Why does Weaver do so little damage relative to the effort required?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

6 hours ago, Loke.1429 said:

Video or it didnt happen. Pull of that level of self buffing / debuffing in wvw on a build that can also dps down targets? Why yes of course it is 25 of everything, permanent, all the time, etc. I am calling your BS.

I can't comment on PVE, since I avoid it.

WvW centered balance patch please!

You going to pay me to make a custom video for your enjoyment?  My time is valuable, after all.  I'm not sure it would do any good, because you've already misread my post and that isn't even a video.  I didn't say it was everything, permanent, all the time.  I said the opening rotation buffs me to 25 might, the air line gives me permanent fury, and also the air line can debuff an enemy to 25 vulnerability.

 

You didn't even ask what the build was.  You just opened with accusing me.  All of these grand claims you're denying aren't actually that grand.  You do know that the 25 vulnerability is just Fresh Air into Quantum Strike, right?  At this point I'm not sure if this is a troll post or if your adamant denial comes from a glorious lack of information.  

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

APM is high in pve, but the rotation on itself isn't really hard to learn and let margin for errors or shortcuts.

 

Obviously if you look at the numbers of skills yeah it's frightening, but in practice the key aspect is to loop Weaver's prowess + Elements of rage Buffs, then you smash weapon skills.

In short F1 > F1 > F3 > F3 for hybrid, and F1 > F1 > F4 > F4 + some F3 for pyrovortex (sword) or  grindingstones and plasma burst (dagger).

The fact DPS is diluted into so much skills lets room for some mistakes if you miss F3 once or waste 1-2sec of weave self, one second of primordial stance... As long as you're able to loop buffs, fire fields, may be fresh-air perfectly with more practice ... it is okai.

I know rotations on other classes with less skills but important skills order and precise timing if you don't want huge dps drop.

 

 

The issue isn't really rotation; but the lack of sustain and "panic" skills, which oblige you to kite often, to know mechanics and placement by heart.

On some bosses like dhumm, you can't even play because you don't have mid-range or damage mitigation to stay melee. Like in fractals with the instability "%damage per boons" or -30% HP you instant die on some attacks, while you still have 2/3 of your life with scourge because 20k Hp and -15% damage with sand shade. Is it fair ?

You're 100% reliant to supports for protection, regen, barriers etc if you want to stay alive.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Widmo.3186]

On 9/7/2021 at 8:31 PM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

On the WvW side, I think we do have higher offense than other professions.  At least while roaming/small scale.  I've been playing sword/dagger celestial weaver for an unholy amount of time to get legendary armor, and it surprises me how relentless the damage is.  Most people who fight me spend most of the fight running away, and the few who don't usually die during the genjutsu (barrier) phase.  With all of the circular AoEs there's a zone of death in close proximity around me, giving me good area control.  Other professions have one or two burst skills where the majority of their damage is located.  With weaver it is more spread out, meaning that without chill there's almost never a break in the offense.  Every 4 seconds it is another dual skill, except when I use Fresh Air to throw out 3 at once.  Most of my attacks are AoEs, which has led me to win a shocking number of 1v2 and 1v3s, and I'm not even particularly skilled at PVP.  My Earth/Fire opening rotation buffs me to 25 might, and Air gives me permanent fury, leaving me buffed to the nines with no team support.  The air line can debuff an enemy to 25 vulnerability, too.  Then, if all of that fails... I drop FGS, spin and dash like a maniac for awhile, and then all of my skills are off cooldown.  

No, and let me explain why. Ele used to have higher offense than most classes, but that was when FA was viable oneshotting people. Atm your only oneshot possibilities vs skilled person are if someone isnt paying attention to the game or if youre extremaly lucky.

What youre talking about is pretty much passive damage, you dont put AoE circles like scourge, away from your location. That "deathcircle" moves with you. Whats the difference you ask? Difference is, you mistook running away with kiting. And Weaver AoEs or sword skills in general have so low range that kiting it is even easier than kiting warrior (exception for people that actually know what theyre doing, in terms of weaver its maybe 1 in 50 players).

 FA/lr build on something else than Scepter is the most offensive option, giving away defense in most of the cases making you really, r e a l l y vulnerable as long as someone has more than 2 braincells and doesnt facetank damage. And about those boons...its not vanilla anymore, many classes can handle stacking up might and other boons almost as passively as ele does it, and just as many classes can nowadays steal those boons from you or corrupt them. 25 stacks of vulnerability is same story, its nothing, especially that it can be cleansed in notime since you dont run condi build.

Vs newbies you can win 1v2, 1v3 or even 1v5 on multiple classes, thats not a problem. Problem is, that ele received so many bad or not explained changes/nerfs that its still behind like ranger in most mechanics. What didnt change is the way you play ele, its still piano. Of course its fun, but when you see boonbeast clicking one button on 30s cd getting all boons or 6 stacks of stability meanwhile you are left with only 2 from stances, cmon, its a kittening joke.

tl;dr - you carry ele, not other way around. Used to be high risk (effort)/high reward, now what left is only risk and effort. Class is fine, but why would you play it when there are other options doing same job, but just better? [DOKI] ele here.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[Jski.6180]

I think pve and pvp are wildly different game types and to see ele dmg is "ok" in one vs another makes the class good is very short sighted. In pve its often about raw numbers BUT that dose not carry over to pvp. In pvp raw numbers only work if there is some means of dealing with dmg mitigation but due to the lack of ele a mages (mages know for being able to avoid dmg mitigation in most rpg and games) dmg mitigation must relay on other mages classes to deal with boons healing and even def over all to make the raw numbers mean any thing. If and only if you have some other class helping the ele the ele can do good dmg in pvp.

