So I have a question...

[Srolo.5208]

Why not make clones/phantasms do damage when they're killed? Hell, make it a trait if need be. Now obviously I don't think they should be doing full 3x illusion F1 shatter damage when each dies, but why not have it so that if somebody kills an illusion they still "shatter" and do damage in the normal AoE around them without providing any of the benefits (boons/condis etc) that the shatter skills do? Each illusion being killed does the equivalent damage, and only the damage, of a 1 illusion F1 shatter. Just a simple small AoE bang when they're killed. I don't know if this would solve any problems or even be worthwhile in WvW but I figured I'd throw this out there and see what others think.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

21 minutes ago, Srolo.5208 said:

Why not make clones/phantasms do damage when they're killed? Hell, make it a trait if need be. Now obviously I don't think they should be doing full 3x illusion F1 shatter damage when each dies, but why not have it so that if somebody kills an illusion they still "shatter" and do damage in the normal AoE around them without providing any of the benefits (boons/condis etc) that the shatter skills do? Each illusion being killed does the equivalent damage, and only the damage, of a 1 illusion F1 shatter. Just a simple small AoE bang when they're killed. I don't know if this would solve any problems or even be worthwhile in WvW but I figured I'd throw this out there and see what others think.

There were several traits that did damage and conditions when clones were killed, they all got deleted.
ANerf doesn't want them.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[darwins ghost.7961]

You speak of the glory days of condi mesmer. We are not getting that back again, just like any traits to enhance glamour skills are gone forever.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

My guess is people who can't spot the real mesmer got pissy when every time they killed a clone they got hit in the face for it, so they're not bringing it back.

[Salt Mode.3780]

31 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

My guess is people who can't spot the real mesmer got pissy when every time they killed a clone they got hit in the face for it, so they're not bringing it back.

That is also a reason why Virtuoso is cloneless kek.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Alot of the reason is when Heart of Thorns debuted, the devs spent alot of time before and after the release nerfing Core classes to make the Elite Specs more attractive, in order to sell the expansion. Mesmer was one of the classes hit the hardest by this, as they really wanted to push Chronomancer by any means.

 

They did this again with Path of Fire, but about a year or so after release started to realise how powercrept everything had become and that they'd made a massive mistake. They have yet to go back and fix it, though.

 

So basically there's a ton of stuff that got deleted from Core classes that we'll likely never see again.

 

Community myths mostly revolve around it being because of how frustrating the Mesmer was in PvP/WvW, however there's no evidence to support this. Most of the mechanics that made it frustrating (like stealth), never really got touched, only the otherwise useful stuff.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Alot of the reason is when Heart of Thorns debuted, the devs spent alot of time before and after the release nerfing Core classes to make the Elite Specs more attractive, in order to sell the expansion. Mesmer was one of the classes hit the hardest by this, as they really wanted to push Chronomancer by any means.

 

They did this again with Path of Fire, but about a year or so after release started to realise how powercrept everything had become and that they'd made a massive mistake. They have yet to go back and fix it, though.

 

So basically there's a ton of stuff that got deleted from Core classes that we'll likely never see again.

 

Community myths mostly revolve around it being because of how frustrating the Mesmer was in PvP/WvW, however there's no evidence to support this. Most of the mechanics that made it frustrating (like stealth), never really got touched, only the otherwise useful stuff.

Virtuoso is no myth that they basically slapped everything mesmer haters want in fighting a mesmer.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

As many said already, virtuoso is Anets way to show which kind of mesmer they want in this game. I'll not be suprised if they ditch the clone system in every single elite spec that comes after EOD in the future expansions. The best thing mesmer players can do at this point is to stick to core, chrono and mirage after EOD is released, like a boycott. I know that I will, cuz the clone system is one of the pillar mechanics for mesmer in my oppinion, and not having our clones just makes everything worse and weird for me.

 

I miss the days when our clones made damage whenever they died. Made the mesmer so much more effective in every single way.

[Kodama.6453]

The problem anet seems to have with this kind of mechanic is that it is basically punishing counterplay.

 

The counterplay to the shatter/clone/phantasms mechanic is to destroy the illusions. Anet removed most traits and skill interactions working like this, like how they also removed the trait which makes turret deal damage and knock back when destroyed by an enemy or the damage and daze from gyros back then when they were still summons.

 

I am honestly surprised that death nova didn't get removed already, considering that it also goes by the same philosophy of "punishing counterplay"....

Edited August 26, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

3 hours ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

As many said already, virtuoso is Anets way to show which kind of mesmer they want in this game. I'll not be suprised if they ditch the clone system in every single elite spec that comes after EOD in the future expansions. The best thing mesmer players can do at this point is to stick to core, chrono and mirage after EOD is released, like a boycott. I know that I will, cuz the clone system is one of the pillar mechanics for mesmer in my oppinion, and not having our clones just makes everything worse and weird for me.

