Virt's tradeoffs

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

So I'm making this thread on behalf of someone, this takes beta into account. Somethings might be solved on release or not.

We lose:
- Distortion
- IP
- Clones (as a survival tool)
- Tracking shatters
- Shatters' damage, since 3 clones outdamage 5 blades
- Instant shatters
- No face requirement shatters
- Non reflectable shatters
- Stealth (everything reveals you if you spec the top traits, middle row middle trait, dagger 3)

We win:
- 1200 range shatters
- Blades don't reset on kill/out of combat
- Channeling block that deals (awful) damage

Seems to me we're giving up way more than we're receiving.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735
Added block

[Infusion.7149]

You forgot the leap on sword gets made buggy on terrain but grants more mobility (similar to mirage sword ambush).
 

The largest problem for me as far as virtuoso goes is the reliance on projectiles (includes the shatters which also have cast times on virtuoso). If you play it in WVW it's strictly worse than chrono or core mesmer in the sense that the shatters become more or less a liability in large scale.

In small scale because of the cast times and flashy animations it is also quite obvious when to dodge. I watched two virtuosos go at it in the Armistice Bastion dueling arena and it was the equivalent of two warriors hitting each other at range.

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

I mean you still technically have distortion on Blade Renewal.... but Mesmer always have blink and signet of midnight/ signet of illusions slotted so good luck with condis?
 

[Xaylin.1860]

If you list Distortion, you should probably also list the block on gain plus also list the benfit of the projectiles not getting stuck on obstacles that often. 😜 We also don't lose Stealth. That's just biased and not true unless you specifically pick certain traits.

 

However, in the end, we indeed only gain a new resource system. 1200 isn't new.

[hash.8462]

Well, there are situations where clones got instantly destroyed so you can't use them at all.

[AXLIB.8425]

1 hour ago, hash.8462 said:

Well, there are situations where clones got instantly destroyed so you can't use them at all.

Well, those are also the situations where projectile get reflected all the time so they turn around and kill you and your teammates

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Easy pick: don't buy EoD. Paying for a nerf is a bit too much as far as I'm concerned.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

4 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

If you list Distortion, you should probably also list the block on gain plus also list the benfit of the projectiles not getting stuck on obstacles that often. 😜 We also don't lose Stealth. That's just biased and not true unless you specifically pick certain traits.

 

However, in the end, we indeed only gain a new resource system. 1200 isn't new.

Could list block but distortion is so superior to channeling block is not even funny.

 

You lose stealth if you pick up the top grandmaster since you shot a blade you get revealed or if you use f4 while in melee range.

[Xaylin.1860]

Just now, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Could list block but distortion is so superior to channeling block is not even funny.

 

You lose stealth if you pick up the top grandmaster since you shot a blade you get revealed or if you use f4 while in melee range.

I know... I still think, while I agree that Virtuoso isn't great atm, that your assessment is very skewed in favor of your point of view. If you want to make a comparison, be fair and as objective as possible. Otherwise, why compare them to begin with?

 

The GM is a choice. Don't pick it if you're going for stealth. It's like saying Mirage is bad  because Dune Cloak can unstealth you.

[OriOri.8724]

4 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I know... I still think, while I agree that Virtuoso isn't great atm, that your assessment is very skewed in favor of your point of view. If you want to make a comparison, be fair and as objective as possible. Otherwise, why compare them to begin with?

 

The GM is a choice. Don't pick it if you're going for stealth. It's like saying Mirage is bad  because Dune Cloak can unstealth you.

Virtuoso doesn't "gain" block though, core mesmer already has blocking skills on 2 weapons, so f4 doesn't bring anything new. If you want to be as objective as possible, then don't add false "gains" to the comparison.

[Xaylin.1860]

I fail to see how it is a false gain just because it isn't new to the class overall. With that logic FB would be utter trash considering it didn't bring anything actually new to the class. Aside from Slow maybe. And a Daze. Haha.

 

Sure, the block is clearly worse than Distortion. Still, it is not nothing and treating it as such is being dramatic. It still works in any scenario without unblockables. Additionally, it also has an offensive aspect. But maybe that's bad because... it removes stealth as well? In the end, people also complain about CS, I guess. Even though it's probably one of the most powerful skills in the game.

 

I won't say Virtuoso is fine. It's clearly not. I just don't see the point in pitty parties. Even less so when facts are conveniently neglected or trivialized just because they don't fit some agenda. That won't get us anywhere. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

7 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I know... I still think, while I agree that Virtuoso isn't great atm, that your assessment is very skewed in favor of your point of view. If you want to make a comparison, be fair and as objective as possible. Otherwise, why compare them to begin with?

 

The GM is a choice. Don't pick it if you're going for stealth. It's like saying Mirage is bad  because Dune Cloak can unstealth you.

Dune Cloak as always trash, virt's top trait is decent except you can't trait it because it will kill you.

