Nerf Necromancer

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

On 11/24/2021 at 8:24 AM, Arheundel.6451 said:

Well....accordingly to necro main, Harbinger is super squishy....the gw2 community is something else for certain

After listening to peoples reaction to the betas im convinced that 90% of the playerbase has little to no understanding of class design & balance. There are even some people with gizmos that have terrible game knowledge outside of the few builds they are mechanically skilled at.

[Morwath.9817]

5 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

You're right; Necro does need to be tanky. But it doesn't need to be as tanky as it currently is. Reduce the damage reduction in shroud to 25% and it would be fine. A whole second health bar with 25% damage reduction is PLENTY, esp when they get to back it up with fear chain, lots of cover condis, a couple TPs, etc. 

...and what will you give Necromancer in return?

Because if you want to make class higher risk, it should've higher reward attached to it.

 

Personaly, if I would want to make Necro less popular, I'd just touch Lich Form and focus on buffing underpowered weapons/traits/utilities of other classes.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Morwath.9817 said:

...and what will you give Necromancer in return?

Necromancer doesn't need anything in return. It's already too effective and needs to be toned down.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Morwath.9817]

56 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Necromancer doesn't need anything in return. It's already too effective and needs to be toned down.

"Too effective" compared to who? Warrior?

Certainly not compared to other meta classes/specs.

 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

3 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

...and what will you give Necromancer in return?

Because if you want to make class higher risk, it should've higher reward attached to it.

 

Personaly, if I would want to make Necro less popular, I'd just touch Lich Form and focus on buffing underpowered weapons/traits/utilities of other classes.

I agree with @Fueki.4753; Necro is plain OP right now and needs to be brought down to the level of other professions. Once we see a normal 0-1 necros per team (like most other professions) instead of the 2-3 per team like we currently have, we'd be in a much better place to start buffing traits/skills/weapons that are underused--in other professions as well as in Necro.

 

I absolutely agree with you that the ultimate focus for balance should be improving the underused aspects of the game to improve diversity of playstyle, though. I want that more than anything else. But that is a huge undertaking and there's no chance of that before EoD comes out. A few strategic number checks to an overperforming profession, on the other hand, is very doable and would make a big difference in the current meta. 

[Dr Meta.3158]

Is it 1 to 2 necros every game in gold?

It may be beyond your skill level. But I'd suggest running power heralds. With enough knowledge of general burst combos you'll take care of your necro problem while being capable of handling other classes as well. You'll proceed to rank out of gold and then you won't see 2 necros every game anymore.

 

Me personally I'd recommend AT over the other game modes anyway. It's a lot more fun.

[Morwath.9817]

48 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I agree with @Fueki.4753; Necro is plain OP right now and needs to be brought down to the level of other professions. Once we see a normal 0-1 necros per team (like most other professions) instead of the 2-3 per team like we currently have, we'd be in a much better place to start buffing traits/skills/weapons that are underused--in other professions as well as in Necro.

 

I absolutely agree with you that the ultimate focus for balance should be improving the underused aspects of the game to improve diversity of playstyle, though. I want that more than anything else. But that is a huge undertaking and there's no chance of that before EoD comes out. A few strategic number checks to an overperforming profession, on the other hand, is very doable and would make a big difference in the current meta. 

The more necros you stack, the more you hinder your team against decent opponent due to low mobility making fast rotations hard. Necro has currently super high population, like Ranger. Certainly is tier above Ranger, but its not really superior comapred to other meta specs like Herald or Holosmith etc. 

[Leonidrex.5649]

14 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

The more necros you stack, the more you hinder your team against decent opponent due to low mobility making fast rotations hard. Necro has currently super high population, like Ranger. Certainly is tier above Ranger, but its not really superior comapred to other meta specs like Herald or Holosmith etc. 

necro doesnt have low mobility, unless several teleports, dash, perma swiftness is considered low mobility, then I guess everything is low mobility other then maybe a thief.

[Vancho.8750]

Personally I think the disengage tools on all professions should get some nerfs since everyone currently just resets every time when the kitten up , for example worm on necro just gives too much disengage one 32s cd, necro is not as tanky as people think, they just can't hit it if it kittens up and ports out, 60 seconds would be equal to elixir S, maybe with the long cd give it some defensive thing heal life force, condi cleanse on the port.

