With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

rng.1024 · May 18, 2019

@praqtos.9035 said:
@"rng.1024" said:The laser functions as a projectile, although with it being unblockable and all it doesn't really matter. But as with all projectiles, it has a travel time. The further away from the engi you are when it fires, the longer it takes to hit you. In this timeframe, you can move out of it's rectangular AoE given you are far enough away before it even hits.If that would be a thing just running away would be enough to to avoid it or give me exact time stamp on the video ... Would be appreciated, yes, Id rather to not risk getting screwed by that and evade if I actually can see the engineer.More over as I said, they just use "mass invis elixir" for resustain and throw off elite at you so you cant even see that

4:18 in the first video (there are more)2:17 on the second video (more in depth, you can see the travel time)

Most of the time if you use about face as you see the holo charging his elite you can get about half the distance of the skill before it casts, which is oh so satisfying when you're juuust out of range. Keeping your distance to begin with helps alot, so swap to your ranged set when they enter forge.

If they run the metabuild, they only have that 1 option for instant stealth meaning you can know for sure something is coming. The moment you see a holo stealth, walk or dodge to cover as fast as possible. Or about face then leap straight away from it. Do not worry about the node, he won't cap it at all until he hits something or it runs out. But if you can see it being cast, and dodge/evade/invuln it then it's just as good.

If you have access to stealth or detargets by other means using them right before the channel ends while moving to either side means it will miss entirely aswell.

praqtos.9035 · May 18, 2019

@rng.1024 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:
@rng.1024 said:The laser functions as a projectile, although with it being unblockable and all it doesn't really matter. But as with all projectiles, it has a travel time. The further away from the engi you are when it fires, the longer it takes to hit you. In this timeframe, you can move out of it's rectangular AoE given you are far enough away before it even hits.If that would be a thing just running away would be enough to to avoid it or give me exact time stamp on the video ... Would be appreciated, yes, Id rather to not risk getting screwed by that and evade if I actually can see the engineer.More over as I said, they just use "mass invis elixir" for resustain and throw off elite at you so you cant even see that

4:18 in the first video (there are more)2:17 on the second video (more in depth, you can see the travel time)

Most of the time if you use about face as you see the holo charging his elite you can get about half the distance of the skill before it casts, which is oh so satisfying when you're juuust out of range. Keeping your distance to begin with helps alot, so swap to your ranged set when they enter forge.

If they run the metabuild, they only have that 1 option for instant stealth meaning you can know for sure something is coming. The moment you see a holo stealth, walk or dodge to cover as fast as possible. Or about face then leap straight away from it. Do not worry about the node, he won't cap it at all until he hits something or it runs out. But if you can see it being cast, and dodge/evade/invuln it then it's just as good.

If you have access to stealth or detargets by other means using them right before the channel ends while moving to either side means it will miss entirely aswell.

Boyce took damage from the laser, have you seen width of the laser ? How the heck you want to SIDE STEP THAT?This elixir is 1 of my biggest issues(right after spammable forge skills with 20-25 might stacks),its SIX seconds on 32s cooldown, by that time he will resustain all he wants and have plently of time to start and do a free opening on you.

rng.1024 · May 19, 2019

@praqtos.9035 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:
@rng.1024 said:The laser functions as a projectile, although with it being unblockable and all it doesn't really matter. But as with all projectiles, it has a travel time. The further away from the engi you are when it fires, the longer it takes to hit you. In this timeframe, you can move out of it's rectangular AoE given you are far enough away before it even hits.If that would be a thing just running away would be enough to to avoid it or give me exact time stamp on the video ... Would be appreciated, yes, Id rather to not risk getting screwed by that and evade if I actually can see the engineer.More over as I said, they just use "mass invis elixir" for resustain and throw off elite at you so you cant even see that

4:18 in the first video (there are more)2:17 on the second video (more in depth, you can see the travel time)

Most of the time if you use about face as you see the holo charging his elite you can get about half the distance of the skill before it casts, which is oh so satisfying when you're juuust out of range. Keeping your distance to begin with helps alot, so swap to your ranged set when they enter forge.

If they run the metabuild, they only have that 1 option for instant stealth meaning you can know for sure something is coming. The moment you see a holo stealth, walk or dodge to cover as fast as possible. Or about face then leap straight away from it. Do not worry about the node, he won't cap it at all until he hits something or it runs out. But if you can see it being cast, and dodge/evade/invuln it then it's just as good.

If you have access to stealth or detargets by other means using them right before the channel ends while moving to either side means it will miss entirely aswell.

Boyce took damage from the laser, have you seen width of the laser ? How the heck you want to SIDE STEP THAT?This elixir is 1 of my biggest issues(right after spammable forge skills with 20-25 might stacks),its SIX seconds on 32s cooldown, by that time he will resustain all he wants and have plently of time to start and do a free opening on you.

He took damage from the field, not the projectile which would chunk alot more health even in rampage if the holo had any might.

The elixir is good yeah, but he can't use it to resustain and attack at the same time. If you've been fighting him for 32 seconds you are either a duelist yourself and this is a typical sidenode fight, or you should have rotated off 22 seconds ago when he survived the burst. If it's a duel where you have no choice, then I would chunk cc where I think he is and dodge during the latter half of the duration just to be safe.

praqtos.9035 · May 19, 2019

@rng.1024 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:
@rng.1024 said:The laser functions as a projectile, although with it being unblockable and all it doesn't really matter. But as with all projectiles, it has a travel time. The further away from the engi you are when it fires, the longer it takes to hit you. In this timeframe, you can move out of it's rectangular AoE given you are far enough away before it even hits.If that would be a thing just running away would be enough to to avoid it or give me exact time stamp on the video ... Would be appreciated, yes, Id rather to not risk getting screwed by that and evade if I actually can see the engineer.More over as I said, they just use "mass invis elixir" for resustain and throw off elite at you so you cant even see that

4:18 in the first video (there are more)2:17 on the second video (more in depth, you can see the travel time)

Most of the time if you use about face as you see the holo charging his elite you can get about half the distance of the skill before it casts, which is oh so satisfying when you're juuust out of range. Keeping your distance to begin with helps alot, so swap to your ranged set when they enter forge.

