Hammer Ele confirmed

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Where do you see the huge animations? For me something shouting huge animation would be equivalent to Meteor storm ...not something on less than 1s cast time.... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtuoso

 

This is not a big animation

 

This is a god forsaken big animation!

 

If you're going to troll me as usual, I should just block you at this point.

It's blatantly obvious when a dagger 3 AOE (Unstable Baldestorm) is coming, in fact even the tooltip calls it slow moving. Bladecall (dagger 2)  doesn't hit all the blades unless you are essentially point blank due to the fan effect. The AOE on the utility skill Rain of Storms (which is a DOT) and Sword of Decimation (which has 1.0 coefficient unless you hit someone CCed) also have large animations.

How I know this is because I updated every Virtuoso trait and skill during beta for the wiki. I personally tested Virtuoso about 8 hours , most of it in WVW.

 

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I have. It's still a power ranged oriented weapon and specialisation, which according to your hypothesis ArenaNet shouldn't even be attempting.

 

You seem to be pushing a double standard, expecting power ranged damage to be AoE projectile-less fire-and-forget skills, even though precious few condi weapons do that either. Ranger shortbow? Projectile, the second skill is a spread so you want to be at point blank to get all five hits on a single target, and all the other skills are utility, no AoE apart from piercing. Condi holo? Projectiles, and the unload-like skill in holoforge is a channeled projectile skill just like Unload. Condi renegade shortbow? Projectiles, although there are some skills that aren't, and did you know that power renegade shortbow is also a thing, and in fact the dominant renegade build in sPvP at the moment? Condi p/d thief? No less reliant on channeled projectile attacks than power p/p thief. Condi mirage? If anything more reliant on projectiles than power mesmers. Condi berserker warrior? Projectiles, apart from the burst skill. Scepter weavers, from what I've see, are more likely to be running power stats than condition stats.

 

So yeah, again, I don't see any credible evidence for the trend you're claiming.

How am I pushing a double standard?

Most elementalist skills are not projectile (save for autoattacks), they are kept in check by animations (Plasma Blast), cast time (meteor shower most notably), or delays (see Dragon's Tooth, Ice Spike, Phoenix, or Shatterstone for example). Expecting high damage projectiles would just mean the death of the spec outside PVE before it even hits because it would just be a glassier ranger or renegade that instakills itself to any reflects. It's more likely short DoTs are added in line with symbols on guardian or lava font (fire staff 2) on elementalist unless the skills have a channel time.

All I stated is in the past CoR on hammer rev was nerfed explicitly because it did not have a huge delay. Before it just cascaded and had 2s cooldown, now it does a fraction of the damage and has a huge rectangle with 8s cooldown.

If you read the threads on virtuoso most mesmer players consider the shatters to be quite poor due to the projectile nature and tracking.

The main reason renegade shortbow is dominant in PVP for revenant is because of the lack of damage split to PVP and the DPS boost in shiro. Bloodbane path is not split, neither is Spiritcrush. Sevenshot maintains most of its damage as well. Of course it also has large animations and a travel time.

[Obtena.7952]

On 9/11/2021 at 11:52 PM, Hannelore.8153 said:

The problem is they heavily nerfed Hammers on other classes precisely because they used to be heavily used.

No, you don't know why Anet nerfed hammers on other classes. You ASSUME that's why, but you don't know it for a fact. 

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you're going to troll me as usual, I should just block you at this point.

It's blatantly obvious when a dagger 3 AOE (Unstable Baldestorm) is coming, in fact even the tooltip calls it slow moving. Bladecall (dagger 2)  doesn't hit all the blades unless you are essentially point blank due to the fan effect. The AOE on the utility skill Rain of Storms (which is a DOT) and Sword of Decimation (which has 1.0 coefficient unless you hit someone CCed) also have large animations.

How I know this is because I updated every Virtuoso trait and skill during beta for the wiki. I personally tested Virtuoso about 8 hours , most of it in WVW.

 

How am I pushing a double standard?