Lich is such garbage skill that is a death trap vs competent players, but it still can 3 shot them, I think it should be reworked into something still scary but based on skill combos instead of basic attacks (this also applies to  all such transform skill, tornado is also kitten since it spams aoe CC, people do not complain about it cause only like 5 people risk carpal tunnel to play ele these days) , there aren't that many skills that can burn defensive cds and some (lol some there is only core guard left from all the whining, very balance people good job and then they complain that the game is boring tztztz) supports can't be pressured. 

Minions need total rework since now they are kitten in all modes(afk farms lol), I think they should be made into more active skills , big value on the summoning and exploding it, maybe a trait that increases the damage of the current skitters when you summon a new minion but they shouldn't do much outside of that. The death nova trait should proc only on using the explode skill not when the minion is killed so you get some counterplay from killing them. The condi management traits in death magics are kitten quite frankly since you can't do kitten vs minion mancer with conditions, there are already traitlines for condi cleanse Death magic doesn't need it, it is better to remove them and maybe make a minion that has 100% condition damage reduction that pulls conditions to itself(1 or 2 maybe per person) when summoned and when you explode it they get transferred. Death magic PoF rework was not really well made for pvp like all PoF elites.

So many pages written and all boil down to "nerf Necro so I can one shot it like before cause I'm bad at the game and any fight longer than 5 seconds triggers my ADHD" . Backseat drivers all of you, warrior got kitten on cause you kitteners can't play the game for kitten, now its necro and then your class will be next you kitten noobs. It has been really long time and almost no one tries to counter necro even though everyone knows every skill they have and when they will use it. Everyone is waiting to get some AT build and be told how to play, even though ranked doesn't play the same since it is chaos because of no voice chat communication and people play some copy paste build from metabattle or something and are bad at it. Most of you here are probably in G2 or something judging from the comments, you are not good as Boyce or Sindrener you can't copy them play some simpler build it might not be all rounder like the AT META builds(most of them are based on 5 man communication)  but it doesn't need to be, it just need to be good at something, in this case CC a necro.   

Rant over.

     

[Fueki.4753]

8 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Certainly not compared to other meta classes/specs.

Taking meta and top end performance into consideration is where you went wrong.

The average, where the vast majority of players are, is the portion that needs to be considered.

And there, Necromancer is far too over-performing.

[Morwath.9817]

 

8 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

necro doesnt have low mobility, unless several teleports, dash, perma swiftness is considered low mobility, then I guess everything is low mobility other then maybe a thief.

 

Reaper has dash, not core Necromancer, not Scrouge.

Neither Flesh Wurm nor Spectral Walk can't be considered "teleports" as teleports you use to move between nodes, they are teleports that port you back. You don't have perma swiftness on any of meta builds, and to get good Swiftness uptime you've to waste Spectral Walk (so you lose both defensive teleport, condi cleanse and Shroud management), unless you trade offhand Dagger for Warhorn (which is used by some). I will add that if you use both FW and SW for "walking", then you're the easiest target to focus and burn down under the sun as you don't have disengage option or stunbreaks anymore, not any blocks/evades/invuls on your weapons as Necro doesn't have any.

 

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Taking meta and top end performance into consideration is where you went wrong.

The average, where the vast majority of players are, is the portion that needs to be considered.

And there, Necromancer is far too over-performing.

So, you want to make Necro bad on top end performance, because so called vast majority of playerbase prefers to whine rather than l2p? Because you know, the best way of countering Necromancer is outrotating him rather than rotating into him.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

5 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

 

Reaper has dash, not core Necromancer, not Scrouge.

Neither Flesh Wurm nor Spectral Walk can't be considered "teleports" as teleports you use to move between nodes, they are teleports that port you back. You don't have perma swiftness on any of meta builds, and to get good Swiftness uptime you've to waste Spectral Walk (so you lose both defensive teleport, condi cleanse and Shroud management), unless you trade offhand Dagger for Warhorn (which is used by some). I will add that if you use both FW and SW for "walking", then you're the easiest target to focus and burn down under the sun as you don't have disengage option or stunbreaks anymore, not any blocks/evades/invuls on your weapons as Necro doesn't have any.

