Anet please help me to understand the penalties for dead pet

[Hydrolysis.6810]

@Anet have you noticed that core rangers and druids when their pets die:

1. Loses their profession skill(f2).
2. Lose access to some of their traits (on Pet Swap).
3. Lose some of their damage.

The ranger class is the only profession that suffers a penalty for not keeping their class mechanic alive.

You will lose access to your f1 - f3 abilities and the damage from your pet if they die. Why further penalize the ranger by taking away access to the pet swap and thus access to a lot of its traits?

The pet can stay dead as a means of punishment but at least let the ranger keeps their trait similar to if a guardian takes the trait to remove a condition with f2, if they did not cure a condition they don't suffer from an increased CD.

Soul beast has a constant CD on their merger, plus the ability to revive their pet.

All I am saying is that in wvwvw even if you place the pet on avoiding combat it still dies almost instantly, and you then lose your pet swap CD as well as any f skill and damage, three penalties and I have not seen that on any other professions. 

 

Also there is a bug with the f2 timer if pet was chilled or gained alacrity.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Well, anet thinks pets are OP (see past nerfs in all modes, stemming from PvP); so it follows they also think the penalties are fine.  

 

The fix to me seems simple, just put pet on swap CD timer if they die--can either take effect immediately if still want 'punishment' for that random condi / AoE, or they can just leave it at the 16-20s swap no matter pet status.  

 

So:

 

A. Pet dies and goes on CD, leading to at most a 40s penalty but it starts immediately and does not force a pet swap; if pet is not swapped after the penalty ends it just rezzes (which should be fine because who runs around with a dead pet for 40+s unless they both die)

 

B. Pet dies and timer stays at 16-20s when swap is triggered, no 60s CD BS

 

I like B, because it puts it inline with SB that can just merge and get the pet insta-rezzed in 10 seconds or so.  Since that's working and they haven't nerfed or changed it, it should stand to reason it will be fine on the other specs.  The 'tradeoff' for the other specs is not being able to stow your pet or merge with it, so it exactly matches SBs 'one pet' tradeoff.  

[Avatar.3568]

When a pet dies, go out of combat, swap and you have no CD but 2 full pets

[Hydrolysis.6810]

"B. Pet dies and timer stays at 16-20s when swap is triggered, no 60s CD BS"
That's exactly what it should which would put it in line with SB and it also allows you to keep your pet swap traits on a consistent CD, like any other profession that triggers a trait with a F-Skill.

I don't care about the pets tbh, but more so the inconsistency with the F-skills CDs and being barred from traits due to a dead profession mechanic. 

I'll take a nerf pet if my pet swap traits are intact.

They already have ICDs on traits and pet skills to prevent spam and if part of the ranger's damage or utility is the pet (ranger Mechanics) then why place a barrier outside of the regular CD that all other professions suffer?

Why not increase to CD of a mes if they shatter without a clone.
or a guard that didn't block with their f3.
or a thief that misses with steal
or warrior with a burst
While the above can't equate to a pet, the analogy that I am trying to get at is that if you miss managing your profession's skills you should be punished just as a ranger would be (or the ranger should not be punished in a similar fashion).

[Avatar.3568]

1 hour ago, Hydrolysis.6810 said:

"B. Pet dies and timer stays at 16-20s when swap is triggered, no 60s CD BS"
That's exactly what it should which would put it in line with SB and it also allows you to keep your pet swap traits on a consistent CD, like any other profession that triggers a trait with a F-Skill.

I don't care about the pets tbh, but more so the inconsistency with the F-skills CDs and being barred from traits due to a dead profession mechanic. 

I'll take a nerf pet if my pet swap traits are intact.

They already have ICDs on traits and pet skills to prevent spam and if part of the ranger's damage or utility is the pet (ranger Mechanics) then why place a barrier outside of the regular CD that all other professions suffer?