Most elementalist skills are not projectile (save for autoattacks), they are kept in check by animations (Plasma Blast), cast time (meteor shower most notably), or delays (see Dragon's Tooth, Ice Spike, Phoenix, or Shatterstone for example). Expecting high damage projectiles would just mean the death of the spec outside PVE before it even hits because it would just be a glassier ranger or renegade that instakills itself to any reflects. It's more likely short DoTs are added in line with symbols on guardian or lava font (fire staff 2) on elementalist unless the skills have a channel time.

All I stated is in the past CoR on hammer rev was nerfed explicitly because it did not have a huge delay. Before it just cascaded and had 2s cooldown, now it does a fraction of the damage and has a huge rectangle with 8s cooldown.

If you read the threads on virtuoso most mesmer players consider the shatters to be quite poor due to the projectile nature and tracking.

The main reason renegade shortbow is dominant in PVP for revenant is because of the lack of damage split to PVP and the DPS boost in shiro. Bloodbane path is not split, neither is Spiritcrush. Sevenshot maintains most of its damage as well. Of course it also has large animations and a travel time.

I pretty much laid it out. You claimed that the examples of ranged power that I cited weren't good because they were subject to projectile destruction, required telegraphed channels, and/or only affected a single target. I demonstrated that the same 'problems' also applied to the ranged condition weapons you were citing as counterexamples. You're holding power ranged weapons to a higher standard than condition weapons. That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.

 

In truth, there's no trend to indicate that ArenaNet considers long-range condition application to cause less balance issues than long-range power damage.

[Infusion.7149]

36 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I pretty much laid it out. You claimed that the examples of ranged power that I cited weren't good because they were subject to projectile destruction, required telegraphed channels, and/or only affected a single target. I demonstrated that the same 'problems' also applied to the ranged condition weapons you were citing as counterexamples. You're holding power ranged weapons to a higher standard than condition weapons. That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.

 

In truth, there's no trend to indicate that ArenaNet considers long-range condition application to cause less balance issues than long-range power damage.

My point was high power damage at range always has a drawback. I don't know what you're trying to get at?

Condi has innate counterplay due to condi ramp and cleansing.

Even hammer revenant has obvious animations for phase smash and drop the hammer (which no longer has damage in competitive modes). Everything on elementalist staff has a tell. Those are the two main ranged power damage sources in WVW where projectiles are penalized heavily, which is why rangers/shortbow renegades/pistol thieves are far more common in PVP. If you don't think that's the case, why do people not run gunflame berserker warriors for example?

Edited September 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[draxynnic.3719]

That with the exception of the scourge outlier, ranged conditions have the SAME drawbacks. There's no evidence that ArenaNet thinks that ranged conditions don't need that counterplay just because cleanses exist. In fact, outside of zerg versus zerg fights, most people regard conditions as having LESS counterplay - cleanses will inevitably run out, and at least power builds need to remain in engagement range to finish you off, while condition builds can get you to expend your conditions, follow up with a second stack of conditions, and if they hit you with enough they can just disengage and let the conditions kill you (or at least weaken you enough that you'll be easy to finish off in a followup strike).

 

Your claim that a hypothesised weapon that has ranged and melee attunements would be more likely to have the ranged attunements be condition focused just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. ArenaNet has demonstrated no trend of eschewing ranged power in favour of ranged conditions. Out of the two ranged-focused elite specialisations previewed for EoD thus far, in fact, they're evenly split with one being primarily power-oriented and the other being primarily condition-oriented.

 

What we CAN point to directly, however, is that Air and Water attunement traits are still useful at range (Healing Ripple being a support effect, and Lightning Discharge having 900 range). The Earth and Fire equivalents, by contrast, are both PBAoEs, making them more suited to being melee-oriented attunements. This isn't a guaranteed prediction, of course, but I think it's better than a baseless claim that ArenaNet prefers ranged damage to be condition-oriented over power.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That with the exception of the scourge outlier, ranged conditions have the SAME drawbacks. There's no evidence that ArenaNet thinks that ranged conditions don't need that counterplay just because cleanses exist. In fact, outside of zerg versus zerg fights, most people regard conditions as having LESS counterplay - cleanses will inevitably run out, and at least power builds need to remain in engagement range to finish you off, while condition builds can get you to expend your conditions, follow up with a second stack of conditions, and if they hit you with enough they can just disengage and let the conditions kill you (or at least weaken you enough that you'll be easy to finish off in a followup strike).