 

So, you want to make Necro bad on top end performance, because so called vast majority of playerbase prefers to whine rather than l2p? Because you know, the best way of countering Necromancer is outrotating him rather than rotating into him.

Imagine if enemy have 3 necros in a team and you try to use your counter there, welp, bad news, whenever you go you'll run into one. Your counter is now worthless.
If enemy has 2 necros, good 2 points have 1 each, that means you can rotate to that 1 point and cap it, wait, it's your home one, welp atleast you have 1 I guess. Once again your counter is worthless.
I do have bad eyesight, but people on this forum are beyond saving.
Top end performance won't change much, beside the fact that it won't be abused and truly skilled individuals will be able to use it to the desired level.

[Fueki.4753]

40 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

So, you want to make Necro bad on top end performance, because so called vast majority of playerbase prefers to whine rather than l2p? Because you know, the best way of countering Necromancer is outrotating him rather than rotating into him.

It'd rather have a minuscule number of players have minor issues (which they can easily circumvent any, given their individual capabilities), than making the majority have an even worse experience than now.

It's not even issue of bothering to get better or not. It's an issue of providing more fun and satisfaction to as many people as possible. Pandering to the top end does not help with getting closer to this goal.

[Spellhunter.9675]

38 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Imagine if enemy have 3 necros in a team and you try to use your counter there, welp, bad news, whenever you go you'll run into one. Your counter is now worthless.
If enemy has 2 necros, good 2 points have 1 each, that means you can rotate to that 1 point and cap it, wait, it's your home one, welp atleast you have 1 I guess. Once again your counter is worthless.
I do have bad eyesight, but people on this forum are beyond saving.
Top end performance won't change much, beside the fact that it won't be abused and truly skilled individuals will be able to use it to the desired level.

You don't need to look for point without necro. You just need to outrotate them to get outnumber fights. Heck, why I have to tell that to you? 

[Morwath.9817]

34 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Imagine if enemy have 3 necros in a team and you try to use your counter there, welp, bad news, whenever you go you'll run into one. Your counter is now worthless.
If enemy has 2 necros, good 2 points have 1 each, that means you can rotate to that 1 point and cap it, wait, it's your home one, welp atleast you have 1 I guess. Once again your counter is worthless.
I do have bad eyesight, but people on this forum are beyond saving.
Top end performance won't change much, beside the fact that it won't be abused and truly skilled individuals will be able to use it to the desired level.

Playing against 3 necros is super easy as long as people have hands, as that means their are either lacking side noders (yes proper side noders will beat them 1v1), support (so you still can win group fights) or not enough roamers so they are always outnumbered somewhere 😛

 

  

2 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

It'd rather have a minuscule number of players have minor issues (which they can easily circumvent any, given their individual capabilities), than making the majority have an even worse experience than now.

It's not even issue of bothering to get better or not. It's an issue of providing more fun and satisfaction to as many people as possible. Pandering to the top end does not help with getting closer to this goal.

 

As I said it many pages ago, people will just mass play other meta choices that majority will hate pretty fast as those picks are much stronger than other options. The only thing you will achieve is reducing number of meta specs by one and making rest of them more dominant... and majority will still be unhappy.

[Leonidrex.5649]

2 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

 

Reaper has dash, not core Necromancer, not Scrouge.

Neither Flesh Wurm nor Spectral Walk can't be considered "teleports" as teleports you use to move between nodes, they are teleports that port you back. You don't have perma swiftness on any of meta builds, and to get good Swiftness uptime you've to waste Spectral Walk (so you lose both defensive teleport, condi cleanse and Shroud management), unless you trade offhand Dagger for Warhorn (which is used by some). I will add that if you use both FW and SW for "walking", then you're the easiest target to focus and burn down under the sun as you don't have disengage option or stunbreaks anymore, not any blocks/evades/invuls on your weapons as Necro doesn't have any.

