Have we seen what the Catalyst trade-off is?

[bluberblasen.9684]

6 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

...what exactly didnt I read here? I pointed out the 10 second ICD of the trait in my first post. You're the one pulling numbers out of the air saying its 15-30 second interval lol

 

yeah sorry its my bad english , i cant really explain waht i want to say..

give me some time i will try what i mean.

 

cooldown of wells is 15 seconds in PvE 

We dont know the numbers in PvP and WvW ( so i said 15 - 30 second )

 

So your example was earth field.

 No one " camps " earth line more than a few seconds,  so you are changing your attunements.

The wells cooldown is 15 second in PVE with cast time and no interruption your  "fastest" way for a new reflexion aura is = 16 seconds and thats only when you throw you earth field at once after the recharge of the wells.

 

The only way to get more than one reflexion aura is to stand in earth field ( with earth attunement ) or run back to your stationary well when earth attunement is recharged. 

This could work in pve and maybe in small points in pvp but not in wvw. 

 

 

[Exzen.2976]

3 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

ele has already plenty of tradeoff compared to other professions : low HP, melee range focus, no weapon swap......what are the real tradeoff on other professions like : engineer with scrapper and holosmith? -no tradeoff here either , guardian with dragon hunter and firebrand? - the elite virtues are better version of the core virtues in most cases...those are actually 2.0 versions...and I could go on and on

As someone else said, the trade off should be vs the core spec - gain something lose something. Tempest doesn't have a trade off so there's literally no reason not to run tempest over core ele. Weaver kinda does, with not being able to freely switch between attunements. I'm not suggesting that we should nerf tempest or catalyst into the ground lol, just pointing out a fact. If anything, the best solution would be to give core ele something that Tempest/Catalyst doesn't have access to. I believe they did something like this for core Rev? I'm not in disagreement with you that there are plenty of other specs with a reasonable trade off too (all elite specs should have them), you can post your complaints about these in their own profession sub forums if you want. Ele balance vs other professions shouldn't come into a discussion about trade offs for e-specs, as its a very different issue.

[fuzzyp.6295]

1 minute ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

 

yeah sorry its my bad english , i cant really explain waht i want to say..

give me some time i will try what i mean.

 

cooldown of wells is 15 seconds in PvE 

We dont know the numbers in PvP and WvW ( so i said 15 - 30 second )

 

So your example was earth field.

 No one " camps " earth line more than a few seconds,  so you are changing your attunements.

The wells cooldown is 15 second in PVE with cast time and no interruption your  "fastest" way for a new reflexion aura is = 16 seconds and thats only when you throw you earth field at once after the recharge of the wells.

 

The only way to get more than one reflexion aura is to stand in earth field ( with earth attunement ) or run back to your stationary well when earth attunement is recharged. 

This could work in pve and maybe in small points in pvp but not in wvw. 

 

 

So this is where the confusion is coming from. You are thinking specifically with the Jade Sphere Fields and Hammer, but I am referring to the Trait as it applies to all the Weapons.

You're right, if you're running a Hammer Catalyst your only fields will be linked to your Jade Sphere. However, that is not how the trait only works. It is listed so that you can gain an aura whenever you combo, not just when you combo with the fields of the Jade Sphere. This is one of the problems with Hammer Catalyst right now, that none of the Hammer Skills or Utility bring out an combo area. When you are playing a Hammer Catalysts, yes, fields ARE linked directly to the Jade Sphere.

But this is not true if you're running any other Elementalist Weapon set or if you're running with another player who can drop fields. That is because you will get an Aura whenever you Combo, not JUST when you combo with the Jade Sphere Field.

Here is an example on D/D:

 

1) You start in Earth and Blast a Fire Field with Dagger 4. You get Might/Magnetic Aura.
2) Then you roll and Blast with your Evasive Arcana Trait. You just get Might not the Aura because your Trait is on Cool Down.
3) Switch to Water and Blast with Frozen Burst. You get Might and a Frost Aura because the trait is only on cool down for Earth, not Water.
4) After 10 Seconds have passed from the first time you were in Earth, you swap back in and use Dagger 5 to blast the field again. Since its been 10 seconds, you will get another Magentic Aura plus Might.

