no one plays raids

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, George.9745 said:

Like... I don't know. If I say anything about casuals I will get banned again. All I can say is that you are wrong. If you are casual play casual items. I grinded a lot for all legendary sets and went through a ton of effort and learning new classes to be as flexible as possible. Making them easier now would really upset me. Would make allmy grind useless. If any casual Timmy can get his legendary armor what's the point in grinding an MMO? Why would I even play this game anymore if someone playing 1hour/week can have the same stuff as me who plays 10h/ day. 

And this is what turns people off to MMOs. If the threshold for game completion is 10 hours a day, how do you maintain a player base?

So much of the bind MMO developers are in is trying to create things to keep people satisfied that can play games like a full time (or more) job. There’s no way to create that much content, so long grind is what we get.

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

For me, the problem is rather that Anet does not manage to continue content in general. I mean, even the story is so wishy-washy and has so many plot holes.
Anet is not good at creating content and taking it further. With EOD, they will continue to reinvent OW and instanced content 100% sure and then leave those inventions to the side. 

Anet would simply have to start to develop something continuously and not just neglect when a bit backlash comes, which will always come no matter what you do uu.

 

I mean, sure, I'd like to see more raids. I wish for a lot. Including, for example, that they find back to their old style and raids, fractals and OW are again bearable playable and not that everything must be an explosion of effects.

But I don't believe that there will be anything, just like I gave up believing that dungeons will be touched again. Or that Anet will stop making clothing sets instead of armor sets.

But that's why I understand the raiders here who don't want their content to be changed in any way. Because we know what Anet sees as a "change" and what you want as easy-mode, can backfire with Anet's idea very quickly if you look at past projects of Anet that they have "reworked".

The content for this "5%" of players could be ruined, which would then drive these people out of the game completely. While for PVE'ler nothing changes.
And that's just it. You have 97% of the game to yourselves. Why compete with 1% of the game, with the raids, only because you feel excluded from one thing, the legy armor? How old is GW2 now? 9 years? You got along 9 years without Legy armor and its advantages. So why this selfishness over one thing?

Wants rewards to be exclusive to 5% of the player base.

Calls other people selfish.

[Fuchslein.8639]

20 minutes ago, Raknar.4735 said:

Not sure how some kind of "easy-mode" would remove/ruin the current raids. It wouldn't change the current raids but it would give Anet an opportunity to create content for a higher % of players, which would then make it feasible to also reuse content that gets played by more and is then sustainable. Anet didn't stop developing raids due to backlash. They simply weren't sustainable with their small population.

That's why they're reinventing raids with strikes. Similiar to how all the other MMORPGs that focus on raiding have their raids in various difficulties, they're now trying the same with strikes in EoD.

Not sure how 97% of the game is for the "yourselves" (who are you including in this "yourselves"? Every non-raider? So PvP, WvW, OW etc. players?). Your percentages don't make any sense, unless you see it as "raiding and everything else". And even then it's sketchy. (I'm not even sure why you incorporated some of your subjective feelings about story in your first paragraph, when this has been about the sustainability of raids).

This isn't about selfishness at all. Anet obviously can't afford to develop more raids in their current state. You're trying to make every non-raider the scapegoat, just like in your first post on the topic, but they aren't at fault for why raids are the way they are and not being developed anymore. You can point your finger in the direction of every non-raider all you want, but that won't bring the unsustainable raids back. How selfish is it to want more content that can't even pay for itself?

 

Scapegoating others, that don't even touch raids, for the decline of raids isn't constructive at all for raids. I'd even say it is one of the reasons why raids are practically discontinued and replaced by strikes. Anet has noticed raids are unapproachable by the average player, that's why they've started with strikes. Strikes are to raids what Fractals are to dungeons. I'm just wondering why it took them this long. Another question is if it would be viable to revive the current raid format with changes (easy mode or something else), or if it is just not worth it at all, just like dungeons. 

 

The story part was an example ^^. And its not subjective, Plot holes in the story are visible even to laymen like me.

And because of the easy-mode. It's not just about an easy mode. If an easy mode were so simple, why would there be strikes and not simply raids in easy mode? With the "yourselves" I meant that, for me personally, gw2 consists of 97% PVE content. 1% instanced content like raids and fractals, 1% WVW and their modies and the same with PVP. I say it this way to make it easier for me since English is not my main language ^^.
When you don't like this, you don't have to answer. HF. And it is about selfishness. Because I was talking about Legy-Armor. The main topic of these discussions.
Because let's face it, people here in these disscusion don't want easy mode. They want an easy way to Legy-Armor, if you've read most of this thread and the several others that exist here.

And you say it yourself. Strikes are also not really played much. Do you think an easy mode to the raids would have then, or would change anything today?

Raids, PVP, WVW. These are all niche-content. And the people who always complain about it here in the forum are only about the rewards. They want the rewards, but don't want to play the content for them.

Because yes, there are not as many as in PVE, but raids are played.So active that even newcomers nowadays still find connection. So active that I with 0 LI a few months ago or so  could work my way up to my current 101 LI and that with weeks where I have not raided. So active that a friend of mine who is absolutely casual and hardly brings class understanding and dmg, could accumulate some LI because she just wanted to see the raids and the story behind them.

[yann.1946]

Just now, Gibson.4036 said:

No problem with wanting rewards and difficult content.

It’s wanting the best rewards tied exclusively to the content one enjoys I was commenting on.

Thats not really what you wrote, but sure. 

Its about prestige rewards to be in the game, like the skyscale for example,  the pvp gizmos, etc. Do you think it is a problem that these are tied exclusivly to one content.

Just now, Gibson.4036 said:

Of course raids would get good rewards. But I did, repeatedly, see it argued no one would do the raids if those rewards weren’t excludively the best in the game.

Thats because you are not are arguing in good faith with these arguments.

I could say in the same vain that people are saying that no content should have rewards as content that people wont play without the rewards is not worth developing.

(Its an argument that has been made in this tread btw) But that would not really be a charitable interpretation of the argument.