Why not increase to CD of a mes if they shatter without a clone.
or a guard that didn't block with their f3.
or a thief that misses with steal
or warrior with a burst
While the above can't equate to a pet, the analogy that I am trying to get at is that if you miss managing your profession's skills you should be punished just as a ranger would be (or the ranger should not be punished in a similar fashion).

You have a 15 second timer to take care of your pet, you can heal, you can cleanse condis (druid, slb and healing trap) and it's an ai that has multiple skills and attacks on duty. And it can do most of its stuff passively 

[Zyreva.1078]

Let's not pretend pets can be kept alive reliably. Often that's simply not possible and no other class has to deal with a similar penalty. It is probably the main thing that holds core and druid down in anything outside of 1vs1 (and some builds can kill pets even in 1vs1 fairly easily).

[Kodama.6453]

4 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Let's not pretend pets can be kept alive reliably. Often that's simply not possible and no other class has to deal with a similar penalty. It is probably the main thing that holds core and druid down in anything outside of 1vs1 (and some builds can kill pets even in 1vs1 fairly easily).

Then I suggest that ranger also gets the ability removed to use their beast command skills while in downstate.

No other class can cast their class mechanic skills in downstate, so I don't get why ranger should be able to.

[InsaneQR.7412]

Its a relic of the past tbh.

Its just one of the many things Anet put under the rug regarding pets.

 

A balance pass on all core pets is long overdue and the penalty is just insult to injury. Rangers get already punished when their pet dies because they are forced to swap because a passive pet wont do anything for you.

[Zyreva.1078]

15 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Then I suggest that ranger also gets the ability removed to use their beast command skills while in downstate.

No other class can cast their class mechanic skills in downstate, so I don't get why ranger should be able to.

 

Would be a pretty irrelevant change, so i couldn't care less.

 

(Tho technically it is not the player himself casting those skills in downstate and functional pet commands might be a requirement for lick wounds - which btw is the real op part about ranger downstate - and it is op because ressing in general is op)

Edited October 6, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[anduriell.6280]

On 10/6/2021 at 3:38 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

Then I suggest that ranger also gets the ability removed to use their beast command skills while in downstate.

No other class can cast their class mechanic skills in downstate, so I don't get why ranger should be able to.

Are you back with this and derrailing thread? i  though we aready disccused this at lenght in other thread and we come to the conclusion that is part of and specific to the ranger core mechanics and applicable to every elite. If you feel the need to discuss this in every ranger thread just open your own so we can focus in that topic again. 

 

On 10/3/2021 at 9:43 PM, Hydrolysis.6810 said:

@Anet have you noticed that core rangers and druids when their pets die:

1. Loses their profession skill(f2).
2. Lose access to some of their traits (on Pet Swap).
3. Lose some of their damage.

 

Also there is a bug with the f2 timer if pet was chilled or gained alacrity.

The penalty for letting the pet die is fine and it's part of the profession mechanic. I personaly find super boring when the pets are invulnerable like it happens in PvE. It also makes the celing of the profession even lower. 

 

Druid does not have any mechanic linked to the pet so it really shouldn't matter if the pet is not usable. We may have some points to discuss on ranger but having pets with hp and the possibity of being disabled is part of the profesion the same as them having stats and utilities separated from the player. 

 

If you don't like it is fine, you have other professions wich offer a similar mechanics but with not such a severious punishment when the minions die like mesmer or necro. 

 

That bug is specifically annoying that is true thou. Swapping pets to fix that works most of the times . 

[Kodama.6453]

4 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Are you back with this and derrailing thread? i  though we aready disccused this at lenght in other thread and we come to the conclusion that is part of and specific to the ranger core mechanics and applicable to every elite. If you feel the need to discuss this in every ranger thread just open your own so we can focus in that topic again. 

I see these topics related in the sense that many ranger players just are ok with their class mechanic working differently than all other classes as long as it benefits them, but if there is a disadvantage coming with it (like the cooldown stuff discussed here), everyone suddenly says it makes no sense "because no other class has to deal with such penalty!".

