Change Request Series: Spellbreaker QOL

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Hi @Cal Cohen.2358/ @Cal Cohen.3527, today we're going to discuss some QOL for Spellbreaker. This is in regards to Anet trying to increase PvE damage for Spellbreaker in a way that falls flat on its face in PvP/WvW.

 

Problem: Spellbreaker's ability to strip boons cannot keep up with boon reapplication thus limiting its ability to leverage it's increased damage to boonless foes in PvP/WvW

Solution: Increased the boons removed by Dispelling Force from 1 to 2 in PvP and from 1 to 3 in WvW. The difference there is an issue of scale between the two game modes.

 

This gives more opportunity to benefit from Pure Strike and Sun & Moon Style's increased damage versus boonless foes.

 

Some minor QOL increases for Spellbreaker also include the following:

Raise FC damage to a 1.0 scaling (half of the PvE damage for reference)  and reduce the daze to 1/4s. The current daze length is not viewed well by the community, and neither is the current damage, this would fix both issues while not being OP.

 

Break Enchantments: For PvP raise the damage to 0.5 scaling, for WvW raise the boons removed to 4. The WvW increase is again a matter of scaling in that game mode, for PvP the damage is too small.

The other Meditations need reworks, but that is beyond you. There also needs to be a Meditations trait, but that is also beyond you.

Again fellow warriors, please keep commentary to the changes suggested in this thread. Also, please remember that Cal can only touch existing numbers. 

[Issette.3248]

Spellbreakers Elite Winds of Disenchantment adds the Disenchantment effect to hit targets.

The Disenchantment effect could be a interesting mechanic for Spellbreaker to make the class more competitive with other boon removing classes such as Scourge.

Instead of just removing boons or corrupting them, we prevent them from being applied.

 

The effect could be part of a grandmaster trait:

"Everytime you remove a boon, also apply Disenchantment" or "Add Disenchantment on Burst skills", replacing the damage increase of Revenge Counter.

Or maybe as additional effect of Magebane Tether, but that would probably make this trait too strong.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Rettan.9603 said:

Spellbreakers Elite Winds of Disenchantment adds the Disenchantment effect to hit targets.

The Disenchantment effect could be a interesting mechanic for Spellbreaker to make the class more competitive with other boon removing classes such as Scourge.

Instead of just removing boons or corrupting them, we prevent them from being applied.

That is indeed what the Dev team should do, but that is not what Cal can do.

4 minutes ago, Rettan.9603 said:

The effect could be part of a grandmaster trait:

"Everytime you remove a boon, also apply Disenchantment" or "Add Disenchantment on Burst skills", replacing the damage increase of Revenge Counter.

Or maybe as additional effect of Magebane Tether, but that would probably make this trait too strong.

 

That is what the Dev team should do, but again this is not what Cal can do.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

58 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Hi @Cal Cohen.2358/ @Cal Cohen.3527, today we're going to discuss some QOL for Spellbreaker. This is in regards to Anet trying to increase PvE damage for Spellbreaker in a way that falls flat on its face in PvP/WvW.

 

Problem: Spellbreaker's ability to strip boons cannot keep up with boon reapplication thus limiting its ability to leverage it's increased damage to boonless foes in PvP/WvW

Solution: Increased the boons removed by Dispelling Force from 1 to 2 in PvP and from 1 to 3 in WvW. The difference there is an issue of scale between the two game modes.

 

This gives more opportunity to benefit from Pure Strike and Sun & Moon Style's increased damage versus boonless foes.

 

Some minor QOL increases for Spellbreaker also include the following:

Raise FC damage to a 1.0 scaling (half of the PvE damage for reference)  and reduce the daze to 1/4s. The current daze length is not viewed well by the community, and neither is the current damage, this would fix both issues while not being OP.

 

Break Enchantments: For PvP raise the damage to 0.5 scaling, for WvW raise the boons removed to 4. The WvW increase is again a matter of scaling in that game mode, for PvP the damage is too small.

The other Meditations need reworks, but that is beyond you. There also needs to be a Meditations trait, but that is also beyond you.

Again fellow warriors, please keep commentary to the changes suggested in this thread. Also, please remember that Cal can only touch existing numbers. 

Good ideas.  Not entirely sure I like FC's daze being reduced to 1/4s since the AOE CC is really the only teamfighting attribute SpB brings to the table.  I would probably leave the daze duration alone or reduce it mildly, like to 3/4s or 1/2s.  Increasing the coefficient to 1.0 makes sense and might make Revenge counter a little more viable, which would be nice.

 

Also, these are a little off-topic, but are SpB QOL issues and within Cal's wheelhouse, so I figured I'd mention them:

 

Featherfoot Grace: Reduce CD to 30s.

Currently very low value at 45s CD.  This used to be more appropriate when Resistance gave full immunity to all conditions.  But now that Resistance only affects non-damaging conditions, this skill lost a lot of its value.  Any choice of stun break needs to compete with the excellent value of Endure Pain on a 40s CD.  Featherfoot grace just isn't good enough to pick over EP currently, but if it had a 30s CD, I think it would be much more usable.