Just now, Gibson.4036 said:

It’s only a straw man if no one sctually made the argument.

Not completely, as you could find any opinion being voiced.

If you are making claims about the community you need more then a few people making an argument.

Just now, Gibson.4036 said:

I’d go back and find some examples, but I’ve found the the forum archive is really time consuming to search.

Fair, i would not really expect you to. But i will say when i dont think reality gets represented. 🙂

[Fuchslein.8639]

4 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Wants rewards to be exclusive to 5% of the player base.

Calls other people selfish.

Funny that you answer this and not the other thing where i asked what would happen, if anet would give pve Raid-rewardsn and Raiders pve-awards. 

 

Its the one thing to want rewards, no one would play a game whitout rewards. But its one thing to say that xy should not have specific rewards, although PVE itself has tons of them. And that in the most ugly ways here ... 

 

Btw, i said that i don't care, and this was just a try to emphasize, if you know what this is ^^.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Fuchslein.8639

[Klowdy.3126]

1 hour ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

For me, the problem is rather that Anet does not manage to continue content in general. I mean, even the story is so wishy-washy and has so many plot holes.
Anet is not good at creating content and taking it further. With EOD, they will continue to reinvent OW and instanced content 100% sure and then leave those inventions to the side. 

Anet would simply have to start to develop something continuously and not just neglect when a bit backlash comes, which will always come no matter what you do uu.

 

I mean, sure, I'd like to see more raids. I wish for a lot. Including, for example, that they find back to their old style and raids, fractals and OW are again bearable playable and not that everything must be an explosion of effects.

But I don't believe that there will be anything, just like I gave up believing that dungeons will be touched again. Or that Anet will stop making clothing sets instead of armor sets.

But that's why I understand the raiders here who don't want their content to be changed in any way. Because we know what Anet sees as a "change" and what you want as easy-mode, can backfire with Anet's idea very quickly if you look at past projects of Anet that they have "reworked".

The content for this "5%" of players could be ruined, which would then drive these people out of the game completely. While for PVE'ler nothing changes.
And that's just it. You have 97% of the game to yourselves. Why compete with 1% of the game, with the raids, only because you feel excluded from one thing, the legy armor? How old is GW2 now? 9 years? You got along 9 years without Legy armor and its advantages. So why this selfishness over one thing?

That's not quite true. Mounts have been expanded upon 3 times now. Elite specs are still being made. WvW is getting a little love (though not what it should get). Stats continue to be added, and new forms of gear (though I think they've hit the ceiling with gear, unless they change up their core ideas). LW episodes are still being made (no matter how the story unfolds, that system is still a cornerstone). Raids are being converted to something ANet deems "better" than the current state (based on the shift to strikes). A new profession is being added, bringing with it more content for another profession. 

 

You seem to be cherry picking things as if they aren't being used, when in fact, some are getting total overhauls (in the case of PvE endgame group content). Some things are worth it to the devs, and some aren't, I assume based on played metrics. 

 

I think the biggest issue with with PvE content, outside of meta events, which are in a great spot, is the devs want to improve content, without removing it. Fractals were their improvement on dungeons. Raids and improvement on that, and strikes an improvement/expansion on that. They could have completely altered dungeons from the start, but after removing S1, they saw how much disdain people had for that. 

[Raknar.4735]

51 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

 

The story part was an example ^^. And its not subjective, Plot holes in the story are visible even to laymen like me.

And because of the easy-mode. It's not just about an easy mode. If an easy mode were so simple, why would there be strikes and not simply raids in easy mode? With the "yourselves" I meant that, for me personally, gw2 consists of 97% PVE content. 1% instanced content like raids and fractals, 1% WVW and their modies and the same with PVP. I say it this way to make it easier for me since English is not my main language ^^.
When you don't like this, you don't have to answer. HF. And it is about selfishness. Because I was talking about Legy-Armor. The main topic of these discussions.
Because let's face it, people here in these disscusion don't want easy mode. They want an easy way to Legy-Armor, if you've read most of this thread and the several others that exist here.

And you say it yourself. Strikes are also not really played much. Do you think an easy mode to the raids would have then, or would change anything today?

Raids, PVP, WVW. These are all niche-content. And the people who always complain about it here in the forum are only about the rewards. They want the rewards, but don't want to play the content for them.

Because yes, there are not as many as in PVE, but raids are played.So active that even newcomers nowadays still find connection. So active that I with 0 LI a few months ago or so  could work my way up to my current 101 LI and that with weeks where I have not raided. So active that a friend of mine who is absolutely casual and hardly brings class understanding and dmg, could accumulate some LI because she just wanted to see the raids and the story behind them.

The story part is entirely subjective. It's a pity you can't seem to differentiate between your opinion and actuality.

There's no easy mode, because it would take developement time from other stuff, like for example strikes. Andrew Gray Mike Z already said so in an interview, the same one were he talks about the average player doing 10x less damage.

Your percentage numbers are made up and subjective, I already got that. I'm just not sure how made up numbers and percentages help any argument. English is also not my main language.

If it were noly about legendary armour, then OP would also have wanted a change to WvW and PvP. He specifically talked about raids. Raids are the main topic of these discussions. But you didn't even want to discuss, you wanted to scapegoat and blame some boogeyman you called "PvE-casuals" from the start. That's not constructive. So I'm going to give your quote back to you: "When you don't like this, you don't have to answer. HF."

Would an easy mode today help raids? Probably not, since Anet is already going all out on strikes as their replacement, as seen from the EoD preview. Raids are on the back-burner, if not dead like dungeons. In my opinion it is too late for raids. Anet is now trying the same thing they did with Fractals and dungeons: Leave raids for dead, give EoD strikes varying difficulty levels.

Raids are niche instanced PvE-content. PvP has a low playerbase, just like in any other MMORPG. Anet sees WvW as a neglected cornerstone of the game. That's why they're giving it more attention at the moment with alliances, reward reworks etc.. The people complaining about PvP and WvW mostly complain about balance & neglect and the complains come from mostly their respective population. I don't really see people complaining because they want the legendary backpieces from WvW and PvP, so your point is moot.

