I have a question (and maybe a bit of whine) about the last chapter of Living World Season 3:

[Sarm.5923]

Does the whole matter of the Shining Blade initiation ever come up in later content?

 

I'm a kinda newish player, never played GW1 and missed out on LW Season 2 so I'm still trying to digest the setting as I play it. Going into HoT finding out that I apparently adopted and promptly lost a dragon egg was weird enough on its own, so when I started PoF and things went upside down again with "actually we need to preserve the dragons now," my friends suggested I pick up LW3 just so I could have a proper story bridge in between the expansions (I only went as far as getting a raptor). Overall, I've been enjoying the story, but my character is a Charr, and the part where he functionally sells his soul to a secret underground police force and swears to protect the lands and royalty of a formerly-hostile-and-only-recently-and-tepidly-ceasefired human kingdom blew me away with how out-of-place it felt. And all I got out of it was for a character (who can't go two lines without sassing you three times) gush about her plan to reenact the plot of Castlevania 2 on a villain that I hadn't properly interacted with yet.

 

I get that the racial storylines ended a whole expansion and 50 levels ago, but from what I've gathered from the setting so far, didn't my character just commit treason against his own nation by doing this? And (in theory) can't even stand with them anymore if peace talks were to break down because the Shining Blade magic oath would instakill him if he took up arms against Kryta? Even if the game would never go in that direction, I would assume the characters can't know that, so my Charr accepting this in such a blasé manner was weird. Doubly so, since I've liked how the game was utilizing small branching paths to let you nudge the way you go through the story. I can't recall if the other LW3 chapters had this option, but I'm a little surprised that it wasn't (or couldn't be?) utilized here of all places.

 

Actually, come to think of it, shouldn't this oath be impossible for a Sylvari? I thought they had a communal borg brain or something.

[Randulf.7614]

No it doesn’t. It’s never referred to again that I remember or at least utilised in any way. It’s just a throwaway piece for that episode

There was certainly comments made about Charr joining the Shining Blade at the time of release as well as other details. It’s the weakest episode for me, although I like the beginning puzzles to rescue the operative and the end fight

Your understanding of the Sylvari is a bit off though. There’s a shared connection to the Pale Tree and The Dream, but it’s not really hive mind in the classic sense.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Randulf.7614

[Batel.9206]

Sadly, no, it never comes up again. It *is* pretty jarring, honestly, especially if you're doing it with any race other than human. Best to just go along with the silly humans' play-acting, then promptly forget about it. The game certainly does. 😕

The sylvari can send memories back to the Pale Tree/the Dream, but it seems to be random. There's a fairly low chance of a sylvari sending classified information, like the business with the Shining Blade or anything to do with the Order of Whispers...otherwise, no sylvari would ever be allowed within spitting distance of anything even remotely secretive. I think the memories also lack context (as seen when a notable sylvari died years ago, and everyone knows *that* he died but not *how* he died), so even if a sylvari went through the Shining Blade's initiation rite or followed the Eye of Janthir, all the Dream would see is flashes of a weird floating pyramid eye thing and a bunch of armored humans being strange, with no real context for what's actually happening.

 

As far as the story not making sense, I'd urge you to go through Living World Season Two. The bit about the dragon egg is explained in detail, with a good deal of the storyline devoted to figuring out what this thing is, what it's meant for, and what you can do about it. And it sets up most of the story to come, from HoT onwards. (It's Season One that's permanently unavailable, though a recap video exists on YouTube...it clocks in at about three and a half hours, though, so if you want to watch it, grab some popcorn and settle in.)

 

By the way - welcome to GW2. 🙂 I hope you enjoy the game!

[Fueki.4753]

Luckily, Arenanet didn't bring up that piece of insult towards GW1 lore ever again.

23 hours ago, Sarm.5923 said:

Actually, come to think of it, shouldn't this oath be impossible for a Sylvari? I thought they had a communal borg brain or something.

One idea to circumvent this possible plot hole is that the death pact strictly refers to actively telling people.

While the information may trickle into the dream in one form or another, this is a passive progress and doesn't involve actually telling someone, so it shouldn't trigger the death pact.

And it's not like every new Sylvari will wake up and know Livia is still alive.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Sarm.5923]

That all makes more sense. With the Mordremoth stuff, I think I assumed the Dream to be the Sylvari's central nervous system of a sort and misunderstood how they shared information. Thanks for clarifying for me.