 

Revenge Counter: Increase resistance duration from 2s to 3s

Resistance was nerfed, but this skill was not adjusted to improve it's value.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Good ideas.  Not entirely sure I like FC's daze being reduced to 1/4s since the AOE CC is really the only teamfighting attribute SpB brings to the table.  I would probably leave the daze duration alone or reduce it mildly, like to 3/4s or 1/2s.  Increasing the coefficient to 1.0 makes sense and might make Revenge counter a little more viable, which would be nice.

It is more about offering up some of the daze duration in order to return some of it's damage. I'm actually ambivalent on the daze duration. It could remain at it's current duration for all I care, but as I said I offered it up for increased damage as some ort of balance.

1 minute ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Also, these are a little off-topic, but are SpB QOL issues and within Cal's wheelhouse, so I figured I'd mention them:

 

Featherfoot Grace: Reduce CD to 30s.

Currently very low value at 45s CD.  This used to be more appropriate when Resistance gave full immunity to all conditions.  But now that Resistance only affects non-damaging conditions, this skill lost a lot of its value.  Any choice of stun break needs to compete with the excellent value of Endure Pain on a 40s CD.  Featherfoot grace just isn't good enough to pick over EP currently, but if it had a 30s CD, I think it would be much more usable.

Good catch. I'm trying to keep my lists small since Cal and Grouch have professed that long lists are the opposite of helpful for them. But this is a good one for them to consider. 

1 minute ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Revenge Counter: Increase resistance duration from 2s to 3s

Resistance was nerfed, but this skill was not adjusted to improve it's value.

That is worthy of it's own series just on Resistance based skills/traits. I plan on doing that one at some point. Maybe later this week when I do my second one for this week.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

 Good catch. I'm trying to keep my lists small since Cal and Grouch have professed that long lists are the opposite of helpful for them. But this is a good one for them to consider. 

 

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

 

I call BS excuses on that from the 'balance' team, but I digress. 

 

Increase 'Moon' Style Crit to Heal %: Crit chance already has a chance of being inflicted, and a 7% Crit to Heal for OH Dagger (an off hand that falls short extremely compared to Axe in dps, shield in defense, warhorn in support, Mace in CC and even hybrid role like sword) is laughable and offers no sustain. If this was the idea of SpB's sustain trait, then the team failed big time. Double it at the very least or rework it to heal you on Boon removal, but that's not the topic here. Give me a reason to equip OH dagger in a full assassin gear ascended warrior (only way to perma crit with Fury and have a chance to utilize this heal more easily, at the huge cost of glass gear and a very questionable OH option as mentioned). 

 

Increase the dmg coefficient in Loss Aversion: Simple, the skill doesn't crit so you won't have to be afraid as you did for CC.. I'd say a 25% increase in the dmg coeff would be good, but the more the better. Let me see actual dmg from boonstrip instead of this joke of a skill we got now and is the only way to make WoD remotely 'offensive'. 

 

Increase Imminent Threat Taunt Radius: Double the radius, Rev has a 1200 range taunt which can target foes, and I'd say our taunt is very bad compared to that. Unless the skill gets reworked, double its radius and if you can alter it, make it unblockable similarly to fear me shout. It would see a lot more play for a non-stunbreak soft CC 'defensive' skill. It cannot even properly proc Body Blow on mobs cause of its small radius.. 

 

Revert the Magebane Tether changes partially: Give back some Might gen on this skill, aside from the reveal and pull it's not doing its job properly in channeling some might which can assist with self sustain or the increased lethality of the warrior that gets rewarded for hitting their burst on the enemy and binding them to the tether. 3/4 Might application interval for 10 might stacks for using the tether for its full duration. 

 

@CalCohen just save your self some time and go over the omnibus and the other related threads. You didn't even ask for whatever initiative the warrior's have in here, but I don't think you or the team will bat and eye anyway so come on, show us a good elite spec to get our money! 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

15 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

 

I call BS excuses on that from the 'balance' team, but I digress. 

 

Increase 'Moon' Style Crit to Heal %: Crit chance already has a chance of being inflicted, and a 7% Crit to Heal for OH Dagger (an off hand that falls short extremely compared to Axe in dps, shield in defense, warhorn in support, Mace in CC and even hybrid role like sword) is laughable and offers no sustain. If this was the idea of SpB's sustain trait, then the team failed big time. Double it at the very least or rework it to heal you on Boon removal, but that's not the topic here. Give me a reason to equip OH dagger in a full assassin gear ascended warrior (only way to perma crit with Fury and have a chance to utilize this heal more easily, at the huge cost of glass gear and a very questionable OH option as mentioned). 

I think the reason it is where it is is because it is meant to be another layer on top of our other layers of sustain (MM, MMR, AH, signet...). It's one of those sustain traits that if it were to get too big would create problems. That said, 10% should be an easy lift considering it is only critical damage that is healed and not all damage dealt.