 

Yeah, raids are played by an incredibly small community. Anet themselves acknowledge that. They also acknowledge that raids aren't accessible to a lot of players. That's why they created strikes. That's why they're planning to give strikes varying difficulties in EoD. We've already talked about that. Your anectode about carrying a friend doesn't change that the average player doesn't touch raids at all. So no, it's not about selfishment. And if it were, I'd still call it less selfish than wanting more content of a type that can't even pay for itself and therefore has to take funds of every other gamemode.

 

Edit: I'd say this will be my last post on this topic. The discussion doesn't seem to advance due to obvious bias, subjectiveness and anecdotes and is just as unconstructive as your first post on this topic, where you called out your boogeyman/scapegoat.

 

52 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Wants rewards to be exclusive to 5% of the player base.

Calls other people selfish.

Funny, isn't it? Also wants content being developed that doesn't pay for itself. So the other gamemodes have to carry raids on their shoulders.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Raknar.4735

[Forum Moderator.3074]

I would like to remind you all to please keep things civil.

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Irrelevant to what I'm saying. 

Differences between the specific content and their reward systems seem to be very relevant, especially when the core difference in them is being "vs" or "co-op".

Quote

According to Mike OBrien back in the day anyway, 60% of the playerbase were predominantly PvE, 30% were predominantly WvW and 10% were predominantly PvP.  PvP aren;'t the guys to cater too.  My guess is the largest single demographic of this game is the casual PvEer. 

Irrelevant to anything here, as well as this thread in general.

Quote

But guys like me, we can't slowly bang away against legendary armor, unless we PvP or WvW (which we don't necessarily enjoy) or raid, which it's been shown most people in the game don't do.

You can't why exactly? Of course you can. You just don't want to, or simply think going another way will be less effort for you -that's just your choice and you're free to make it. Just like, apparently, you did.

Quote

So what you're saying is it's okay to let people PvP as well or as badly as they want and they can over time, eventually get legendary armor, but the bulk of the population shouldn't have that advantage. Instead, like me, they'll be driven into game formats they don't necessarily prefer, which will make them like the game less. It makes me like the game less.  I could get PvP armor much faster if I didn't resent having to do it.  So I'm slowly chipping away at it. Because I'm not going to raid to get it.

So is it "I didn't get that reward, so I like the game less"? Or is it "I need to put an effort to learn the content to get that reward, but I don't want to, so I like the game less"?
Whichever it is, you're complaining about no instant/automatic gratification for whatever you're passively doing. Anything rewarded there isn't needed to anybody to play any content they want. If you don't want to put in the effort and learn the content, then you can keep playing with ascended gear instead of the legendary one and you'll be perfectly fine. If you decide you want to slowly work towards legendary gear in any way you decided to do it, then you're also free to do that. All of that is your choice. None of that meaningfully impacts what you can do in this game.

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Raknar.4735 said:

The story part is entirely subjective. It's a pity you can't seem to differentiate between your opinion and actuality.

There's no easy mode, because it would take developement time from other stuff, like for example strikes. Andrew Gray Mike Z already said so in an interview, the same one were he talks about the average player doing 10x less damage.

Your percentage numbers are made up and subjective, I already got that. I'm just not sure how made up numbers and percentages help any argument. English is also not my main language.

If it were noly about legendary armour, then OP would also have wanted a change to WvW and PvP. He specifically talked about raids. Raids are the main topic of these discussions. But you didn't even want to discuss, you wanted to scapegoat and blame some boogeyman you called "PvE-casuals" from the start. That's not constructive. So I'm going to give your quote back to you: "When you don't like this, you don't have to answer. HF."

Would an easy mode today help raids? Probably not, since Anet is already going all out on strikes as their replacement, as seen from the EoD preview. Raids are on the back-burner, if not dead like dungeons. In my opinion it is too late for raids. Anet is now trying the same thing they did with Fractals and dungeons: Leave raids for dead, give EoD strikes varying difficulty levels.

Raids are niche instanced PvE-content. PvP has a low playerbase, just like in any other MMORPG. Anet sees WvW as a neglected cornerstone of the game. That's why they're giving it more attention at the moment with alliances, reward reworks etc.. The people complaining about PvP and WvW mostly complain about balance & neglect and the complains come from mostly their respective population. I don't really see people complaining because they want the legendary backpieces from WvW and PvP, so your point is moot.

 

Yeah, raids are played by an incredibly small community. Anet themselves acknowledge that. They also acknowledge that raids aren't accessible to a lot of players. That's why they created strikes. That's why they're planning to give strikes varying difficulties in EoD. We've already talked about that. Your anectode about carrying a friend doesn't change that the average player doesn't touch raids at all. So no, it's not about selfishment. And if it were, I'd still call it less selfish than wanting more content of a type that can't even pay for itself and therefore has to take funds of every other gamemode.

 

Edit: I'd say this will be my last post on this topic. The discussion doesn't seem to advance due to obvious bias, subjectiveness and anecdotes and is just as unconstructive as your first post on this topic, where you called out your boogeyman/scapegoat.

 

Funny, isn't it? Also wants content being developed that doesn't pay for itself. So the other gamemodes have to carry raids on their shoulders.

It's quite funny to me that strikes get used as an example of anet abondoning raids, when to me it is the exact opposite. They obviously care obaut difficult group instanced content otherwise they would not have made strikes cms

[Linken.6345]

4 hours ago, Raknar.4735 said:

Not sure how some kind of "easy-mode" would remove/ruin the current raids. It wouldn't change the current raids but it would give Anet an opportunity to create content for a higher % of players, which would then make it feasible to also reuse content that gets played by more and is then sustainable. Anet didn't stop developing raids due to backlash. They simply weren't sustainable with their small population.

That's why they're reinventing raids with strikes. Similiar to how all the other MMORPGs that focus on raiding have their raids in various difficulties, they're now trying the same with strikes in EoD.