If they run the metabuild, they only have that 1 option for instant stealth meaning you can know for sure something is coming. The moment you see a holo stealth, walk or dodge to cover as fast as possible. Or about face then leap straight away from it. Do not worry about the node, he won't cap it at all until he hits something or it runs out. But if you can see it being cast, and dodge/evade/invuln it then it's just as good.

If you have access to stealth or detargets by other means using them right before the channel ends while moving to either side means it will miss entirely aswell.

Boyce took damage from the laser, have you seen width of the laser ? How the heck you want to SIDE STEP THAT?This elixir is 1 of my biggest issues(right after spammable forge skills with 20-25 might stacks),its SIX seconds on 32s cooldown, by that time he will resustain all he wants and have plently of time to start and do a free opening on you.

He took damage from the field, not the projectile which would chunk alot more health even in rampage if the holo had any might.What field you are talking about ? Holo had no might if you actually watching the video. Warrior is demolisher amulet so its like 2700 armor and 25% reduction from the rampage. Seeing 2.2k from 0 might ,he used holo 3 for might later, I just tested in game,found random war,asked to use rampage and used laser, did 1780 damage (Arises question what he was thinking about when using it on the rampage xD) . Field damage is base is 227,how the heck its can crit rampage for 2.2k....without actully any field after its use? I probably completely dont understand you unless you record how YOU sidestep it... if you think its possible lolThe elixir is good yeah, but he can't use it to resustain and attack at the same time. If you've been fighting him for 32 seconds you are either a duelist yourself and this is a typical sidenode fight, or you should have rotated off 22 seconds ago when he survived the burst. If it's a duel where you have no choice, then I would chunk cc where I think he is and dodge during the latter half of the duration just to be safe.So why 6s on 32s cd is fine? Mass invisiblity as toolbelt skill ? If you dont kill holosmith in 1 go, he will back good as new shortly after blasting/leaping his turret. Dont think throwing CC right and left is good a idea,especially when lots of them need a target. Either make it 3s aoe or self-drink elixir for 3s so they wont complaint "its getting destroyed by projectile denial"

KrHome.1920 · May 19, 2019

Simple fix: increase the cooldown of every single forge skill by 50% and see what happens. If that's not enough increase the cooldowns by 100%.

The first thing I noticed after I created a holo was its ridiculously short forge cooldowns (2, 6, 10, 15s - just lol! during the regeneration of one single dodge roll you can spam your whole forge). Missing a skill on that spec doesn't matter. That's the biggest problem. Yes the opening burst is dodgeable. The telegraph is okay. Not okay is that a holo can bait defenses at will and then just continue spamming hard hitting stuff or just disengage.

So the forge cooldowns should at least be 3, 9, 15, 25.

Give the class that boon spam and that ridiculous 2x ammo 1200 range slick shoes at 18s cd - I don't care (!), but don't make holo that spammy!

Trevor Boyer.6524 · May 19, 2019

Honestly the base heal potential on Engi/Scrapper/Holo needs a cut In my opinion. I feel that its heal potential is solely responsible for why Scrapper/Holo is so strong. Something that is running Demolisher or Knight's should not be able to burst heal to full health so easily and so often. Too many water fields, too many leap finishers & blasts for those water fields. They heal themselves like a Druid while running power/prec/feroc based stats. It's a bit much. I'm not saying it needs to be neutered, just saying maybe the heal coefficients need to be turned down like 5% across the board on the class or something. Just a little bit.

Zhaid Zhem.6508 · May 19, 2019

Why my weaver has everything less than holo ? Why holo better weaver than weaver :(They should take a look on Thermal Release Valve; a class with already perma vigor; dealing dmg, healing, and lose heat on dodge ... come on ...All PF skills could have longer CD too.

Megametzler.5729 · May 19, 2019

@rng.1024 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@rng.1024 said:(...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.(...)

It follows you even when you port. You need to dodge, blind it or have stab.#

Holo is not the biggest offender right now. It is great and there is a gap between it and several other less viable classes, but there are some being more annoying. Holo comes next.

Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

What exactly is it that makes holo such a big offender in your opinion?

The sustain with such an offensive amulet, the damage for such sustainy traitlines. But I said it is

not

the biggest offender right now. :smile:

Thought you meant the projectile. But this skill is fine, I think. It simply sucks compared to Rampage for example.

Sure the sustain is decent in a 1v1, but the damage doesn't really rack that much up until they get good might going which already takes alot more than f.ex a warrior needs to do. On top of that they have barely 16000 hp, leaving them extremely vulnerable to a +1 and they need to avoid conditon bombs like everyone else. Way I see it is people get caught in an immob/cc chain and believe holo is op - however the same goes f.ex Rampage where if you dodge the boulder you will in 9/10 cases be fine.

The problem arises when people try to facetank holo and believe they should win, but the entire point of holo forge is for it to be a window of high pressure just like we saw with reaper, take away either core traitline and the sustain/damage ratio of holo becomes terrible. If you avoid key skills (Forge 3, Forge 5, elite) then it's east to see that holo doesn't really have that many tricks up it's sleeve. It's a high risk high reward type of play which I am in favour of, even in it's current tanky state. Again compare it to Defense Spellbreaker.