 

Your claim that a hypothesised weapon that has ranged and melee attunements would be more likely to have the ranged attunements be condition focused just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. ArenaNet has demonstrated no trend of eschewing ranged power in favour of ranged conditions. Out of the two ranged-focused elite specialisations previewed for EoD thus far, in fact, they're evenly split with one being primarily power-oriented and the other being primarily condition-oriented.

 

What we CAN point to directly, however, is that Air and Water attunement traits are still useful at range (Healing Ripple being a support effect, and Lightning Discharge having 900 range). The Earth and Fire equivalents, by contrast, are both PBAoEs, making them more suited to being melee-oriented attunements. This isn't a guaranteed prediction, of course, but I think it's better than a baseless claim that ArenaNet prefers ranged damage to be condition-oriented over power.

Cleansing sigil exists in WVW but in PVP it is nerfed to 1 condition only. Also good luck trying to get condis to stick without cover conditions against most roaming builds. Anyone that is actually half decent will cleanse any singular condition build such as burn guardian after Eternal Armory changes. The common prot holo / spellbreaker all have on weapon swap or photon forge dropping condi clears ; professions such as thieves use unhindered combatant + shadow step / signet of agility,  and aura tempests have plenty of clears as well as core guardians and most necros. Ultimately the weakest class with respect to conditions is mesmer , but the side mirage build uses Elusive Mind. In a group scenario you're looking at null field and scrappers as well as any support spellbreakers , aura tempests, etc.

Do you know scourge condis were nerfed quite a few times because shades were hitting 10 targets at one point?

We'll see but it seems you're getting quite worked up about it when it hasn't even been previewed. Historically fire attunement and earth attunement have been condi focused in some fashion, see sword , dagger, or scepter. In fact scepter is only used on condi weaver, you don't use it on power weaver : power tempest only uses scepter for warhorn purposes.
 

I would temper your expectations if you think there will be a high power coefficient that is ranged and isn't gated by some of the following limitations:

* a delayed damage (see Shatterstone)
* DoT rather than instant (see wells, Thunderclap, etc)
* easily interruptible channel time (see rapid fire , meteor, etc)
* a super obvious animation
* a self-root (see barrage, meteor,etc)
* an extremely long cooldown (25s+)
* projectile

Edited September 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Merrex.5384]

Ele already has a 2H ranged weapon its called Staff.  which for a mage arch type character Staff should be Great but instead its total Garbage. I can imagine Hammer will be just as slow and totaly useless. To many of the ele traits and skills need to be reworked before they bother to put in a new weapon. Hoe about we fix the old ones first. Yah Yah I know you must make all new EOD stuff super OP so that everyone buys it.

[Alrik Steinfaust.7015]

To bring in some positivity here. I am really hyped for Ele Hammer. Greatsword would have been cool too, but Hammer will also be neat ❤️
Can't wait for the playstyle to be revealed. I hope we can mash things with big hammers xD

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Cleansing sigil exists in WVW but in PVP it is nerfed to 1 condition only. Also good luck trying to get condis to stick without cover conditions against most roaming builds. Anyone that is actually half decent will cleanse any singular condition build such as burn guardian after Eternal Armory changes. The common prot holo / spellbreaker all have on weapon swap or photon forge dropping condi clears ; professions such as thieves use unhindered combatant + shadow step / signet of agility,  and aura tempests have plenty of clears as well as core guardians and most necros. Ultimately the weakest class with respect to conditions is mesmer , but the side mirage build uses Elusive Mind. In a group scenario you're looking at null field and scrappers as well as any support spellbreakers , aura tempests, etc.

Do you know scourge condis were nerfed quite a few times because shades were hitting 10 targets at one point?

Any half decent condi build will just apply more conditions after the cleanse gets used, unless it's one of the rare builds that delivers conditions in a long-recharge spike and the target times the cleanse just right.