Not sure how 97% of the game is for the "yourselves" (who are you including in this "yourselves"? Every non-raider? So PvP, WvW, OW etc. players?). Your percentages don't make any sense, unless you see it as "raiding and everything else". And even then it's sketchy. (I'm not even sure why you incorporated some of your subjective feelings about story in your first paragraph, when this has been about the sustainability of raids).

This isn't about selfishness at all. Anet obviously can't afford to develop more raids in their current state. You're trying to make every non-raider the scapegoat, just like in your first post on the topic, but they aren't at fault for why raids are the way they are and not being developed anymore. You can point your finger in the direction of every non-raider all you want, but that won't bring the unsustainable raids back. How selfish is it to want more content that can't even pay for itself?

 

Scapegoating others, that don't even touch raids, for the decline of raids isn't constructive at all for raids. I'd even say it is one of the reasons why raids are practically discontinued and replaced by strikes. Anet has noticed raids are unapproachable by the average player, that's why they've started with strikes. Strikes are to raids what Fractals are to dungeons. I'm just wondering why it took them this long. Another question is if it would be viable to revive the current raid format with changes (easy mode or something else), or if it is just not worth it at all, just like dungeons. 

I wonder how many pve players would play if they got 1 new story instance each year.

Thats why raid failed mate lack of new content and the stuff that came was not of the same quality.

 

Why is raids the only content that have not had a rush week for example?

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

23 hours ago, Entropo.1524 said:

the raid community got no one to blame other than our selfs for the low number of players playing in comparison to other game modes . gate keeping and elitism largely kept the content closed from players . im not sure if people use raids to boost their egos or so but most raid encouters are a far cry from what people speak of in term of difficulty . and u could even excell in them after a couple of runs 

Nah, the people who take one or two bad experiences and blow them out of proportion on the forums or the people who only tell half the story by minimizing what they did wrong and exaggerating what the squad did wrong and the people who take those other two at face value are to blame for perpetuating this whole raids=toxic mentality.

If raids were really that bad, would ANet even  spend time developing more strike missions for EoD with raid-like  difficulty in mind?

Edited September 25, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Vayne.8563]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Differences between the specific content and their reward systems seem to be very relevant, especially when the core difference in them is being "vs" or "co-op".

Irrelevant to anything here, as well as this thread in general.

You can't why exactly? Of course you can. You just don't want to, or simply think going another way will be less effort for you -that's just your choice and you're free to make it. Just like, apparently, you did.

So is it "I didn't get that reward, so I like the game less"? Or is it "I need to put an effort to learn the content to get that reward, but I don't want to, so I like the game less"?
Whichever it is, you're complaining about no instant/automatic gratification for whatever you're passively doing. Anything rewarded there isn't needed to anybody to play any content they want. If you don't want to put in the effort and learn the content, then you can keep playing with ascended gear instead of the legendary one and you'll be perfectly fine. If you decide you want to slowly work towards legendary gear in any way you decided to do it, then you're also free to do that. All of that is your choice. None of that meaningfully impacts what you can do in this game.

 

Guys like you will never get it. You'd get it if you were the one who didn't like those formats, which btw is probably a healthy percentage of the game. I want to PvE because I find PvE most fun. I bought a game without raids. Now, if I want to do what I did for the first 3.5 years (and I participated in ALL PVE content for the first 3.5 years..dungons, fractals, open world, meta events world bosses), I can't get a reward, when originally I could get all the rewards.

Every time something is locked away from you in a game behind something you dont' enjoy the game becomes less your game. It's a very very simple concept that you seem to be ignoring. It's not just me. So many casuals walked away from this game when HoT launched not because they couldn't do HoT or chose not to do HoT, but because they felt the game was no longer their game. It's an emotional response and like it or not, people play things and watch things for emotional responses, at least an overwhelming majority do.

 

The more annoyance you have at  a game the more strings that bind you to that game are broken. Every change that makes the game less yours is another reason to play another game full time or make another game your main game. HoT gave that reason to casuals and casuals responded. Anet must have noticed because they not only nerfed HOT but made their next expansions a sort of anti-HoT.  Fewer important metas on timers, with worse rewards. More stuff like bounties which are content on demand. More exploration without the verticality.  Virtually every decision made in PoF was a way to show the casuals that we're still a game you can play, because casuals, at least a large number of them were hurt by HoT. It's not cause HoT was bad. It was because this content wasn't something that casuals could play.

Now legendary weapons have been in the game since launch and most casuals can still get them, without doing something that's harder core content than raiding. They even changed dungeon tokens so you no longer have to do dungeons. There are aways to avoid it and still get a legendary weapon.  But legendary armor, nope, we need to lock that behind less played, less accessible areas of the game for reasons.

 

But I've yet to hear one single reason that justifies locking them away from the biggest portion of the playerbase. Let's protect the few raiders that play this game because that makes some kind of sense, no matter who you disenfranchise. Like it or not, casuals want things they don't need and sometimes can't have and the more of that stuff you put out of their reach the less they feel this game is for them and whether you personally care or not...that's an issue for the game.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Guys like you will never get it. You'd get it if you were the one who didn't like those formats, which btw is probably a healthy percentage of the game. I want to PvE because I find PvE most fun. I bought a game without raids. Now, if I want to do what I did for the first 3.5 years (and I participated in ALL PVE content for the first 3.5 years..dungons, fractals, open world, meta events world bosses), I can't get a reward, when originally I could get all the rewards.

You bought an MMO that updates regularly and are now getting mad that it added content with unique rewards that it didn't have before.  Get over it.  This is akin to someone who  exclusively plays PvP getting angry that WvW armor looks better to them but refuses to put forth any effort to do WvW.

 

Quote

Every time something is locked away from you in a game behind something you dont' enjoy the game becomes less your game. It's a very very simple concept that you seem to be ignoring. It's not just me. So many casuals walked away from this game when HoT launched not because they couldn't do HoT or chose not to do HoT, but because they felt the game was no longer their game. It's an emotional response and like it or not, people play things and watch things for emotional responses, at least an overwhelming majority do.

