[PVE]My feedback - Vindicator needed redesign

[Kazeshini.8210]

Vindicators have higher leap than thief vaulting, high jumping skills like a dragoon in final fantasy but they can't even use this jump skill to leap ontop of ledges. The whole rooting to the ground when dodged needs to be removed. Also the whole talent trait tree feels like 80/20 in favor being support / blue alliance stance. We shouldn't be forced to be bottlenecked and rely on vigor related uptime if forerunner of death cant be held uptime consistently.

Our 2 offensive Major Grandmaster traits feels like a massive downgrade comparing to what daredevil dodging has to offer in PvE. I wanted for so long for Berserker (maybe with few assassins here and there) power revenants builds to pop out with their numbers and go ham, pumping harder dps than a HoT era power tempest pumping out dps with fire+air attunement rotation.

[Kain Francois.4328]

On 10/2/2021 at 2:35 AM, Kazeshini.8210 said:

Vindicators have higher leap than thief vaulting, high jumping skills like a dragoon in final fantasy but they can't even use this jump skill to leap ontop of ledges

No.

First of all, having played Vindicator, it DOES leap higher than normal.
Secondly, it's not worth all the potential bugs, map breaks, and cheating in PvP, that would be incurred by making the actual leap on Vindicator any higher.

On 10/2/2021 at 2:35 AM, Kazeshini.8210 said:

I wanted for so long for Berserker (maybe with few assassins here and there) power revenants builds

You can already achieve over 30k DPS with dead simple rotations, pushed even higher thanks to 10man life steal on Herald, and and ferocity buffs from Devastation.
This is in addition to the fact Herald can provide 10man boons, while having access to some of the best survivability in the game thanks to Battle Scars from Devastation, and damage reduction traits innate to Herald itself.
And don't forget that Revenant also bring some of THE best CC in the game thanks to Staff 5. (So much so that it's the team's primary CC used in 99CM.)

Devastation is such a good traitline that even the core revenant can deal over 30k dps just by autoattacking with Impossible Odds, and using F2 off cd.  (Unfortunately the video author set it to private...)

If Vindicator has damage multipliers better than Herald,  the situation will be made immensely worse. than the already existing "AFK" build`:

And if you want to tryhard and push 37k DPS? That's what Power Renegade is for:

BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR. Revenant already has a very high bar in terms of  "Power DPS". If you want Vindicator to be even higher, and push 38-40k dps, then sacrifices may be necessary for the sake of balance. In this case, Devastation could be nerfed. (Which most Revenants probably don't want to happen.)
Alternatively, this could possibly mean pigeon holing players into using Retribution and Invocation for optimal DPS, which could be a big hit to build versatility, and possibly force the Vindicator to rely heavily on its annoying dodge for optimal damage.

Having established that Herald exceeds 30k DPS with just autottack, it's very clear that giving Vindicator strike damage bonuses will be an extremely dangerous game. So the DPS needs to be leveraged elsewhere, like the evade, the legend, and the greatsword itself. Which also means being very careful not to make those individual skills overpowered either.

This isn't just a PvE issue, but a WvW and PvP one as well. The dodge is already extremely powerful in those game modes. We're talking being able to safely just leap into the dead center of an enemy zerg, and then safely escape. So if you buff the Vindicator's dodge capabilities further, you make those game modes a total headache,.

LASTLY, some food for thought... all the existing Revenant elite specs already benefit both healing and damage builds. So it was to be expected that Vindicator is also a hybrid support, just like Herald and Renegade can be as well.

 

tl;dr: While Vindicator needs some adjustments and polish,  power damage is not the issue with Vindicator, and it isn't the issue with any Revenant spec either. We need to think more broadly than just "power dps" when giving feedback about Vindicator.

Ps. Obtena.7952 is right.

Pss. POWER CREEP IS BAD FOR THE GAME.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Kain Francois.4328

[Jthug.9506]

That renegade benchmark is pre-battle scars nerf, it’s probably 35-36k now. It requires 100% resolution and weakness uptime, which isn’t realistic, and the dps drops way off on small hitboxes. Even in those ideal conditions it’s sill the 2nd weakest benching  power class.