So, yes, while Hammer Cataylst may be limited to a Magentic Aura ever 15 seconds it is only if they rely on their own fields. If you run any other weapon set or have someone else in your party who can drop a field, you have access to frequent magentic auras.

[Arheundel.6451]

3 hours ago, Makuragee.3058 said:

I main engi and yeah we have a tradeoff: Both Holo and scrapper loose acces to the elite toolbelt "F5" scarpper loose about 200 vitality and his class mechanic dpes not work with condi. Holo, can remove 50% of his HP if the player make a mistake in heat management wich is a huge tradeoff.

Those are not trade off.....who cares about f5 when you gain access to holoforge? and -200 HP on a medium armor class?....like from 15k to 13k...while gaining all the tanky goodies from scrapper, where engis are able to play tank bruiser while launching grenades from afar...

[Blazing Rathalos.1904]

22 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Those are not trade off.....who cares about f5 when you gain access to holoforge? and -200 HP on a medium armor class?....like from 15k to 13k...while gaining all the tanky goodies from scrapper, where engis are able to play tank bruiser while launching grenades from afar...

The point is you lose something from the core profession, which is the dev's stated goal for each elite spec. This really isn't even a balance question, so your comments on whether the trade is worth it or not are irrelevant to this discussion.

[Arheundel.6451]

11 minutes ago, Blazing Rathalos.1904 said:

The point is you lose something from the core profession, which is the dev's stated goal for each elite spec. This really isn't even a balance question, so your comments on whether the trade is worth it or not are irrelevant to this discussion.

It's always about balance and not the personal feelings of what players consider fair and as you put it :"whether the trade is worth it or not are irrelevant"...Tempest gets double CD on overload use so double punishment for being a tempest over a simple core ele...and weaver get double attunement CD...catalyst (which you haven't even played yet) works around an energy mechanic.

Now whether or not the trade off ele get don't allign with your biased vision....it's irrelevant to the discussion you're trying to create, if instead you want to discuss whether or not ele trade off are fair in your books then ...yes that's a balance discussion and I will mention if the "trade offs" other professions get are actual fair

Outside ranger and warrior...I don't see that much trade off to all the rest I'd say and yes ele trade off are more in line with the idea of "losing something" than a necro, guardian, thief, mesmer, and especially engineer

Edited September 20, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[draxynnic.3719]

12 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's always about balance and not the personal feelings of what players consider fair and as you put it :"whether the trade is worth it or not are irrelevant"...Tempest gets double CD on overload use so double punishment for being a tempest over a simple core ele...and weaver get double attunement CD...catalyst (which you haven't even played yet) works around an energy mechanic.

Now whether or not the trade off ele get don't allign with your biased vision....it's irrelevant to the discussion you're trying to create, if instead you want to discuss whether or not ele trade off are fair in your books then ...yes that's a balance discussion and I will mention if the "trade offs" other professions get are actual fair

Outside ranger and warrior...I don't see that much trade off to all the rest I'd say and yes ele trade off are more in line with the idea of "losing something" than a necro, guardian, thief, mesmer, and especially engineer

You are kinda missing the point here.

 

While tradeoffs are a balancing factor, how much you give up is not what defines a tradeoff. It could well be giving up something pretty minor. The idea, however, is to have something that can be buffed directly without being something the elite specialisations can pick up and just use themselves. This can be done by setting up synergies between the core traitlines (this is why core guardian manages to be the most used core spec despite a lot of people screaming about core virtues not giving up enough compared to what they get), but having some mechanic that core has that the elite specs don't provide another lever (in guardian's case, for instance, buffing the core virtues provides a means of buffing core guardian if needed without also buffing any of the elite specialisations).

 

You're also confusing tradeoffs for taking a specialisation, versus tradeoffs for using an ability. Overload increased recharge is a tradeoff for using an ability, not for taking the elite specialisation. The rule of thumb here is... if you never use the ability, can you just play the elite specialisation as if it was the regular profession? The answer for Tempest is a definite "YES!". Avoid the traits that specifically relate to overloads (there's at least one major trait that does so at each level) and just never use overloads, and you can behave just like a regular elementalist with access to shouts and warhorn. As a bonus, you still have access to overloads if you choose to use them, but you can also choose not to and have no so-called "double punishment". The only thing you give up to take tempest is core specialisation #3.