Perhaps because, this game is supposed to be played and enjoyed by a multitude of players with different skill levels and interests.  There are those that just want to throw together random gear and rarities, turn on auto attack and just afk, play the market to make big GP, challenge themselves by getting the biggest, best titles in pvp, wvw, or pve, or unlock every skin/do every achievement.  Themepark games like GW2 are supposed t o have content and rewards for a variety of playstyles.
 

Quote

The more annoyance you have at  a game the more strings that bind you to that game are broken. Every change that makes the game less yours is another reason to play another game full time or make another game your main game. HoT gave that reason to casuals and casuals responded. Anet must have noticed because they not only nerfed HOT but made their next expansions a sort of anti-HoT.  Fewer important metas on timers, with worse rewards. More stuff like bounties which are content on demand. More exploration without the verticality.  Virtually every decision made in PoF was a way to show the casuals that we're still a game you can play, because casuals, at least a large number of them were hurt by HoT. It's not cause HoT was bad. It was because this content wasn't something that casuals could play.

This is some weird obsession you have.  GW2 is a game.  If you get burnt out, just don't play it.  And honestly, a majority of people don't even care about legendary armor, weapons, or gear and those t hat do tend to actually be trying for it instead of sitting on the forums complaining about it.  Also speaking of casuals at the time HoT dropped.  Hi, hello, I was one of them.  I still managed to overcome the challenges.  It honestly wasn't nearly as bad as people  exaggerate here.  At launch it was pretty terrible as it didn't reward exploration (EG, you needed a mastery for everything), but they changed that around and the maps were lively as ever.

 

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Now legendary weapons have been in the game since launch and most casuals can still get them, without doing something that's harder core content than raiding. They even changed dungeon tokens so you no longer have to do dungeons. There are aways to avoid it and still get a legendary weapon.  But legendary armor, nope, we need to lock that behind less played, less accessible areas of the game for reasons.

Weapons != armor.  Most casuals don't even bother with gen 2 legendary weapons.  ANet changed dungeon tokens so the players exclusively playing WvW and PvP could acquire the dungeon skins.  There are also two extra ways to get legendary armor without having to do raids, and, according to ANet, lots of people who play PvE already play WvW.

 

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But I've yet to hear one single reason that justifies locking them away from the biggest portion of the playerbase. Let's protect the few raiders that play this game because that makes some kind of sense, no matter who you disenfranchise. Like it or not, casuals want things they don't need and sometimes can't have and the more of that stuff you put out of their reach the less they feel this game is for them and whether you personally care or not...that's an issue for the game.

A unique, prestigious reward for playing some of the most difficult content in the game.  Every. Other. Game. And. MMORPG. Does. This.  It's like putting the radiant and hellfire skins behind AP.  You know someone wearing the full set or certain pieces has very high AP.  Or in PvP with the unique gizmos for winning seasonal tournaments.  Or those unique finishers from the WvW tournaments that happened years ago.  Prestige and unique rewards are valued in MMOs.  Without them, there's really nothing to farm for.

[Vayne.8563]

8 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You bought an MMO that updates regularly and are now getting mad that it added content with unique rewards that it didn't have before.  Get over it.  This is akin to someone who  exclusively plays PvP getting angry that WvW armor looks better to them but refuses to put forth any effort to do WvW.

 

Perhaps because, this game is supposed to be played and enjoyed by a multitude of players with different skill levels and interests.  There are those that just want to throw together random gear and rarities, turn on auto attack and just afk, play the market to make big GP, challenge themselves by getting the biggest, best titles in pvp, wvw, or pve, or unlock every skin/do every achievement.  Themepark games like GW2 are supposed t o have content and rewards for a variety of playstyles.
 

This is some weird obsession you have.  GW2 is a game.  If you get burnt out, just don't play it.  And honestly, a majority of people don't even care about legendary armor, weapons, or gear and those t hat do tend to actually be trying for it instead of sitting on the forums complaining about it.  Also speaking of casuals at the time HoT dropped.  Hi, hello, I was one of them.  I still managed to overcome the challenges.  It honestly wasn't nearly as bad as people  exaggerate here.  At launch it was pretty terrible as it didn't reward exploration (EG, you needed a mastery for everything), but they changed that around and the maps were lively as ever.

 

Weapons != armor.  Most casuals don't even bother with gen 2 legendary weapons.  ANet changed dungeon tokens so the players exclusively playing WvW and PvP could acquire the dungeon skins.  There are also two extra ways to get legendary armor without having to do raids, and, according to ANet, lots of people who play PvE already play WvW.

 

A unique, prestigious reward for playing some of the most difficult content in the game.  Every. Other. Game. And. MMORPG. Does. This.  It's like putting the radiant and hellfire skins behind AP.  You know someone wearing the full set or certain pieces has very high AP.  Or in PvP with the unique gizmos for winning seasonal tournaments.  Or those unique finishers from the WvW tournaments that happened years ago.  Prestige and unique rewards are valued in MMOs.  Without them, there's really nothing to farm for.

So explain to me then why not enough people raid for Anet to continue supporting the format. When Anet introduced raids, I"m sure they expected more people to raid because the raid community is very loud. It's also fairly small.

 

Which means that you're locking content in PvE behind the least done PvE content.  And you think that's good because you like that content.  It's not good. No matter how many games you bring up, it doesn't change the fact that raids are unpopular content in THIS game.  Why in anyone's mind is it good to lock those rewards behind unpopular content? There isn't a good answer I've seen, but other games do it is probably the worst. Other games also raise the level cap. Other games continually introduce new tiers of gear.

Many of us came  here to get away from other games. The addition of raiding fundamentally changed this game for me. It doesn't matter if you understand this or not, it's my experience it's what I feel. But I guarantee you I'm not the only person who feels it. You may think that doesn't matter, but there aren't enough raiders in this game to cater to them. Not only acccording to me, but according to Anet.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

35 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

So explain to me then why not enough people raid for Anet to continue supporting the format. When Anet introduced raids, I"m sure they expected more people to raid because the raid community is very loud. It's also fairly small.