Either accept that ranger is different, so they can ignore the restrictions of the downstate unlike the other classes and have disadvantages elsewhere (dead pet = cooldown penalty), or advocate for the class to get treated similar like other classes and accept both the upsides and downsides coming with it.

Otherwise it is just cherry picking and wanting the best of two worlds. And I don't think "we" came to the conclusion about this topic as you claim, I still see it as an unintended mechanic which should get changed, especially since it is not supported by the UI, which is either terrible UI design or an oversight from Anet.

[InsaneQR.7412]

17 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I see these topics related in the sense that many ranger players just are ok with their class mechanic working differently than all other classes as long as it benefits them, but if there is a disadvantage coming with it (like the cooldown stuff discussed here), everyone suddenly says it makes no sense "because no other class has to deal with such penalty!".

Either accept that ranger is different, so they can ignore the restrictions of the downstate unlike the other classes and have disadvantages elsewhere (dead pet = cooldown penalty), or advocate for the class to get treated similar like other classes and accept both the upsides and downsides coming with it.

Otherwise it is just cherry picking and wanting the best of two worlds. And I don't think "we" came to the conclusion about this topic as you claim, I still see it as an unintended mechanic which should get changed, especially since it is not supported by the UI, which is either terrible UI design or an oversight from Anet.

Well that pets are active while you are downed makes sense for the downstate skill. That you can use F1 is not big of an issue IMO. The F2 is a bit more problematic but most F2 that are actually good are not damage oriented but provide utility which is harder to use in down state. F4 is the only one that really feels unfair because you can teleport the pet straight towards you to revive you.

 

The 1min penalty after your pet dies is an over corrective penalty. Your pet cant use any skills while downed and you are forced to swap pets. Adding a cooldown penalty is just additional unneeded punishment. I would agree though that soulbeasts should not be able to merge while your pet is downed or atleast not revive it fully. Beastmode and Petswap also should have the same base CD. A middle of the road 15s would be fair tbh. Thsi would also clean up trait intractions.

 

I personally am not of the "buff rangers so we are OP KEKW" camp. More of the "stop dumping on pets and give that class mechanic so e love and interaction".

 

I would like to see more micro managing for pet, like stat selection, skill selection, skin selection, positioning and target marking. 

Weapon skills interacting with the pet have no trait interaction, 90% of the pets are trash and their skills are outdated. Adding a 60s cooldown penalty to a dead pet is horribly inconvenient at the lightest and a unnecessary detriment at the hardest.

Edited October 7, 2021 by InsaneQR.7412

[Lazze.9870]

On 10/5/2021 at 10:03 PM, Avatar.3568 said:

You have a 15 second timer to take care of your pet, you can heal, you can cleanse condis (druid, slb and healing trap) and it's an ai that has multiple skills and attacks on duty. And it can do most of its stuff passively 

 

Yeah, let the ranger waste its own surviveability sources on an AI that can't intelligently evade attacks, stay out of AoE and WILL die even with the best of pet management once the fights get large enough.

[Lazze.9870]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I see these topics related in the sense that many ranger players just are ok with their class mechanic working differently than all other classes as long as it benefits them, but if there is a disadvantage coming with it (like the cooldown stuff discussed here), everyone suddenly says it makes no sense "because no other class has to deal with such penalty!".

 

The pet is its own entity, it makes sense that you can still use its commands when you're not fully dead, especially with one of the down skills being 100 % tied to the pet as well as several of your traits (which would still have an effect on other classes in downstate, sometimes directly enhancing them like with necro). The UI not clarying that fact however is indeed bad. 

 

Increasing swap cooldown from 20 to 60 baseline on pet deaths you sometimes can't avoid is a question of whether or not that penalty is too harsh. It is way more significant than swapping pets in downstate and maybe getting a second CC out of it to prevent getting stomped. Would I suggest removing the penalty alltogether? Not necessarily. Lowering it from a 200 % increase to a 100 %? Probably.

