Untamed Hammer damage is OK on the Golem.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

I was actually able to benchmark the Untamed with GS/Hammer higher than Soulbeast with any combination of traits, weapons or skills. I'm not exactly a raid rotation expert here, but just trying it out for myself, I was able to beat Soulbeast by a couple thousand DPS which really surprised me considering the highest I got on Soulbeast was GS-D/A.

I used this (assume one GS is a Hammer) Ranger Perma-Unleased. Debilitating Blows and Ferocious Symbiosis. Camp Tiger. I used all boons. I did also test it with self generated boons and they were about the same. Maybe the ability to bring Tiger made a decent difference, since Power Soulbeast usually brings pets for CC, which we will have access to on Hammer.

Has anyone else tested it out on the golem?

Edited October 30, 2021 by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

[anduriell.6280]

3 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

I was actually able to benchmark the Untamed with GS/Hammer higher than Soulbeast with any combination of traits, weapons or skills. I'm not exactly a raid rotation expert here, but just trying it out for myself, I was able to beat Soulbeast by a couple thousand DPS which really surprised me considering the highest I got on Soulbeast was GS-D/A.

I used this (assume one GS is a Hammer) Ranger Perma-Unleased. Debilitating Blows and Ferocious Symbiosis. Camp Tiger. I used all boons. I did also test it with self generated boons and they were about the same. Maybe the ability to bring Tiger made a decent difference, since Power Soulbeast usually brings pets for CC, which we will have access to on Hammer.

Has anyone else tested it out on the golem?

Isnt the metrics for this around 28k in golem?

which numbers did you get?

Is it possible you are not doing a good rotation with the soulbeast?

[Zyreva.1078]

Just from looking at the numbers there is no way Untamed provides more dps than soulbeast, let alone with hammer instead of ranger's best dps weapon set (sword/axe). Pets add very little dps, which is why soulbeast is best played perma merged in PvE and a 30% dmg modifier does not compare to the amount of modifiers, additional stats and dmg skills soulbeast has access to.

If you deal more dmg with Untamed than with soulbeast, it is because your soulbeast build and/or rotation are bad. Not because Untamed is better.

Edited October 30, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

10 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Isnt the metrics for this around 28k in golem?

which numbers did you get?

Is it possible you are not doing a good rotation with the soulbeast?

 

10 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Just from looking at the numbers there is no way Untamed provides more dps than soulbeast, let alone with hammer instead of ranger's best dps weapon set (sword/axe). Pets add very little dps, which is why soulbeast is best played perma merged in PvE and a 30% dmg modifier does not compare to the amount of modifiers, additional stats and dmg skills soulbeast has access to.

If you deal more dmg with Untamed than with soulbeast, it is because your soulbeast build and/or rotation are bad. Not because Untamed is better.

I didn't exactly make my point about not being great at raid rotations clear in my OP. So it is definitely the case that I am bad at it. But the surprising thing is, although I was running through the Metabattle Power Soulbeast build and rotation, it didn't net me any better damage than the Untamed build and rotation I made up on the spot.

[Arheundel.6451]

The hammer is a control weapon overall and on ranger it does already ok dmg for a what supposed to be a control weapon with boonrip, this community is obssesed with this DPS and golem numbers when utility and build variety comes first....

[Infusion.7149]

Hammer doesn't have the coefficients to compete with soulbeast on Greatsword , dagger+axe (for single target), or sword+axe. Your only payoff is when you have more than 3 targets.
You're losing +300 ferocity merged bonus along with +150 all attributes, and the Untamed pet does ~2K DPS because it doesn't use the normal pet skills. You'd have to make up a 20% damage modifier on top of Sic Em bonus (25%) for every burst phase (Whirling Defense/Barrage) and OWP...

On Untamed essentially anything that only affects the pet is worthless (as even a +100% modifier is only ~4K DPS), such as Maul.

Due to the -15% damage in Unleash Ranger I've seen tests with condi Untamed pulling 33K DPS (see 1 , 2).

The irony of it all is Twice as Vicious on Soulbeast fits Untamed more.

What Arheundel keeps missing is that in PVP/WVW people can have stability/protection and the untamed does nothing to remove those specifically (unlike revenants running Brutality) and in fractals things have breakbars so any CC is more meaningful based on its defiance bar value rather than some contrived notion of boon rip and CC chains in PVE. If you believe untamed competes with renegade (600 CC on < 12s cooldown) or firebrand with sanctuary for example I don't know what to say.