ANet's making new raid-like content with EoD.  Here's the simple explanation as to why.  Strikes reuse assets and are easier to change/modify.  They don't need more rewards as each strike can just be under the same reward structure and given the same currency as current strikes (As fractals do).  Raids, for all intents and purposes, take a lot more manpower to develop and push out.  Each wing has to have unique rewards to that wing per boss
 

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Which means that you're locking content in PvE behind the least done PvE content.  And you think that's good because you like that content.  It's not good. No matter how many games you bring up, it doesn't change the fact that raids are unpopular content in THIS game.  Why in anyone's mind is it good to lock those rewards behind unpopular content? There isn't a good answer I've seen, but other games do it is probably the worst. Other games also raise the level cap. Other games continually introduce new tiers of gear.

Many of us came  here to get away from other games. The addition of raiding fundamentally changed this game for me. It doesn't matter if you understand this or not, it's my experience it's what I feel. But I guarantee you I'm not the only person who feels it. You may think that doesn't matter, but there aren't enough raiders in this game to cater to them. Not only acccording to me, but according to Anet.

Okay, so where's the issue with the legendary fractal backpiece?  Or the numerous pvp rewards/titles locked behind achieving rank 1-10 on the leaderboards?  Why is it good for the longevity of an MMO to give out rewards instead of putting them behind content that actually takes effort?  You're not going to be satisfied with an answer because, from what I've gleamed with everything you've said, you want these rewards for basically free and no effort.  Which is not going to happen.

Also if you can't argue with actual facts but instead jsut with feelings, I'm not going to bother responding to you from here on.  You're having an emotional response instead of any sort of logical thought.

[Vayne.8563]

1 minute ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

ANet's making new raid-like content with EoD.  Here's the simple explanation as to why.  Strikes reuse assets and are easier to change/modify.  They don't need more rewards as each strike can just be under the same reward structure and given the same currency as current strikes (As fractals do).  Raids, for all intents and purposes, take a lot more manpower to develop and push out.  Each wing has to have unique rewards to that wing per boss
 

Okay, so where's the issue with the legendary fractal backpiece?  Or the numerous pvp rewards/titles locked behind achieving rank 1-10 on the leaderboards?  Why is it good for the longevity of an MMO to give out rewards instead of putting them behind content that actually takes effort?  You're not going to be satisfied with an answer because, from what I've gleamed with everything you've said, you want these rewards for basically free and no effort.  Which is not going to happen.

Also if you can't argue with actual facts but instead jsut with feelings, I'm not going to bother responding to you from here on.  You're having an emotional response instead of any sort of logical thought.

I have the legendary fractal backpiece, but I didn't necessarily enjoy getting it. I think they need to give more casual players a way to get that as well.  My opinion isn't different just because you decided to think of it.

 

I am arguing with actual facts. 

Fact: Anet said not enough PvE'ers raid to continue supporting that format. Strike missions were introduced as a stepping stone to raids to get more people into that content. 

Fact: The only PvE legendary armor you can get is in raids, which as previously mentioned isn't popular enough to continue supporting.

These two facts together are more facts than you're provided. PvE legendary armor is locked behind some of the least popular content in the game. I can't imagine a world where that's good for the game. If you can, that's okay. It just means you have a better imagination than I do.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

22 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I have the legendary fractal backpiece, but I didn't necessarily enjoy getting it. I think they need to give more casual players a way to get that as well.  My opinion isn't different just because you decided to think of it.

It's honestly easier to get it these days than it was when it first came out.  There's zero reason for any more nerfs and it shows (or at least at one point, so showed) mastery over fractals.  Now-a-days, fractal god takes over that title.
 

Quote

I am arguing with actual facts. 

Fact: Anet said not enough PvE'ers raid to continue supporting that format. Strike missions were introduced as a stepping stone to raids to get more people into that content. 

Fact: The only PvE legendary armor you can get is in raids, which as previously mentioned isn't popular enough to continue supporting.

These two facts together are more facts than you're provided. PvE legendary armor is locked behind some of the least popular content in the game. I can't imagine a world where that's good for the game. If you can, that's okay. It just means you have a better imagination than I do.

No, you're really not.  Consider the following

 

  

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The addition of raiding fundamentally changed this game for me. It doesn't matter if you understand this or not, it's my experience it's what I feel

 

4 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Like it or not, casuals want things they don't need and sometimes can't have and the more of that stuff you put out of their reach the less they feel this game is for them and whether you personally care or not...that's an issue for the game.

Conjecture at best.

Fact: Strikes are also real easy to develop.  They dropped several and they were just copy/pastes of story instances with slight tweaks to the mechanics.  And they all get steadily more difficult.  Now, ANet has ways to make them more difficult within EoD.  They've directly stated that EoD strikes will have raid difficulty.

Fact: ANet wants to support their hardcore community.  Otherwise why would they use their time to develop CMs for DRMs, fractals, and the upcoming strikes from EoD?

Fact: PvP is less supported, less popular, and has more exclusive rewards than Raids.

Fact: There's a ton of content you can do in GW2 that doesn't even require you having maxed out gear, so legendary armor isn't even a requirement for anything. There's zero reason you'll need legendary armor for anything you'd be doing.  Testing builds isn't expensive with a full ascended set being stat-swapped only costing roughly 45g at most.  Besides that, there are ways to test out the feel of weapon sets and exotics are super cheap too.  In fact, I already did the maths on every exotic piece of armor in every weight and weapons for every class and it only came out to ~8500 gold combined (Armor & weapons) for every single attribute combination for every single class.  Also about the same cost as full legendary armor.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Vayne.8563]

Just now, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

It's honestly easier to get it these days than it was when it first came out.  There's zero reason for any more nerfs and it shows (or at least at one point, so showed) mastery over fractals.  Now-a-days, fractal god takes over that title.
 

No, you're really not.  Consider the following

 

 

Conjecture at best.

Fact: Strikes are also real easy to develop.  They dropped several and they were just copy/pastes of story instances with slight tweaks to the mechanics.  And they all get steadily more difficult.  Now, ANet has ways to make them more difficult within EoD.  They've directly stated that EoD strikes will have raid difficulty.