Sadly the other mages classes ele is relaying on can do dmg in there own right so the ele class in pvp becomes nothing more then an add on and an ego booster class for seeing big numbers so "i si guud @ geme." Over all toxic mind set and tricks anet is playing on the player base to hide the massive outdated effects and skill ele must deal with in pvp.

[Puck.3697]

On 9/4/2021 at 6:48 PM, Atheismo.5164 said:

Seriously, I play my Reaper and upon going into shroud and hitting #4 I can do more damage than an entire Weaver rotation requiring 8 buttons in half the time.  Hell I'm pretty sure my shroud auto attacks with permanent free quickness does about as much as pianoing my way through half a dozen attunement swaps.  And all this with a second healthbar. 

 

Why does anyone play Weaver?  Is it just the cool factor?

 

Something's going wrong if that's true.. given reaper DPS is lower then Weavers realistically not to say Weavers DPS is good enough. 

 

Weaver is played because weaver is fun. The challenge is accepted because players like the challenge. 

 

Weaver isn't that hard to play excluding dagger Condi weaver realistically. It just dies alot faster which means you have to actually play the mechanics of a raid better. 

 

But realistically that's a problem in itself 

 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

On 9/9/2021 at 7:01 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

You going to pay me to make a custom video for your enjoyment?  My time is valuable, after all.  I'm not sure it would do any good, because you've already misread my post and that isn't even a video.  I didn't say it was everything, permanent, all the time.  I said the opening rotation buffs me to 25 might, the air line gives me permanent fury, and also the air line can debuff an enemy to 25 vulnerability.

 

You didn't even ask what the build was.  You just opened with accusing me.  All of these grand claims you're denying aren't actually that grand.  You do know that the 25 vulnerability is just Fresh Air into Quantum Strike, right?  At this point I'm not sure if this is a troll post or if your adamant denial comes from a glorious lack of information.  

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAwilZw8YSsI2JOWLpvMA-z1IY1oh/MSQBkpEQyXgA6B-w 
Your build probably. Considering that you wrote that you get to 25 might easily and also that Air gives you perma fury, you need to have some Auras spam to do that, since the Raging Storm cannot provide 100% uptime on it unless invested into Concentration as well. Gonna test it someday, but it looks like it'll have problems against anything that can output conditions.

[SeTect.5918]

15 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAwilZw8YSsI2JOWLpvMA-z1IY1oh/MSQBkpEQyXgA6B-w 
Your build probably. Considering that you wrote that you get to 25 might easily and also that Air gives you perma fury, you need to have some Auras spam to do that, since the Raging Storm cannot provide 100% uptime on it unless invested into Concentration as well. Gonna test it someday, but it looks like it'll have problems against anything that can output conditions.

I dont get this point tbh:

On 9/9/2021 at 7:01 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

and also the air line can debuff an enemy to 25 vulnerability.

If you can stack 25 vuln stacks on a Player in pvp or wvw, the enemy is easily bad or has a build without good condi cleanse, which shouldn't be the case. 

I never saw 25 stacks of vulnerability on me or any of my friends because every build with a bit of condi cleanse makes it nearly impossible. 

But i trust u obv that u can win 1v2 or 1v3 sometimes or often. 

90% of players tp away anyway when u wanna 2v1 it. I dont and thats why i also often win this. Condi Herald here, i got massive nerfs in pvp and wvw on may 11. But its playable and when a class is at Least playable, theres always a Chance that u can win a 1v2 or 1v3. 

So i agree with u. Fresh air weaver is pretty strong or at least fair in wvw. 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

You forget primordial stance, or quantum strikes.

I play a d/d build in wvw that can cap 25 mights during the fight and apply 25 vulnerability in 2-3sec without Fire traitlane nor air. Nothing special with runes and sigils, and combos; nor the fact enemies are "bad".

Edited September 10, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Lazze.9870]

Well, the other side of the argument is that you're comparing it to the hands down easiest and biggest wheelchair class in the entire game.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Boy I am popular today.  

On 9/9/2021 at 1:19 AM, Widmo.3186 said:

 

No, and let me explain why. Ele used to have higher offense than most classes, but that was when FA was viable oneshotting people. Atm your only oneshot possibilities vs skilled person are if someone isnt paying attention to the game or if youre extremaly lucky.

What youre talking about is pretty much passive damage, you dont put AoE circles like scourge, away from your location. That "deathcircle" moves with you. Whats the difference you ask? Difference is, you mistook running away with kiting. And Weaver AoEs or sword skills in general have so low range that kiting it is even easier than kiting warrior (exception for people that actually know what theyre doing, in terms of weaver its maybe 1 in 50 players).