 

If we're gonna derail this to pros and cons, the mechanic overall has far more disadvantages. Ignoring the AI problems, Anet doesn't even bother with making boons work as they should or have them crit at the rate they should be. It needs to be properly looked at and Anet needs to iron both the advantages, few as they are, and the disadvantages. It's long overdue.

[anduriell.6280]

2 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

The pet is its own entity, it makes sense that you can still use its commands when you're not fully dead, especially with one of the down skills being 100 % tied to the pet as well as several of your traits (which would still have an effect on other classes in downstate, sometimes directly enhancing them like with necro). The UI not clarying that fact however is indeed bad. 

 

Increasing swap cooldown from 20 to 60 baseline on pet deaths you sometimes can't avoid is a question of whether or not that penalty is too harsh. It is way more significant than swapping pets in downstate and maybe getting a second CC out of it to prevent getting stomped. Would I suggest removing the penalty alltogether? Not necessarily. Lowering it from a 200 % increase to a 100 %? Probably.

 

If we're gonna derail this to pros and cons, the mechanic overall has far more disadvantages. Ignoring the AI problems, Anet doesn't even bother with making boons work as they should or have them crit at the rate they should be. It needs to be properly looked at and Anet needs to iron both the advantages, few as they are, and the disadvantages. It's long overdue.

Discussing what kodama wants makes no sense, it's like discussing why thief can do Stealth_Attack or mesmer has clones. It is part of the mechanics for the ranger.  That is not represented in UI is a very weak argument and  it wouldn't be the first thing the ranger  hasn't  updated or properly implemented. Trait Invigorating Bond does not reflect the correct heal numbers in the trait tooltip for example.  

Sword autoattack kept the locking chain leap for years although the reason to lock (the knockback) was removed from the chain during the beta. 

 

I do not think the current cooldowns or penalties for the pet needs to be changed, the numbers feel right. Punishing when the pet dies but not game breaking. 

We could discuss the pets mechanic and that ranger should be able to have more control over the survivabilty of the pet, so the profession feel like has some depth and it deppends more in the player skill than in an AI. I suggested some points in the pets rework thread so i won't repeat them here. 

Edited October 7, 2021 by anduriell.6280
grammar

[Lazze.9870]

23 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

That is not represented in UI is a very weak argument

I wasn't saying it is a good argument, I agree with the fact that it is bad UI design...

As for the rest, it is difficult to discuss what would be fair numbers when you always argue from a narrative that fits entire reworks you're proposing, reworks that will never happen. None of the ranger mechanics needs big reworks, aside from CA that needs adjustments. What is needed is to iron out stuff that simply aren't working (like boons and crit chance on pets), quality of life stuff (evade frames on pet on ranger dodges?) and poorly implemented or bad traits and skills (Invigorating Bond, #2 on staff etc).

Within that framework, decreasing the penalty from a 200 % increased cooldown on death to a 100 % increased cooldown is reasonable.
 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[HotHit.6783]

Pets getting taken out needs to have some sort of penalty for the ranger or benefit for the killer. In PvP, targetting the Ranger's pet should be a legitimate tactic, otherwise the pet is just a really annoying attack animation. If a Ranger can win or escape a fight when their pet's been downed, then they can avoid the pet cooldown, but we're at a significant disadvantage when continuing a fight like that. There's no inherent flaw in this design, honestly, it's far better than, say, Guardian blocking your biggest attack because you didn't perfectly track 40 seconds.

This does mean pets are a liability in big skirmishes and especially World vs World. But while I can't offer solutions for the latter, pets can be designed to better operate better in the former. Jacaranda, Iboga, Spiders, Bristleback, Jaguar and Smokescale are all on track for that. The first thing I would look to change is the basic commands. We used to be able to use Guard to resposition our pet. Having our F3 be old Guard's function would add skill expression to the Ranger, if that's an issue, it could perhaps be made into Core Ranger's F5?