Fact: ANet wants to support their hardcore community.  Otherwise why would they use their time to develop CMs for DRMs, fractals, and the upcoming strikes from EoD?

Fact: PvP is less supported, less popular, and has more exclusive rewards than Raids.

Fact: There's a ton of content you can do in GW2 that doesn't even require you having maxed out gear, so legendary armor isn't even a requirement for anything. There's zero reason you'll need legendary armor for anything you'd be doing.  Testing builds isn't expensive with a full ascended set being stat-swapped only costing roughly 45g at most.  Besides that, there are ways to test out the feel of weapon sets and exotics are super cheap too.  In fact, I already did the maths on every exotic piece of armor in every weight and weapons for every class and it only came out to ~8500 gold combined (Armor & weapons) for every single attribute combination for every single class.  Also about the same cost as full legendary armor.

Those aren't facts. You're guessing some of that stuff. Like Anet wants to support the high end community. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. They haven't shown a lot of evidence for that so far and actions speak louder than words. You do know what marketing is, right?

Anet isn't going to come out and say we don't care about the hard core community, right? I'm sure there are some devs that do care, but as a company, Anet hasn't shown much emphasis on that harder core content.

Sometimes it's better to look at what a company does than what a company says.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

6 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Those aren't facts. You're guessing some of that stuff. Like Anet wants to support the high end community. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. They haven't shown a lot of evidence for that so far and actions speak louder than words. You do know what marketing is, right?

Anet isn't going to come out and say we don't care about the hard core community, right? I'm sure there are some devs that do care, but as a company, Anet hasn't shown much emphasis on that harder core content.

Sometimes it's better to look at what a company does than what a company says.

Alright let's just ignore that every DRM has a CM mode and that every strike mission was getting progressively more difficult (Hello Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag) and that Forging Steel came with CMs, or that Marionette Private instance is basically a 50 man raid that requires good group comp.  Or that  three fractals have daily, repeatable CMs tied to them.  Let's also ignore the fact that dungeons were sold as the most difficult content in GW2 back in 2012-2013.  Nah, ANet doesn't want anything to do with the hardcore community.

[Sobx.1758]

On 9/26/2021 at 12:24 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

Guys like you will never get it.

Meaning who exactly?

Quote

You'd get it if you were the one who didn't like those formats,

Get what exactly? Can you answer to what I wrote or at least be more specific? "you will never get it!" and "you'd get it!" is not specific. It says nothing. What's "it"? What are you talking about here?

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I want to PvE because I find PvE most fun.

Cool, you're free to pve, don't see the problem.

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I bought a game without raids. Now, if I want to do what I did for the first 3.5 years (and I participated in ALL PVE content for the first 3.5 years..dungons, fractals, open world, meta events world bosses), I can't get a reward, when originally I could get all the rewards.

You also bought it without full legendary gear available, without especs, new zones, mounts, gliding, masteries and soo oooon. By logic you're trying to use as an arugment here ("I bought this without that!"), you expect no new content in the game and the game to basically stay in the same place for 10 years. That doesn't seem reasonable for anyone involved.

If you're looking to receive all the rewards for repeatedly playing through the content that was available on the release (because that's what you've said above), then you might not want to play mmorpgs in the first place, because that's not how it works.

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Every time something is locked away from you in a game behind something you dont' enjoy the game becomes less your game. It's a very very simple concept that you seem to be ignoring. It's not just me. So many casuals walked away from this game when HoT launched not because they couldn't do HoT or chose not to do HoT, but because they felt the game was no longer their game.

Nothing is locked from you. You can learn the new content, play through it and get the rewards. This is a rather simple concept -that's how games work and always did.

And you don't know why people quit, so stop pretending you do. You simply don't have that information.

Quote

[HoT HoT HoT]

This has nothing to do with this thread or my post. Even then, players making progress the longer they play and content going forward is the norm in games.

Quote

Now legendary weapons have been in the game since launch and most casuals can still get them, without doing something that's harder core content than raiding. They even changed dungeon tokens so you no longer have to do dungeons. There are aways to avoid it and still get a legendary weapon.  But legendary armor, nope, we need to lock that behind less played, less accessible areas of the game for reasons.

It's not locked. You can learn the content, use lfg, complete the content and get the rewards just like many other players did. If you don't want to then it's your choice. If you don't want to learn/complete the content, you're free to play with ascended gear and you'll be perfectly fine.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Vayne.8563]

26 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Alright let's just ignore that every DRM has a CM mode and that every strike mission was getting progressively more difficult (Hello Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag) and that Forging Steel came with CMs, or that Marionette Private instance is basically a 50 man raid that requires good group comp.  Or that  three fractals have daily, repeatable CMs tied to them.  Let's also ignore the fact that dungeons were sold as the most difficult content in GW2 back in 2012-2013.  Nah, ANet doesn't want anything to do with the hardcore community.

Well the CMs in DRMs are nothing. I can solo a lot of them and I'm not particularly good at the game. Sure it was easy. No new mechancis, just a time limit, slight harder bosses or slight harder mobs to get to the bosses. Most of the DRMs are not really challenging to say raiders, or even casuals like me with a group of casual guildies. Hardly indicating they're supporting hard core content. They did the easiest thing they  could possibly do to supply a CM mode.

And yeah, no one complains it's too long between fractals. Tell me when was the last raid, or strike mission. Been a while, huh?

Honestly if you don't see the hard core community complaining that there's not enough hard core content,, you're just not paying attention.

 

Anet throws the hard core community scraps. The fact that you take this as evidence that they're actively supporting hard core play say more about your hopefulness than any sort of objective reality. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[Vayne.8563]

13 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Meaning who exactly?

Get what exactly? Can you answer to what I wrote or at least be more specific? "you will never get it!" and "you'd get it!" is not specific. It says nothing. What's "it"? What are you talking about here?

Cool, you're free to pve, don't see the problem.