 FA/lr build on something else than Scepter is the most offensive option, giving away defense in most of the cases making you really, r e a l l y vulnerable as long as someone has more than 2 braincells and doesnt facetank damage. And about those boons...its not vanilla anymore, many classes can handle stacking up might and other boons almost as passively as ele does it, and just as many classes can nowadays steal those boons from you or corrupt them. 25 stacks of vulnerability is same story, its nothing, especially that it can be cleansed in notime since you dont run condi build.

Vs newbies you can win 1v2, 1v3 or even 1v5 on multiple classes, thats not a problem. Problem is, that ele received so many bad or not explained changes/nerfs that its still behind like ranger in most mechanics. What didnt change is the way you play ele, its still piano. Of course its fun, but when you see boonbeast clicking one button on 30s cd getting all boons or 6 stacks of stability meanwhile you are left with only 2 from stances, cmon, its a kittening joke.

tl;dr - you carry ele, not other way around. Used to be high risk (effort)/high reward, now what left is only risk and effort. Class is fine, but why would you play it when there are other options doing same job, but just better? [DOKI] ele here.

 I'm pretty sure it's the celestial stats carrying me, not the other way around.  There's two reasons I say this:  First, I'm at best mediocre at PVP.  The second is the number of straight-up brawls that I win.

When I say a straight-up brawl, I mean when two players go at it with maximum damage to try and kill each other while facetanking the hits.  Before celestial stats were buffed to include concentration and expertise, I ran a full Marshall build.  In Marshalls, I had to use hit-and-run tactics.  I didn't win many outright brawls.  But now that I'm in celestials, I win the majority of them.  Doesn't matter which profession it is I'm fighting against, I can jump in with full expectations that I'll win.  The only time I don't is if I completely space it and blow all of my cooldowns on something like the Dragonhunter's Shield or Warrior's Defiant Stance, and even then I'll still win those fights sometimes.  There's little skill involved in these fights: I just mash stances and go through the rotation, except if they haven't moved after blasting might I go into air/fire and drop pyro vortex on them.

Now for the other bits:

#1: When I say they're running away, I mean that they're kiting.  Well, trying anyway.

#2: I've played several other professions in wvw (mesmer, thief, engineer, revenant), and none of them come close to the might + vulnerability output that my weaver build does.  This is because I have to run energy + cleansing sigils on them to stay alive, whereas on weaver I can run battle + strength.  If these professions have builds that can cap might and vuln that just aren't being talked about, please let me know.  

#3: Sword Weaver constantly outputs 5 different conditions (vuln, chill, cripple, burn, bleed).  Build-specific is weakness and immobilize.  A large portion of my damage comes from condis, so clearly they're not cleansing fast enough.  Doesn't matter if the build is power or condi, weaver puts out those conditions.  Think about it: if cleanses just nullified condis completely, then why are there so many condi builds roaming?

#4: It's pretty hard to kite sword weaver, especially if they're in the air line.  It's how I kite with FGS: Fresh Air + One With Air gives me 6 seconds of superspeed every 4 seconds, so long as I can keep hitting my enemy.  So, if I need to go into FGS, I adopt the Water -> Double Air -> Repeat attunement spam to keep me healed, and under permanent superpseed.  Polaric Leap, Ride the Lightning, and Flame Uprising do such a good job of letting me catch people that I took Lightning Flash off my utility bar.  The only profession that can keep away from a air weaver is a thief, and Lightning Flash doesn't help much with that one.

#5: Before you ask, when it comes to total offensive power, I've found elementalist to be superior in damage to everything I listed at #2.  

 

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAwilZw8YSsI2JOWLpvMA-z1IY1oh/MSQBkpEQyXgA6B-w 
Your build probably. Considering that you wrote that you get to 25 might easily and also that Air gives you perma fury, you need to have some Auras spam to do that, since the Raging Storm cannot provide 100% uptime on it unless invested into Concentration as well. Gonna test it someday, but it looks like it'll have problems against anything that can output conditions.

 

It's actually this one:  http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAwilZwkYRsH2JWUTavVA-z1IY1ohvMCsAKNBU7CEQvF6PjA-w

The combination of Cleansing Water, Cleansing Wave, Woven Stride, Swift Revenge, and One With Air means that conditions fall off me like water off  of a duck.  Because of this, I rune Pack runes, and Strength + Battle sigils.  This gives me 60% boon duration, making Raging Storm give 3.25 seconds of fury every 3 seconds.  Any holes in Fury uptime is mitigated by the 13 second buffer that Pack runes gives on entering combat.  With the boon duration and the pulsing effects, Sigil of Strength can theoretically upkeep 16 stacks of might by itself.  Sigil of Battle can upkeep 10 consistently, which all comes together to keep me constantly around 20-25 stacks of might.  The permanent swiftness and regen are an additional plus.  I run stone resonance over lightning flash because I've found I need barrier and stability more than I need a teleport.

The main weakness of the build is it's relatively low offensive power compared to the marauder and marshal builds that I'm used to running on ele.  While it is stronger all-around, the lack of a superior offense makes it less effective when punishing mistakes.  This leads to two kinds of builds that give me trouble: thief builds (daredevil and deadeye) and minstrel builds.  The thief builds... always give sword weaver trouble.  But the second one is far more annoying.  There's been a trend of Soul Beasts and Scrappers that run around in full tank gear.  They can't beat this build, and I doubt it was ever their goal to do so.  The tank build's goal is to kite and stall until they can summon somebody else to come and help them at whatever objective they're stalling on.  I've gotten into protracted (10 minutes or so) fights against these guys, hoping someone else will come and help me deal with their shenanigans before their own reinforcements arrive.