 

I miss the days when our clones made damage whenever they died. Made the mesmer so much more effective in every single way.

I like the no clone idea a lot.
And while I had fun playing virt, this was not what I and some others had in mind when we suggested, several times, a no clone spec.
Mesmer isn't about clones or phantasms, or better said, wasn't. Mesmer was all about shutting down the enemy and punishing him for whatever option he chooses.
For example you cast this spell, I rupt you, you cast another one - it fails and you take x damage. Oh you decided to stop casting you take Y damage.
The closest thing we had on this game similar to how mesmer is supposed to be to was clone death trait in which if you let clones live you'll get shatter damage and if you killed them you get damage anyway and chaotic interruption which was also deleted.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

I remember the day it was nerfed, as well as ANet's explanation was that it "promotes passive play" and they wanted to move away from it. Highly doubt they'll bring it back.

 

Gosh back then clone destruction procs cripple and random one condition out of 3x bleed/3x vuln/weakness with 2 separate traits on the same line...or confusion but that needs to dedicate into separate major trait in different line, making it unviable. It is far from the power creep we got today.

Edited August 26, 2021 by NICENIKESHOE.7128

[AshkyLicious.4729]

28 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I like the no clone idea a lot.
And while I had fun playing virt, this was not what I and some others had in mind when we suggested, several times, a no clone spec.
Mesmer isn't about clones or phantasms, or better said, wasn't. Mesmer was all about shutting down the enemy and punishing him for whatever option he chooses.
For example you cast this spell, I rupt you, you cast another one - it fails and you take x damage. Oh you decided to stop casting you take Y damage.
The closest thing we had on this game similar to how mesmer is supposed to be to was clone death trait in which if you let clones live you'll get shatter damage and if you killed them you get damage anyway and chaotic interruption which was also deleted.

 

Yeah mesmer in Gw1 was perfection in every way and was my main in Gw1 aswell. I wish they could bring an elite spec that took those elements back for mesmer in gw2. I'll trade our clones for the old mesmer any day. We'll be viable not only for ourselves but even to our groups on a whole other level.

 

I was mainly comparing virtuoso to what mesmer is in Gw2, and while I understand that people wants to get rid of the clones since they can be a real pain to maintane, I think that virt doesnt compensate for us loosing our clones. It just feels like something is missing and it's much harder to stay alive and being defensive when we dont have our clones.

[Xaylin.1860]

I don't get people arguing that Clones provide survivability and trickery... Trickery only counts in PvP/WvW where Clones can be popped like bubbles. In PvE it basically only matter in solo play.

 

Now, I do like Clones myself. But since Virtuoso was showcased, I do feel that people heavily oversell the value. Personally, I just don't see it (anymore).

 

However, it got me thinking how to bring back some of that trickery and annoyance back to (base) Mesmer. Which brought me to "Breaks Enemy target" that got introduced with Mirage. Why not add more of that to at least "simulate" that Clones confuse the opponents? Sure, it would decrease the value of some skills that already got that effect but I would love it so much for PvP.

 

Contenders:

- Sword #4

- Scepter #2

- Staff #2

- Deceptive Evasion 😈

Edited August 26, 2021 by Xaylin.1860

[Levetty.1279]

I'm not really sure how people can play Mesmer and not see the advantages clones bring. 

[AshkyLicious.4729]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

I'm not really sure how people can play Mesmer and not see the advantages clones bring. 

 

Agree 100%! They do alot if you use them and manage them in the right way and they can make you quite powerful in every single way, specially playing as Mirage with IH and ambushes.

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

I'm not really sure how people can play Mesmer and not see the advantages clones bring. 

Thats because most people want the GW1 mesmer that is cloneless and or using mesmer class to paint whatever they want on it because the devs have no real clear idea what they want to do with this class.

[Xaylin.1860]

16 hours ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

 

Agree 100%! They do alot if you use them and manage them in the right way and they can make you quite powerful in every single way, specially playing as Mirage with IH and ambushes.

I was solely talking about Clones as distraction and a resource, not as damage vehicle. 

[Silvey.4287]

14 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Thats because most people want the GW1 mesmer that is cloneless and or using mesmer class to paint whatever they want on it because the devs have no real clear idea what they want to do with this class.

I think virt just doesnt go far enough for a cloneless mesmer, could of added a shroud and made the shatters act like scourge or made each shatter a different weapon like firebrand/engie kits, could of made a madness based psuedo shatter like warrior berserker. Theres so many ways it could have been done but its just no illusion combo point ranged shatter.