I think I'm a little relieved to hear that the initiation doesn't come up again. I couldn't really think of a way that could be further explored that I'd like anyway, nevermind something that would most likely take place in an omni-race quest.

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 10/8/2021 at 8:42 AM, Sarm.5923 said:

Does the whole matter of the Shining Blade initiation ever come up in later content?

 

I'm a kinda newish player, never played GW1 and missed out on LW Season 2 so I'm still trying to digest the setting as I play it. Going into HoT finding out that I apparently adopted and promptly lost a dragon egg was weird enough on its own, so when I started PoF and things went upside down again with "actually we need to preserve the dragons now," my friends suggested I pick up LW3 just so I could have a proper story bridge in between the expansions (I only went as far as getting a raptor). Overall, I've been enjoying the story, but my character is a Charr, and the part where he functionally sells his soul to a secret underground police force and swears to protect the lands and royalty of a formerly-hostile-and-only-recently-and-tepidly-ceasefired human kingdom blew me away with how out-of-place it felt. And all I got out of it was for a character (who can't go two lines without sassing you three times) gush about her plan to reenact the plot of Castlevania 2 on a villain that I hadn't properly interacted with yet.

 

I get that the racial storylines ended a whole expansion and 50 levels ago, but from what I've gathered from the setting so far, didn't my character just commit treason against his own nation by doing this? And (in theory) can't even stand with them anymore if peace talks were to break down because the Shining Blade magic oath would instakill him if he took up arms against Kryta? Even if the game would never go in that direction, I would assume the characters can't know that, so my Charr accepting this in such a blasé manner was weird. Doubly so, since I've liked how the game was utilizing small branching paths to let you nudge the way you go through the story. I can't recall if the other LW3 chapters had this option, but I'm a little surprised that it wasn't (or couldn't be?) utilized here of all places.

 

Actually, come to think of it, shouldn't this oath be impossible for a Sylvari? I thought they had a communal borg brain or something.

Wasn't LS3 great up until the end of episode 4?  Then all of a sudden we're doing I don't know what, chasing the wrong guy for some pre-GW2 lore tie-in that still makes no sense to me.  Oh, but at the end we get told where the guy we're actually chasing is, so I guess that's how it makes "sense"?

I'm just going to call this comically awful writing, but I still enjoyed playing through LS3 anyway.  I just wish they hadn't done episodes 5 and 6 at all.  They make zero sense and feel like somebody's lame pet project.

[Sarm.5923]

I had to doublecheck the chapters because I got 4 and 5 crossed in my head, but for the most part, I enjoyed them. Braham was annoying but I kinda get it; I don't get the impression that the game wanted me to like him in that moment anyway, and I assume the character is just in a low moment before the story starts to pull him up. I thought it was funny how my character started schmoozing with the human queen, but I didn't find it objectionable or anything, and I liked how an NPC even joked about how odd it was for me to be there. There was one uncomfortable moment where the game pointed out how she walks around barefoot which gave me bad internet vibes, but I might have just been taking that moment too cynically.

The Caudecus fight ripped me a new one, haha. I heard it used to be much harder, and I certainly complained about the fight to my friends, but I also know I'm still trying to break some bad habits I learned from leveling up in the base game, so I don't know how much of it was really my fault versus the game. It was mainly the add golem repeatedly ragdolling me into endless AoE, along with me not-yet-knowing I could keybind the special action button, so I was often failing to mouseclick it in time because I was too busy fighting with the confined camera angle.

I didn't even mind the Balthazar reveal that much. Yeah, it was pretty weird that I didn't really know who Lazarus was in the first place, so the fakeout of "this villain you don't know is actually another villain you don't know" didn't land, but I'm also aware that I'm new to the franchise and jumping into a sequel so these things are just going to happen. And the context of the scene was clear enough that he was a big deal of a human god, given that one NPC freaking out and having a crisis of faith to the point that she ran away in the middle of battle. I think the only thing that really short-circuited me was the oath itself, especially on the word of a character who failed to endear me to her. But after I searched the forum a bit (which I suppose I should have done before posting this thread), I can see I'm not the only one it didn't land with.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Sarm.5923

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Sarm.5923 said:

I had to doublecheck the chapters because I got 4 and 5 crossed in my head, but for the most part, I enjoyed them. Braham was annoying but I kinda get it; I don't get the impression that the game wanted me to like him in that moment anyway, and I assume the character is just in a low moment before the story starts to pull him up. I thought it was funny how my character started schmoozing with the human queen, but I didn't find it objectionable or anything, and I liked how an NPC even joked about how odd it was for me to be there. There was one uncomfortable moment where the game pointed out how she walks around barefoot which gave me bad internet vibes, but I might have just been taking that moment too cynically.

