Stop trying making complex specs

[Widmo.3186]

Just what the title says, you (ANet) are in some weird mental state of thinking that ele is supposted to be not only piano, but also engineer (irl) level of design. And I can see same thing going for some other classes when you run out of ideas, or your ideas go into rabbit hole of...whatever.

You know what happened? You simplified Virutoso spec to oblivion, no clones, its a straightforward spec that just sends blades and deals damage. Meanwhile I spent 5 minutes reading briefly traits and what hammer skills do, theres so much information in it that felt like almost another Weaver spec. And fun part is that I had so much more fun playing Virtuoso which is straight forward than Catalyst which should have deeper meaning, but - spoiler alert - it doesnt. I got bored after playing it for another 5 minutes.

Why? Some things:
- another meele weapon but for the very first time I honestly cant see it fitting ele playstyle. Not only bad but also boring.
- its clunky as ALL OTHER HAMMERS IN THE GAME, except scrapper.
- animations are divided to 2 groups - one that look nice (hammer 3) and the other that look terrible, clunky and like highschool project on some scuffed engine (almost everything else). Like for real, have you seen those whirling animations? I dont know if theres any other animation in the game that makes your character look so stupid. Or maybe its just a placeholder, who knows.
- gameplay is ultra boring, its like combination of worst warrior skills (100blades + hammer skills)
- damage is straight up bad, not rewarding. Like okay, I see how "cool" it might look to stack all projectiles from 3 and then send them, but in competetive modes its barely working, you dont have time for this kitten, cast time is too slow and duration is too low. And also damage is too low.
- stacking energy for F5. Like...really? So small field with some boons, its like cheap scourge ripoff. And its supposted to be Catalyst ultimate ability? Dont make me laugh.
- I wont even start with utilities because its similar story, the elite at least seems kinda interesting
- half of traits interacting with auras. Really? I thought tempest was supposted to be aura spec, now here we go again? Nice.


I told you what its gonna look like before releasing Catalyst and imo everything fits. Boring, ugly and badly desgined. How about you spend less times of thinking about animations and instead:
- listen to community, almost everyone wanted range weapon such as bow, perhaps rifle, meanwhile we get one of the worst meele weapons
- make straight forward spec for once. I gotta say, Weaver was great and it feels amazing, but it was one time. You wont repeat that success and Catalyst is best example.
- think about making skills useful, fun to play and rewarding, instead of thinking how cool they look like. For the very first time while playing beta I was wondering "why the hell someone designed this skill like that". For example the air 2, like wtf, you really wanted to mindlessly put that torando there, didnt you?

PS: Im a PvP/WvW player and I wrote that from this perspective, idk how this spec gonna work with killing dragons, perhaps better than in our field. And no, Catalyst has nothing to offer in its current state even if you play it longer, its a meme spec just like most hammer-based builds in the game. If I could give a hint to ANet designing team Id say that they should delete Catalyst.exe and start over, probably would end better than trying to redesign current state.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[frareanselm.1925]

My impression its that catalist is a big aoe + support, but wont improve the damage of waver or support of tempest.

[Flori.2194]

25 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

If I could give a hint to ANet designing team Id say that they should delete Catalyst.exe and start over, probably would end better than trying to redesign current state.

 

It would probably be cheaper and faster than trying to fix all the problems this mess of a class has. 😄

[Crackmonster.2790]

Longbow please

[Puck.3697]

tbh the problem is the F5 mechanic and balance.

The gameplay feels good, the weapon is pretty strong in PvE at a minimum it does lack some tools it defintly could benefit gaining thats for sure.

All the new elites feel bad in SPVP. thats because these new elites feel like their built to compete with core proffessions... and HoT and PoF are just so far ahead of Core proffessions.. it Means these new Speccs are just irrelevant. there needs to be a trait or something that refunctions F5 to a alternative option realistically..

[scerevisiae.1972]

yeah i definitely thinking the designers are locked into some kind of design cliche where all ele specs require frequent attunement changes, all healing and cleanse skills are locked into water attunement, etc etc.

 

I was hoping for new style of gameplay with catalyst but it's really just the same thing all over again, just this time with a really bad profession mechanic.

[Junkpile.7439]

This game actually need more complicated specs. Like  you would have some point counter over every attunement and when you land that attunement skill you get one point. Then you would collect points and when you have point in every attunement you can use big nuke skill and more you have point more damage it does. 😄

Edited September 22, 2021 by Junkpile.7439

[Widmo.3186]

8 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

tbh the problem is the F5 mechanic and balance.