I should mention I am maining Ele, so I have a different view on what needs balancing than - for example - Spellbreaker. :wink: I would rather see both brought down (Spellbreaker first) than Ele buffed to their levels.

rng.1024 · May 19, 2019

@praqtos.9035 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:
@rng.1024 said:The laser functions as a projectile, although with it being unblockable and all it doesn't really matter. But as with all projectiles, it has a travel time. The further away from the engi you are when it fires, the longer it takes to hit you. In this timeframe, you can move out of it's rectangular AoE given you are far enough away before it even hits.If that would be a thing just running away would be enough to to avoid it or give me exact time stamp on the video ... Would be appreciated, yes, Id rather to not risk getting screwed by that and evade if I actually can see the engineer.More over as I said, they just use "mass invis elixir" for resustain and throw off elite at you so you cant even see that

4:18 in the first video (there are more)2:17 on the second video (more in depth, you can see the travel time)

Most of the time if you use about face as you see the holo charging his elite you can get about half the distance of the skill before it casts, which is oh so satisfying when you're juuust out of range. Keeping your distance to begin with helps alot, so swap to your ranged set when they enter forge.

If they run the metabuild, they only have that 1 option for instant stealth meaning you can know for sure something is coming. The moment you see a holo stealth, walk or dodge to cover as fast as possible. Or about face then leap straight away from it. Do not worry about the node, he won't cap it at all until he hits something or it runs out. But if you can see it being cast, and dodge/evade/invuln it then it's just as good.

If you have access to stealth or detargets by other means using them right before the channel ends while moving to either side means it will miss entirely aswell.

Boyce took damage from the laser, have you seen width of the laser ? How the heck you want to SIDE STEP THAT?This elixir is 1 of my biggest issues(right after spammable forge skills with 20-25 might stacks),its SIX seconds on 32s cooldown, by that time he will resustain all he wants and have plently of time to start and do a free opening on you.

He took damage from the field, not the projectile which would chunk alot more health even in rampage if the holo had any might.What field you are talking about ? Holo had no might if you actually watching the video. Warrior is demolisher amulet so its like 2700 armor and 25% reduction from the rampage. Seeing 2.2k from 0 might ,he used holo 3 for might later, I just tested in game,found random war,asked to use rampage and used laser, did 1780 damage (Arises question what he was thinking about when using it on the rampage xD) . Field damage is base is 227,how the heck its can crit rampage for 2.2k....without actully any field after its use? I probably completely dont understand you unless you record how YOU sidestep it... if you think its possible lolThe elixir is good yeah, but he can't use it to resustain and attack at the same time. If you've been fighting him for 32 seconds you are either a duelist yourself and this is a typical sidenode fight, or you should have rotated off 22 seconds ago when he survived the burst. If it's a duel where you have no choice, then I would chunk cc where I think he is and dodge during the latter half of the duration just to be safe.So why 6s on 32s cd is fine? Mass invisiblity as toolbelt skill ? If you dont kill holosmith in 1 go, he will back good as new shortly after blasting/leaping his turret. Dont think throwing CC right and left is good a idea,especially when lots of them need a target. Either make it 3s aoe or self-drink elixir for 3s so they wont complaint "its getting destroyed by projectile denial"

I think you are right, especially given the elite uses 690,5 as weapon strength. I know for a fact is sidesteppable, however the time to do so is minimal and I doubt you can while staying close. I always create a gap as they enter forge to avoid the #4 projectiles or get crippled by the #2, see them charge their elite, then turn my character 90° and press W just as it fires to get out. Could be a movement speed thing as using Q or E to strafe is slower, I'm actually not sure.

You have to remember the stealth doesn't regenerate the holo in any way, if you can force the heal turret beforehand they only got Heat Therapy. The resustain is an illusion caused by the low healthpool, as any heal cause alot more recovery of total health since the total is so low. The heal is on a 20 second cooldown to boot, which is a long time to do your burst inbetween. If you interrupt or destroy the turret before they can combo (or even apply poison) then you have a massive advantage.

In my experience most holosmiths are of the type "jump in and hit all buttons, leap out and heal" meaning if you mitigate their initial burst they will want to save their heal until next they enter forge, so it's best to pressure them here getting them low and make them spend it, then burst next when they forge and don't have it available.

Why don't you think holo stealth is fine though? You don't provide cap contribution under it, it has a cast time, and you get revealed when attacking. We have reveal skills available, it needs to be properly thrown to hit and is on a higher cooldown than most utility skills even while traited.

rng.1024 · May 19, 2019

@Megametzler.5729 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@rng.1024 said:(...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.(...)

It follows you even when you port. You need to dodge, blind it or have stab.#

Holo is not the biggest offender right now. It is great and there is a gap between it and several other less viable classes, but there are some being more annoying. Holo comes next.

Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

What exactly is it that makes holo such a big offender in your opinion?

The sustain with such an offensive amulet, the damage for such sustainy traitlines. But I said it is

not

the biggest offender right now. :smile:

Thought you meant the projectile. But this skill is fine, I think. It simply sucks compared to Rampage for example.

Sure the sustain is decent in a 1v1, but the damage doesn't really rack that much up until they get good might going which already takes alot more than f.ex a warrior needs to do. On top of that they have barely 16000 hp, leaving them extremely vulnerable to a +1 and they need to avoid conditon bombs like everyone else. Way I see it is people get caught in an immob/cc chain and believe holo is op - however the same goes f.ex Rampage where if you dodge the boulder you will in 9/10 cases be fine.

The problem arises when people try to facetank holo and believe they should win, but the entire point of holo forge is for it to be a window of high pressure just like we saw with reaper, take away either core traitline and the sustain/damage ratio of holo becomes terrible. If you avoid key skills (Forge 3, Forge 5, elite) then it's east to see that holo doesn't really have that many tricks up it's sleeve. It's a high risk high reward type of play which I am in favour of, even in it's current tanky state. Again compare it to Defense Spellbreaker.

I should mention I am maining Ele, so I have a different view on what needs balancing than - for example - Spellbreaker. :wink: I would rather see both brought down (Spellbreaker first) than Ele buffed to their levels.