The Caudecus fight ripped me a new one, haha. I heard it used to be much harder, and I certainly complained about the fight to my friends, but I also know I'm still trying to break some bad habits I learned from leveling up in the base game, so I don't know how much of it was really my fault versus the game. It was mainly the add golem repeatedly ragdolling me into endless AoE, along with me not-yet-knowing I could keybind the special action button, so I was often failing to mouseclick it in time because I was too busy fighting with the confined camera angle.

I didn't even mind the Balthazar reveal that much. Yeah, it was pretty weird that I didn't really know who Lazarus was in the first place, so the fakeout of "this villain you don't know is actually another villain you don't know" didn't land, but I'm also aware that I'm new to the franchise and jumping into a sequel so these things are just going to happen. And the context of the scene was clear enough that he was a big deal of a human god, given that one NPC freaking out and having a crisis of faith to the point that she ran away in the middle of battle. I think the only thing that really short-circuited me was the oath itself, especially on the word of a character who failed to endear me to her. But after I searched the forum a bit (which I suppose I should have done before posting this thread), I can see I'm not the only one it didn't land with.

Did you know if you kill Caudecus quickly enough, the golem never spawns?  Much easier!

[Sarm.5923]

Huh, no I didn't. I think I assumed it to be part of the phase transitions every 25%, since that's how it felt like it lined up when I did the encounter. I'll keep that in mind if I ever redo the scenario, but frankly I sucked way too hard to ever pull off the DPS for that. 😛

[AliamRationem.5172]

31 minutes ago, Sarm.5923 said:

Huh, no I didn't. I think I assumed it to be part of the phase transitions every 25%, since that's how it felt like it lined up when I did the encounter. I'll keep that in mind if I ever redo the scenario, but frankly I sucked way too hard to ever pull off the DPS for that. 😛

There actually aren't any breakpoints in this fight, so it's possible to take the boss from 100-0 in a single kill phase.

[RyuDragnier.9476]

On 10/10/2021 at 1:25 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Wasn't LS3 great up until the end of episode 4?  Then all of a sudden we're doing I don't know what, chasing the wrong guy for some pre-GW2 lore tie-in that still makes no sense to me.  Oh, but at the end we get told where the guy we're actually chasing is, so I guess that's how it makes "sense"?

I'm just going to call this comically awful writing, but I still enjoyed playing through LS3 anyway.  I just wish they hadn't done episodes 5 and 6 at all.  They make zero sense and feel like somebody's lame pet project.

IMO it wasn't. LS3 in general for me was pretty bad. It had a good start, but then all of a sudden we're jumping all over the place. There wasn't really an overarching plot as much as it was multiple subplots jumping all over the place. Compare that to LS4 where the first half is a single arc and the second half is another arc.

[AliamRationem.5172]

37 minutes ago, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

IMO it wasn't. LS3 in general for me was pretty bad. It had a good start, but then all of a sudden we're jumping all over the place. There wasn't really an overarching plot as much as it was multiple subplots jumping all over the place. Compare that to LS4 where the first half is a single arc and the second half is another arc.

Hmm, I guess I didn't mind that part of it and I'd much rather fight a villain like Caudecus with some political intrigue than silly gods and dragons.  I also really enjoyed most of the LS3 maps.  So, for me it was pretty decent!  LS4 was even better!

[RyuDragnier.9476]

15 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Hmm, I guess I didn't mind that part of it and I'd much rather fight a villain like Caudecus with some political intrigue than silly gods and dragons.  I also really enjoyed most of the LS3 maps.  So, for me it was pretty decent!  LS4 was even better!

It's more the order. Imagine if instead of the order we got, it started with the funeral, but when we went to see Taimi, she mentions then that Primordus is active, and we start Rising Flames. Then it goes to A Crack in the Ice. After that THEN we do Out of the Shadows, to The Head of the Snake. We'd have a better flowing story leading into Flashpoint. Keep in mind said order would also include having dialogue moved around a little so there's nothing conflicting with it.