 

So, you want to make Necro bad on top end performance, because so called vast majority of playerbase prefers to whine rather than l2p? Because you know, the best way of countering Necromancer is outrotating him rather than rotating into him.

?
reaper can get switftness by entering shroud.
core necro gets a teleport in shroud, teleport in lich form ( yes you can actually use other skills then auto, crazy ), teleport from wurm and teleport from spectral, and OFC a dash, if you combine those, reaper is actually WAY above average when it comes to mobility.
And kittening no, mobility is not only moving between nodes, if that was the case rev would be considered " not mobile "

[Spellhunter.9675]

9 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

 reaper is actually WAY above average when it comes to mobility.
And kittening no, mobility is not only moving between nodes, if that was the case rev would be considered " not mobile "

You are playing different game indeed.

[Pimsley.3681]

I do ok vs core MM and scourge if I focus on being oppressive. Core necro, full LF reaper, holo and d/p thief, I admit, I struggle against. Sometimes I alter fire trait if I know Im going against a good thief. 

 

Regards to necro, the class as a whole, I feel rangers and certain warrior builds can counter alright. Sadly, playing warrior to its full potential is not easy for me. 

 

Im humbled by the necro class as they can excel at team fights and do well in 2v2 situations. The carpal tunnel/arthritis inducing build I play does well in most 1v1, even 1vX, but can't really offer much in TF. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Pimsley.3681

[Leonidrex.5649]

25 minutes ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

You are playing different game indeed.

the one with 5necros per game 😄

[Morwath.9817]

7 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

?
reaper can get switftness by entering shroud.
core necro gets a teleport in shroud, teleport in lich form ( yes you can actually use other skills then auto, crazy ), teleport from wurm and teleport from spectral, and OFC a dash, if you combine those, reaper is actually WAY above average when it comes to mobility.
And kittening no, mobility is not only moving between nodes, if that was the case rev would be considered " not mobile "

Dash on core necro? If you're close, how do you "teleport" using Spectral Walk or Flesh Wurm on your walk to mid or far? SW will teleport you back to your initial position, not forward. Flesh Wurm has cast time and it really reduces "distance" of it (since you will move at least half of it while walking), tbh FW is useful to skip terrain or disengage and that is. It works as teleport only if you precasted it on the way before rather than on hard acceible piece of terrain to disengage/kite etc. 

 

All mobility you got on Necro is mainly for kiting, not for traveling, except Reapers charge. Which makes Necromancer class with lowest mobility, combined with no-iframes and both those can be exploited.

 

Rev is super mobile while walking between nodes as it has perma swiftness, access to superspeed for jogging, Reposting Shadows can be used as leap with rotate camera button and Odds allows you to use called target for teleport in their direction that ignore terrain on the way, similar to sword... 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[Leonidrex.5649]

3 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Dash on core necro? If you're close, how do you "teleport" using Spectral Walk or Flesh Wurm on your walk to mid or far? SW will teleport you back to your initial position, not forward. Flesh Wurm has cast time and it really reduces "distance" of it (since you will move at least half of it while walking), tbh FW is useful to skip terrain or disengage and that is. It works as teleport only if you precasted it on the way before rather than on hard acceible piece of terrain to disengage/kite etc. 

 

All mobility you got on Necro is mainly for kiting, not for traveling, except Reapers charge. Which makes Necromancer class with lowest mobility, combined with no-iframes and both those can be exploited.

 

Rev is super mobile while walking between nodes as it has perma swiftness, access to superspeed for jogging, Reposting Shadows can be used as leap with rotate camera button and Odds allows you to use called target for teleport in their direction that ignore terrain on the way, similar to sword... 

mobility is mobility, you are limiting mobility to " move between nodes " which is why you think necro is not mobile, and as I said, when you apply the same rules to mobile specs like power herald, they look immobile too, as sword 3/sword5/phase all need a target!
guess what, almost all classes deal with it.
Necro is a teamfight class, kiting mobility is what it needs and kiting mobility is what it has.
Also, I have never said core necro has a dash, I said it has a teleport which it does have ( shroud 2 lets you teleport to your target if you land it )

 