The gameplay feels good, the weapon is pretty strong in PvE at a minimum it does lack some tools it defintly could benefit gaining thats for sure.

Fixing F5 is like trying to extinguish burning skyscraper with a bucket of water. There are so many so obvious problems that its hillarious they decided to release Catalyst in this beta week. Ill go even further, I barely can see any good sides of catalyst. Damage is too low, traits went into wrong direction, lack of interaction between hammer skills and traits, utilities are worse than core, cooldowns are too long, duration of skills is too low, animations and cast times are bad and too clunky, survivability is bad. Theres not a single thing that makes this spec usable.
And I dont know in which world do you live in if you think gameplay feels good, after reading "Catalyst feedback" thread, for the first time in ages I see all people (PvP, WvW and PvE players) agreeing that its terribly bad. That means something.
 

Quote

All the new elites feel bad in SPVP. thats because these new elites feel like their built to compete with core proffessions... and HoT and PoF are just so far ahead of Core proffessions.. it Means these new Speccs are just irrelevant. there needs to be a trait or something that refunctions F5 to a alternative option realistically..

Disagree because theres necro espec, and I can see some others specs getting little bit of balance and being viable (mes, guard). Theres no such story with Catalyst and once again fixing F5 wont save it. Believing in this is like inhaling copium.

2 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

This game actually need more complicated specs. Like  you would have some point counter over every attunement and when you land that attunement skill you get one point. Then you would collect points and when you have point in every attunement you can use big nuke skill and more you have point more damage it does. 😄

Id like to have a "mathematician" spec. On the screen appear integrals to solve, if you succeed in time you get +100% dmg boost and if you fail you lose 15k hp. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[Puck.3697]

6 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

I dont know in which world do you live in if you think gameplay feels good, after reading "Catalyst feedback" thread, for the first time in ages I see all people (PvP, WvW and PvE players) agreeing that its terribly bad. That means something.

its rotation is very cool. lol.. lots of people agree.. theres a reason it hyped players seeing it.. the problem is it aint that strong

7 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Disagree because theres necro espec, and I can see some others specs getting little bit of balance and being viable (mes, guard). Theres no such story with Catalyst and once again fixing F5 wont save it. Believing in this is like inhaling copium.

Nah Virt is in the same boat. The mechanic is irrelevant so may aswell play core on any build ur gonna use with it realistically. they're all inferior to PoF Speccs..

Harbinger is better in SPVP Sure, but its still nothing compared to other choices realistically. theres a reason why everyones unhappy with all their elites.. lol

 

[Widmo.3186]

56 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

its rotation is very cool. lol.. lots of people agree.. theres a reason it hyped players seeing it.. the problem is it aint that strong

Nah Virt is in the same boat. The mechanic is irrelevant so may aswell play core on any build ur gonna use with it realistically. they're all inferior to PoF Speccs..

Harbinger is better in SPVP Sure, but its still nothing compared to other choices realistically. theres a reason why everyones unhappy with all their elites.. lol

 

Make me a favour and go through 10 pages of feedback thread again, you can skip comments made by accounts with 1-5 posts because of obvious reasons. Count the amount of "hyped" people compared to disappointed, dont forget to look at the likes too. And what rotation? You mean those projectiles from hammer 3 disappearing before you even use other skills? Yeah, cool xD

Of course its inferior, PoF specs been updated for last 4 years, nerfing and buffing, this is still beta. As an example I can give Mirage, during beta it was seen as okay-ish spec, which turned immediately into OP after release. Virtuoso wont have same treatment but its not terribly bad atm, Ive dueled on it with many people from PvP community and its viable, has it counters but also counters some builds which is good news even during beta state.

Again disagree, harbringer was really good (in terms of new beta spec) and fun to play, guard and mes obv less but it can be adjusted because whole design is not a ship with hundreds of holes. I agree that EoD especs are so far the worst out of all expansions, but Catalyst brought it to a new level. While you can say other specs are around core level, Catalyst is not even a half of core, its straight up downgrade which I dont know if can be even seen as meme spec.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[Puck.3697]

24 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Make me a favour and go through 10 pages of feedback thread again

only if u do me one

go to the necromancer or mesmer forums and look for hype on those speccs currently. because theres also none on those either, people think virt is the worst of the bunch and even a thread wishing it was half as thought out as Catalyst.