37 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I dont get this point tbh:

If you can stack 25 vuln stacks on a Player in pvp or wvw, the enemy is easily bad or has a build without good condi cleanse, which shouldn't be the case. 

I never saw 25 stacks of vulnerability on me or any of my friends because every build with a bit of condi cleanse makes it nearly impossible. 

But i trust u obv that u can win 1v2 or 1v3 sometimes or often. 

90% of players tp away anyway when u wanna 2v1 it. I dont and thats why i also often win this. Condi Herald here, i got massive nerfs in pvp and wvw on may 11. But its playable and when a class is at Least playable, theres always a Chance that u can win a 1v2 or 1v3. 

So i agree with u. Fresh air weaver is pretty strong or at least fair in wvw. 

 

Electric Discharge is instantaneous at 900, so even if they dodge Quantum Strike they'll have 16 stacks of vulnerability on them every time I try it.  The other sources are Gale Strike (5), Natural Frenzy (8) and Primordial Stance while in air (8-16 per pulse, 40-80 total). These come in bursts lasting 10.75 seconds and Quantum Strike is on a 14.5 second cooldown, so there's periods where the vulnerability can drop off.  The exception to this is when I am using FGS, in which case my water -> double air loop hits them with 16 vulnerability every 4-5 seconds, keeping them capped as long as FGS lasts.  

Edited September 10, 2021 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493
formatting

[Widmo.3186]

4 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Boy I am popular today.  

Thats normal, if you see someone that doesnt know what hes talking about people want to clarify ; p 

Quote

 I'm pretty sure it's the celestial stats carrying me, not the other way around.  There's two reasons I say this:  First, I'm at best mediocre at PVP.  The second is the number of straight-up brawls that I win.

You pay too much attention to yourself. Its not about whether ure mediocre or good, its about enemies whether theyre average or just bad/bot level. Celestial is carrying you because theyre facetanking damage, noone that is mediocre or above would do that against sword weaver, trust me.
 

Quote

When I say a straight-up brawl, I mean when two players go at it with maximum damage to try and kill each other while facetanking the hits.  Before celestial stats were buffed to include concentration and expertise, I ran a full Marshall build.  In Marshalls, I had to use hit-and-run tactics.  I didn't win many outright brawls.  But now that I'm in celestials, I win the majority of them.  Doesn't matter which profession it is I'm fighting against, I can jump in with full expectations that I'll win.  The only time I don't is if I completely space it and blow all of my cooldowns on something like the Dragonhunter's Shield or Warrior's Defiant Stance, and even then I'll still win those fights sometimes.  There's little skill involved in these fights: I just mash stances and go through the rotation, except if they haven't moved after blasting might I go into air/fire and drop pyro vortex on them.

You see, thats the problem. You dont even think about what to do, you just mash stances and go through rotations. And im not saying thats bad, youre mediocre so its perfectly okay. And thats enough to win 1v2 fights vs people that facetank damage with weaver fire/air skills. Problem starts when you face people that know how weaver works and how to punish such gameplay, love to do that on teef. 1v2 can be done with any class, ele has nothing to do with it, or stats. Marshal and cele can be used on same build, but provide different playstyle. Cele has more toughness so you heal less but you tank more, meaning that you can facetank yourself more, just keeping rotation up. Marshal on the other hand is squishier, but provides more healing. Doesnt mean one of those is bad, just you dont get playstyle of one so pick another. And cele weaver was fine before buff, I dont think it boosted us even in 10%.

Quote

Now for the other bits:

#1: When I say they're running away, I mean that they're kiting.  Well, trying anyway.

Glad to hear

Quote

#2: I've played several other professions in wvw (mesmer, thief, engineer, revenant), and none of them come close to the might + vulnerability output that my weaver build does.  This is because I have to run energy + cleansing sigils on them to stay alive, whereas on weaver I can run battle + strength.  If these professions have builds that can cap might and vuln that just aren't being talked about, please let me know.  

Wow, this part is amazing. Youre from NA, arent you? Because it looks like you havent really met a decent mes, teef, engi or rev (most amazing is teef part, there should be a ton of them). And youre telling me you dont run neither energy nor cleansing (WvW-balanced version) on weaver and instead you pick battle and strength? Holy sh*t, im speechless. Actually, most of the above can either cap might/vuln high or they just dont care about it because they have high enough damage. No, for real, after this part im speechless.
 

Quote

#3: Sword Weaver constantly outputs 5 different conditions (vuln, chill, cripple, burn, bleed).  Build-specific is weakness and immobilize.  A large portion of my damage comes from condis, so clearly they're not cleansing fast enough.  Doesn't matter if the build is power or condi, weaver puts out those conditions.  Think about it: if cleanses just nullified condis completely, then why are there so many condi builds roaming?

Roaming condi builds are different, they stack condis faster, are tankier and with different gameplay. What you do is once again facetank against people that dont kite (or try kiting as you mentioned) and eat each hit you apply. Yes, cele weaver has access to many condis, but thats just an addition that can be cleansed solely with sigil and 1 or 2 build cleanses. Thats the difference between cele sword weaver and for example necro.
 