[Lazze.9870]

19 minutes ago, HotHit.6783 said:

In PvP, targetting the Ranger's pet should be a legitimate tactic, otherwise the pet is just a really annoying attack animation

 

It is, I do it against condi rangers/druids all the time, but that is also only a fraction of cases where it actually dies.

 

19 minutes ago, HotHit.6783 said:

This does mean pets are a liability in big skirmishes and especially World vs World.

 

This is the actual issue. The pet mechanic already has a low impact in these encounters, often zero impact when those numbers get large enough in wvw. The penalty adds another layer to it by decreasing the rate you can use pet utilities when needed and also making pet swap traits worse.

One solution here is an elite spec that grants ranger a role in bigger skirmishes. One without a pet. Permanently, not like soulbeast, but still using the groundwork soulbeast provided. Otherwise we will be discussing pet problems and ranger's lack of viability (although not completely) for this kind of content until the game is dead.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[HotHit.6783]

16 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

This is the actual issue. The pet mechanic already has a low impact in these encounters, often zero impact when those numbers get large enough in wvw. The penalty adds another layer to it by decreasing the rate you can use pet utilities when needed and also making pet swap traits worse.

One solution here is an elite spec that grants ranger a role in bigger skirmishes. One without a pet. Permanently, not like soulbeast, but still using the groundwork soulbeast provided. Otherwise we will be discussing pet problems and ranger's lack of viability (although not completely) for this kind of content until the game is dead.

Soulbeast 2 definitely isn't the answer, as Soulbeast already does that. Soulbeast also has traited Dolyak and Bear stances to help work with the zerg and several ways to build it that don't need or want to pet swap. I'm by no means an expert of WvW, in fact I hate the game mode. But I think we should be asking Soulbeast to do its job better or for Druid to have pets available suited to zerg fighting, rather than make a third elite spec for the same job.

[Zyreva.1078]

My suggestion would be to make pets invulnerable while they are passive. Would make F3 (and F1) more useful. Atm it often feels useless to try and micro manage the pets, because they end up dieing anyway, so many don't bother and fuel the pet = passive dmg/cc/carry/whatever.

Attacking them would still have its benefits, as it forces the ranger to call the pet back and stop it from attacking momentarily. Increased swap cd  for dead pets should stay, but now it would be in the player's hand whether he has to deal with that penalty or not, and not just something that inevitably happens.

 

[Lazze.9870]

20 hours ago, HotHit.6783 said:

Soulbeast 2 definitely isn't the answer, as Soulbeast already does that. Soulbeast also has traited Dolyak and Bear stances to help work with the zerg and several ways to build it that don't need or want to pet swap. I'm by no means an expert of WvW, in fact I hate the game mode. But I think we should be asking Soulbeast to do its job better or for Druid to have pets available suited to zerg fighting, rather than make a third elite spec for the same job.

Replacing the pet mechanic entirely doesn't make it soulbeast 2. That's extremely narrow-minded (and I do wonder what people expect of future ranger spec if they are all going to keep the pet... running out of ideas fast). Nor can it be said that soulbeast "already does that" without fleshing out what that new mechanic would be.

And it is an answer. Soulbeast do bring shared Bear and Dolyak stance, which is useful, and it replaces a dead mechanic with a useable one when played permamerged. But asking soulbeast to do its job better than it already can would require it to get a weapon suited for large scale zerging, and that isn't happening.

With hammer already comfirmed as the next elite spec weapon, there is potential to fill the gap that soulbeast couldn't. But it all depends on a having a mechanic that is actual functional, and replacing the traditional pet mechanic is one way to do it.

Spoken from one that primarly plays WvW to one that says he has little expertise on it.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[anduriell.6280]

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

I wasn't saying it is a good argument, I agree with the fact that it is bad UI design...