You also bought it without full legendary gear available, without especs, new zones, mounts, gliding, masteries and soo oooon. By logic you're trying to use as an arugment here ("I bought this without that!"), you expect no new content in the game and the game to basically stay in the same place for 10 years. That doesn't seem reasonable for anyone involved.

If you're looking to receive all the rewards for repeatedly playing through the content that was available on the release (because that's what you've said above), then you might not want to play mmorpgs in the first place, because that's not how it works.

Nothing is locked from you. You can learn the new content, play through it and get the rewards. This is a rather simple concept -that's how games work and always did.

And you don't know why people quit, so stop pretending you do. You simply don't have that information.

This has nothing to do with this thread or my post. Even then, players making progress the longer they play and content going forward is the norm in games.

It's not locked. You can learn the content, use lfg, complete the content and get the rewards just like many other people did. If you don't want to then it's your choice. If you don't want to learn/complete the content, you're free to play with ascended gear and you'll be perfectly fine.

I liked all the content prior to raids. Certainly all the PVE content. Now they're placing rewards behind content that I don't enjoy that I'd have to do a lot of of to get that reward. It's not the game I bought for sure. There are positive changes in the game and negative changes. I get to say when I don't like a change. Raids are a change I don't like and placing PvE rewards behind them as the only way to get those PvE rewards I don't like. It's not like I can raid for 15 minutes, stop and do it again when I recover.

I don't like vegetarian restaurants so I don't eat in them. Sure I could suck it up and eat in them, but I don't because I don't like them. This is a very simple content. What you're saying it do raids that you don't like for months, to get a reward that is arbitrarily only given to raids in PVE. I won't do that so I'm WvW and PvPing for them, but I'm not really enjoying that either.

I love how people who enjoy content think that the best answer to give someone is well  just do it even if you don't like it, because that's how the game works.  This game was a game I could play every part of and enjoy (more or less with PvP) for 3. 5 years. Since raids came out, there's a section of the game I don't enjoy.  Your solution is to tell me to play it.

It's not even like having to do world complete.. I can do that solo at my own pace whenever I want. I can take as long as I want to get a core legendary weapon. I dont' have to find 9 other people and have a lousy time for months on end. Are you even listening to what you're saying?

I think this week I'll just go eat in a bunch of restaurants I don't like.  It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[Linken.6345]

7 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I liked all the content prior to raids. Certainly all the PVE content. Now they're placing rewards behind content that I don't enjoy that I'd have to do a lot of of to get that reward. It's not the game I bought for sure. There are positive changes in the game and negative changes. I get to say when I don't like a change. Raids are a change I don't like and placing PvE rewards behind them as the only way to get those PvE rewards I don't like. It's not like I can raid for 15 minutes, stop and do it again when I recover.

I don't like vegetarian restaurants so I don't eat in them. Sure I could suck it up and eat in them, but I don't because I don't like them. This is a very simple content. What you're saying it do raids that you don't like for months, to get a reward that is arbitrarily only given to raids in PVE. I won't do that so I'm WvW and PvPing for them, but I'm not really enjoying that either.

I love how people who enjoy content think that the best answer to give someone is well  just do it even if you don't like it, because that's how the game works.  This game was a game I could play every part of and enjoy (more or less with PvP) for 3. 5 years. Since raids came out, there's a section of the game I don't enjoy.  Your solution is to tell me to play it.

It's not even like having to do world complete.. I can do that solo at my own pace whenever I want. I can take as long as I want to get a core legendary weapon. I dont' have to find 9 other people and have a lousy time for months on end. Are you even listening to what you're saying?

I think this week I'll just go eat in a bunch of restaurants I don't like.  It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

And why exactly cant you raid for 15 mins, stop and come back later?

The raid states are saved for a week so if you do progress you can come back later and finish it before mondays reset.

You not wanting to do it is all that stops you and that is fine.

I wont get the spvp gizmos or titles and I dont cry/moan that they should be put into a format I like more.

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I liked all the content prior to raids. Certainly all the PVE content. Now they're placing rewards behind content that I don't enjoy that I'd have to do a lot of of to get that reward. It's not the game I bought for sure. There are positive changes in the game and negative changes. I get to say when I don't like a change. Raids are a change I don't like and placing PvE rewards behind them as the only way to get those PvE rewards I don't like.

 

You might have like all the content, but you're not the only player that plays the game. Notice how you didn't care whether or not other players liked same things you did before. It's not all about you.

Sure, "it's not the game you bought for sure". I've already addressed that in my previous post, so I'm not sure why you're repeating the same thing again instead of addressing my response? Here's ther reminder:

You also bought it without full legendary gear available, without especs, new zones, mounts, gliding, masteries and soo oooon. By logic you're trying to use as an arugment here ("I bought this without that!"), you expect no new content in the game and the game to basically stay in the same place for 10 years. That doesn't seem reasonable for anyone involved.

If you're looking to receive all the rewards for repeatedly playing through the content that was available on the release (because that's what you've said above), then you might not want to play mmorpgs in the first place, because that's not how it works.

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's not like I can raid for 15 minutes, stop and do it again when I recover.

Why not? And what do you mean "recover"? You said above you can solo cm drms and individual raid encounters won't really take longer than that. Nobody says you need to clear whole wings without a break.

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

This game was a game I could play every part of and enjoy (more or less with PvP) for 3. 5 years. Since raids came out, there's a section of the game I don't enjoy.  Your solution is to tell me to play it.

No, I'm saying you have multiple choices to get the rewards you want which -by your own claim- is what you're already doing. If you don't want to participate in the content, then you don't need to, you can keep playing with ascended gear and play through literally anything you want. That's not a problem. I keep repeating this. You keep dodging it. But it still remains true.

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I love how people who enjoy content think that the best answer to give someone is well  just do it even if you don't like it, because that's how the game works.  This game was a game I could play every part of and enjoy (more or less with PvP) for 3. 5 years. Since raids came out, there's a section of the game I don't enjoy.  Your solution is to tell me to play it.

You still can play every part of it and enjoy. You don't need legendary gear for that exactly like you didn't need it before. You are free to play what you want and how you want, stop pretending I told you something I didn't.