Quote

#4: It's pretty hard to kite sword weaver, especially if they're in the air line.  It's how I kite with FGS: Fresh Air + One With Air gives me 6 seconds of superspeed every 4 seconds, so long as I can keep hitting my enemy.  So, if I need to go into FGS, I adopt the Water -> Double Air -> Repeat attunement spam to keep me healed, and under permanent superpseed.  Polaric Leap, Ride the Lightning, and Flame Uprising do such a good job of letting me catch people that I took Lightning Flash off my utility bar.  The only profession that can keep away from a air weaver is a thief, and Lightning Flash doesn't help much with that one.

One With Air is imba for FA scepter, for sword you are (or at least should be) quickly punished, especially if you spam air attun, even double and dont run neither lr, nor focus offhand. It just amazes me what enemies you encounter, the build you use and way you play it is so easy to punish that its insane. Dont get me wrong, I agree that sw/d can be really mobile.

Quote

#5: Before you ask, when it comes to total offensive power, I've found elementalist to be superior in damage to everything I listed at #2.  

Again, amazing part. Mes burst might be weaker after nerfs, but still with full setup probably better. Teef, that should be obvious. Engi nades and EE. Rev after nerfs might actually have less burst or comparable when playing rene or proper herald setup.


Im glad that you enjoy weaver or ele in general, but for me it just looks like someone playing in Tier5, dodging all decent roamers and then having wrong conclusions. Or maybe we all switched games with mass exodus of Not Making Roaming Great Again and thats how it is nowadays. Who knows.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

6 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

sniff

I've used your build but as I've expected it'll melt to anything that can output constantly conditions. If you run into some immobilize condi lover then it's either luck or gg. It does have decent damage, but the sustain is terrible even with Stone Resonance. Another problem is range pressure, since you run off-hand dagger you have 0 reflects which rangers and other pewpew will delete you before you even get to them.
Without arcane that build feels very sluggish to say the least, 4s on attument is pretty much death sentence against anything that have working brain cells. Fresh Air on it feels so out of place that it'll take time to get used to it.
It does have potential on paper, but the class mechanics hold it back a lot.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

 

17 hours ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Thats normal, if you see someone that doesnt know what hes talking about people want to clarify ; p 

Sure.  This is my thread now.  It's no longer about the weaver.  It's about me.  While writing this I've only skimmed your post, as opening with an insult leads me to do that, and what I've seen is that you're more angry at me than you actually care about weaver.  Just look at this:

Quote

You pay too much attention to yourself.

You see, thats the problem. You dont even think about what to do, you just mash stances and go through rotations.

Its not about whether ure mediocre or good, its about enemies whether theyre average or just bad/bot level.

Glad to hear

Wow, this part is amazing. Youre from NA, arent you? Because it looks like you havent really met a decent mes, teef, engi or rev (most amazing is teef part, there should be a ton of them).

And im not saying thats bad, youre mediocre so its perfectly okay.

And youre telling me you dont run neither energy nor cleansing (WvW-balanced version) on weaver and instead you pick battle and strength? Holy sh*t, im speechless.

What you do is once again facetank against people that dont kite (or try kiting as you mentioned) and eat each hit you apply.

 It just amazes me what enemies you encounter, the build you use and way you play it is so easy to punish that its insane.

Im glad that you enjoy weaver or ele in general, but for me it just looks like someone playing in Tier5, dodging all decent roamers and then having wrong conclusions.  Or maybe we all switched games with mass exodus of Not Making Roaming Great Again and thats how it is nowadays. Who knows.

My goodness, man, stay with the topic!  A third of your post is just you wallowing in your dissatisfaction with me.  Your name isn't on my kitten list, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time.

Quote

Celestial is carrying you because theyre facetanking damage, noone that is mediocre or above would do that against sword weaver, trust me.

And thats enough to win 1v2 fights vs people that facetank damage with weaver fire/air skills.  Problem starts when you face people that know how weaver works and how to punish such gameplay, love to do that on teef. 1v2 can be done with any class, ele has nothing to do with it, or stats. Marshal and cele can be used on same build, but provide different playstyle. Cele has more toughness so you heal less but you tank more, meaning that you can facetank yourself more, just keeping rotation up. Marshal on the other hand is squishier, but provides more healing. Doesnt mean one of those is bad, just you dont get playstyle of one so pick another. And cele weaver was fine before buff, I dont think it boosted us even in 10%.

Fighting the bads isn't the point.  Neither are the virtues of face-tanking.  The point is this:  my overall effective health x DPS product is significantly higher in celestial than it is in marshals or marauder.  Effective Health is just how much health you have multiplied by your armor and divided by the total damage received after modifiers.  It isn't the number of hit points displayed, so much as it is the real health you have when taking damage.  DPS is self-explanatory.  If you multiply these two together, you get how much damage you do per each point of health you have.  Healing isn't guaranteed, but if you do factor it in you treat it as additional hit points.  The number isn't easy to digest, but what it represents is the overall statistical strength of a build.  The higher it is, the more has to be done to beat you.  There's a second side to this number: whomever is higher is winning by default.