15 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Increase the dmg coefficient in Loss Aversion: Simple, the skill doesn't crit so you won't have to be afraid as you did for CC.. I'd say a 25% increase in the dmg coeff would be good, but the more the better. Let me see actual dmg from boonstrip instead of this joke of a skill we got now and is the only way to make WoD remotely 'offensive'. 

Given that I just recommended increasing the boons stripped by 100%  to 200% on dispelling force that would already increase the damage dealt by Loss Aversion, which is why I did not mention it. Let me ask you if you think these two changes together would steamroll?

15 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Increase Imminent Threat Taunt Radius: Double the radius, Rev has a 1200 range taunt which can target foes, and I'd say our taunt is very bad compared to that. Unless the skill gets reworked, double its radius and if you can alter it, make it unblockable similarly to fear me shout. It would see a lot more play for a non-stunbreak soft CC 'defensive' skill. It cannot even properly proc Body Blow on mobs cause of its small radius.. 

Another good catch on Imminent Threat range. Looks like a Meditations series practically wrote itself in this thread.

15 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Revert the Magebane Tether changes partially: Give back some Might gen on this skill, aside from the reveal and pull it's not doing its job properly in channeling some might which can assist with self sustain or the increased lethality of the warrior that gets rewarded for hitting their burst on the enemy and binding them to the tether. 3/4 Might application interval for 10 might stacks for using the tether for its full duration. 

This is something that I would lump in with the might nerf on Eviscerate in a separate thread.

15 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

@CalCohen just save your self some time and go over the omnibus and the other related threads. You didn't even ask for whatever initiative the warrior's have in here, but I don't think you or the team will bat and eye anyway so come on, show us a good elite spec to get our money! 

@Cal Cohen.2358 really should spend some quality time with a case of Dasani and read through the omnibus.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think the reason it is where it is is because it is meant to be another layer on top of our other layers of sustain (MM, MMR, AH, signet...). It's one of those sustain traits that if it were to get too big would create problems. That said, 10% should be an easy lift considering it is only critical damage that is healed and not all damage dealt.

Yeah... Signet was gutted, MM is meh, only has use with Phalanx strength and we all know how that works for solo roamers and even zerg comps (with my core zerg warr using Phalanx, the might application duration was quite bad, which is why I had to sacrifice all my utilities for more might share).. MMR is the strongest because it is not time gated and AH is a shadow of what it can be (without being OP). So I'd say Zerker and SpB healing options need a Buff since Anet isn't rly giving us a reason to drop discipline from all our builds... Therefore, the concept of a triple sustain trait line warrior is a poor PvE roaming option which hardly affects the game balance. Yes on that 10% would still want the 14% tho. 

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Given that I just recommended increasing the boons stripped by 100%  to 200% on dispelling force that would already increase the damage dealt by Loss Aversion, which is why I did not mention it. Let me ask you if you think these two changes together would steamroll?

So let's see, I don't have some arcdps numbers, but a decent DPS SpB usually has loss Aversion as a skill within the last of their top 10 dmg options. You don't rly see Loss Aversion in zerging (multi-target strip, no remotely talking about solo and small scale which means less potent dmg already) being strong. It cannot crit and I think that ok for its design. It would see its dmg doubled with your change, but I think just buffing the number to 100 or something would still be OK. Isn't it at 83 rn? 

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Another good catch on Imminent Threat range. Looks like a Meditations series practically wrote itself in this thread.

Yeah... I wonder how this didn't happen with Rage Skills on Zerker, but I think it'd be off topic xD

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

This is something that I would lump in with the might nerf on Eviscerate in a separate thread.

Maybe we should address is in the 'Evsicerate is stupid' thread lol. Let's make stupid threads for everything ngl. 

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 really should spend some quality time with a case of Dasani and read through the omnibus.

And laughing or getting ideas for other specs... I can see some of those sweet ideas on skill reworks doing well on Rev and Elementalist! Give Elementalists good rage skills!! 

[kmark.8519]

The basic flaw of Spellbreaker is that boons can be reapplied in mass almost instantly, as others pointed out. If there would be a way to prevent boon re-application then this spec could have a point, but until then its an useless elite. Especially that their skills are stronger on targets that were stripped off boons... but there is not a single character in the entire game who can't instantly reapply all the removed boons so really wtf were the devs thinking here..

[Hotride.2187]

18 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Featherfoot Grace: Reduce CD to 30s.

 

Currently very low value at 45s CD.  This used to be more appropriate when Resistance gave full immunity to all conditions.  But now that Resistance only affects non-damaging conditions, this skill lost a lot of its value.  Any choice of stun break needs to compete with the excellent value of Endure Pain on a 40s CD.  Featherfoot grace just isn't good enough to pick over EP currently, but if it had a 30s CD, I think it would be much more usable.

I run featherfoot grace both in wvw roaming and in spvp 5v5. I would say 35 or 36 seconds  CD would be fine. 40 would be too much, I agree. 30 might be a bit low, but would still be preferrable to 45.