So I guess what you are saying is that if other classes get power creep that’s ok, but if revenants want to be on par with them then it’s suddenly bad for the game… got it.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Kain Francois.4328]

14 hours ago, Jthug.9506 said:

That renegade benchmark is pre-battle scars nerf, it’s probably 35-36k now. It requires 100% resolution and weakness uptime, which isn’t realistic, and the dps drops way off on small hitboxes. Even in those ideal conditions it’s sill the 2nd weakest benching  power class.

So I guess what you are saying is that if other classes get power creep that’s ok, but if revenants want to be on par with them then it’s suddenly bad for the game… got it.

Firstly, Rev has Assassin's Presence, and other forms of support, which aren't obvious on dps meters. So it totals higher than the benchmark.

Secondly, we should nerf other classes, especially Firebrand. Power creep is the issue, not Revenant.

Again, there's nothing wrong if Vindicator does a bit more damage. But it needs to be implemented very carefully, without relying on strike damage buffs.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Kain Francois.4328

[Kazeshini.8210]

10 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

First of all, having played Vindicator, it DOES leap higher than normal.
Secondly, it's not worth all the potential bugs, map breaks, and cheating in PvP, that would be incurred by making the actual leap on Vindicator any higher.

If anet were serious about this kind of exploiting map breaking they should've placed invisible  wall mesh/polygons and act like barriers to obstruct their path to prevent players getting on these specific ledges or vertex to leap again to be unreachable in PvP + WvW especially with gliding.
 

[Jthug.9506]

10 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

Firstly, Rev has Assassin's Presence, and other forms of support, which aren't obvious on dps meters. So it totals higher than the benchmark.

Secondly, we should nerf other classes, especially Firebrand.

Again, there's nothing wrong if Vindicator does a bit more damage. But it needs to be implemented very carefully, without relying on strike damage buffs.

That benchmark was done with notoriety over ap, so no hidden bonus there. Nerf all dps down to a max of 24k dps for all I care, but please make them do roughly the same dps.

Furthermore idgaf if rev can get ok dps with auto attacks, so can a lot of builds, what has that got to do with anything?

Edited October 5, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Howluffu.7259]

On 9/28/2021 at 6:24 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

No you aren't ... or you wouldn't have replied. The fact is that Vindicator doesn't need to change because it's not meta-level DPS. That IS supported by facts because not everything is meta and even if it is, not necessarily because of its DPS. So no, I'm not wrong. 'not meta DPS' is NOT a reason to change Vindicator. That's actually a WELL supported fact by the history of the game. 

Ok I can't argue with a stubborn wall but I will just leave this here: There is an actual reason to change Vindicator and it's that was in beta, was tested and even the official forum thread that devs have put there to know what comunity thinks of it says by vast majority that is clunky and like to change a LOT of thinks of the e-spec. Even the thread of this beta e-spec tells players to suggest changes or opinions, and their have been made.

 

The thread itself by de devs is a REASON to change Vindicator. And that's a fact!

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

The thread itself by de devs is a REASON to change Vindicator. And that's a fact!

No, that's not a fact. The existence of a thread to give feedback is NOT a reason to change Vindicator. Whether the feedback is valuable and leads Anet to change the Vindicator depends on ALOT more than just "Hey we have a thread for feedback here". 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's not a fact. The existence of a thread to give feedback is NOT a reason to change Vindicator. Whether the feedback is valuable and leads Anet to change the Vindicator depends on ALOT more than just "Hey we have a thread for feedback here". 

Which is a great benefit to the game’s health.  Some of the suggestions made by some of the posters here are utterly ridiculous.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Jthug.9506]

I get the feeling this sub is full of people who hate revenant and want to make sure it’s never good. 

[Obtena.7952]

On 10/8/2021 at 10:12 AM, Jthug.9506 said:

I get the feeling this sub is full of people who hate revenant and want to make sure it’s never good. 

Or people that realize it's one of the best classes out there already /shrug

[Kain Francois.4328]

On 10/8/2021 at 10:12 AM, Jthug.9506 said:

I get the feeling this sub is full of people who hate revenant and want to make sure it’s never good. 

I get the feeling this sub is full of people who have an ulterior motive to make their own class stronger, rather than caring about game balance.