Going in and attacking with full aggression and force is only a bad idea if your build has a lower combination of damage and durability than the guy you're fighting.  Because then, he'll beat you automatically.  In contrast, if you have the higher combination of damage and durability, you don't have to figure out much of a strategy.  You can chase people down while attacking them, and it is up to the other guy to figure out how to beat you.  As it happens, this tactic of face-tanking brute force works against certain elementalist builds, particularly marshals and scepter builds.  It doesn't work against celestial.  In part, this is because of the superior statistical fortitude celestial provides, giving 5751 total stat points as compared to the 3612 given by marauder and marshal.  Also in part is the efficient distribution: so many stats work multiplicatively with each other, so giving a large spread gives a better overall result than focusing on one area.  The recent celestial buffs gave us 42% more condition duration and boon duration, which is far more substantial than a 10% improvement.  

As an example of this spread, the difference between marshals and celestials is smaller than most realize.  First, the heal scaling was nerfed so hard in the February patch that all of the additional healing from Marshals matters very little.  Second, Celestial only takes 76% of the damage that Marshalls does.  Compare Signet of Restoration's passive heal: 219 on celestial, 256 on marshals.  Taking toughness into account, this would give the signet a scaled healing of 289 per swing on celestial.  Toughness doesn't matter for conditions, but also consider that celestial has 6,120 more health that marshals, giving a healthy buffer.  Against a condi fight the total heal advantage would have to accumulate more than 6,120 health for the fight for marshal to come out on top.  I haven't done a full analysis on each heal and barrier that ele gets, but I highly suspect we'd see the same story for each one.

Keeping all of this in mind, there's one point in particular I'd really like to focus on:

Quote

Celestial is carrying you because theyre facetanking damage, noone that is mediocre or above would do that against sword weaver, trust me.

 

And thats enough to win 1v2 fights vs people that facetank damage with weaver fire/air skills.

Why?  Think for a moment:  why wouldn't they do that?   Why wouldn't someone just shrug off the damage of the profession with the lowest health and the lowest armor in the game?  Why wouldn't someone just power through and carry on?  By your own word, elementalists are inferior in damage output, inferior in condition output, inferior in debuffing, and inferior in self buffing.  So... why?  You're telling me that other professions are superior in all of this with much less effort, and yet you're telling me other professions would have to be simpletons to try and power through a sword weaver.  That is a contradiction.  The reason why it is other professions can't mash buttons and win against someone doing the same on a sword weaver is if the weaver does, in fact, have superior damage, buffing, debuffing, and/or condition output.  So superior, in fact, that it is enough to more than compensate for all of the other flaws that Weaver has.

That's why I posted in this thread.  The PVE rotation is basically "Attune, mash buttons left to right," yet it is called overly complex.  In WvW we're said to be feeble, and yet this is the strongest performance I've gotten from any profession since pre-nerf herald.  Look, Ele isn't perfect.  I've voiced my concerns with it in numerous other threads.  But of those concerns, "overly complex" and "little damage" are not among them.  

Quote

Actually, most of the above can either cap might/vuln high or they just dont care about it because they have high enough damage. No, for real, after this part im speechless.

This is utter nonsense.  There is never "enough damage" so that you stop building might or inflicting vulnerability on a non-capped target.  

Quote

Roaming condi builds are different, they stack condis faster, are tankier and with different gameplay.. Yes, cele weaver has access to many condis, but thats just an addition that can be cleansed solely with sigil and 1 or 2 build cleanses. Thats the difference between cele sword weaver and for example necro.

Considering that Condi Weaver is a thing, and it doesn't inflict any more types of conditions than what is incidental to every other ele build, I find this part to be utter nonsense.  

Quote

One With Air is imba for FA scepter, for sword you are (or at least should be) quickly punished, especially if you spam air attun, even double and dont run neither lr, nor focus offhand.  Dont get me wrong, I agree that sw/d can be really mobile.

I don't do that.  Fresh Air is used to do 3 things: Access off-hand skills quicker, set up bursts of skills not normally in available in quick succession, and also to maintain quick water attunement spam while in FGS.  If the need or opportunity doesn't arise, then I don't do it.

Quote

Again, amazing part. Mes burst might be weaker after nerfs, but still with full setup probably better. Teef, that should be obvious. Engi nades and EE. Rev after nerfs might actually have less burst or comparable when playing rene or proper herald setup.
 

They really don't.  

Edited September 11, 2021 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493
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[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

15 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I've used your build but as I've expected it'll melt to anything that can output constantly conditions. If you run into some immobilize condi lover then it's either luck or gg. It does have decent damage, but the sustain is terrible even with Stone Resonance. Another problem is range pressure, since you run off-hand dagger you have 0 reflects which rangers and other pewpew will delete you before you even get to them.
Without arcane that build feels very sluggish to say the least, 4s on attument is pretty much death sentence against anything that have working brain cells. Fresh Air on it feels so out of place that it'll take time to get used to it.
It does have potential on paper, but the class mechanics hold it back a lot.