With such an order, the story would start escalating, with the Elder Dragons for the first two episodes, the White Mantle for episodes 3 and 4, then events from both would combine into dealing with Balthazar and the loose ends for Episodes 5 and 6. Saddens me that Lazarus was a loose end along with Livia, but I have a feeling the writing team was mostly working on PoF at that time.

Edited October 18, 2021 by RyuDragnier.9476

[Gorem.8104]

Ah I remember this topic on the week that Living world was free, I joined in then too. Cause I'd just played lw3 for the first time, and it was going fine till this part. 

I play Charr as well, and was like, "where's my option to say no, please, stop, I don't wanna do this, please, game, what are you doing, where is my choices like you gave me in the personal story, game, please, stop please, what are you doing. Everyone who does this has to live through being crushed by rocks? Surely they'd kill a lot of humans that way. 
Never before had we needed to sign a "death pact" for some information. Yet some reason my Charr was perfectly fine with signing it against his own nation. 

 

Rest of living world 3 was fine, but that bit stood out like such a sore thumb. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Gorem.8104

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Ah I remember this topic on the week that Living world was free, I joined in then too. Cause I'd just played lw3 for the first time, and it was going fine till this part. 

I play Charr as well, and was like, "where's my option to say no, please, stop, I don't wanna do this, please, game, what are you doing, where is my choices like you gave me in the personal story, game, please, stop please, what are you doing. Everyone who does this has to live through being crushed by rocks? Surely they'd kill a lot of humans that way. 
Never before had we needed to sign a "death pact" for some information. Yet some reason my Charr was perfectly fine with signing it against his own nation. 

 

Rest of living world 3 was fine, but that bit stood out like such a sore thumb. 

Yeah, the story definitely took a nosedive off a cliff into "wtf is even going on here!?" territory after S3E4.  Why are the final two episodes devoted to characters that have literally nothing at all to do with our story?  I still don't understand their thinking on this one.  It was really jarring and it's a shame because I loved S3 while we were dealing with Caudecus.  It just didn't make the slightest bit of sense and that shining blade ritual was the dumbest thing I've ever seen in the story at any point.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 10/8/2021 at 4:42 PM, Sarm.5923 said:

Does the whole matter of the Shining Blade initiation ever come up in later content?

Fortunately, it does not.

They ruined the Shining Blade in GW2, it has become a laughing matter after that awful initiation story mission. The cutscenes  in it actually cracked me up, I thought I was watching a bad comedy. And the fact that just anyone with no cultural connection to the Throne of Kryta or personal interest in Krytan politics (apart from threats to the world as a whole) can join just like that deprived the instituton of any credibility.

[Kayberz.5346]

This is one of those things where i feel like there is going to be a follow up on this plot point in the future but its probably not going to be until well after EoD.

 

These episodes currently as they are just seem like a disjointed plot with no purpose,  but i think they will be something that ages well post EoD when we start exploring plots outside of the elder dragons.

 

Just a few things to note:

Livia is revealed to us as a character, with the scepter  of orr in her possession and is now doing "something" after the events of s3, this allows her being met again in a future story to be more natural and feel cohesive.

We are now bound by an oath to the shining blade to protect kryta and their interests, this could potentially play out in a way were we are hunted down by the shinning blade for percieved betrayal because of some future plot point or perhaps our interest as the commander will conflict with the interests with the shinning blade which can lead to spicy drama. And this also allows the narrative to have the commander obligated to assist in some krytan matter that would not be something we as a potential outsider would be informed of or have a direct involvement in, which could lead into a grander plot as we discover more by helping the shinning blade. (Like secret mursaat stuff or isles of janthir related plots)

 

Its easy to be pessimistic with this kind of mindset because anet currently doesn't have the best track record of resolving loose story threads, but i do believe these things have a purpose in the grand scheme of gw2s story

 

[Sarm.5923]

Yeah, I get that the game needs to seed future story bits in order to keep the plot going, and there's always going to be an element of the hero being thrown into wild and wacky situations or else you don't have much of a hero's journey story to tell. Doing that seems perfectly fine to me.

It was just an extreme whiplash moment that the player character seems to jump right in without question, given that Charr having an opposing background compared to humans. I don't know how the other races fare politically with humans, but I remember my leveling experience being very upfront that the ink on the ceasefire still isn't dry, and racial tension felt like a strong secondary theme throughout the zones. That's what made the cult-like death oath stuff so wowie when I saw it last month. 😛

Edited November 10, 2021 by Sarm.5923

[Rogue.8235]

On 10/18/2021 at 1:28 AM, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

IMO it wasn't. LS3 in general for me was pretty bad. It had a good start, but then all of a sudden we're jumping all over the place. There wasn't really an overarching plot as much as it was multiple subplots jumping all over the place. Compare that to LS4 where the first half is a single arc and the second half is another arc.