24 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

And what rotation? You mean those projectiles from hammer 3 disappearing before you even use other skills? Yeah, cool xD

you obviously dont know the rotation if u beleive thats all it is lol.. i didnt say the weapon didnt need work. its a beta.

24 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Of course its inferior, PoF specs been updated for last 4 years, nerfing and buffing, this is still beta. As an example I can give Mirage, during beta it was seen as okay-ish spec, which turned immediately into OP after release.

they're not built to compete with PoF Speccs.. u can very quickly see that by the lack of Skill bloat and more, they're built to compete with core proffessions by design realistically.

24 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Again disagree, harbringer was really good and fun to play

it wasnt really good.. lol it was Ok. but not really good.. the Specc werent doing that well v current meta builds

24 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

guard and mes obv less but it can be adjusted because whole design is not a ship with hundreds of holes. I

Really? Lol.. the fact virtuoso just doesnt have a mechanic flat and Does the same thing as Core is "adjustable".. no lol, virtuoso is terrible fundamentally... Guardian even in the most successful light will be a Unused Thief alternative.

24 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Catalyst brought it to a new level. While you can say other specs are around core level, Catalyst is not even a half of core, its straight up downgrade which I dont know if can be even seen as meme spec.

yeah because of current terrible balancing of the proffession lol. and f5 needing some level of a Rework.

news flash here.

Everyone thinks their mains new elite is the worse of the bunch, theres no hype Left around any of the ones revealed so far because no ones liking their direction... and theres no positivity of a forum surrounding anything.

it doesnt change the fac tthe actual stream where they previewed this.. Cata was hyped up alot.. and U did see a few posts saying it looks great.. it was only after we saw the balancing state of the proffession there was a problem.

however if Hammer was OP AF and we saw a Fresh air build returning through hammer the comments here would be very different..Hammer needs some Serious buffs Damage wise.. F5 needs to not Change when u change attunement. and needs to be reworked in some fashion to create some PvP use for it.

game needs complicated and simple options to appeal to a large crowd, Ele took the complicated Role.. mesmer has been made easier and easier over time effectively.. we saw this from the moment Mesmer gained a DPS Role based around Spamming dodge to upkeep alacrity.

maybe u like virts simplicity.. but i have heard multitudes of people complain about how simple virt is and boring it is to play. so clearly not everyones with u on the thoughts on to make Mesmer easier.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[DarkyllBonsai.3045]

did I just understand correctly that you criticize that a weapon per element gets 5 new speels which is the normal ele class fantasy? because you are too lazy to read? *Confused* 
where is this class complex? one more button?
the weaver is complex okay

can understand your criticism, except this 2 points i cant understand *Confused*  o.O

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

Imagine a massive hammer being clunky

[Puck.3697]

16 minutes ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

Imagine a massive hammer being clunky

I don't find the weapon that clunky in all honesty. The projectiles need to last longer and we need more sustain built into the weapon. + Accessibility to auras and alot of damage added to it in places.

It'd be fine with these changes effectively. 

[Crackmonster.2790]

Everyone could do everyone a huge favor by ignoring all talk of if numbers are viable first. Numbers are easy as kitten to increase until they make sense -  what really and truly matters is how the specc mechanically works and if a single person uses a numbers argument to say its a good build you are only shooting everyone in the foot.

Numbers can always be increased, make the specc mechnically satisfying and interesting first, and make that work, then tinker numbers in the end. yas.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Crackmonster.2790

[Widmo.3186]

1 hour ago, marcelmkay.6392 said:

did I just understand correctly that you criticize that a weapon per element gets 5 new speels which is the normal ele class fantasy? because you are too lazy to read? *Confused* 
where is this class complex? one more button?
the weaver is complex okay

can understand your criticism, except this 2 points i cant understand *Confused*  o.O

You dont see the point so let me rephrase it for you - the way they try to design and sell Catalyst to us is close to Weaver style. Lots of information that at first glance look complex and should be rewarding after you fully understand all mechanics and combos (just like Weaver) but the truth is that theres no such thing. Catalyst atm is like a puzzle box filled with puzzles, problem is that those puzzles come from 10 different sets so in the end you wont put them together.