• Overbearing Smash = 150 CC (12s cooldown) and you pay a outgoing 15% damage penalty on Vow of the Untamed
• Thump = 200 CC (20s cooldown) --- should probably be remade to match warrior's mace Tremor in PVE with 300 CC or do 4s knockdown / 400 CC vs single targets in PVE , if there's a condi renegade they get a ranged 2s knockdown with Scorchrazor on 12 cooldown too
• Savage Shockwave's immob = 50/s = 100 CC before expertise (15s cooldown) but you want to use the flip side of it for damage.

The Overbearing Smash CC doesn't even match Charge on Rock Gazelle which is 200 CC daze on 12s cooldown.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Zenith.7301]

2 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The hammer is a control weapon overall and on ranger it does already ok dmg for a what supposed to be a control weapon with boonrip, this community is obssesed with this DPS and golem numbers when utility and build variety comes first....

 

 

CC and boon rip are worthless in PvE. You can do a breakbar with any comp, CC is superfluous, and boon rip comes passive from mesmer and necro whereas ranger would have to spec for it or hurt their DPS.

[Leonidrex.5649]

Hammer is tragic.
Honestly, shortbow does everything hammer does but better AND from range. there is 0 reason to use hammer other then for the heck of it. Why the kitten would I spend 1s to stun for 2s, at melee when I can do the same kitten from 900 range and 0,25s cast time.
And the damage is better anyways as you can hit things with sb while hammer has 120-180 range and 0 mobility

[Dadnir.5038]

10 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The hammer is a control weapon overall and on ranger it does already ok dmg for a what supposed to be a control weapon with boonrip, this community is obssesed with this DPS and golem numbers when utility and build variety comes first....

You are right in claiming that the hammer do "ok" damage for a control weapon. However other players are also right in claiming that, even outside of hammer builds, the Untamed do not have what it take to be competitive "number wise" against soulbeast (it got 26.5% increase damage from the traitline and 26.5% critical damage + extra power... etc. The 32.25% extra damage of Untamed + pet just can't compete against more than 60% damage modifier of soulbeast)

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

On 10/30/2021 at 2:19 AM, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

I was actually able to benchmark the Untamed with GS/Hammer higher than Soulbeast with any combination of traits, weapons or skills. I'm not exactly a raid rotation expert here, but just trying it out for myself, I was able to beat Soulbeast by a couple thousand DPS which really surprised me considering the highest I got on Soulbeast was GS-D/A.

I used this (assume one GS is a Hammer) Ranger Perma-Unleased. Debilitating Blows and Ferocious Symbiosis. Camp Tiger. I used all boons. I did also test it with self generated boons and they were about the same. Maybe the ability to bring Tiger made a decent difference, since Power Soulbeast usually brings pets for CC, which we will have access to on Hammer.

Has anyone else tested it out on the golem?

This is interesting, but is it practical to use Berserker + Scholar in open world as a melee, especially w/o Restorative Strikes? To me, its not - with no barrier and little other defense in that build. Maybe others can do it, but I doubt I could without visiting downstate often. The beta is over, so I can't try it now (didn't have scholar runes anyway).

[Beddo.1907]

The first question about a weapon shouldn't be "Is it good?"

It should be "Is it better than other weapons?"

Right now aside from breakbar damage it's underperforming even if you use it in the best case scenario (enemy is cc'd and has a lot of condi types on it).

Also the amount of utility it has is painful to see.

[Leonidrex.5649]

4 hours ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

This is interesting, but is it practical to use Berserker + Scholar in open world as a melee, especially w/o Restorative Strikes? To me, its not - with no barrier and little other defense in that build. Maybe others can do it, but I doubt I could without visiting downstate often. The beta is over, so I can't try it now (didn't have scholar runes anyway).

you can just use eagle or spellbreaker runes, dps loss is so marginal.. and realistically those runes do better dps then any other
people see snowcrows benchmarks and think scholar is best everywhere, when in reality its only good with a healer.
there is also a rune that summons a pet, that I think is even better then all of these ( forgot the name, ogre I think ? )
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Ogre
its surprisingly good

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

you can just use eagle or spellbreaker runes, dps loss is so marginal.. and realistically those runes do better dps then any other
people see snowcrows benchmarks and think scholar is best everywhere, when in reality its only good with a healer.
there is also a rune that summons a pet, that I think is even better then all of these ( forgot the name, ogre I think ? )
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Ogre
its surprisingly good

No, its not that - I meant that during the beta your beta characters are limited to only using the runes in the provided beta gear, or runes you have previously put in your bank, or legendary runes. I don't have legendary runes nor did I have any scholar/ogre/eagle/etc runes in my bank. (I used surging runes - only one I had in the bank that was power-oriented.)