As for the rest, it is difficult to discuss what would be fair numbers when you always argue from a narrative that fits entire reworks you're proposing, reworks that will never happen. None of the ranger mechanics needs big reworks, aside from CA that needs adjustments. What is needed is to iron out stuff that simply aren't working (like boons and crit chance on pets), quality of life stuff (evade frames on pet on ranger dodges?) and poorly implemented or bad traits and skills (Invigorating Bond, #2 on staff etc).

Within that framework, decreasing the penalty from a 200 % increased cooldown on death to a 100 % increased cooldown is reasonable.
 

You have a fair point there, although i think you and I share similar ideas to improve the pet survivability:

 

This is important as it allows the ranger to know what conditions and effects are impacting the pet, wihtout this is very difficult to know when to cleanse:  

• Pets appear in an party like UI in one corner of the screen, showing the boons and status conditions ( File:Party ) 

 

Survivability:

• When the ranger apply a cleansing from his own skills the pet is affected too in the same amount. 
• When the ranger gain evade frames due dodge or skills used (like Lightning_Reflexes ) the pet companion get an effect similar to Distortion for the same amount of time. 

 

Additionally this would improve the sustainability and mechanics:

• Pets would have the additional stats and base speed from Beast Mastery traitline as baseline and removed from the traitline. 
• The minor trait Fortifying Bond becomes baseline to the ranger and removed from the traitline. 
• F5 (core) - becomes a ground target skill which allows the pet to be reposition to that location. This can be used to "guide" the pet around enemy AoEs or across friendly AoEs. 

 

But everything is explained in those threads and i don't think is positive for me writting everything in every comment. Yes i propose full reworks of many mechanics because if Anet decides to change parts of it (like applying distorsion when devading or cleanses) why not fix it completely (in the thread is explained how i would do to improve the AI too) .

 

When touching code there is no small feat. 

 

After all this then yes, it may be the case the CD for swap should be revised. Right now however is my opinion the numbers are fine. 

 

 

 

[Kovu.7560]

If anything its too easy for Soulbeasts to circumvent the penalty for having their pet downed whilst unmerged. But the direction they've taken with Soulbeasts has lead to a lot of Soulbeast players remaining near permanently merged, only unmerging long enough to use a pet burst skill or utility such as smoke field (depending on the pet of course) and I'm not sure how you'd nerf a spec that can't even swap pets. There should be some drawback to Soulbeasts for having their pet die.

On the flipside, as some folks have suggested, pets instantly dying in large scale competitive content is a (small) part of what limits non-Soulbeasts from contributing more to the fight. Pets should scale to take less damage from any attacks they aren't directly the target of and should always be lowest priority targeting for AoEs. One could make a similar argument for clones or anything else that is a core element of a profession (rather than an optional trait or utility such as minions).

~ Kovu

[Lazze.9870]

On 10/10/2021 at 1:05 AM, Kovu.7560 said:

There should be some drawback to Soulbeasts for having their pet die.

 

Considering how easily it can die even with the best pet management and the fact that soulbeast has dropped out of the top tier pvp meta long time ago anyways; not really, not at the moment.

[Kovu.7560]

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Considering how easily it can die even with the best pet management and the fact that soulbeast has dropped out of the top tier pvp meta long time ago anyways; not really, not at the moment.

And if it does, you're only inconvenienced until you can re-merge (and then immediately unmerge if that's your gameplan). It's essentially a non-issue. Core rangers and Druids have to wait a full minute if they swap pets whilst one is dead, and there are practically no mechanics to revive a pet during combat. Druid pets die to a gentle breeze and pets in general die in large scale combat and cannot be stowed or in any way taught to avoid the red circles. I haven't looked at the pvp rankings but I'm willing to bet Soulbeasts finish much higher than Druids and core rangers in the standings.

~ Kovu