13 hours ago, kmark.8519 said:

The basic flaw of Spellbreaker is that boons can be reapplied in mass almost instantly, as others pointed out. If there would be a way to prevent boon re-application then this spec could have a point, but until then its an useless elite. Especially that their skills are stronger on targets that were stripped off boons... but there is not a single character in the entire game who can't instantly reapply all the removed boons so really wtf were the devs thinking here..

In wvw, sigil of absorption is a good boonstrip (in pvp its a laughable 1 boon steal though...). If you are able to chain interrupts most classes melt (unless they run trailblaizer or celestial or similar gear...) as they can't fight you with their boons on you.

Unfortunately many of the widely used classes have personal stability and so you cannot interrupt them a lot of the time. This added on top of your abilities just not landing half the time and your target saving dodges for your CCs (as they are not forced to dodge anything else), means you can't strip/steal that much...

So yeah. Even if stripped boons could not be re-applied "soon", that would mean you *must* land every dagger burst. Players will just avoid it like they avoid FC. It would give you 1 more ability that must be evaded but I doubt it will really do that much. You can't really slot any other boon removal in my experience, other than when you are a bubble bot.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Hotride.2187

[Ochosan.4071]

I spent the last few days playing as Thief/Guardian/Rev in SPvP and holy kitten what a difference. It feels like playing complete classes with ability to carry the game.

 

I went back to playing some Warrior and it's night and day, in the worst of ways. I win a duel and I feel like I just sweated my kitten off to get outplays. This class is so kitten, it's hard to believe Anet left Spb in this state.

[Vancho.8750]

@Lan Deathrider.5910

I think it is a wrong way of balancing it for PVE to just up its damage, Berserker is already THE DPS speck, if SB is comparable Berserker loses its point since SB is also a control speck. Yet another DPS speck is just pointless and boring way of looking at things. The way I see it SB is a tank archetype from any other game, but GW2 tanks also need to be supports of some kind to balance out the DPS loss. SB has been an option for support for WvW and PVP for a long time it just needs some help to get a reason to be in PVE.

The way I see it off hand dagger should get something like a block or dodge and at least on row of traitline should be about group support in some manner for example Guard Counter gives you protection what if it gave 5 people protection same with revenge counter and resistance, magebane already works with Phalanx Strength maybe work on that, maybe it should pull fury share from somewhere, and the meditations should probably be also support skills instead of the useless kitten that they are now. The only issue I find with the support war is banners since you will always have to carry them and you only one slot to play with, but if you don't have banners no one will take war in PVE, such terrible skills. SB just needs something that it can give out and exchange some other class for a spot in raids or fractals. 
I don't understand why people and Arenanet are so concentrated on the removing boon part and damage, mesmer has comparable boon removal in core traits and skills, I don't see people saying mesmer is about removing boons and that is all. SB has also good control options and defensive options, the kitten FC is all about getting hit how is that not sparking some thought that SB should be tank. If we look at another speck that got reworked into relevance, Scrapper, we can see that it doesn't need that much work to be good for something, maybe SB should have gotten the Alacrity boon instead of Mirage(why the kitten was mirage picked for that Chrono already gives Alacrity ).    

All I see with SB is a wasted concept, Arenanet spend too much time on nerfing it instead of reworking it with some kind of idea what SB should be in the boundaries of PVE, SPVP and WvW .    

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910

I think it is a wrong way of balancing it for PVE to just up its damage, Berserker is already THE DPS speck, if SB is comparable Berserker loses its point since SB is also a control speck. Yet another DPS speck is just pointless and boring way of looking at things. The way I see it SB is a tank archetype from any other game, but GW2 tanks also need to be supports of some kind to balance out the DPS loss. SB has been an option for support for WvW and PVP for a long time it just needs some help to get a reason to be in PVE.

Well It was Anet's decision there not mine. It is more of a bruiser spec than a tank. I think the way to help it better in PvE in that 'Tank' role would be to address the uselessness of Defense instead.

2 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

The way I see it off hand dagger should get something like a block or dodge and at least on row of traitline should be about group support in some manner for example Guard Counter gives you protection what if it gave 5 people protection same with revenge counter and resistance, magebane already works with Phalanx Strength maybe work on that, maybe it should pull fury share from somewhere, and the meditations should probably be also support skills instead of the useless kitten that they are now. The only issue I find with the support war is banners since you will always have to carry them and you only one slot to play with, but if you don't have banners no one will take war in PVE, such terrible skills. SB just needs something that it can give out and exchange some other class for a spot in raids or fractals. 
I don't understand why people and Arenanet are so concentrated on the removing boon part and damage, mesmer has comparable boon removal in core traits and skills, I don't see people saying mesmer is about removing boons and that is all. SB has also good control options and defensive options, the kitten FC is all about getting hit how is that not sparking some thought that SB should be tank. If we look at another speck that got reworked into relevance, Scrapper, we can see that it doesn't need that much work to be good for something, maybe SB should have gotten the Alacrity boon instead of Mirage(why the kitten was mirage picked for that Chrono already gives Alacrity ).    