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

We'll see but it seems you're getting quite worked up about it when it hasn't even been previewed. Historically fire attunement and earth attunement have been condi focused in some fashion, see sword , dagger, or scepter. In fact scepter is only used on condi weaver, you don't use it on power weaver : power tempest only uses scepter for warhorn purposes.
 

I would temper your expectations if you think there will be a high power coefficient that is ranged and isn't gated by some of the following limitations:

* a delayed damage (see Shatterstone)
* DoT rather than instant (see wells, Thunderclap, etc)
* easily interruptible channel time (see rapid fire , meteor, etc)
* a super obvious animation
* a self-root (see barrage, meteor,etc)
* an extremely long cooldown (25s+)
* projectile

And as I've explained, the same applies to ranged condis. Heck, now you've brought "super obvious animation" and "DoT rather than instant" into your list of limitations, you've excluded condi scourge as well (even before we consider that conditions are by nature DoT, but I'm reading between the lines and assuming that by DoT, you mean a persistent DoT field).

 

Everything's going to have balancing factors of one form or another. But there's no trend to suggest that ArenaNet considers ranged condition damage acceptable but not ranged power damage. Your list of limitations applies just as equally to ranged condition damage, but somehow you seem to think that ranged conditions are limitation-free while listing virtually every limitation in the game when it applies to power damage. This is the double standard I was talking about - you're claiming that ranged power damage is bad because it has limitations while ignoring that the ranged condition damage you're presenting as counterexamples also have the same set of limitations.

 

Your argument that the hypothetical some-attunements-ranged, some-attunements-melee hammer would have the condition-based attunements being the ranged attunements because ArenaNet is somehow allergic to ranged power damage remains baseless.

[covahlam.6391]

I merely dabble in elementalist, but I'm really hoping for a revenant-inspired spec. Primarily ranged but with a port or two and damage reduction built into the traits and utilities. For such a "high magic" class, elementalist strangely lacks shadow steps.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

Ignoring the negative nancies above, im excited for hammer. It could be introduced in a few different viable ways. It good be aoe ranged, which would be fun tho we do have staff. Could be something like a stronger staff but only 900 range.

 

It could be a powerful 0-range, 240-360 radius around caster aoe weapon, essentially turning eles into mobile aoe bombs. 

 

It could be a good roaming weapon with lots of interrupts/disables and blocks (we dont have a ton of blocks) and add in extra mobility. 

 

They could go several fun ways with it, and likely it will be different than everyone is saying. 

[Infusion.7149]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Any half decent condi build will just apply more conditions after the cleanse gets used, unless it's one of the rare builds that delivers conditions in a long-recharge spike and the target times the cleanse just right.

And as I've explained, the same applies to ranged condis. Heck, now you've brought "super obvious animation" and "DoT rather than instant" into your list of limitations, you've excluded condi scourge as well (even before we consider that conditions are by nature DoT, but I'm reading between the lines and assuming that by DoT, you mean a persistent DoT field).

 

Everything's going to have balancing factors of one form or another. But there's no trend to suggest that ArenaNet considers ranged condition damage acceptable but not ranged power damage. Your list of limitations applies just as equally to ranged condition damage, but somehow you seem to think that ranged conditions are limitation-free while listing virtually every limitation in the game when it applies to power damage. This is the double standard I was talking about - you're claiming that ranged power damage is bad because it has limitations while ignoring that the ranged condition damage you're presenting as counterexamples also have the same set of limitations.

 

Your argument that the hypothetical some-attunements-ranged, some-attunements-melee hammer would have the condition-based attunements being the ranged attunements because ArenaNet is somehow allergic to ranged power damage remains baseless.

You wrote that "fire and earth will be melee oriented attunements" or something along those lines. I merely suggested that it would be more likely the weapon is all roughly the same range with fire/earth being condi and air/water being either with DoT or some sort of severe delay drawback (see Ice Spike). This is evident on staff.

Even on tempest , the overload fire + overload earth are condi-oriented in some fashion.

 

Probably a misunderstanding on your part.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Blaeys.3102]

Just because hammer behaves one way for another class doesnt mean it will be anything like that on ele. Just look at GS from Warrior to Mesmer.  

[Arolandis.8360]

Baaaatttteerrrr up!