 

 

2 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I fail to see how it is a false gain just because it isn't new to the class overall. With that logic FB would be utter trash considering it didn't bring anything actually new to the class. Aside from Slow maybe. And a Daze. Haha.

 

Sure, the block is clearly worse than Distortion. Still, it is not nothing and treating it as such is being dramatic. It still works in any scenario without unblockables. Additionally, it also has an offensive aspect. But maybe that's bad because... it removes stealth as well? In the end, people also complain about CS, I guess. Even though it's probably one of the most powerful skills in the game.

 

I won't say Virtuoso is fine. It's clearly not. I just don't see the point in pitty parties. Even less so when facts are conveniently neglected or trivialized just because they don't fit some agenda. That won't get us anywhere. 

The block would be worse if you could cast while blocking, as it stands it is much worse.
The offensive aspect is trash, it deals what? 200 damage?

I said nothing untrue on the opening post.
There was nothing neglected. You suggested we gain block, I said block is way worse than what we lost.
As for CS there's no comparison.

[ASP.8093]

 

On 8/23/2021 at 2:08 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

- Stealth (everything reveals you if you spec the top traits)

Can you elaborate on this one a bit? (I don't think you're wrong, I just want to see a more step-by-step explanation of the mechanical interactions from someone who spent more time on it in beta than I did.)

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

5 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

 

Can you elaborate on this one a bit? (I don't think you're wrong, I just want to see a more step-by-step explanation of the mechanical interactions from someone who spent more time on it in beta than I did.)

Top GM trait fires a blade if you dodge an attack or block.
So if you're stealthed and need to dodge or f4 you're revealed.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[ASP.8093]

1 minute ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Top GM trait fires a blade if you dodge an attack or block.
So if you're stealthed and need to dodge or f4 you're revealed.

Ah, I get it, I thought you were saying all the Aegis-y traits cause that, too. (Rather than just comboing with Psychic Riposte to make the problem worse.)

 

Incidentally, the Psychic Riposte blade also seems to have embarrassingly low damage in WvW/SPvP.

[Levetty.1279]

12 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I fail to see how it is a false gain just because it isn't new to the class overall. With that logic FB would be utter trash considering it didn't bring anything actually new to the class. Aside from Slow maybe. And a Daze. Haha.

 

Sure, the block is clearly worse than Distortion. Still, it is not nothing and treating it as such is being dramatic. It still works in any scenario without unblockables. Additionally, it also has an offensive aspect. But maybe that's bad because... it removes stealth as well? In the end, people also complain about CS, I guess. Even though it's probably one of the most powerful skills in the game.

 

I won't say Virtuoso is fine. It's clearly not. I just don't see the point in pitty parties. Even less so when facts are conveniently neglected or trivialized just because they don't fit some agenda. That won't get us anywhere. 

As the only person who like the new F4 in theory, the skill itself is utterly trash. The block lasts half a second, less then the time where your character is channeling and the damage is nothing.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Levetty.1279

[Xaylin.1860]

That's a numbers thing, though, isn't it? It is supposed to last longer and the damage can be buffed. It's not like the functionality was worthless although Distortion is more flexible.

 

I simply don't feel that "We lose Distortion" is a fair assessment of the actual situation with F4 because it doesn't take the other side into account. If we want to discuss trade offs and point ANet into a direction on how to improve Virtuoso, this just won't do. At least I don't think devs would buy into that if they even read this thread.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

That's a numbers thing, though, isn't it? It is supposed to last longer and the damage can be buffed. It's not like the functionality was worthless although Distortion is more flexible.

 

I simply don't feel that "We lose Distortion" is a fair assessment of the actual situation with F4 because it doesn't take the other side into account. If we want to discuss trade offs and point ANet into a direction on how to improve Virtuoso, this just won't do. At least I don't think devs would buy into that if they even read this thread.

Added block.
It's not like it changes anything. Virt while is fun to play, is unplayable  garbage.

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

I think a mechanic-by-mechanic comparison misses the point: 

• The playstyle of the Virtuoso is much more  accessible and much less demanding than Chrono or Mirage, and I expect is aimed more at new and non-mes players.
• I also expect Virtuoso would only win over many current mes players if Virtuoso was superior to their current Chrono or Mirage choice. But that would almost certainly imply some kind of power creep.

 

I was concerned about projectiles in wvw, but the more I think about it, this is something rangers, DHs, etc., have to deal with. It may be a novel concern for mes players but its hardly a novel issue in wvw.

 

Virtuoso still needs work (trait synergies, visual tonedown, etc.), but I think Virtuoso will be quite successful for new players. 

[Nezekan.2671]

1 hour ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

I think a mechanic-by-mechanic comparison misses the point: 

• The playstyle of the Virtuoso is much more  accessible and much less demanding than Chrono or Mirage, and I expect is aimed more at new and non-mes players.
• I also expect Virtuoso would only win over many current mes players if Virtuoso was superior to their current Chrono or Mirage choice. But that would almost certainly imply some kind of power creep.