 

Now, compare that to, say, holosmith. As soon as you slot the holosmith elite specialisation, you immediately lose access to your elite toolbelt. It's gone. Doesn't matter if you never activate holoforge, you will never be able to use that feature of core engineer. That's a tradeoff for taking an elite specialisation on engineer. For the record, though, the risk of overheating is NOT a tradeoff for taking holosmith. That's a risk inherent in using holoforge, but that makes it a tradeoff for holoforge, not for taking holosmith as a whole: you can avoid overheating by being conservative with holoforge or just not using it at all.

 

Catalyst, presently, does not appear to have a tradeoff. You could argue that it's weak, but there does not appear to be anything that you lose from core elementalist, except the opportunity to have a third core traitline, simply because you choose it. This does not mean it's overpowered - as I discussed earlier in this thread, the truth is probably more that core elementalist needs some sort of special mechanic, similar to core revenant's Ancient Echo, rather than taking something away from catalyst or tempest.

[BlackBeard.2873]

The tradeoff is that you are still an ele. 😂

[bluberblasen.9684]

44 minutes ago, BlackBeard.2873 said:

The tradeoff is that you are still an ele. 😂

i know what you mean ..

but the reality is thats not really wrong.

 

weaver, tempest and now with catalyst all have the one "extra" thing.

maybe core element is again the problem and needs something special.

 

Anyway i have the feeling that catalyst should be the " real core" elementalist. 

 

 

 

 

[InsaneQR.7412]

7 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

To be fair, Tempest has no trade off either.

It has the minor trait off that you lose access to an attunement when you overload it.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by InsaneQR.7412

[InsaneQR.7412]

I think catalyst has the tradeoff of needing energy for their class mechanic. So it is a price in a vacuum. Something that needs to be fullfilled to be used but doesnt effect core at all.

 

Maybe that or the attunement CDs are just a bit longer idk...

[Nsuidara.3649]

Tradeoff  = "Elementalist"

You need broke your hand for CLICKs tons of keys in keyboard... one mistake you lose TOP DPS...
where others spec. have easy rotation skills...

Stop complain about tradeoff...

1) Catalyst need energy,  30 energy max, 2 energy per second (we don't know how many hits need... or if deploy still regeneration)
2) Change attum. dont refresh energy, developer used CHEAT

[Downstate.4697]

The trade off is once you run out of energy youre just a core ele for 15s

[Arheundel.6451]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You are kinda missing the point here.

 

While tradeoffs are a balancing factor, how much you give up is not what defines a tradeoff. It could well be giving up something pretty minor. The idea, however, is to have something that can be buffed directly without being something the elite specialisations can pick up and just use themselves. This can be done by setting up synergies between the core traitlines (this is why core guardian manages to be the most used core spec despite a lot of people screaming about core virtues not giving up enough compared to what they get), but having some mechanic that core has that the elite specs don't provide another lever (in guardian's case, for instance, buffing the core virtues provides a means of buffing core guardian if needed without also buffing any of the elite specialisations).

 

You're also confusing tradeoffs for taking a specialisation, versus tradeoffs for using an ability. Overload increased recharge is a tradeoff for using an ability, not for taking the elite specialisation. The rule of thumb here is... if you never use the ability, can you just play the elite specialisation as if it was the regular profession? The answer for Tempest is a definite "YES!". Avoid the traits that specifically relate to overloads (there's at least one major trait that does so at each level) and just never use overloads, and you can behave just like a regular elementalist with access to shouts and warhorn. As a bonus, you still have access to overloads if you choose to use them, but you can also choose not to and have no so-called "double punishment". The only thing you give up to take tempest is core specialisation #3.

 

Now, compare that to, say, holosmith. As soon as you slot the holosmith elite specialisation, you immediately lose access to your elite toolbelt. It's gone. Doesn't matter if you never activate holoforge, you will never be able to use that feature of core engineer. That's a tradeoff for taking an elite specialisation on engineer. For the record, though, the risk of overheating is NOT a tradeoff for taking holosmith. That's a risk inherent in using holoforge, but that makes it a tradeoff for holoforge, not for taking holosmith as a whole: you can avoid overheating by being conservative with holoforge or just not using it at all.

