Bladesworn needs normal F1

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

They do the trade off for warrior properly because they can.

Anet designed themselves into a corner with engineer, there is not much they can do with the class to give it a trade off except adding more generic stat debuffs...

Taking away toolbelt? Replacing the elite toolbelt skill is fine, removing the entire toolbelt is not. This cripples the class to the point of it becoming dysfunctioning.

Weapon swap? Can't be taken away since we don't have one to begin with.

For engineer to get proper trade offs they have to rework the class either from the ground or they just add generic stat penalties, which kinda sucks if the trade off for every elite soec is always "have less of x stat"...

I mean, they could remove the entire tool belt.

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

So why is it always warrior that has to have the trade off properly done?

I'd argue all the new speccs have proper trade offs. 

 

Harbinger

- blight mechanic. 

- loss of health cushion. 

Virtuoso

- lower shatter damage. 

- lower survivability. 

- loss of clones. 

Willbender

- no permanant virtue effects. 

- lower sustain. 

- less damage.

Catalyst

None of the elementalists rly have trade offs. 

But still 

- loss of barrier. 

- utilities are weaker. 

- worse elite options 

Vindicator 

- 1 dodge. 

- utility only used every 2 casts due to swapping effect. 

Bladesworn

Fixed second weapon set. 

Loss of F1 bursts. 

What your comparing it to is PoF speccs and it lack of trade offs are the reason it's so bad. But what's spellbreakers trade off effectively..... Because it doesn't rly exist. 

Hence why you don't see core being used over its elite options realistically in competitive enviroments. 

 

 

[crewthief.8649]

4 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I'd argue all the new speccs have proper trade offs. 

 

Harbinger

- blight mechanic. 

- loss of health cushion. 

Virtuoso

- lower shatter damage. 

- lower survivability. 

- loss of clones. 

Willbender

- no permanant virtue effects. 

- lower sustain. 

- less damage.

Catalyst

None of the elementalists rly have trade offs. 

But still 

- loss of barrier. 

- utilities are weaker. 

- worse elite options 

Vindicator 

- 1 dodge. 

- utility only used every 2 casts due to swapping effect. 

Bladesworn

Fixed second weapon set. 

Loss of F1 bursts. 

What your comparing it to is PoF speccs and it lack of trade offs are the reason it's so bad. But what's spellbreakers trade off effectively..... Because it doesn't rly exist. 

Hence why you don't see core being used over its elite options realistically in competitive enviroments. 

 

 

Lack of tier 3 burst (regarding Spellbreaker trade-off)? 

Edited September 21, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[Kodama.6453]

42 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I mean, they could remove the entire tool belt.

Not without breaking stuff.

For example: med kit has the healing skill (bandage self) located on the toolbelt. Removing the entire toolbelt means removing this self heal skill, med kit stops working for this elite spec, because the only skill which heals yourself on that kit is vital burst which heals for 942 every 20 seconds... the other skills which heal are for allies only (med blaster, bandage blast).

What more? Toolbelt holds stunbreaks, which are pretty rare to find on skills. Removing the toolbelt means removing 3 stunbreaks from our arsenal (toolbelt of elixir gun, slick shoes and thumper turret).

Last but not least: for an elite spec to get used which removes our entire toolbelt, the mechanic we get for it has to be ridiculously powerful. Removing the toolbelt means to remove 27 skills from our arsenal to chose from (4 healing skill, 20 utility skill, 3 elite skill). I can't even start to imagine how powerful the class mechanic needs to be for this trade off to be even slightly worth it.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

19 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Not without breaking stuff.

For example: med kit has the healing skill (bandage self) located on the toolbelt. Removing the entire toolbelt means removing this self heal skill, med kit stops working for this elite spec, because the only skill which heals yourself on that kit is vital burst which heals for 942 every 20 seconds... the other skills which heal are for allies only (med blaster, bandage blast).

What more? Toolbelt holds stunbreaks, which are pretty rare to find on skills. Removing the toolbelt means removing 3 stunbreaks from our arsenal (toolbelt of elixir gun, slick shoes and thumper turret).

Last but not least: for an elite spec to get used which removes our entire toolbelt, the mechanic we get for it has to be ridiculously powerful. Removing the toolbelt means to remove 27 skills from our arsenal to chose from (4 healing skill, 20 utility skill, 3 elite skill). I can't even start to imagine how powerful the class mechanic needs to be for this trade off to be even slightly worth it.