 

I was concerned about projectiles in wvw, but the more I think about it, this is something rangers, DHs, etc., have to deal with. It may be a novel concern for mes players but its hardly a novel issue in wvw.

 

Virtuoso still needs work (trait synergies, visual tonedown, etc.), but I think Virtuoso will be quite successful for new players. 

Its not a power creep. Its fine for e-specs to break the rules of the class, but when you lose so much synergy with core mesmer and gain nothing in return, then it stinks. Especs sitll need to pick two core traitlines, and Virtuoso has no synergy with any of them.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Nezekan.2671

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

I think a mechanic-by-mechanic comparison misses the point: 

• The playstyle of the Virtuoso is much more  accessible and much less demanding than Chrono or Mirage, and I expect is aimed more at new and non-mes players.
• I also expect Virtuoso would only win over many current mes players if Virtuoso was superior to their current Chrono or Mirage choice. But that would almost certainly imply some kind of power creep.

 

I was concerned about projectiles in wvw, but the more I think about it, this is something rangers, DHs, etc., have to deal with. It may be a novel concern for mes players but its hardly a novel issue in wvw.

 

Virtuoso still needs work (trait synergies, visual tonedown, etc.), but I think Virtuoso will be quite successful for new players. 

You're not the only one saying it but I don't get the virt is more accessible part. If anything virt is more demanding since sustain  sucks kitten, it's way easier to survive as a chrono and even easier with mirage.
I mean yes you lose the tactical aspect of clones, but you've to play way better in order to survive imo.

Virt doesn't need to be superior to chrono or mirage, it needs to be on equal foot. Currently it's even inferior to core.

As for projectiles, both rangers and DH's have ways to deal with projectile hate, rangers have traits (SB) and skills to bypass block, and melee weapons, pets skills and so on, DH's have a second weaponset, traps, F1. Of course I'm talking about small scale. No one gives a kitten about zerg, all you need there is press 1 anyway.
Virt has nothing, everything is built upon is a projectile.
 

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

45 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Its not a power creep. Its fine for e-specs to break the rules of the class, but when you lose so much synergy with core mesmer and gain nothing in return, then it stinks. Especs sitll need to pick two core traitlines, and Virtuoso has no synergy with any of them.

 

I disagree that "Especs sitll need to pick two core traitlines, and Virtuoso has no synergy with any of them." It certainly has synergies with some traits, but is not where it should be, as  I already noted in my post "Virtuoso still needs work (trait synergies, visual tonedown, etc.)".

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

25 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You're not the only one saying it but I don't get the virt is more accessible part. If anything virt is more demanding since sustain  sucks kitten, it's way easier to survive as a chrono and even easier with mirage.
I mean yes you lose the tactical aspect of clones, but you've to play way better in order to survive imo.

Virt doesn't need to be superior to chrono or mirage, it needs to be on equal foot. Currently it's even inferior to core.

As for projectiles, both rangers and DH's have ways to deal with projectile hate, rangers have traits (SB) and skills to bypass block, and melee weapons, pets skills and so on, DH's have a second weaponset, traps, F1. Of course I'm talking about small scale. No one gives a kitten about zerg, all you need there is press 1 anyway.
Virt has nothing, everything is built upon is a projectile.
 

 

I agree sustain needs improvement, and I am hoping that comes in the form of better synergy with the Inspiration line. Dom/Duel/Virtuoso with no toughness is very glassy. Running as Dom/Chaos/Virtuoso and using the aegis traits in Virt and Illusionary Defense in Chaos seemed to help considerably. In my feedback for Anet, I said I felt that Virtuoso needed -either- better mobility -or- better sustain; right now, its waffling in the middle and does not excel adequately at either.  

[Nezekan.2671]

34 minutes ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

 

I disagree that "Especs sitll need to pick two core traitlines, and Virtuoso has no synergy with any of them." It certainly has synergies with some traits, but is not where it should be, as  I already noted in my post "Virtuoso still needs work (trait synergies, visual tonedown, etc.)".

I think the best example is the trait in dueling that makes clone crits to apply bleeding. Now a clone will constantly attack until killed or shattered, but even if we make blade criticals to apply bleeding (atm its bugged and doesn't even do that, I am not even sure its suppose to), its only one application since you get the blade and you use it and its done. A clone can apply infinite stacks of bleeding that does the same damage. This is a very important trait that won't ever work with Virtuoso, unless something drastic is done to the core Mesmer.

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

 

I agree sustain needs improvement, and I am hoping that comes in the form of better synergy with the Inspiration line. Dom/Duel/Virtuoso with no toughness is very glassy. Running as Dom/Chaos/Virtuoso and using the aegis traits in Virt and Illusionary Defense in Chaos seemed to help considerably. In my feedback for Anet, I said I felt that Virtuoso needed -either- better mobility -or- better sustain; right now, its waffling in the middle and does not excel adequately at either.  

The problem with running chaos virt is that you give up a ton of damage.
I agree - it needs either more mobility or sustain.