Outside of a beta, yes, I would just go to the TP and buy whatever to test them.

[Infusion.7149]

30 minutes ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

No, its not that - I meant that during the beta your beta characters are limited to only using the runes in the provided beta gear, or runes you have previously put in your bank, or legendary runes. I don't have legendary runes nor did I have any scholar/ogre/eagle/etc runes in my bank. (I used surging runes - only one I had in the bank that was power-oriented.)

Outside of a beta, yes, I would just go to the TP and buy whatever to test them.

Uh scholar rune is what most power ranger players use. The only class that doesn't use scholar rune is warrior , which uses thief runes.
Even if you don't have the 5% health mod over 90% health it would do comparable damage to another rune without the huge +225 ferocity bonus.

From discretize, unchecking the Mist potion and putting Sharpening stone instead of slaying potion for the marksmanship soulbeast:

• Eagle and Scholar = 29K
• Spellbreaker = 28.6K
• Flame Legion = 28K
• Scholar, without bonus = 27.6K
• Ogre = 27.5K
• Strength = 27.4K
• Pack = 27K
   

Snowcrows (skirmishing soulbeast):

• Scholar rune 100% uptime = 25K
• Eagle rune = 23.9K
• Thief rune = 23.8K
• Scholar rune 0% uptime = 23.8K
• Golemancer = 23K

Scholar runes were in the boxes from the beta so there isn't any reason a baseline power damage could not have been obtained.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

36 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Uh scholar rune is what most power ranger players use. The only class that doesn't use scholar rune is warrior , which uses thief runes.
Even if you don't have the 5% health mod over 90% health it would do comparable damage to another rune without the huge +225 ferocity bonus.

From discretize, unchecking the Mist potion and putting Sharpening stone instead of slaying potion for the marksmanship soulbeast:

• Eagle and Scholar = 29K
• Spellbreaker = 28.6K
• Flame Legion = 28K
• Scholar, without bonus = 27.6K
• Ogre = 27.5K
• Strength = 27.4K
• Pack = 27K
   

Snowcrows (skirmishing soulbeast):

• Scholar rune 100% uptime = 25K
• Eagle rune = 23.9K
• Thief rune = 23.8K
• Scholar rune 0% uptime = 23.8K
• Golemancer = 23K

Scholar runes were in the boxes from the beta so there isn't any reason a baseline power damage could not have been obtained.

-sigh- I know what scholar runes runes are. But kitten, I didn't see scholar runes when I opened the beta gear. I just saw Divinity runes in the gear. Maybe I should have opened that last box. 

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

7 hours ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

This is interesting, but is it practical to use Berserker + Scholar in open world as a melee, especially w/o Restorative Strikes? To me, its not - with no barrier and little other defense in that build. Maybe others can do it, but I doubt I could without visiting downstate often. The beta is over, so I can't try it now (didn't have scholar runes anyway).

It's the same survivability as core really. And for OW, I would not run that build. That was just a bit of screwing around on the golem.

5 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

The first question about a weapon shouldn't be "Is it good?"

It should be "Is it better than other weapons?"

Right now aside from breakbar damage it's underperforming even if you use it in the best case scenario (enemy is cc'd and has a lot of condi types on it).

Also the amount of utility it has is painful to see.

I don't agree with your question since different situations call for different things. Wanting one weapon to be better than others is not realistic and what creates power creep. It just needs to be good in and of itself, for the situations it is designed for.

I agree utility is very much lacking. There is no mobility, it needs a leap, and only has access to one finisher as well.

[Beddo.1907]

49 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

I don't agree with your question since different situations call for different things. Wanting one weapon to be better than others is not realistic and what creates power creep. It just needs to be good in and of itself, for the situations it is designed for.

I'm talking more about "Is it better than other weapons?" as a question that leads to comparison. 

While I agree that we can't have a weapon that's better all around since it does lead to power creep, but making a weapon that underperforms in nearly everything and around average with the main weapon role leads to a weapon that you won't play.

Hammer was supposed to be based around CC and condi/boon manipulation and it clearly isn't enough to counter the skillset weaknesses such as (looking aside from the issues that come from the spec itself): no team boons, conditions are very limited, no utility, only one combo finisher and no mobility.