Cookie for you, way to few ele mains around! :)

I don't know, once you get to terms with being squishier and how ele is supposed to be hazing enemies with frequent bursts, then the matchups aren't too bad. I for one love fighting warriors because it's a clean cut fight I can win as long as I don't proc their tether.

I also realized what you run matters alot, I used to run with only 1 stunbreak and everything was hardmode, with tempest f.ex they are soo abundant with overloads. Another issue arose with the change to Arcane Fury where necro's can really get value from their corrupts constantly, which makes that matchup trickier. Also core guard before the nerf with their blocks and AoE, however not as bad as of right now.

I actually believe all matchups to be fair, but I am a glasscannon so I expect to have little defence, but the burst is magnificent meaning I can swing the fight against anything except firebrands and scrappers.

Also as an ele I've come to realise 90% of what decides the fights are what you do during dodges, as you need to think ahead constantly - which is why I enjoy playing it, however already there other professions have an easier time without even counting in power-differences.

Arheundel.6451 · May 19, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Honestly the base heal potential on Engi/Scrapper/Holo needs a cut In my opinion. I feel that its heal potential is solely responsible for why Scrapper/Holo is so strong. Something that is running Demolisher or Knight's should not be able to burst heal to full health so easily and so often. Too many water fields, too many leap finishers & blasts for those water fields. They heal themselves like a Druid while running power/prec/feroc based stats. It's a bit much. I'm not saying it needs to be neutered, just saying maybe the heal coefficients need to be turned down like 5% across the board on the class or something. Just a little bit.

Something that does not invest in healing power at all , should not be able to heal as much as an ele who invest every single point in healing...it's just stupid

Megametzler.5729 · May 19, 2019

@rng.1024 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@rng.1024 said:(...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.(...)

It follows you even when you port. You need to dodge, blind it or have stab.#

Holo is not the biggest offender right now. It is great and there is a gap between it and several other less viable classes, but there are some being more annoying. Holo comes next.

Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

What exactly is it that makes holo such a big offender in your opinion?

The sustain with such an offensive amulet, the damage for such sustainy traitlines. But I said it is

not

the biggest offender right now. :smile:

Thought you meant the projectile. But this skill is fine, I think. It simply sucks compared to Rampage for example.

Sure the sustain is decent in a 1v1, but the damage doesn't really rack that much up until they get good might going which already takes alot more than f.ex a warrior needs to do. On top of that they have barely 16000 hp, leaving them extremely vulnerable to a +1 and they need to avoid conditon bombs like everyone else. Way I see it is people get caught in an immob/cc chain and believe holo is op - however the same goes f.ex Rampage where if you dodge the boulder you will in 9/10 cases be fine.

The problem arises when people try to facetank holo and believe they should win, but the entire point of holo forge is for it to be a window of high pressure just like we saw with reaper, take away either core traitline and the sustain/damage ratio of holo becomes terrible. If you avoid key skills (Forge 3, Forge 5, elite) then it's east to see that holo doesn't really have that many tricks up it's sleeve. It's a high risk high reward type of play which I am in favour of, even in it's current tanky state. Again compare it to Defense Spellbreaker.

I should mention I am maining Ele, so I have a different view on what needs balancing than - for example - Spellbreaker. :wink: I would rather see both brought down (Spellbreaker first) than Ele buffed to their levels.

Cookie for you, way to few ele mains around! :)

I don't know, once you get to terms with being squishier and how ele is supposed to be hazing enemies with frequent bursts, then the matchups aren't too bad. I for one love fighting warriors because it's a clean cut fight I can win as long as I don't proc their tether.

I also realized what you run matters alot, I used to run with only 1 stunbreak and everything was hardmode, with tempest f.ex they are soo abundant with overloads. Another issue arose with the change to Arcane Fury where necro's can really get value from their corrupts constantly, which makes that matchup trickier. Also core guard before the nerf with their blocks and AoE, however not as bad as of right now.

I actually believe all matchups to be fair, but I am a glasscannon so I expect to have little defence, but the burst is magnificent meaning I can swing the fight against anything except firebrands and scrappers.

Also as an ele I've come to realise 90% of what decides the fights are what you do during dodges, as you need to think ahead constantly - which is why I enjoy playing it, however already there other professions have an easier time without even counting in power-differences.

Sounds like we should share those cookies. :wink:

Yeah, I don't believe ele is all that far behind viability. It is just that all its roles are filled better by other classes. And it's been like this since PoF (and before we were condemned to heal botting only). That's a shame, but at least we can feel unique. :tongue:

praqtos.9035 · May 19, 2019

@"rng.1024" said:I think you are right, especially given the elite uses 690,5 as weapon strength. I know for a fact is sidesteppable, however the time to do so is minimal and I doubt you can while staying close. I always create a gap as they enter forge to avoid the #4 projectiles or get crippled by the #2, see them charge their elite, then turn my character 90° and press W just as it fires to get out. Could be a movement speed thing as using Q or E to strafe is slower, I'm actually not sure.Its not, unless you can record and reproduce (I think it doesnt matter at this point, if u can make it once in 100 attempts)You have to remember the stealth doesn't regenerate the holo in any way, if you can force the heal turret beforehand they only got Heat Therapy. The resustain is an illusion caused by the low healthpool, as any heal cause alot more recovery of total health since the total is so low. The heal is on a 20 second cooldown to boot, which is a long time to do your burst inbetween. If you interrupt or destroy the turret before they can combo (or even apply poison) then you have a massive advantage.So heal from just the turret for around ~12k + out of 16k ? Your "oh its 20 seconds cd" doesnt make it look any better, its not long time since he can heal in between from therapy and vent exhaust.They reworked heal-cleanses to remove conditions first before heal , good luck I guess?He will blast the turret himself way before you can destroy it, its not 2k health like the mesmer clonesIn my experience most holosmiths are of the type "jump in and hit all buttons, leap out and heal" meaning if you mitigate their initial burst they will want to save their heal until next they enter forge, so it's best to pressure them here getting them low and make them spend it, then burst next when they forge and don't have it available.PF is too spammy, most of this skill are must to dodge and PF is not the only thign you want to dodge.I agree with KrHome that forge should have higher cooldowns on every skill.Why don't you think holo stealth is fine though? You don't provide cap contribution under it, it has a cast time, and you get revealed when attacking. We have reveal skills available, it needs to be properly thrown to hit and is on a higher cooldown than most utility skills even while traited.Its not just holo stealth,its not fine in general, the only 6s stealth duration now is on mesmer elite, pulsing stealth as scrapper gyro elite and engi gets 6s aoe stealth on 32s cd on the toolbelt(I know its duration reduced by the trait). Other stealth skills are 2-3 seconds with 30-40 seconds cooldown on them. Engi is 5s, 45s cd AoE(6s long,32s recharge traited). That is not fine. It must be either shaved to 3s or given way higher cooldown.