I have fought my share of traiblazers, including immobilize druids.  It helps to know where all of the regeneration and swiftness procs come from.  Woven Stride's regeneration effect doesn't have an ICD, only the swiftness on conditions does.  This means that a quick trip into water then air can provide a series of quick cleanses, especially if you use riptide, cleansing wave, updraft, and auto attacks in air (second hit grants swiftness).  I respond to ranged pressure by... being on my warclaw when out of combat.  But, in the occasions where someone does try to snipe me down, I usually just close the distance with a combination of evades and air skills, and if that doesn't suffice for some reason I drop the FGS and then use it as the closer + ranged pressure.

Using off-hand dagger was a conscious choice.  I've found far more often than not that what I need is offensive pressure and mobility more than projectile disruption or fire aura.  When I use Obsidian Flesh or Swirling Winds, it functions to delay the inevitable more than it provides any sort of tactical advantage.  If you're used to running focus with arcane, the build is definitely going to feel like its running sideways.  The attunements work as different toolboxes under each build, which is also why there's different utility choices.  I.E. I use stone resonance instead of lightning flash, because ride the lightning is on my weapon.

One of the reasons why I don't run LR or arcane is that I've come to depend on Fresh Air.  I'd have to re-train my fingers and mindset entirely to use the other lines.  I do use arcane while in a small group, since it buffs in a group, but the whole time I find myself mashing f3 to try and access off-hand and dual skills.  I'm not sure which one is superior, mostly because I focus mostly on WvW and don't do high-end PVP or duels, but from fighting Blackgate to Maguma this roaming build has served me well.

Might as well put down the cleanses:

• 2 on pack runes proc (30 seconds)
• 1 on disabling condition (5 seconds)
• 1 on dual skill (4 seconds)
• 1 while attuning to air (4 seconds)
• 1 on polaric leap (12 seconds)
• 1 on auto attack chain (2.3 seconds?)
• 1 on updraft (30 seconds)
• 1 on water attunement (4 seconds)
• 1 on riptide (14.5 seconds)
• 2 on Cleansing Wave ( 24 seconds)
• 1 on Transmute Frost Aura (24 seconds)
• 1 on Aqua Siphon (12 seconds)

Edited September 11, 2021 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493
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[Dadnir.5038]

On 9/4/2021 at 7:48 PM, Atheismo.5164 said:

Why does anyone play Weaver?  Is it just the cool factor?

 

People play weaver because they like to try hard, they feel fulfilment in a seemingly complexe rotation.

 

People also feel like weaver is underpowered because they tend try too hard. It is totally possible to dumb down the weaver (and other elementalist builds) rotations with acceptable golem dps loss for an effective dps gain in actual encounters. Not everybody nor every group can bring the most out of a weaver, knowing which level of rotation you and your group can handle is also a proof of wether you are a good player or not.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I have fought my share of traiblazers, including immobilize druids.  It helps to know where all of the regeneration and swiftness procs come from.  Woven Stride's regeneration effect doesn't have an ICD, only the swiftness on conditions does.  This means that a quick trip into water then air can provide a series of quick cleanses, especially if you use riptide, cleansing wave, updraft, and auto attacks in air (second hit grants swiftness).  I respond to ranged pressure by... being on my warclaw when out of combat.  But, in the occasions where someone does try to snipe me down, I usually just close the distance with a combination of evades and air skills, and if that doesn't suffice for some reason I drop the FGS and then use it as the closer + ranged pressure.

Using off-hand dagger was a conscious choice.  I've found far more often than not that what I need is offensive pressure and mobility more than projectile disruption or fire aura.  When I use Obsidian Flesh or Swirling Winds, it functions to delay the inevitable more than it provides any sort of tactical advantage.  If you're used to running focus with arcane, the build is definitely going to feel like its running sideways.  The attunements work as different toolboxes under each build, which is also why there's different utility choices.  I.E. I use stone resonance instead of lightning flash, because ride the lightning is on my weapon.

One of the reasons why I don't run LR or arcane is that I've come to depend on Fresh Air.  I'd have to re-train my fingers and mindset entirely to use the other lines.  I do use arcane while in a small group, since it buffs in a group, but the whole time I find myself mashing f3 to try and access off-hand and dual skills.  I'm not sure which one is superior, mostly because I focus mostly on WvW and don't do high-end PVP or duels, but from fighting Blackgate to Maguma this roaming build has served me well.

Might as well put down the cleanses:

• 2 on pack runes proc (30 seconds)
• 1 on disabling condition (5 seconds)
• 1 on dual skill (4 seconds)
• 1 while attuning to air (4 seconds)
• 1 on polaric leap (12 seconds)
• 1 on auto attack chain (2.3 seconds?)
• 1 on updraft (30 seconds)
• 1 on water attunement (4 seconds)
• 1 on riptide (14.5 seconds)
• 2 on Cleansing Wave ( 24 seconds)
• 1 on Transmute Frost Aura (24 seconds)
• 1 on Aqua Siphon (12 seconds)

I'm fully aware how that builds works, but it's far too slow with 4s attument swap, the moment you meet something that can spam condies constantly it'll simply die. Good druids will shut it down before you'll have chance to switch to water. For it to actually work you would need to camp 1 attument for prolonged time, which is also no-no for Weavers.
Anything that is range based won't let you also get close to them or have enough melee option to fight you on face2face.
I'm really amazed that it works on NA though.
 