Its not that Im too lazy to read all this sh*t they created, or that they should add one button, no. But what theyre trying to do is make overthought spec - you have aura traits, but lack auras from hammer. You have long channel of stupid whirling or 100blades skills and meanwhile you should rotate between attuns (just like weaver) to hold hammer 3. You should be meele spec but you lack survivability and cleanses (water 5? cmon). Again, you should rotate between attuns and meanwhile pay attention to make the biggest usage of new utilities and F5. And ofc meanwhile stack energy to put static F5 field which disappears in notime. 

Puzzles from different sets? But hey, maybe at least gameplay is rewarding, you have so many different things but maybe theyre at least useful....and heres the best part, they are not. Spec is clunky, with bad damage and even worse survivability. Thats why Id rather see it deleted and started over.



And dont get me wrong, I love complex classes and cant stand simple ones (warrior is the least played class by me in all games). I maxed Weaver to the limits with few k hours on it playing solely PvP gamemodes. Although difference between Weaver and Catalyst is that one is intuitive, rewarding, mechanical and the other is just disgusting and clumsy, like youd switch from Ferrari to Skoda. And thats not because of early state, but because of whole designed flooded with holes.

 

And thats why they should stop trying making complex specs, because they just dont know how to. It ends up that simplified specs without depth like Virtuoso (that should be boring) are way more fun to play than overthought Catalyst. Which is ridiculous.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[Gwynnion.7364]

You know, I love Elementalist, Engineer, and Mesmer.  I love that complexity.  But I also adored Virtuoso because it's straightforward, it fights at long range, it has AOE damage, and it's EASY.  It was not without problems but nothing was stopping them from doing something similar with Catalyst.  Elementalist already has two melee to medium range specs, and they do everything Catalyst does, only better. 

What the profession needed, IMO, was a comparatively "braindead" spec, not more melee-oriented, piano style, high risk, low reward game play but with even more things to keep track of.  They could have scored an easy win with a long range DPS spec with consistent weapon skills, elemental effects and empowerment on F1-F4 instead of attunement, and maybe a big nuke or something on F5.  Something more like Holosmith or Deadeye.  They would have had to redo all the weapon skills but it would have been only a little more work.  Give players a fast, easy spec to default to if they just want to have fun.  Heck, make it a rifle and it fits the fusion of magic and technology theme even better than Catalyst does!

That's not what we got, obviously, which is more of the same, but worse.

There's nothing wrong with simple sometimes.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Gwynnion.7364

[Doggie.3184]

Part of why I liked Tempest so much (is my favorite of the 1st elite specs next to Daredevil) was because it felt simplier and more straight forward than core D/D meta Ele and could make better use of ranged staff or scepter despite still forced into melee for overloads. I always felt D/D was very try-hardy where you're doing more effort mainly to show off rather than it actually having meaning back then. Scepter/Horn Tempest has some complexity with it's very long combo field and finisher spam but it's just all well organized and pretty easy to do still.

Weaver brings that try-hardy issue back into overdrive and despite it generally working and being neat and all, I just feel like it's excess effort for a payoff that I can just achieve easier on Tempest or a different class and just isn't worth it. What am I really getting out of playing Catalyst? It's the same exact gameplay but done worse and throws away all your survival.

I woulda just preferred a simple ranged magic bow or gun as the glass cannon spec instead to fill the only thing Ele specs can't do which is pure range DPS~ kinda like Virtuoso became. Virtuoso is actually the first time Mesmer felt fun to me. 

Bows/Guns (which are also underused weapons) could also offer fast ranged AoEs for once since Staff and Scepter's are so slow. The ones that hammer do are the only things unique about it currently. More of that please.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Doggie.3184

[BlackBeard.2873]

The reason you get this jumbled mess is because they are tacked onto a class that has underlying issues. So they come up with reasonable traits, like the old arcana fury trait, but it still isn't enough, so they tack something extra onto it, like energy gain. When that still isn't enough, they will take something else onto it until eventually it "sort of" makes up for all the downsides of being on a squishy class and not rewarding the risks you take. It is also why the whole spec just feels like a jumbled mess - their straightforward vision of what to make was either confused from the start or had inherent flaws.

Edited September 22, 2021 by BlackBeard.2873

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, BlackBeard.2873 said:

The reason you get this jumbled mess is because they are tacked onto a class that has underlying issues. So they come up with reasonable traits, like the old arcana fury trait, but it still isn't enough, so they tack something extra onto it, like energy gain. When that still isn't enough, they will take something else onto it until eventually it "sort of" makes up for all the downsides of being on a squishy class and not rewarding the risks you take. It is also why the whole spec just feels like a jumbled mess - their straightforward vision of what to make was either confused from the start or had inherent flaws.