OH Dagger really needs Dagger 5 turned into a ground targeted mini WoD. Meditations could also use a serious rework to apply party buffs.

2 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

All I see with SB is a wasted concept, Arenanet spend too much time on nerfing it instead of reworking it with some kind of idea what SB should be in the boundaries of PVE, SPVP and WvW .    

Wasted in PvE maybe. It needs some QOL still in the other modes though.

[Vancho.8750]

17 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Well It was Anet's decision there not mine. It is more of a bruiser spec than a tank. I think the way to help it better in PvE in that 'Tank' role would be to address the uselessness of Defense instead.

OH Dagger really needs Dagger 5 turned into a ground targeted mini WoD. Meditations could also use a serious rework to apply party buffs.

Wasted in PvE maybe. It needs some QOL still in the other modes though.

Maybe a combo of Defense/Tactics/ Spellbreaker could be THE tank speck, take spellbreaker as how ever you want bruiser, tank, DPS but the main Mechanic Full counter is all about getting hit and the only way to be able to use it with good efficiency in PVE is if you are the one taking the hits, and the mechanic is defining for spellbreaker. Maybe they can do speck with variation, where you can pick full tank support or tank dps depending of the traitlines you take. It just little imagination and idea how SB could fit in with everything else without taking the same spot as Berserker.

Also allot of issues that SB and berserker have are mostly due to the core specialization and skills just not working in synergy, currently there is the DPS build and maybe the Support build for WvW, which is mostly taken for WoD and the utilities are there to give something of value for the zerg, the Warrior part of the speck you know the weapons and burst are not important, so it is yet another fail in the concept.  

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Maybe a combo of Defense/Tactics/ Spellbreaker could be THE tank speck, take spellbreaker as how ever you want bruiser, tank, DPS but the main Mechanic Full counter is all about getting hit and the only way to be able to use it with good efficiency in PVE is if you are the one taking the hits, and the mechanic is defining for spellbreaker. Maybe they can do speck with variation, where you can pick full tank support or tank dps depending of the traitlines you take. It just little imagination and idea how SB could fit in with everything else without taking the same spot as Berserker.

Also allot of issues that SB and berserker have are mostly due to the core specialization and skills just not working in synergy, currently there is the DPS build and maybe the Support build for WvW, which is mostly taken for WoD and the utilities are there to give something of value for the zerg, the Warrior part of the speck you know the weapons and burst are not important, so it is yet another fail in the concept.  

Well, if you take my recommendations on the Marching Orders changes, then Tactics/Spellbreaker would have the basis for a tank/support role. Defense would just need a solid rework to make it fully happen.

[Vancho.8750]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Well, if you take my recommendations on the Marching Orders changes, then Tactics/Spellbreaker would have the basis for a tank/support role. Defense would just need a solid rework to make it fully happen.

That would be good, I just wish Warrior was more than you bring banners for PVE or you bring WoD for WvW  or you sidenode in PVP.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/11/2021 at 1:34 AM, Vancho.8750 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910

I think it is a wrong way of balancing it for PVE to just up its damage, Berserker is already THE DPS speck, if SB is comparable Berserker loses its point since SB is also a control speck. Yet another DPS speck is just pointless and boring way of looking at things. The way I see it SB is a tank archetype from any other game, but GW2 tanks also need to be supports of some kind to balance out the DPS loss. SB has been an option for support for WvW and PVP for a long time it just needs some help to get a reason to be in PVE.

The way I see it off hand dagger should get something like a block or dodge and at least on row of traitline should be about group support in some manner for example Guard Counter gives you protection what if it gave 5 people protection same with revenge counter and resistance, magebane already works with Phalanx Strength maybe work on that, maybe it should pull fury share from somewhere, and the meditations should probably be also support skills instead of the useless kitten that they are now. The only issue I find with the support war is banners since you will always have to carry them and you only one slot to play with, but if you don't have banners no one will take war in PVE, such terrible skills. SB just needs something that it can give out and exchange some other class for a spot in raids or fractals. 
I don't understand why people and Arenanet are so concentrated on the removing boon part and damage, mesmer has comparable boon removal in core traits and skills, I don't see people saying mesmer is about removing boons and that is all. SB has also good control options and defensive options, the kitten FC is all about getting hit how is that not sparking some thought that SB should be tank. If we look at another speck that got reworked into relevance, Scrapper, we can see that it doesn't need that much work to be good for something, maybe SB should have gotten the Alacrity boon instead of Mirage(why the kitten was mirage picked for that Chrono already gives Alacrity ).    

All I see with SB is a wasted concept, Arenanet spend too much time on nerfing it instead of reworking it with some kind of idea what SB should be in the boundaries of PVE, SPVP and WvW .    

I think the logic to Mirage getting Alacrity is that they felt that group alacrity should be a mesmer thing, but they didn't want one build being able to effectively provide both quickness and alacrity to the group. So chrono kept quickness and mirage gained alacrity.

 

Alacrity spellbreaker is certainly an interesting prospect, though...