rng.1024 · May 19, 2019

@Megametzler.5729 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@rng.1024 said:(...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.(...)

It follows you even when you port. You need to dodge, blind it or have stab.#

Holo is not the biggest offender right now. It is great and there is a gap between it and several other less viable classes, but there are some being more annoying. Holo comes next.

Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

What exactly is it that makes holo such a big offender in your opinion?

The sustain with such an offensive amulet, the damage for such sustainy traitlines. But I said it is

not

the biggest offender right now. :smile:

Thought you meant the projectile. But this skill is fine, I think. It simply sucks compared to Rampage for example.

Sure the sustain is decent in a 1v1, but the damage doesn't really rack that much up until they get good might going which already takes alot more than f.ex a warrior needs to do. On top of that they have barely 16000 hp, leaving them extremely vulnerable to a +1 and they need to avoid conditon bombs like everyone else. Way I see it is people get caught in an immob/cc chain and believe holo is op - however the same goes f.ex Rampage where if you dodge the boulder you will in 9/10 cases be fine.

The problem arises when people try to facetank holo and believe they should win, but the entire point of holo forge is for it to be a window of high pressure just like we saw with reaper, take away either core traitline and the sustain/damage ratio of holo becomes terrible. If you avoid key skills (Forge 3, Forge 5, elite) then it's east to see that holo doesn't really have that many tricks up it's sleeve. It's a high risk high reward type of play which I am in favour of, even in it's current tanky state. Again compare it to Defense Spellbreaker.

I should mention I am maining Ele, so I have a different view on what needs balancing than - for example - Spellbreaker. :wink: I would rather see both brought down (Spellbreaker first) than Ele buffed to their levels.

Cookie for you, way to few ele mains around! :)

I don't know, once you get to terms with being squishier and how ele is supposed to be hazing enemies with frequent bursts, then the matchups aren't too bad. I for one love fighting warriors because it's a clean cut fight I can win as long as I don't proc their tether.

I also realized what you run matters alot, I used to run with only 1 stunbreak and everything was hardmode, with tempest f.ex they are soo abundant with overloads. Another issue arose with the change to Arcane Fury where necro's can really get value from their corrupts constantly, which makes that matchup trickier. Also core guard before the nerf with their blocks and AoE, however not as bad as of right now.

I actually believe all matchups to be fair, but I am a glasscannon so I expect to have little defence, but the burst is magnificent meaning I can swing the fight against anything except firebrands and scrappers.

Also as an ele I've come to realise 90% of what decides the fights are what you do during dodges, as you need to think ahead constantly - which is why I enjoy playing it, however already there other professions have an easier time without even counting in power-differences.

Sounds like we should share those cookies. :wink:

Yeah, I don't believe ele is all that far behind viability. It is just that all its roles are filled better by other classes. And it's been like this since PoF (and before we were condemned to heal botting only). That's a shame, but at least we can feel unique. :tongue:

Aye, couldn't agree more =)

rng.1024 · May 19, 2019

@praqtos.9035 said:
@"rng.1024" said:I think you are right, especially given the elite uses 690,5 as weapon strength. I know for a fact is sidesteppable, however the time to do so is minimal and I doubt you can while staying close. I always create a gap as they enter forge to avoid the #4 projectiles or get crippled by the #2, see them charge their elite, then turn my character 90° and press W just as it fires to get out. Could be a movement speed thing as using Q or E to strafe is slower, I'm actually not sure.Its not, unless you can record and reproduce (I think it doesnt matter at this point, if u can make it once in 100 attempts)You have to remember the stealth doesn't regenerate the holo in any way, if you can force the heal turret beforehand they only got Heat Therapy. The resustain is an illusion caused by the low healthpool, as any heal cause alot more recovery of total health since the total is so low. The heal is on a 20 second cooldown to boot, which is a long time to do your burst inbetween. If you interrupt or destroy the turret before they can combo (or even apply poison) then you have a massive advantage.So heal from just the turret for around ~12k + out of 16k ? Your "oh its 20 seconds cd" doesnt make it look any better, its not long time since he can heal in between from therapy and vent exhaust.They reworked heal-cleanses to remove conditions first before heal , good luck I guess?He will blast the turret himself way before you can destroy it, its not 2k health like the mesmer clonesIn my experience most holosmiths are of the type "jump in and hit all buttons, leap out and heal" meaning if you mitigate their initial burst they will want to save their heal until next they enter forge, so it's best to pressure them here getting them low and make them spend it, then burst next when they forge and don't have it available.PF is too spammy, most of this skill are must to dodge and PF is not the only thign you want to dodge.I agree with KrHome that forge should have higher cooldowns on every skill.Why don't you think holo stealth is fine though? You don't provide cap contribution under it, it has a cast time, and you get revealed when attacking. We have reveal skills available, it needs to be properly thrown to hit and is on a higher cooldown than most utility skills even while traited.Its not just holo stealth,its not fine in general, the only 6s stealth duration now is on mesmer elite, pulsing stealth as scrapper gyro elite and engi gets 6s aoe stealth on 32s cd on the toolbelt(I know its duration reduced by the trait). Other stealth skills are 2-3 seconds with 30-40 seconds cooldown on them. Engi is 5s, 40s cd AoE(6s long,32s recharge traited). That is not fine. It must be either shaved to 3s or given way higher cooldown.