But the trade-off would be that you have a different tool-belt with it's own skills, does it invalidate some skills yes, but it would still work, and you could get utilities with your stunbreak. Like you could be getting the Gundam elite spec that replaces the entire tool-belt. It's essentially what they did with BS like right now I can't think of a decent way to run a condition based build with what they gave us.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

45 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I'd argue all the new speccs have proper trade offs. 

 

Harbinger

- blight mechanic. 

- loss of health cushion. 

Virtuoso

- lower shatter damage. 

- lower survivability. 

- loss of clones. 

Willbender

- no permanant virtue effects. 

- lower sustain. 

- less damage.

Catalyst

None of the elementalists rly have trade offs. 

But still 

- loss of barrier. 

- utilities are weaker. 

- worse elite options 

Vindicator 

- 1 dodge. 

- utility only used every 2 casts due to swapping effect. 

Bladesworn

Fixed second weapon set. 

Loss of F1 bursts. 

What your comparing it to is PoF speccs and it lack of trade offs are the reason it's so bad. But what's spellbreakers trade off effectively..... Because it doesn't rly exist. 

Hence why you don't see core being used over its elite options realistically in competitive enviroments. 

 

 

Yeah, the current elites that is true, but how many of the other elites have tradeoffs like Berserker does?

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yeah, the current elites that is true, but how many of the other elites have tradeoffs like Berserker does?

Yeah warrior typically seems to get double dipped on tradeoffs when compared to others.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

40 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Not without breaking stuff.

For example: med kit has the healing skill (bandage self) located on the toolbelt. Removing the entire toolbelt means removing this self heal skill, med kit stops working for this elite spec, because the only skill which heals yourself on that kit is vital burst which heals for 942 every 20 seconds... the other skills which heal are for allies only (med blaster, bandage blast).

What more? Toolbelt holds stunbreaks, which are pretty rare to find on skills. Removing the toolbelt means removing 3 stunbreaks from our arsenal (toolbelt of elixir gun, slick shoes and thumper turret).

Last but not least: for an elite spec to get used which removes our entire toolbelt, the mechanic we get for it has to be ridiculously powerful. Removing the toolbelt means to remove 27 skills from our arsenal to chose from (4 healing skill, 20 utility skill, 3 elite skill). I can't even start to imagine how powerful the class mechanic needs to be for this trade off to be even slightly worth it.

I'm well aware of all those facts Kodama. One thing could be that they actually give you weapon swap, but take away the whole tool belt for it.

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

The tradeoff of taking away F1 seems fine with how it's treating ammo skills and building the spec around it.

The only tradeoff that doesn't make sense is back when Berserker had the normal F1 taken away. It was such a bad decision. Normal bursts need to be brought back on Berserker. It's insanity how crippled it is right now.

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'm well aware of all those facts Kodama. One thing could be that they actually give you weapon swap, but take away the whole tool belt for it.

What is weapon swap going to do for a class which just has access to 3 different core sets?

Weapon swap for ele, that would be powerful because of all the attunement skills and them having a better weapon pool. But a weapon swap for engineer does almost nothing since we simply don't have the weapon choices to make this a powerful mechanic for us.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said:

What is weapon swap going to do for a class which just has access to 3 different core sets?

Weapon swap for ele, that would be powerful because of all the attunement skills and them having a better weapon pool. But a weapon swap for engineer does almost nothing since we simply don't have the weapon choices to make this a powerful mechanic for us.

Hey, it's Anet. You could have Rifle + mace/shield, or Rifle +mace/mace as options for once.

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

But the trade-off would be that you have a different tool-belt with it's own skills, does it invalidate some skills yes, but it would still work, and you could get utilities with your stunbreak. Like you could be getting the Gundam elite spec that replaces the entire tool-belt. It's essentially what they did with BS like right now I can't think of a decent way to run a condition based build with what they gave us.

If the "new toolbelt" are 5 fixed skills, then it is a net negative for us.

With the loss of the toolbelt, we lose access to 27 skills and just get access to 5 new ones... a net negative of 22 skills. It is not the same as with bladesworn currently. With all the burst skills lost,  that's 7 burst skills you can't access. Gunsaber + dragon trigger gives you access to 10 skills in total (5 gunsaber skill + 5 dragon trigger skills). Which means a net gain of 3 skills.

[BlackTruth.6813]

Technically the dragon trigger is the F1/burst

 

The only problem is how do adrenaline traits interact with flow and does it affect flow. Would signet of fury even work with bladesworn's flow as well for example or berserker stance increase flow.