[Vancho.8750]

34 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the logic to Mirage getting Alacrity is that they felt that group alacrity should be a mesmer thing, but they didn't want one build being able to effectively provide both quickness and alacrity to the group. So chrono kept quickness and mirage gained alacrity.

 

Alacrity spellbreaker is certainly an interesting prospect, though...

Any relevant support boon option would work, the group compositions just needs some classes that can take different roles , for a long time the comp was druid/chrono and warrior for banners(and might stacks) then it was FB/Renegade/Druid(they took er mighty jerbs) and warrior for banners, so for 10 man instance you took 2 FBs but this year they decided why not pluck some speck that is not relevant at all and give it something useful to do and quickness scrapper came to be.

Spellbreaker is a prime candidate for the support/tank Chrono role had and personally I think that was the idea when PoF launched, but they didn't develop the support part of SB, at best you can go is Magebane/Phalanx and tank the boss since FC is reactive skill and not really useful for DPS or support rotations, but does it tick enough boxes to be good enough for a group.     

[draxynnic.3719]

11 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Any relevant support boon option would work, the group compositions just needs some classes that can take different roles , for a long time the comp was druid/chrono and warrior for banners(and might stacks) then it was FB/Renegade/Druid(they took er mighty jerbs) and warrior for banners, so for 10 man instance you took 2 FBs but this year they decided why not pluck some speck that is not relevant at all and give it something useful to do and quickness scrapper came to be.

Spellbreaker is a prime candidate for the support/tank Chrono role had and personally I think that was the idea when PoF launched, but they didn't develop the support part of SB, at best you can go is Magebane/Phalanx and tank the boss since FC is reactive skill and not really useful for DPS or support rotations, but does it tick enough boxes to be good enough for a group.     

Yeah. "Relevant boon support" pretty much means alacrity or quickness, though. Being able to cap might for the (sub)squad is an advantage, but is generally something the team will still be able to figure out if it doesn't come from the support (heck, give warrior a reason to run boon duration and Phalanx Strength might make a comeback)

 

Of those two - given that the spellbreaker is mostly a mix of warrior with mesmer and dervish, and given that it has a focus on messing with the enemy's skills rather than just tearing into the enemy with autoattacks, alacrity just feels more fitting. Plus, quickness is already potentially covered by three professions with a fourth known to be on the way - we don't know what else is coming for PoF yet, but at the moment at least there seem to be less professions that can offer alacrity.

 

That said, apart from chronomancer, ArenaNet seems to have been mainly giving alacrity to professions that are limited by some resource apart from recharge themselves. Revenant still generally cares more about energy, and even mirages are limited by dodges. So it might actually be thief that is most likely to get group alacrity, since they get less direct benefit out of it.

 

That said, we should probably take this discussion into another thread if we're to continue, since it's well outside Cal's scope.

[Broxxgar.6801]

Spellbreaker was never a tank and will never be a support. Spellbreaker are exactly as its suppose to be. 'A specilized Warrior focused on disrupt the Enemy Spell line.' . If you are trying to make Spellbreaker a Shoutbreaker or Healbreaker, it will work because the game allows you to do whatever you want to do with your profession. But it won't work as was design by the Arena Net team and by that you can understand why Medidations don't really bring any boons to the party. Because the spec was not developed to be a support for team group, but  a disruptor for the enemy team.

One thing to remember is about the dual dagger concept of SB, you don't see normally in many combat system a tank spec with dual weapons.If you do research about dual wield combat system you gonna find that its a really hard kind of fight to learn, not all warrior could develop this.

[draxynnic.3719]

27 minutes ago, Broxxgar.6801 said:

Spellbreaker was never a tank and will never be a support. Spellbreaker are exactly as its suppose to be. 'A specilized Warrior focused on disrupt the Enemy Spell line.' . If you are trying to make Spellbreaker a Shoutbreaker or Healbreaker, it will work because the game allows you to do whatever you want to do with your profession. But it won't work as was design by the Arena Net team and by that you can understand why Medidations don't really bring any boons to the party. Because the spec was not developed to be a support for team group, but  a disruptor for the enemy team.

One thing to remember is about the dual dagger concept of SB, you don't see normally in many combat system a tank spec with dual weapons.If you do research about dual wield combat system you gonna find that its a really hard kind of fight to learn, not all warrior could develop this.

You don't normally see dual weapon specs with a powerful block/riposte effect on an 8s cooldown, and yet here we are.

 

Mind you, if you really do research on dual weapon combat, most games get it wrong. It's often presented as "make twice as many attacks" in games, but what usually happens is that one of the weapons is essentially being used as an ersatz shield when it isn't practical to carry a proper shield - you have one weapon being the primary offensive weapon, and the other being primarily used for blocks and parries (although obviously it can be used for opportunistic strikes if there's an opening).

 

Given that warrior already had a shield, historically speaking giving an offhand dagger to a defensive spec actually makes sense. Weapons like the main-gauche, swordbreaker, and trident dagger were explicitly made to have improved ability to block, parry, and bind an enemy's weapon. Of course, in GW2, every offhand dagger except ranger and necromancer is offensive in nature, but if we're bringing up real-world combat styles, an offhand dagger is usually likely to be a defensive implement. Actually, heck, come to think on it, spellbreaker offhand DOES have a defensive component, since Bladestorm reflects projectiles.