Yes, Vidicator needs improvements. But it shouldn't be able to push 38-40k dps while granting passive support.

 

On 10/8/2021 at 10:12 AM, Jthug.9506 said:

I get the feeling this sub is full of people who hate revenant and want to make sure it’s never good. 

Revenant is used in virtually every endgame comp.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Kain Francois.4328

[LucianDK.8615]

I think people doesnt realize that Vindicator is a cleave damage specs to groups, not single target damage. You have to let go of the fantasy that greatsword will supplant sword/sword as the premier single target weapon. When it already cleaves so well, and would be OP if it was super single target too.

 

You are not going to get enough of a damage buff to render swords obsolete in single target damage.

[Obtena.7952]

15 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

I think people doesnt realize that Vindicator is a cleave damage specs to groups, not single target damage. You have to let go of the fantasy that greatsword will supplant sword/sword as the premier single target weapon. When it already cleaves so well, and would be OP if it was super single target too.

 

You are not going to get enough of a damage buff to render swords obsolete in single target damage.

Well, to be fair, this IS one of the things that is wrong with Vindicator. GS is just swords, but 'great' ... so GS should probably be re-visited by Anet to do something even SLIGHTLY different than swords does. I think it's worth reminding everyone that swords isn't exactly designed as a single target weapon either. 

[Kain Francois.4328]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, to be fair, this IS one of the things that is wrong with Vindicator. GS is just swords, but 'great' ... so GS should probably be re-visited by Anet to do something even SLIGHTLY different than swords does. I think it's worth reminding everyone that swords isn't exactly designed as a single target weapon either. 

Again, it's refreshing to hear someone talk about the real issues with Vindicator.

[Jthug.9506]

On 10/10/2021 at 4:24 PM, LucianDK.8615 said:

I think people doesnt realize that Vindicator is a cleave damage specs to groups, not single target damage. You have to let go of the fantasy that greatsword will supplant sword/sword as the premier single target weapon. When it already cleaves so well, and would be OP if it was super single target too.

 

You are not going to get enough of a damage buff to render swords obsolete in single target damage.

The rotation would be GS-S/S swap off cd, I'll bet that they do buff it at least in pve, maybe not to 38-40k but perhaps 37-40k.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

I look at the GS as the multi-target, aoe cleaver and the s/s as a complimentary single target weapon set.  Sure, s/s has a skill set that isn’t completely single target, but it is an effective single target weapon set none the less.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 10/9/2021 at 3:14 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Or people that realize it's one of the best classes out there already /shrug

It's bad!!!buff Herald!    :]

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

I look at the GS as the multi-target, aoe cleaver and the s/s as a complimentary single target weapon set.  Sure, s/s has a skill set that isn’t completely single target, but it is an effective single target weapon set none the less.

Sure, you can use S/S against a single target .. but it's pretty clear it's not designed that way. I mean put it this way, GS is JUST as applicable to single target as S/S set up is. 

To be clear, the issue isn't that either of these weapon setups are multi target designs. It's that both of these weapon setups are so similar that it begs the question as to what GS offers beyond a S/S setup. If the only unique offering is GS 5 ... I would say Anet needs to get back to work on a less-similar-to-S/S GS weapon. Some overlap is fine but the amount GS has is not acceptable IMO. It's almost like a copy/paste job. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, you can use S/S against a single target .. but it's pretty clear it's not designed that way. 

It actually IS intentionally designed to benefit primarily from only having a single target. This has been stated by multiple devs on numerous occasions over the past 6 years that the design of rev swords is to “isolate and eliminate a single target.”  Cal Cohen even directly mentioned this on one of the recent livestreams. 
 

sword autos:  cleaves 3 targets 

Old sword 2: Precision Strike - Loses damage on multiple targets 

New sword 2: Chilling Isolation - deals 50% more damage on a single target

Unrelenting Assault - Loses damage across multiple targets

Shackling Wave - Loses damage across multiple targets 

Old sword 5: Grasping Shadow - pull a single target (intention to pull away from a group to isolate)

New sword 5: Deathstrike - execute a single target 

As can be seen, all of the skills (with the sole exception of the autoattack) directly benefit from and incentivize isolating a target in order to inflict the maximum amount of damage. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Obtena.7952]