 

Catalyst, presently, does not appear to have a tradeoff. You could argue that it's weak, but there does not appear to be anything that you lose from core elementalist, except the opportunity to have a third core traitline, simply because you choose it. This does not mean it's overpowered - as I discussed earlier in this thread, the truth is probably more that core elementalist needs some sort of special mechanic, similar to core revenant's Ancient Echo, rather than taking something away from catalyst or tempest.

I think you're using your own interpretation of "trade off" to hold the discussion, even more you're confused about your own interpretation. If we assume that trade off translate to "lose something", to gain something of far more value completely offset that very idea of losing anything, in that instance no F5 compares to holoforge, and for that very reason I'd suggest you to use a better example then holosmith which is basically an engi 2.0.

 

To claim that Overload recharge is not a tradeoff "because you can chose not to use it" is...nonsense really, it's actually the only HoT elite after berseker  where you can literally stop the ele from even using that very mechanic and where you need to specifically trait, to get a chance at using that very mechanic in the first place.

 

You can't just go and talk about trade off in a vacuum without considering everything else including balance...that's how it may work on a forum, certainly not at Anet.

 

Also, the OP made a thread to whine and cry about a spec which has not even been played , nowhere he talks about core ele and how to improve it : "Most elite specs lose something from the Core profession (even if what replaces it is better"

 

There is no argument there....just a typical whine thread

[Exzen.2976]

1 hour ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

It has the minor trait off that you lose access to an attunement when you overload it.

 

 

Ha, so it has a cooldown after using a skill that you can choose to either use or not use? Nah, that's not a trade off at all. It is a straight buff over core ele. 

 

Just to reiterate, I do not want tempest nerfed, just pointing out a fact. 

 

Buff core ele!

Edited September 20, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[fuzzyp.6295]

9 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

Ha, so it has a cooldown after using a skill that you can choose to either use or not use? Nah, that's not a trade off at all. It is a straight buff over core ele. 

 

Just to reiterate, I do not want tempest nerfed, just pointing out a fact. 

 

Buff core ele!

I still hold that the 'trade off' between the classes is flexibility For Core. Elementalist you have no limits as to why you may want to swap between attunements other than the current situation and cooldowns. Tempest requires you to camp in these attunements for a bigger pay off, meaning that even if you're taking a lot of damage, if you want that Air Overload you gotta stick through it without healing in Water. And then you are locked out of it for a longer period of time. Weaver has the other issue where the attunement skills you need may not be ready on the rotationa s you hop between different elements.

I don't... really think they're the best trade offs but its really the only thing I could ever think of as one lol

[Exzen.2976]

6 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I still hold that the 'trade off' between the classes is flexibility For Core. Elementalist you have no limits as to why you may want to swap between attunements other than the current situation and cooldowns. Tempest requires you to camp in these attunements for a bigger pay off, meaning that even if you're taking a lot of damage, if you want that Air Overload you gotta stick through it without healing in Water. And then you are locked out of it for a longer period of time. Weaver has the other issue where the attunement skills you need may not be ready on the rotationa s you hop between different elements.

I don't... really think they're the best trade offs but its really the only thing I could ever think of as one lol

I kinda get your point... but there is honestly never a reason to play core ele over tempest.

 

Tempest can also have the flexibility to hop between the elements. If you choose not to use the overloads, you can do exactly the same as a core ele, which actually gives you even more flexibility than core ele.

 

Tempest currently doesn't have a trade off.

 

And I think nearly everyone can agree core ele could use some love.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[Sigmoid.7082]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I think you're using your own interpretation of "trade off" to hold the discussion, even more you're confused about your own interpretation. If we assume that trade off translate to "lose something", to gain something of far more value completely offset that very idea of losing anything, in that instance no F5 compares to holoforge, and for that very reason I'd suggest you to use a better example then holosmith which is basically an engi 2.0.

 

 

Problem is photon forge fits the definition of what Anet would consider a trade-off, precisely because it can't use F5 for the toolbelt skills but its lost to gain access to photon forge. 

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/52184-game-update-notes-april-23-2019/?tab=comments#comment-838697

 

Quote

Elite specializations were introduced with the Heart of Thorns™ expansion and have become a regular sight throughout Tyria. These specializations have sometimes come with trade-offs, and sometimes they've been purely beneficial compared to a core specialization, often because they add something on top of everything the profession already does. We believe that elite specializations are a more meaningful choice when they have some trade-off or change some core part of a profession's mechanics.