 

Ultimately, though, we are dealing with the elite specialisation that's in the game, and in practice... the thing that adding spellbreaker necessarily does to warrior is make it more tanky through the presence of Full Counter. You can set it up to be about boon removal as well, but if you use core weapons and stick to the central line of traits, you're basically just tanking. And hey... how many raid bosses, strike bosses, and fractal bosses have boons to strip to begin with? Some do, but not all, and 'boon removal' is common enough that it's not likely to secure you a place on its own.

 

Ultimately, spellbreaker is something of the warrior equivalent of scrapper - an elite specialisation whose biggest effect is to boost the character's survivability. And scrapper recently picked up a direct support role, after spending a long time as being used in support builds where the support all came from core and scrapper was used just because it enhanced survivability. Spellbreaker is in a similar situation: at the moment, if it's built for support, the actual support is coming from core and spellbreaker primarily just enhances survivability. If that changed for scrapper, though, it could change for spellbreaker.

 

It could also be a completely redundant idea because the new elite specialisation will bring a support build. We'll see in about a week.

Edited September 12, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[Broxxgar.6801]

33 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You don't normally see dual weapon specs with a powerful block/riposte effect on an 8s cooldown, and yet here we are.

 

Mind you, if you really do research on dual weapon combat, most games get it wrong. It's often presented as "make twice as many attacks" in games, but what usually happens is that one of the weapons is essentially being used as an ersatz shield when it isn't practical to carry a proper shield - you have one weapon being the primary offensive weapon, and the other being primarily used for blocks and parries (although obviously it can be used for opportunistic strikes if there's an opening).

 

Given that warrior already had a shield, historically speaking giving an offhand dagger to a defensive spec actually makes sense. Weapons like the main-gauche, swordbreaker, and trident dagger were explicitly made to have improved ability to block, parry, and bind an enemy's weapon. Of course, in GW2, every offhand dagger except ranger and necromancer is offensive in nature, but if we're bringing up real-world combat styles, an offhand dagger is usually likely to be a defensive implement. Actually, heck, come to think on it, spellbreaker offhand DOES have a defensive component, since Bladestorm reflects projectiles.

 

Ultimately, though, we are dealing with the elite specialisation that's in the game, and in practice... the thing that adding spellbreaker necessarily does to warrior is make it more tanky through the presence of Full Counter. You can set it up to be about boon removal as well, but if you use core weapons and stick to the central line of traits, you're basically just tanking. And hey... how many raid bosses, strike bosses, and fractal bosses have boons to strip to begin with? Some do, but not all, and 'boon removal' is common enough that it's not likely to secure you a place on its own.

 

Ultimately, spellbreaker is something of the warrior equivalent of scrapper - an elite specialisation whose biggest effect is to boost the character's survivability. And scrapper recently picked up a direct support role, after spending a long time as being used in support builds where the support all came from core and scrapper was used just because it enhanced survivability. Spellbreaker is in a similar situation: at the moment, if it's built for support, the actual support is coming from core and spellbreaker primarily just enhances survivability. If that changed for scrapper, though, it could change for spellbreaker.

 

It could also be a completely redundant idea because the new elite specialisation will bring a support build. We'll see in about a week.

I think you make a mistake, but its okay. Look at 'Riposte' Skill, its a Defensive skill or a Counter skill? It's block because is like you are putting your sword in front of you and is working like a shield to protect you, but it main purporse is a counter attack, that why when the enemy are near to you its riposte and apply bleed on them.

If we were talking about dual wield fight style you would agree that warrior should attack with both sword and counter with both sword, but this can't happens on the game because  the game has its limitations, as AA should be applied to MH and OH if we were really applying dual wield fight style. A dual wield fighter can attack and defend with both hands, but the defense of a offensive weapon is not good as shield.

Even when you talked about Spellbreaker being a  specialization that enhance survivability, its true. But his survivability is not to become a support. The survivability that spellbreaker receives is to allow him to pass the enemy defensive line, so he can breake them and to do this he need some kind of skills  that enhance his survivability and again you see 'Full Counter' as better version of  'Riposte' skill. They follow the same pattern, but sword apply bleed and the dagger hit the critical  points with strike dmg, so the 'Full conter' was design to absorve the next attack and counter with interrupt AOE, that are enhanced with traits that could apply slow,cripple and of course by nature remove boons. There is no any support on it. You are seeing support behaviour because of the core War skill that are enhanced by tatic traits. As the game allow you to play any kind of strategy you can do Shoutbreaker and Healbreaker. 

Even when you choose the mid traits, to allow SB to be tanker. This just happens because the spec already receive this survivability to force breake the enemy line.

And just for sure I'm talking about WvW and PvP. On PvE I don't think its seem to work there, because PvE just look for Tank, support and DPS.