20 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

It actually IS intentionally designed to benefit primarily from only having a single target. This has been stated by multiple devs on numerous occasions over the past 6 years that the design of rev swords is to “isolate and eliminate a single target.”  Cal Cohen even directly mentioned this on one of the recent livestreams. 
 

sword autos:  cleaves 3 targets 

Old sword 2: Precision Strike - Loses damage on multiple targets 

New sword 2: Chilling Isolation - deals 50% more damage on a single target

Unrelenting Assault - Loses damage across multiple targets

Shackling Wave - Loses damage across multiple targets 

Old sword 5: Grasping Shadow - pull a single target (intention to pull away from a group to isolate)

New sword 5: Deathstrike - execute a single target 

As can be seen, all of the skills (with the sole exception of the autoattack) directly benefit from and incentivize isolating a target in order to inflict the maximum amount of damage. 

They can say it all they like ... but the weapon skills say otherwise. Weapon designs that hit multiple targets that have benefits when facing single targets ... if that's Anet's definition of a primarily single target weapon setup ... then I'm speechless. Single target weapons just don't have most of their weapon skills consistently attack multiple targets. 

The point I'm making is that GS isn't different enough from S/S REGARDLESS of what any dev says S/S is designed to be. I would like to see more differentiation between the two setups ... and no, I don't feel that Anet has done that with the number of targets the weapons skills hit for or the benefits that s/s have when fighting one vs. multiple targets. Feature-by-feature, GS is not different enough from S/S to be meaningful in my opinion. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

31 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

They can say it all they like ... but the weapon skills say otherwise. Weapon designs that hit multiple targets that have benefits when facing single targets ... if that's Anet's definition of a primarily single target weapon setup ... then I'm speechless. Single target weapons just don't have most of their weapon skills consistently attack multiple targets. 

The point I'm making is that GS isn't different enough from S/S REGARDLESS of what any dev says S/S is designed to be. I would like to see more differentiation between the two setups ... and no, I don't feel that Anet has done that with the number of targets the weapons skills hit for or the benefits that s/s have when fighting one vs. multiple targets. Feature-by-feature, GS is not different enough from S/S to be meaningful in my opinion. 

I can certainly see that for GS 1,2, and 3, but not 4 and 5.  4 is a block/retal while 5 is like a mini meteor shower.  Sure, sure, sword 4 used to be a block/retal too, but not now.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

I can certainly see that for GS 1,2, and 3, but not 4 and 5.  4 is a block, retal while 5 is like a mini meteor shower.  Sure, sure, sword 4 used to be that way, but not now.

Well, they don't exactly match up by number, but GS4 is a damage mitigation that results in damage. Sword 3 is ... a damage mitigation that results in damage. 5 is the only skill on GS that doesn't have equivalents in S/S setup (and that doesn't do enough to differentiate it IMO). 

Anyways, i don't expect Anet to really do much about this, but I do think it's a same that they have almost duplicated functionality between both weapon setups. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, they don't exactly match up, but GS4 is a damage mitigation that results in damage. Sword 3 is ... a damage mitigation that results in damage. 5 is the only skill on GS that doesn't have equivalents in S/S setup (and that doesn't do enough to differentiate it IMO). 

But one is a block, the other is an evade.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

40 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

They can say it all they like ... but the weapon skills say otherwise. Sure, there are benefits to single targets with S/S setup ... but if that's Anet's definition of a primarily single target weapon setup ... then I'm speechless. Single target weapons just don't have most of their weapon skills consistently attack multiple targets. 

Just because an attack possibly strikes multiple foes does not mean it’s cleaving.  Cleaving means striking multiple foes simultaneously.  With the exception of sword 1 and 2 (and sword 2 still is incentivized to strike a single foe), sword 3/4/5 all either strike only one target or spread single target strikes across multiple foes.  This is a massively important distinction.  S/S is definitively a single target focused weapon with some limited multi-target potential, but mostly not in the form of actually cleaving  

 

I agree with you though that GS feels a bit redundant with S/S. It’s fairly uninspired IMO and there’s definitely room for improvement. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054