 

You may argue photon forge is more useful than a toolbelt skills but in the eyes of Anet that is what they would consider a trade-off. 

 

It really is a fact that whether the change is better or not is an issue of balance, but when it comes to what is lost and what is gained Anet has a definition of what a trade-off is, that for some reason players keep failing to understand. Things like "its not a trade-off because firebrands virtues are better than core"...technically, according to Anets own definition, it is. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Sigmoid.7082

[Widmo.3186]

Catalyst tradeoff is turbo boring/predictable gameplay with turbo boring/ugly weapon.
Mark my words. 

[Arheundel.6451]

52 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

I kinda get your point... but there is honestly never a reason to play core ele over tempest.

 

Tempest can also have the flexibility to hop between the elements. If you choose not to use the overloads, you can do exactly the same as a core ele, which actually gives you even more flexibility than core ele.

 

Tempest currently doesn't have a trade off.

 

And I think nearly everyone can agree core ele could use some love.

It's safe to assume that your idea of "trade off" is not applied to ele atm or ever because....you don't see pvp matches with 6-7 tempests out of 10 players and neither you see 50 tempest clearing a pve world event like scourges, which following your line of thought has a trade off. You can keep using your ideology in a vacuum..but balance is what it is

[Ragnarox.9601]

Actually this is first hammer that is usefull after the scrapper hammer. Cant wait to dust off my Juggy and Mjolnir just for him after 3,4 years. 

[Sigmoid.7082]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's safe to assume that your idea of "trade off" is not applied to ele atm or ever because....you don't see pvp matches with 6-7 tempests out of 10 players and neither you see 50 tempest clearing a pve world event like scourges, which following your line of thought has a trade off. You can keep using your ideology in a vacuum..but balance is what it is

I think you're the one here getting confused between balance and Anets stated defintion if what they mean when they say trade-off. 

 

Scourge may not be balanced, but by the definition set out by Anet themselves it has a trade-off.  It's also quite clear the ideology isn't the same as yours sinve scourge has issues yet it's still considered to have a trade-off by Anet nonet he less. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Sigmoid.7082

[Avead.5760]

3 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

There is always that subject that starts throwing personal insults....as they attempt to win a so called argument on a videogame forum online while protected by anonymity , that's my daily good action I guess.

But considering this talk about IQ..tell me....this game has been out for like 9 years now and you should have realized by now that nerfs/buffs don't really do much (if at all) for the average player, all that change are builds and gameplay styles, you will still lose to same better players regardless of what they play

After all your position is still the same as 9 years ago...you know I am right, I mean this class has been nerfed several times..and yet here you are and yeah they will keep nerfing/buffing this class like others and that still won't change your win rate ...am I wrong? xd

Hi. I am an ele main I was playing fresh air at way pre hot even when they buffed war and necro by introducing dhuumfire killing meta ele  s/d with old Valkyrie. Yeah that old. Pre hot I quit for 5-6 years and came back this year .

(Fun fact = even then you where here posting nonsense and every time it was comical.)

I don't give a kitten about how strong or weak it is I still will play it if it's fun.

I also have no issue maintaining steady mid plat 2 with it without going nuts over it and strictly soloqing 99% of  hundreds games per season for the last 3 seasons.

What are you trying to prove tho buddy.  How is that all relevant in any way with what I am saying??! xD

[Arheundel.6451]

25 minutes ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

I think you're the one here getting confused between balance and Anets stated defintion if what they mean when they say trade-off. 

 

Scourge may not be balanced, but by the definition set out by Anet themselves it has a trade-off.  It's also quite clear the ideology isn't the same as yours sinve scourge has issues yet it's still considered to have a trade-off by Anet nonet he less. 

You are free to believe so...I stand by what I have stated. It's not like nerf or buffs do really do anything for the average playerbase

[Aedil.1296]

Apologies but it's like Ele hasn't loose enough already? It unplayable for most people and you want to take away even more stuff? 

 

I dunno... 

 

Ele is supposed to be my main but can't use it anywhere literally, always on revenant/giardian/mesmer🙄