 

On 10/18/2021 at 5:50 PM, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

It's more the order. Imagine if instead of the order we got, it started with the funeral, but when we went to see Taimi, she mentions then that Primordus is active, and we start Rising Flames. Then it goes to A Crack in the Ice. After that THEN we do Out of the Shadows, to The Head of the Snake. We'd have a better flowing story leading into Flashpoint. Keep in mind said order would also include having dialogue moved around a little so there's nothing conflicting with it.

With such an order, the story would start escalating, with the Elder Dragons for the first two episodes, the White Mantle for episodes 3 and 4, then events from both would combine into dealing with Balthazar and the loose ends for Episodes 5 and 6. Saddens me that Lazarus was a loose end along with Livia, but I have a feeling the writing team was mostly working on PoF at that time.

 

I personally enjoy chaotic plots.  Things aren;'t so neat and orderly.  Things happen and, in the case of Season 3, people are just reacting the best they can to all the stuff going on.  

Nice, neat, and orderly plots are too... implausible.  It's very juvenile because it's so far-fetched compared to reality.  I'm coming from my experiences down range (combat deployed).  Nothing ever comes neatly.

I do understand that others (possibly the majority) prefer the style of writing quoted above.  I'm just saying I personally enjoy chaotic/desperate plots because it is vastly more relatable. 

 

Edit:  As for the Shining Blade side-plot, the Commander's willingness to join is a statement of how desperate s/he is.  World ending events are happening in more ways than one and the Commander has yet to be able to accomplish anything to stop it.  The Commander deploys to wherever it seems like something could be done but the end result is that things are only getting worse, not better.  

It makes it plausible.  However, I still detest desperate actions from anyone who, supposedly, is a military leader.  The Commander was wrong for resorting to the Shining Blade without, first, analyzing the situation in full.  Desperate actions lead to compounding problems.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Rogue.8235

[LSD.4673]

On 11/8/2021 at 7:24 AM, Ashantara.8731 said:

The cutscenes  in it actually cracked me up, I thought I was watching a bad comedy.

Do you not get that feeling for the story as a whole? Every cutscene makes me want to bury my face away in shame.

[Sarm.5923]

37 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

Do you not get that feeling for the story as a whole? Every cutscene makes me want to bury my face away in shame.

I know this is outside of the scope of my thread so I'm going to stick this in spoiler tags just on the off-chance someone else is still working their way through the story as well and doesn't want this spoiled for them unprompted, but the other day I finally finished LW4 chapter 3, and I was pretty kitten enraptured by it.

 

Spoiler

I thought the game did a great job portraying Joko as a powerful yet joyously narcissistic villain. Both the creep factor and the humor revolved entirely around his "me me me" attitude up until you "beat" him, at which point you're locked in place and he reveals that the one thing he's truthful about is the fact that you REALLY can't kill him after all. And then he launches into his monologue and I'm like "holy crap he's not delusional after all" because even his insanity is carefully sculpted for his benefit. All the while he's making gross little bone-crunching sounds as he straightens his body back out. And then he gets the rug pulled out from under him because in his moment of triumph, he forgot about your baby dragon.

To be honest, I'm not sure if the game's going to be able to top that for me. I loved it all so much.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Sarm.5923

[LSD.4673]

^ I thought that character was pretty well done, too...right up to that exact cutscene. His little monologue came off as contrived and hamfisted. It was like trying to climb aboard the craze of "grey" characterisations.

[Ashantara.8731]

14 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

Do you not get that feeling for the story as a whole? Every cutscene makes me want to bury my face away in shame.

🤣 I can't imagine why.

12 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

^ I thought that character was pretty well done, too...right up to that exact cutscene. His little monologue came off as contrived and hamfisted. It was like trying to climb aboard the craze of "grey" characterisations.

Hah, in this case we disagree. I thought it fit perfectly into his narcissism, we know how much he loves to hear himself talk. I liked the humor, too: his pride in his invincibility, the lecture he of all people gave us, and then the "interruption" by Aurene.

But that was Season 4, so off-topic.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Ashantara.8731