I can give it a go tonight no problem. How you get a 12k heal? Last I checked turret+overcharge net you barely 5k and a 3 sec water field with 1 blast, so unless you can spam 4 leaps in there you won't come near 12k. Your best bet is around 8k which is on par with alot of other skills of the same cd, unless you play something off-meta with healingpower.

As for poison I'm going to keep it short:

Fields
Cover conditions
After cleansing burst
When heal skill on cd

What other stealth skills? Come with examples and we can compare. Again I want to remind you it's 45 seconds untraited, has a cast time (unavailable if cc'ed), can be negated before it even hits and must be used on top of the engi for him to also get the benefit - that is alot of counterplay already and you want more? Even a longbow ranger has 45% more stealth from 1 skill in the same timeframe with only hunter's shot.

We cannot just willy nilly compare skills with a recharge reduction trait to skills without, then naturally 1 seems out of balance - which is the entire incentive to pick those traits. If your issue is those traits then that's an entirely different discussion from balancing holosmith.

praqtos.9035 · May 19, 2019

@rng.1024 said:
@praqtos.9035 said:
@rng.1024 said:I think you are right, especially given the elite uses 690,5 as weapon strength. I know for a fact is sidesteppable, however the time to do so is minimal and I doubt you can while staying close. I always create a gap as they enter forge to avoid the #4 projectiles or get crippled by the #2, see them charge their elite, then turn my character 90° and press W just as it fires to get out. Could be a movement speed thing as using Q or E to strafe is slower, I'm actually not sure.Its not, unless you can record and reproduce (I think it doesnt matter at this point, if u can make it once in 100 attempts)You have to remember the stealth doesn't regenerate the holo in any way, if you can force the heal turret beforehand they only got Heat Therapy. The resustain is an illusion caused by the low healthpool, as any heal cause alot more recovery of total health since the total is so low. The heal is on a 20 second cooldown to boot, which is a long time to do your burst inbetween. If you interrupt or destroy the turret before they can combo (or even apply poison) then you have a massive advantage.So heal from just the turret for around ~12k + out of 16k ? Your "oh its 20 seconds cd" doesnt make it look any better, its not long time since he can heal in between from therapy and vent exhaust.They reworked heal-cleanses to remove conditions first before heal , good luck I guess?He will blast the turret himself way before you can destroy it, its not 2k health like the mesmer clonesIn my experience most holosmiths are of the type "jump in and hit all buttons, leap out and heal" meaning if you mitigate their initial burst they will want to save their heal until next they enter forge, so it's best to pressure them here getting them low and make them spend it, then burst next when they forge and don't have it available.PF is too spammy, most of this skill are must to dodge and PF is not the only thign you want to dodge.I agree with KrHome that forge should have higher cooldowns on every skill.Why don't you think holo stealth is fine though? You don't provide cap contribution under it, it has a cast time, and you get revealed when attacking. We have reveal skills available, it needs to be properly thrown to hit and is on a higher cooldown than most utility skills even while traited.Its not just holo stealth,its not fine in general, the only 6s stealth duration now is on mesmer elite, pulsing stealth as scrapper gyro elite and engi gets 6s aoe stealth on 32s cd on the toolbelt(I know its duration reduced by the trait). Other stealth skills are 2-3 seconds with 30-40 seconds cooldown on them. Engi is 5s, 40s cd AoE(6s long,32s recharge traited). That is not fine. It must be either shaved to 3s or given way higher cooldown.

I can give it a go tonight no problem. How you get a 12k heal? Last I checked turret+overcharge net you barely 5k and a 3 sec water field with 1 blast, so unless you can spam 4 leaps in there you won't come near 12k. Your best bet is around 8k which is on par with alot of other skills of the same cd, unless you play something off-meta with healingpower.@"toxic.3648" posted so many time about it even with screenshots, he confirmed thats you can do with meta rifle build.As for poison I'm going to keep it short:

Fields
Cover conditions
After cleansing burst
When heal skill on cdWhy wont we live in a perfect world where you can interrupt his heal/destroy his turret and vomit so many conditions so he cant cleanse ... or passive conversion...What other stealth skills? Come with examples and we can compare. Again I want to remind you it's 45 seconds untraited, has a cast time (unavailable if cc'ed), can be negated before it even hits and must be used on top of the engi for him to also get the benefit - that is alot of counterplay already and you want more? Even a longbow ranger has 45% more stealth from 1 skill in the same timeframe with only hunter's shot.Ye suddenly I confused it with another elixir, not much difference tho :PTo "negate" it you must create huge projectile destruction AoE around engineer. Its hits the ground close to instant so ye, good luck having inhuman reflexes and reaction and having instant AOE projectile denial around engi.Suddenly using elixir on top of himself is a huge downside? How cute.Except ranger wont get stealth if you dont hit anything or you give stealth to someone else if its reflected ( shocking info: its way easier to reflect incoming projectile than creating projectile destruction AoE's around engineer)I wouldnt care less if stealth would be 2-3 seconds at best. Compared to other utilities that gives AoE stealth for allies, this one is completely busted. Shadow refuge is 60 seconds cooldown,once you leave the area you are revealed. To get veil stealth,72 seconds cooldown, for two seconds at least you have to cross the line. They have MASSIVELY longer cooldown, both of them have a cast time, both of them have way more counter play than thow elixir, thats excuse "it must be on top of the engineer to get stealth" seems to be a joke compared to them(elixir that hitting the ground close to instant, lol)Stealths skills you can find here
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth
. If you are interested of courseWe cannot just willy nilly compare skills with a recharge reduction trait to skills without, then naturally 1 seems out of balance - which is the entire incentive to pick those traits. If your issue is those traits then that's an entirely different discussion from balancing holosmith.You are wrong, these traits not what is my issue :)