To be honest, I'm not convinced Catalyst needs an energy mechanic. It really just feels like elementalist adrenaline and it punishes you for fighting a single opponent, while the 15s recharge provides a limit on how much it can be used. My understanding is that energy cannot be gained while the field is up, so you can't use energy gain to keep it up longer, and therefore the main effect (apart from punishing you when fighting single targets) is to prevent you from starting a fight by dropping a field.

 

Is the field really so strong that it would be OP if you could just drop it at the start of the fight? Probably not. Catalyst energy just seems to be an unnecessary added complication. Remove it, and replace references to it in traits with something a bit more useful.

[Poseidon.1839]

I'm disappointed Anet very disappointed... I thought we were getting some kinda enhanced / elemental shaman but what we got was total and utter failure...

 

As an ele main I am deeply saddened and disappointed...

 

The three skill on hammer should not be only on hammer the F5 every time you activate or disactivated you lose energy with which takes a long time to generate so I am being punished for no reason and the impact from F5 skill isn't even that significant I found myself playing catalyst 99% of the times without even using the F5 skill was just felt like playing core ele....

 

If you want an honest opinion like many others before me have said you should rework the whole thing....

[Puck.3697]

9 hours ago, Poseidon.1839 said:

I'm disappointed Anet very disappointed... I thought we were getting some kinda enhanced / elemental shaman but what we got was total and utter failure...

 

As an ele main I am deeply saddened and disappointed...

 

The three skill on hammer should not be only on hammer the F5 every time you activate or disactivated you lose energy with which takes a long time to generate so I am being punished for no reason and the impact from F5 skill isn't even that significant I found myself playing catalyst 99% of the times without even using the F5 skill was just felt like playing core ele....

 

If you want an honest opinion like many others before me have said you should rework the whole thing....

we likely wont get a rework.. they simply wouldnt scrap the entire concept.. it has potiental.

however imho i dont think it needs a full rework either, the F5 Mechanic defintly needs reworking, i ge tthe idea to give it some good access to needed boons, however it Simply is too 1 dimensional to find use in more then maybe 1 type of content. the game also needs to get some form of Bonus Vitality.

Hammer:

Earth needs to have Barrier Access

Water needs More healing capability.

Lightning and fire needs higher Damage.

Imho F5 should have been accessibility to multi-element attacks.. Where it took on a Fifth Attunement surrounding Mixed Magicals... Such as Frostfire, Water Tornados. Etc etc.

Change the F5 Skill to be the Elite Skill.. as a Offensive Support option.

 

 

 

[frareanselm.1925]

On 9/22/2021 at 6:57 AM, Junkpile.7439 said:

This game actually need more complicated specs. Like  you would have some point counter over every attunement and when you land that attunement skill you get one point. Then you would collect points and when you have point in every attunement you can use big nuke skill and more you have point more damage it does. 😄

But complicating specs goes against the "casual friendly" Anet philosophy

[Stallic.2397]

This spec isn't complicated. It's just clunky and all the buffs don't add up to anything. 

 

Hammer isn't fast enough to build energy in this spec. Core weapons actually build faster, which is surprising since hammer was released with catalyst. Anet should simply add more energy options in the traits. Probably the btm line which actually supports hammer/F5 mechanics 

 

Aura traits just need their durations increased. Hardened auras would work well at max stacks, but even with D/D that's hard to maintain consistently cause it's a 6sec buff. A core ele could just use Earth & Arcane traits to get endless Prot instead. Which is 33% damage reduction rather than a measly 10%. 

 

Boons of this spec need to be buffed. Catalyst isn't as reliable as Arcane. The quickness and resolution are nice but not nearly prevalent enough to build to anything useful. Change Jade Sphere so it stays the same element, but also Allow catalyst to deploy more than one sphere at a time (2-3 more likely). You can then have quickness wells, resolution wells, prot wells. Catalyst would be way less clunky.   

[Puck.3697]

23 hours ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

But complicating specs goes against the "casual friendly" Anet philosophy

Not rly. Because the games hardest content only requires you to perform at 50% of the proffessions ability.

Because of how easy they made the content itself complicated speccs are fine because the games created go ensure it doesn't matter if you learn the information.