 

If it doesn't convert well, that could be a problem even if we do normal F1 as bladesworn. If it does convert then we may not need the normal F1 and be fine with just managing the ammo elite. Will also depend on how long of a charge is reasonable dragon trigger is before you fire it off.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

11 minutes ago, BlackTruth.6813 said:

Technically the dragon trigger is the F1/burst

 

The only problem is how do adrenaline traits interact with flow and does it affect flow. Would signet of fury even work with bladesworn's flow as well for example or berserker stance increase flow.

 

If it doesn't convert well, that could be a problem even if we do normal F1 as bladesworn. If it does convert then we may not need the normal F1 and be fine with just managing the ammo elite. Will also depend on how long of a charge is reasonable dragon trigger is before you fire it off.

This will have to be a major piece of our feedback and is part of why I'm siting in the Aerodrome all night tonight.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

5 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

If the "new toolbelt" are 5 fixed skills, then it is a net negative for us.

With the loss of the toolbelt, we lose access to 27 skills and just get access to 5 new ones... a net negative of 22 skills. It is not the same as with bladesworn currently. With all the burst skills lost,  that's 7 burst skills you can't access. Gunsaber + dragon trigger gives you access to 10 skills in total (5 gunsaber skill + 5 dragon trigger skills). Which means a net gain of 3 skills.

That's more skills than we have, plus our bursts all did different things (CC, condi damage, power damage, movement, boons), and we could move while bursting that's another trade-off that people haven't really mentioned being a trade-off.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

18 minutes ago, BlackTruth.6813 said:

Technically the dragon trigger is the F1/burst

 

The only problem is how do adrenaline traits interact with flow and does it affect flow. Would signet of fury even work with bladesworn's flow as well for example or berserker stance increase flow.

 

If it doesn't convert well, that could be a problem even if we do normal F1 as bladesworn. If it does convert then we may not need the normal F1 and be fine with just managing the ammo elite. Will also depend on how long of a charge is reasonable dragon trigger is before you fire it off.

Now that would be interesting to see. Zerker stance got 50% shafted with May 11 patch, so imagine if it's adrenaline gain function does not interact meaningfully with Flow (too few resource acquired, or something like increased Positive Flow of +1 or +2 range, whereas even +7 per pulse for 4 pulses would be too less).  Can they make it unplayable I wonder? 

 

Also, why not give Flow Stabilizer some AoE quick stab which warrior imo should have access to since we can also proc selfish aegis now? Seems like a good time to make us a bit more support-y if it's intended to be used in conjunction with Unshakable Mountain. Nothing too big. Some AoE 3 stacks stab. 

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

3 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Now that would be interesting to see. Zerker stance got 50% shafted with May 11 patch, so imagine if it's adrenaline gain function does not interact meaningfully with Flow (too few resource acquired, or something like increased Positive Flow of +1 or +2 range, whereas even +7 per pulse for 4 pulses would be too less).  Can they make it unplayable I wonder? 

 

Also, why not give Flow Stabilizer some AoE quick stab which warrior imo should have access to since we can also proc selfish aegis now? Seems like a good time to make us a bit more support-y if it's intended to be used in conjunction with Unshakable Mountain. Nothing too big. Some AoE 3 stacks stab. 

That's something that needs tested is all the adrenaline traits/skills. Like does rage signet give you 1 or more stacks of positive flow, do we get more positive flow on F1 swap. I'm guessing it's all extra positive flow not a boost of flow which kinda gimps signet of fury if you used that to get right into a burst at the start of a fight.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

7 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

That's something that needs tested is all the adrenaline traits/skills. Like does rage signet give you 1 or more stacks of positive flow, do we get more positive flow on F1 swap. I'm guessing it's all extra positive flow not a boost of flow which kinda gimps signet of fury if you used that to get right into a burst at the start of a fight.

Maybe it's staying effects. 

 

Zerker stance: +7 Flow for 4 s

SoF: active effect +25 Flow for 2s

Etc

 

 

[anbujackson.9564]

The way it is now, there is no way normal f1 will come back. How would they calculate the flow for this. 33/66/100 for 1/2/3? Uh.. 

 

Personally I think its awful that you need to have max stacks in dragon trigger to get a single t3 burst. Just look at how long you need for that. In worst case you get interrupted and you are back to 0.

Edited September 21, 2021 by anbujackson.9564

[Aaron.1294]

just make dragon trigger instant but also every skill dealing like 800 dmg at the very start maybe except dragon slash

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Aaron.1294