Curennos.9307 · May 19, 2019

Highest number I've gotten for healing turret is 9k, maybe 10k (depending - I sometimes play prot holo, which gets an extra chunk of healing power). This does assume, though, that the holo is using the blast + a leap....though I don't find this to be a too unlikely scenario, considering forge#2 exists and rifle#5 can be used after to kite, but take that how you will. Also, most people will include the regen given by HT - imo, primarily because holo actually have enough survivability that the regen actually means something, and becomes not-insignificant because it'll end up stacked with heat therapy and whatever small healing the holo gets from Alchemy. Whereas, say, on a squishier class the value of regen rounds down to zero because the sustain setup is entirely different/won't be in combat long enough for it to make a difference/etc.

The closest point of comparison I've found is DE's Malicious Restoration, which is on a 30 second CD , heals for ~7.2k, and transfers 3 conditions (versus HT's cleanse). I haven't seen anyone ever use Malicious Restoration.

Anyway. Is Healing Turret OP? Maybe...maybe not. It's easy to mistake HT as the issue, imo, which is totally understandable considering what holosmith brings to the table. But HT has been there for ages and hasn't really been a problem (maybe it deserves a minor shave, maybe water fields could use a buff, but I digress).

I still maintain the issue is with heat therapy. Scrapper just got its Rapid Regeneration massacred with a 40%(?) decrease. Used to be around 660 HPS.Warr's healing signet has been repeatedly nerfed. Holosmith essentially has new Rapid regen or signet as an auto-acquire trait with the potential to get double the value (I went from ~300 health per tick to ~600 per tick if I let it drain a little longer).

See what can be done about heat therapy first, THEN see if HT remains an issue. Ofc I'm all for the removal of HT, but I'm probably biased - someone out there suggested they prevent Heat Therapy from stacking as high (capping it at 5 stacks or something, idk). That sounds like a good place to start.

But these massive healing numbers people are attributing to healing turret are utterly ridiculous.

Pengu.7481 · May 19, 2019

@Curennos.9307 said:Highest number I've gotten for healing turret is 9k, maybe 10k (depending - I sometimes play prot holo, which gets an extra chunk of healing power). This does assume, though, that the holo is using the blast + a leap....though I don't find this to be a too unlikely scenario, considering forge#2 exists and rifle#5 can be used after to kite, but take that how you will. Also, most people will include the regen given by HT - imo, primarily because holo actually have enough survivability that the regen actually means something, and becomes not-insignificant because it'll end up stacked with heat therapy and whatever small healing the holo gets from Alchemy. Whereas, say, on a squishier class the value of regen rounds down to zero because the sustain setup is entirely different/won't be in combat long enough for it to make a difference/etc.
The closest point of comparison I've found is DE's Malicious Restoration, which is on a 30 second CD , heals for ~7.2k, and transfers 3 conditions (versus HT's cleanse). I haven't seen anyone ever use Malicious Restoration.
Anyway. Is Healing Turret OP? Maybe...maybe not. It's easy to mistake HT as the issue, imo, which is totally understandable considering what holosmith brings to the table. But HT has been there for ages and hasn't really been a problem (maybe it deserves a minor shave, maybe water fields could use a buff, but I digress).
I still maintain the issue is with heat therapy. Scrapper just got its Rapid Regeneration massacred with a 40%(?) decrease. Used to be around 660 HPS.Warr's healing signet has been repeatedly nerfed. Holosmith essentially has new Rapid regen or signet as an auto-acquire trait with the potential to get double the value (I went from ~300 health per tick to ~600 per tick if I let it drain a little longer).
See what can be done about heat therapy first, THEN see if HT remains an issue. Ofc I'm all for the removal of HT, but I'm probably biased - someone out there suggested they prevent Heat Therapy from stacking as high (capping it at 5 stacks or something, idk). That sounds like a good place to start.
But these massive healing numbers people are attributing to healing turret are utterly ridiculous.
@"rng.1024" said:How you get a 12k heal? Last I checked turret+overcharge net you barely 5k and a 3 sec water field with 1 blast, so unless you can spam 4 leaps in there you won't come near 12k. Your best bet is around 8k which is on par with alot of other skills of the same cd, unless you play something off-meta with healingpower.

HT + blast turret, rifle 5/holo 5 + holo leap - HT toolbelt + holo leap . i waited out the regen and thats the number u end up with. havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy and 370 healing tops from compounding chemicals. this is done on elixir build demo amulet / herald runes (no offmeta healing build like u guys suggest)srsly if u guys are playing holo this isnt news to uso pls stop acting like this isnt a thing

sure u can make the argument that holo5/rifle 5 isnt always available for a healing combo but lets be honest here. 1500 less heal dosnt rly matter at this point

Curennos.9307 · May 19, 2019

So your beef is with....Regenerating Mists?

! 'Toolbelt skills are part of core engineer that, in addition to kits (which are weak), help balance out the lack of a weapon swap'. If your immediate thought is 'But forge mode negates that trade off' or anything close to that, you're mistaking HT and core engi being useful for holosmith being overpowered.