 

 

Warrior core can do  better with shouts and heals them a Spellbreaker.


 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Broxxgar.6801

[draxynnic.3719]

Not sure where I'm making a supposed mistake there? Riposte is a technical term for an attack that follows a parry. There's a specific skill called 'Riposte', sure, but every skill which involves a block being followed by an attack is a parry/riposte combo. Including Full Counter.

 

The analogy with scrapper holds. Scrapper was formerly a bruiser that was pretty much only used on support builds because it enhanced survivability - just like spellbreaker is now. It's a melee specialisation that's designed to get in and disrupt the enemy through hard CCs (sound familiar?). To enhance its usefulness in PvE and WvW environments, it received a couple of traits that allowed it to also provide a desired form of support. However, it's still entirely possible to play it as a control-oriented bruiser with other traits. Just like most elite specialisations with support options can also be used purely aggressively with a different set of skills and traits.

 

I don't see why this couldn't happen with spellbreaker too. Yes, the theme is about fighting enemy spellcasters, but I don't think this means it HAS to be selfish. It could be in there throwing out disruption and boon removal effects...while ALSO buffing allies to help them resist enemy spellcasting, and providing a bit of alacrity so it's not just the spellbreaker breaking spells, but they're also helping their allies to use their interrupts, boon removals, and so on. Such an approach could mean that instead of being presented entirely as a lone wolf that goes after spellcasters on its own, it can also be the leader of an anti-spellcaster team.

 

It should obviously still be able to play the way it does now. But I don't think that the concept is incompatible with expanded support options. It's presented as warrior combined with a bit of mesmer and dervish, and guess what? Both mesmer and dervish have/had the ability to bring support to the table.

[Broxxgar.6801]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Not sure where I'm making a supposed mistake there? Riposte is a technical term for an attack that follows a parry. There's a specific skill called 'Riposte', sure, but every skill which involves a block being followed by an attack is a parry/riposte combo. Including Full Counter.

 

The analogy with scrapper holds. Scrapper was formerly a bruiser that was pretty much only used on support builds because it enhanced survivability - just like spellbreaker is now. It's a melee specialisation that's designed to get in and disrupt the enemy through hard CCs (sound familiar?). To enhance its usefulness in PvE and WvW environments, it received a couple of traits that allowed it to also provide a desired form of support. However, it's still entirely possible to play it as a control-oriented bruiser with other traits. Just like most elite specialisations with support options can also be used purely aggressively with a different set of skills and traits.

 

I don't see why this couldn't happen with spellbreaker too. Yes, the theme is about fighting enemy spellcasters, but I don't think this means it HAS to be selfish. It could be in there throwing out disruption and boon removal effects...while ALSO buffing allies to help them resist enemy spellcasting, and providing a bit of alacrity so it's not just the spellbreaker breaking spells, but they're also helping their allies to use their interrupts, boon removals, and so on. Such an approach could mean that instead of being presented entirely as a lone wolf that goes after spellcasters on its own, it can also be the leader of an anti-spellcaster team.

 

It should obviously still be able to play the way it does now. But I don't think that the concept is incompatible with expanded support options. It's presented as warrior combined with a bit of mesmer and dervish, and guess what? Both mesmer and dervish have/had the ability to bring support to the table.

Now you are talking correctly, but is not being selfish or lone wolf, its like his mission. He is doing that for his allies. He goes where his allies can't reach with easily. He sacrifice himself for his allies. About resisting the enemy spellcasting and provide protections to his allies a Core Warrior can do it better, he will just loose the 'Winds of Disenchament' because every other skill will be used to pop up the shouts.

The game allows you to play any strategy that you want but the design of the spec don't show to you that its a support that bring heals or boons to your allies. There is not even a single trait or SB line that buff your allies

The healbreaker or shoutbreaker is just a Core war with some SB skills. People won't accept it because they don't wan't be labelled as F2P account or still believe that elite spec are more strong than a core one.

With core warrior you can even put Def or STR trait, bring even more buffs and sustain to your allies. Until people free themselves from metabattle site you keep seeing a lot of complain on warrior section.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Broxxgar.6801

[draxynnic.3719]

There are core builds being used in sPvP. Some of them are even on Metabattle. Core guardian is currently the dominant sPvP support build.

 

Healbreaker is healbreaker because spellbreaker ultimately provides more survivability than core. Sure, you can do it with core, or even with berserker, but it works better with spellbreaker. In competitive modes, you want the supports to be tough so they can survive. In cooperative, if you're going to have a tank at all, it's usually a support because they give up less to achieve that tankiness.

 

You're arguing that spellbreaker couldn't be given more of a supporting focus because it doesn't have any now, but that doesn't mean it couldn't. Again, scrapper is the example here. Scrapper was pretty selfish apart from a couple of gyros - now it makes a real contribution to support builds. Spellbreaker, now... meditations pretty much only ever get used for zergs, and even then, they're only using Winds of Disenchantment and Break Enchantments. There's potential to rework some of the others, particularly Featherfoot which is generally eschewed over Berserker Stance.