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

On 9/4/2021 at 7:48 PM, Atheismo.5164 said:

Seriously, I play my Reaper and upon going into shroud and hitting #4 I can do more damage than an entire Weaver rotation requiring 8 buttons in half the time.  Hell I'm pretty sure my shroud auto attacks with permanent free quickness does about as much as pianoing my way through half a dozen attunement swaps.  And all this with a second healthbar. 

 

Why does anyone play Weaver?  Is it just the cool factor?

 

The answer is more nearly nobody plays ele any more in PvE endcontent and people who enjoyed this kind of hard-try gameplay like me thinking about to which game they might switch to.

 

Reason is they nerfed the build to the ground a while ago or like you said why should I play Weaver when there are tankier options which do more DPS?! and doesn't have even the complicated rota.

 

To be precise this is true for the all the power builds while condi weaver got even pushed over the 40k limit but nobody is playing them because of a really complicated rotas.( all f button with 2 different rotations)

 

I mean before the exposed buff changes I saw some condi weavers in 100 cm (fractal)  after the change I have not met one any more.

 

Weaver was hanging for a while on a thread even before that or better said the changes to the might and fire field was already which killed it because of too slow dps rampage for the quick game play in fractals with those changes.

 

The problems before this was that DH already cracked the 40k mark and had way more dps then Weaver add this point I think it was back then 42k with the virtue build current here : https://lucky-noobs.com/benchmarks ( what is missing is Scourge with epi which should be also 40k+).

 

What also changed is with pre-buff of boons from other build option from ele Weaver could still bump up some good dmg in this 42k dh time but fundamentally it was much weaker and good only do top dps in a short burst.

 

So when you dataming those data and only look at the top results you would get an absolute wrong picture

 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Please find a build for elem with no counter, no cons !?

 

If that was so easy the thread won't even exist and we won't be here complaining about the desastrous state of the class since 2 years at least.

[draxynnic.3719]

There's a bit of a catch-22 here in that if elementalists did get the damage that the rotation complexity would need to justify itself, particularly when combined with their low durability when going full DPS, it would make them pretty much the only really competitive DPS option in high-end PvE, which would alienate everyone who doesn't want the game to be about playing piano with complex rotations. Meanwhile, elementalist in other modes is designed to compensate for low durability through being one of the strongest self-healers in the game - which doesn't help much when you can be oneshotted by things that professions with higher base health and/or toughness can survive, and where anything that doesn't kill you is usually expected to be taken care of by the dedicated healer(s).

 

Thinking on it, the answer might well need to be that ArenaNet needs to throw out the idea of the elementalist being the squishy mage archetype and bump up their base health to mesmer level. It's not like elementalist has had the ranged focus that would justify the squishy mage archetype for quite some time. In PvE, you could probably make this change without having to change anything else, since elementalist DPS values in PvE have already been normalised to be about what mesmers can put out. In competitive, you might need to shave off a bit of damage to compensate, encouraging elementalists to shift out of their defensive stats into something a little more aggressive to compensate.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

1 hour ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

I mean before the exposed buff changes I saw some condi weavers in 100 cm (fractal)  after the change I have not met one any more.

 

The hybrid build works really great in some circumstances ; even before exposed buff and tweaks on weaver's traits I could outdps others because of huge burst potential of pyrovortex, quantum strike etc on skorvald, Arkk,... higher than Fb or Power dh etc. ( on an average effort given, not full try hard, question of life or death (edit*, no  the ROTATION isn't hard, this a lie or a bad impression reading the written rotation). With exposed +100% CD, Fb is a little bit well placed.

 

The real issue isn't dps / burst as you suggest, at least is tied to others issues ; weaver is just too weak, reliant to support classes and "punching ball" bosses ; you can't really adapt to situation if the thing goes bad (survive alone, range option, cleave, immediat CC)

For example this week on sunqua CM : -30% HP and +damage per boons ... I did not even try but you should  just die because of one lazer. Or on Arkk I got OS by the cat-golems  for real ...

Plus scourges and FB are already bulkier but also their conditions last longer overall and they have mid-range option, huge carry potential; why bother trying hard weaver ?

Edited September 11, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Arheundel.6451]

On 9/4/2021 at 6:48 PM, Atheismo.5164 said:

Seriously, I play my Reaper and upon going into shroud and hitting #4 I can do more damage than an entire Weaver rotation requiring 8 buttons in half the time.  Hell I'm pretty sure my shroud auto attacks with permanent free quickness does about as much as pianoing my way through half a dozen attunement swaps.  And all this with a second healthbar. 

 

Why does anyone play Weaver?  Is it just the cool factor?

Because elementalist is the only class in the game balanced around the 2% playing the class, if even a single ele performs well in any scenario...well that will become the bennchmark for balance of the whole class.

It's the contrary of all other classes, which are balanced around mouth breathers, the end result is that you must be a pro player on ele to beat an average hamster smashing his tiny paws on the keyboard with some other professions like herald, necro, engi , guardian...yeha

A nobody on a necro does 2-3x your dmg while pressing 1-2 buttons...meanwhile you go through rotations repeated to exaustion and that include intricate strategies, timing and scenarios....ha yes, the necro player won't even need to dodge as the game tank for him ...you on ele will have to time your dodges too.

GW2 is not a game that reward effort, actually it's the opposite, the most simpleminded builds are the most rewarding to play 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Arheundel.6451