Pengu.7481 · May 19, 2019

@Curennos.9307 said:So your beef is with....Regenerating Mists?
! 'Toolbelt skills are part of core engineer that, in addition to kits (which are weak), help balance out the lack of a weapon swap'. If your immediate thought is 'But forge mode negates that trade off' or anything close to that, you're mistaking HT and core engi being useful for holosmith being overpowered.

dud i dont understand what ure trying to say :)

Curennos.9307 · May 19, 2019

@toxic.3648 said:
@Curennos.9307 said:So your beef is with....Regenerating Mists?
! 'Toolbelt skills are part of core engineer that, in addition to kits (which are weak), help balance out the lack of a weapon swap'. If your immediate thought is 'But forge mode negates that trade off' or anything close to that, you're mistaking HT and core engi being useful for holosmith being overpowered.

dud i dont understand what ure trying to say :)

People say 'holosmith is OP' and then list a bunch of things that core has had since ever.

Or 'holosmith healing is op, healing turret is OP' and then include the toolbelt skill it's had for ages in the total healing

Or 'healing turret gives a ton of healing' and then include the toolbelt skill + 1-2 other skills in total healing (by that logic every engi utility skill is OP because it gives a toolbelt skill...but they're not, obviously, because of the whole engi vs weapon swap thing)

Or 'holosmith is OP, look at how healing turret's healing is higher than everything else', but it gives only a 'ton' of healing and no 1) evade (Withdraw) 2) FULL cleanse (Consume Condi) 3) constant, medium level sustain or a trade for condi immunity (warr signet, res)....etc, etc. Heck, even just thief's Withdraw. If we look at potential damage negated per heal skill, turret is underpowered

But if you want to treat Turret as OP because of how every other part of engi interacts with it and adds up, then you've gotta do the same thing for everything you're comparing it to to see if it's OP (aka other classes), and in the grand scheme of things it's actually pretty balanced.

And then if it becomes 'look at how strong holosmith is - here's an example of how much healing turret provides', and then list several things in photon forge, well...xD It's important to differentiate between 'holosmith' and 'things holosmith uses', so to speak.

Healing Turret is fine. Forge 5's blast, the extremely low cooldown on forge 2 (and thus the easy leaps), on the other hand...

praqtos.9035 · May 19, 2019

@Curennos.9307 said:People say 'holosmith is OP' and then list a bunch of things that core has had since everCant stop laughing because mesmer core traits and weapons are exact the same, did it stop them from being over-nerfed?

Pengu.7481 · May 19, 2019

@Curennos.9307 said:
@toxic.3648 said:
@Curennos.9307 said:So your beef is with....Regenerating Mists?
! 'Toolbelt skills are part of core engineer that, in addition to kits (which are weak), help balance out the lack of a weapon swap'. If your immediate thought is 'But forge mode negates that trade off' or anything close to that, you're mistaking HT and core engi being useful for holosmith being overpowered.

dud i dont understand what ure trying to say :)

People say 'holosmith is OP' and then list a bunch of things that core has had since ever.

Or 'holosmith healing is op, healing turret is OP' and then include the toolbelt skill it's had for ages in the total healing

Or 'healing turret gives a ton of healing' and then include the toolbelt skill + 1-2 other skills in total healing (by that logic every engi utility skill is OP because it gives a toolbelt skill...but they're not, obviously, because of the whole engi vs weapon swap thing)

Or 'holosmith is OP, look at how healing turret's healing is higher than everything else', but it gives only a 'ton' of healing and no 1) evade (Withdraw) 2) FULL cleanse (Consume Condi) 3) constant, medium level sustain or a trade for condi immunity (warr signet, res)....etc, etc. Heck, even just thief's Withdraw. If we look at potential damage negated per heal skill, turret is underpowered

But if you want to treat Turret as OP because of how every other part of engi interacts with it and adds up, then you've gotta do the same thing for everything you're comparing it to to see if it's OP (aka other classes), and in the grand scheme of things it's actually pretty balanced.

And then if it becomes 'look at how strong holosmith is - here's an example of how much healing turret provides', and then list several things in photon forge, well...xD It's important to differentiate between 'holosmith' and 'things holosmith uses', so to speak.

Healing Turret is fine. Forge 5's blast, the extremely low cooldown on forge 2 (and thus the easy leaps), on the other hand...

i can agree that healing turret is not op on core engi. mostly cuz core engi isnt viable unless ure willing to rly learn kit rotations for dmg / healing for pvp .

slap on photon forge and the heat therapy and dumbed down kit rotation for dmg / healing and u will see a different picture. all holo did was make core engi easier to combo with fields due to leaps / blast and just general viability since now u have a strong kit to actually pressure ppl without playing piano to do so.

why wouldnt u use toolbelt + leap for 2.5k extra heal? it would be like core guardian ignoring using f2 for heal/cleansewhen i say healing turret i include the toolbelt skill always since it comes with healing turret by default.

also i dont propose nerfing healing turret alot. a mild shave would be good. someone once suggested removing the regen since none of the other turrets comes with a boon unless u spec for it and i can agree with that.only provided the pics since holo 'mains' said it wasnt possible to get 12k healing out of it unless u were going for offmeta healing build which is simply not true

so if u want to nerf holo healing go after heat therapy as i already mentioned . that way u wont touch core and while were at it i would like some buffs/rework for firearms/explosives since those are lacking when it comes to pvp. want some more variations for core engi, all kits (except for elixir gun) are outdated in the current powercrept meta to more or less extent. so those could use some love too.

Curennos.9307 · May 19, 2019

@toxic.3648 said:
@Curennos.9307 said:
@toxic.3648 said:
@Curennos.9307 said:So your beef is with....Regenerating Mists?
! 'Toolbelt skills are part of core engineer that, in addition to kits (which are weak), help balance out the lack of a weapon swap'. If your immediate thought is 'But forge mode negates that trade off' or anything close to that, you're mistaking HT and core engi being useful for holosmith being overpowered.