 

Really looking forward to seeing what this ends up like. The purple in the background signifies a hammer swing and with the little floaty thing my first thought is "baseball", lol. I just hope it's WvW viable or has lots of different build potential. Seems like they've been trying to hone specs into more specific build types these past few years and I have more fun when I can make weird/crazy builds.

[Naneel.2348]

On 9/10/2021 at 10:12 PM, Batel.9206 said:

I admit: I wanted a greatsword (or rifle or longbow), but I'm curious to see what hammer ele's like! Maybe it'll be a spec that I, with the reflexes and dexterity of a sleep-deprived snail, could actually play without dying every five seconds... 😜 (Seriously, I have problems with ele. It's the one class I cannot wrap my mind around for some reason.) In any case, can't wait to try it out!

I wish for the exact same thing, also having "sleep-deprived snail" Reflexes 😋

[Noel Vheurdrakkhein.3096]

As an Ele player, I'm just praying they don't make this upcoming elite spec another stupid 'Up close brawler'. And specially not liking what I'm seeing so far; especially regarding how every other spec so far is so heavily mobility based. I do NOT like the idea of getting constantly thrown around by just using my own skills.

We're Elementalists. We're mages. Scholars. The squishiest of the squishies (in terms of health and overall durability as far as I'm aware). What in the hell are we doing up close and personal?

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

24 minutes ago, Noel Vheurdrakkhein.3096 said:

As an Ele player, I'm just praying they don't make this upcoming elite spec another stupid 'Up close brawler'. And specially not liking what I'm seeing so far; especially regarding how every other spec so far is so heavily mobility based. I do NOT like the idea of getting constantly thrown around by just using my own skills.

We're Elementalists. We're mages. Scholars. The squishiest of the squishies (in terms of health and overall durability as far as I'm aware). What in the hell are we doing up close and personal?

We wave our wooden swords doing pasta damage with different color flavoured skills until enemy will die of laughter.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Is it weird that my preeminent thought is how hot my ele will be with Juggernaut equipped?

[Eraden.8740]

18 hours ago, Noel Vheurdrakkhein.3096 said:

As an Ele player, I'm just praying they don't make this upcoming elite spec another stupid 'Up close brawler'. And specially not liking what I'm seeing so far; especially regarding how every other spec so far is so heavily mobility based. I do NOT like the idea of getting constantly thrown around by just using my own skills.

We're Elementalists. We're mages. Scholars. The squishiest of the squishies (in terms of health and overall durability as far as I'm aware). What in the hell are we doing up close and personal?

I quite agree. It almost seems like the developers are somehow afraid of giving elementalists a good long range spec. I still think a hammer is esthetically unpleasing for elementalists. As you say, we are mages, scholars and the squishiest of the squishies. 

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

20 hours ago, Noel Vheurdrakkhein.3096 said:

As an Ele player, I'm just praying they don't make this upcoming elite spec another stupid 'Up close brawler'. And specially not liking what I'm seeing so far; especially regarding how every other spec so far is so heavily mobility based. I do NOT like the idea of getting constantly thrown around by just using my own skills.

We're Elementalists. We're mages. Scholars. The squishiest of the squishies (in terms of health and overall durability as far as I'm aware). What in the hell are we doing up close and personal?

You kind of contradict yourself. If you don't want to be up close, you need lots of mobility skills to keep away. Teleports, evades, backwards rolls, etc. Unless it's another weapon that is only useful in a zerg and you can sit in the back and fire... but you still will need mobility skills for that even. 

[Downstate.4697]

On 9/11/2021 at 1:01 AM, FrownyClown.8402 said:

This is spot on I feel. The floating orb is a celestial sphere that represents the longitude and latitude of the universe. Eternal alchemy borrows this idea with magic. The central sphere is surrounded by the different dragon magics. Whats interesting to me is that each color represents opposing forces and the purple and red background of the teaser is actually two opposing force color schemes. Also the 4 elements share themes with dragon magic. My theory is the celestial ministry used dragon jade as a catalyst for this floating orb and the different types of magicks will interact in some way. If we are called celestials ill cry.

This aged well.