[Morwath.9817]

7 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

mobility is mobility, you are limiting mobility to " move between nodes " which is why you think necro is not mobile, and as I said, when you apply the same rules to mobile specs like power herald, they look immobile too, as sword 3/sword5/phase all need a target!
guess what, almost all classes deal with it.
Necro is a teamfight class, kiting mobility is what it needs and kiting mobility is what it has.
Also, I have never said core necro has a dash, I said it has a teleport which it does have ( shroud 2 lets you teleport to your target if you land it )

 

 

Do you know someone else can give you target when you play Revenant so you can rotate there super fast with targeted ports? Now, you should keep in mind Odds gives you +50% speed, Herald has pulsing swiftness and that Revenant have Rising Momentum that grants +5% speed for each upkeep point and you can get have up to -12 upkeep points in Herald (+60%) so you can jogg faster than superspeed... you can as well use Riposting Shadows with turn 180 camera hotkey and it will grant you swiftness as well due to Rapid Flow. Certainly not "immobile" at all, but I guess you don't play Revenant.

 

[Gamble.4580]

You guys do realise that necro being a peel killer keeps rev thf dh eng at bay. Nurf necro then u can't play anything but meta because rev eng and the will delete anything and every build. Necro alows you to play ele rng and off meta builds because of the peel on the top 4 dps have to watch for necros fear corrupts that stop them deleting every other build in team fights. Necros strong but needed. To keep the game from getting meta or nothing. I am happy for lich to go tho. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Gamble.4580

[Leonidrex.5649]

4 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Do you know someone else can give you target when you play Revenant so you can rotate there super fast with targeted ports? Now, you should keep in mind Odds gives you +50% speed, Herald has pulsing swiftness and that Revenant have Rising Momentum that grants +5% speed for each upkeep point and you can get have up to -12 upkeep points in Herald (+60%) so you can jogg faster than superspeed... you can as well use Riposting Shadows with turn 180 camera hotkey and it will grant you swiftness as well due to Rapid Flow. Certainly not "immobile" at all, but I guess you don't play Revenant.

 

nice bias, apparently revs around the world are fast because swiftness LOL, guess what, necro has swiftness too.
Also movespeed doesnt stack so I dont know where you got that faster then superspeed bull lol.
Flat out without targets reaper is MUCH faster then rev, worm + dash + perma-swiftness outruns rev. So I guess in your world thats reaper being more mobile then rev?
But those are semantics, doesnt matter. Mobility is EVERYTHING combined, rev is fast cuz low cooldown targeted teleports, and their shiro port that teleports through walls for over 1200 range.
And if necromancers cant use their spectral walk to be " mobile " its more on them being bad then necro not having mobility.

[Morwath.9817]

6 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

nice bias, apparently revs around the world are fast because swiftness LOL, guess what, necro has swiftness too.
Also movespeed doesnt stack so I dont know where you got that faster then superspeed bull lol.
Flat out without targets reaper is MUCH faster then rev, worm + dash + perma-swiftness outruns rev. So I guess in your world thats reaper being more mobile then rev?
But those are semantics, doesnt matter. Mobility is EVERYTHING combined, rev is fast cuz low cooldown targeted teleports, and their shiro port that teleports through walls for over 1200 range.
And if necromancers cant use their spectral walk to be " mobile " its more on them being bad then necro not having mobility.

 

Spectral Walk gives no out of combat mobility, except swiftness. About not stacking move speed values, Rising Momentum stacks with itself. And no, Reaper doesn't outrun Power Herald. Otherwise, you would see Reapers being played as roamers instead of Revenant...

 

You're right with one thing, it doesn't match superspeed (for some reason for me SS was 50% not 100%, idk why), to which Herald has access as well, but flipping Elite only for it may no be the best choice. - E3: Wrong, IO+RM=Superspeed. But it would also mean I was wrong, as maximum out of combat speed is 136%. So Rev is faster, while moving (excluding Shiro ports and talking run speed only) right after combat (so still technicaly in combat, especially with lingering condition making combat longer).

Edit: Btw I think RM stacks with other speed increases.

Edit 2: It does.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Morwath.9817