mean appearantly that was a bigger problem than various gamemodes including S1 pvp and WvW as a whole being literally unplayable. Guess what was fixed first? ;)

    And i'm sorry but stating concerns aren't valid because you're not a target group is bullying. It's literally the majority / stronger group saying "we do not care about your concerns". Then again, you actually believe gw2's community is "friendliest mmo community"- I'm out.

    Yes, I remember when even the personal story was somewhat challenging (back in the beta events) and not faceroll to win. Then they nerfed it multiple times to make casuals happy. Because apparently story cant be challenging even when you fight some very feared opponents.
    To tell the truth I wouldnt have bought GW2 if it would already be this boring in beta

    The only thing i remember being even kinda challenging about was being undergeared and obviously not knowing classes. Im sure if i went back in time and retained that same knowledge it would be just as faceroll easy as it is now outside of a few fights(like Zhaitain).

    I remember not being able to face tank everything in personal story and let auto attack does all the work. Sure having more experience helps, but it is undeniable that Anet dumbed a lot of things down

    You remember wrong. Except the eye of Zaithan and Ruins of Orr story mode nothing got a real nerf. You just were undergeared and/or didn't know what you were doing. Most of the story was always pretty faceroll.

    No, I do not remember wrong. I have a very good long term memory. Even the low level personal story had champions that could easily kill you if you didnt watch out. Now they are just boring auto attack fiestas, even when playing them at their appropriate level.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    He probably means HoT beta. That one was nasty. Pocket raptors and sharpshooters basically instakilled you.

    Was it really though? i played during it, and maybe it was because of how i played normally at the time, outside of sharpshooters cause lol invisible, i didnt have issues(killing everything as you go makes things easier instead of trying to run!)

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    No, I do not remember wrong. I have a very good long term memory. Even the low level personal story had champions that could easily kill you if you didnt watch out. Now they are just boring auto attack fiestas, even when playing them at their appropriate level.

    I remember the champions too they usually happened during the last story instance for that particular story grouping if i remember correctly, also yes you couldnt just auto attack, but having that player knowledge wouldve made things infinitely easier.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    He probably means HoT beta. That one was nasty. Pocket raptors and sharpshooters basically instakilled you.

    Was it really though? i played during it, and maybe it was because of how i played normally at the time, outside of sharpshooters cause lol invisible, i didnt have issues(killing everything as you go makes things easier instead of trying to run!)

    Compared to release or 2nd beta it was. The first one did have more and differnt types of mobs in story aswell. The very first one had a group of sharpshooters that basically killed you if you didnt dodge.
    Was there to show mechanics like lots of stuff but forum cried too much and it was toned down quite a lot for the 2nd beta event.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    He probably means HoT beta. That one was nasty. Pocket raptors and sharpshooters basically instakilled you.

    Was it really though? i played during it, and maybe it was because of how i played normally at the time, outside of sharpshooters cause lol invisible, i didnt have issues(killing everything as you go makes things easier instead of trying to run!)

    Compared to release or 2nd beta it was. The first one did have more and differnt types of mobs in story aswell. The very first one had a group of sharpshooters that basically killed you if you didnt dodge.
    Was there to show mechanics like lots of stuff but forum cried too much and it was toned down quite a lot for the 2nd beta event.

    Ah, i dont really recall that from the first beta, but i also think for the first beta i just ran around SW on rev.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Zaraki.5784Zaraki.5784 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    You guys are going way too deep morally, Lincoln/Douglas debate style here. No one is arguing with the moral side of things you're stating. I'm simply referencing that it only takes 3 people to vote kick some guy who joins on a Core Guardian, who does not have the option to play DH. So before judging him based on elite raid discrimination, just give the guy a chance to be effective before kicking.

    This does happen often to players who don't own w/e expansion it is that they need to run a meta, and this is a large part of why you don't see many people in T4s running core builds. They catch so much grief for it that it drives them away from the game mode, regardless of their performance. <- This is called discrimination. These people are making due with what they have access to, or sometimes it's just a bored "Fractal God" who wanted to run something different, who probably can out DPS everyone else in the party and solo things like Arkk, with an off meta build.

    Before you respond again, with morals and anecdotal facts, know that I am not searching for responses and regurgitated statements. I am simply pointing out, that T4 fractals are not hard and the difference between Having a power burst DH or a Grieving Core Guardian in your team is maybe 2 to 3 minutes tops, at the end of your run.

    Before you respond again, about "playing how you like or doing what you want" remember that I am not talking about kicking players who truly are poor players or who have terrible setups or who just aren't on the right class "say you wanted a Chrono, not a Berserker Warrior". No one is questioning these kind of kicks. I am talking about flat out discrimination based on preconceived elitist attitudes that a player is immediately bad or ineffective because he is not running what a meta site has listed.

    ~ Players should stop defending discriminatory party kicking as it is an ignorant practice that further limits build diversity in easy game modes.

    2 guild friends and me often run a 4 condi scourges+1 druid (the latter one being one of the 2 friends of mine) for t4 dailies, so we look for 2 more condi scourges in lfg description. Is it the best comp for T4? No, it's not but it's how we want to do them.
    We like this composition and we don't want any change to that, even if it would outperform our comp and whenever someone who doesn't read lfg description join us saying "I don't have scourge, can I come X?" or "I am crono/war/weaver dps/condi class different from scourge/etc, it's better than scourge", we insta-kick him/her.
    The point of this story is: we have all rights to have the class we want in our party and we have all rights to kick every people who don't respect that!

    "Sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never be able to injure you!"
    The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy

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