1 hour ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

It just needs to be good in and of itself, for the situations it is designed for.

So as we can see it's not bringing anything worthy to the table like other weapons do. (Aside for staff and mh dagger but that's a discussion for another day)

[Puck.3697]

On 10/30/2021 at 7:19 AM, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

I was actually able to benchmark the Untamed with GS/Hammer higher than Soulbeast with any combination of traits, weapons or skills. I'm not exactly a raid rotation expert here, but just trying it out for myself, I was able to beat Soulbeast by a couple thousand DPS which really surprised me considering the highest I got on Soulbeast was GS-D/A.

I used this (assume one GS is a Hammer) Ranger Perma-Unleased. Debilitating Blows and Ferocious Symbiosis. Camp Tiger. I used all boons. I did also test it with self generated boons and they were about the same. Maybe the ability to bring Tiger made a decent difference, since Power Soulbeast usually brings pets for CC, which we willhave access to on Hammer.

Has anyone else tested it out on the golem?

That's cool and all but doing 28k DPS on golem isn't fine. The other EoD elites do 45-50k DPS lol 

[Leonidrex.5649]

23 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

That's cool and all but doing 28k DPS on golem isn't fine. The other EoD elites do 45-50k DPS lol 

28k dps isnt that bad, some changes here and there and we could get 30k+ which IMO is already enough to do all content, problem is that in pve untamed has dps only... which is sad, as their break-bar damage is actually very low, 1 sanctuary from my FB will do more then 2 pets, hammer AND gs from untamed

[Puck.3697]

15 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

28k dps isnt that bad, some changes here and there and we could get 30k+ which IMO is already enough to do all content, problem is that in pve untamed has dps only... which is sad, as their break-bar damage is actually very low, 1 sanctuary from my FB will do more then 2 pets, hammer AND gs from untamed

Exactly. Why is Spectre doing 48k DPS with do many utility options while we do 20k DPS less with no utility? 

It isn't about "doing enough DPS to do all content" it's about being competitive with other speccs. 

Gunblade the other pure DPS does 50k DPS, now sure we get CC. But what about builds not using hammer. 

[Infusion.7149]

3 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

28k dps isnt that bad, some changes here and there and we could get 30k+ which IMO is already enough to do all content, problem is that in pve untamed has dps only... which is sad, as their break-bar damage is actually very low, 1 sanctuary from my FB will do more then 2 pets, hammer AND gs from untamed

As someone who played condi scourge before it was a 37K spec... 28K DPS isn't enough for a power spec, especially one whose main weapon is in melee (= lower DPS uptime and can be kited). 28K is power quickness scrapper levels of damage.
The mediocre CC as I outlined above isn't enough to be put into a party so it would be an openworld spec.

The whole point of playing power is being able to burst harder than condition builds.

A year or two ago power reaper was also a 28K spec and people would say "no reapers" despite their flexibility with respect to boons/CC/boon rip. This is bound to end up the same unless the damage modifiers are fixed up and/or the payoff in PVE against defiance bars is far higher. If Maul has 1.5K tooltip for example, Hammer would need something like 2K+ tooltip vs CC-ed targets to make up the difference in traitline damage mods. The +20% damage on some Untamed hammer skills currently only makes up for the +300 ferocity bonus while merged on soulbeast. Maybe against single targets with defiance bars it should do double CC damage if it doesn't get a CC boost in PVE, i.e. 200CC becomes 400CC. Right now all the CC components of hammer (Overbearing Smash/Thump) are on the Unleash Pet side of it and Unleash Ranger has a cooldown which means you have -15% damage from the minor Vow of the Untamed , so they can start by removing that penalty.

In PVE it should be if you want a CC replacement for alac ren or BS (another class that would be taken) and want spotter you bring Untamed, especially when the cleave is helpful (i.e. for WVW , but also in W2 Sloth / W1 Gorseval /W3 Xera/W6 Conjured Amalgamate for example). Why would anyone run this over staff daredevil with Basilisk Venom for example (sustain-wise you can run Invigorating Precision on thief)? Which brings me to my second point in the main feedback thread, should have targeted boon rip (protection or stability) in WVW because it won't have as much damage in WVW stanceshare soulbeast.
If you don't run the 10% damage to heal trait on Untamed I don't think it will be more survivable than core/soulbeast in PVP even in teamfight.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

5 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

That's cool and all but doing 28k DPS on golem isn't fine. The other EoD elites do 45-50k DPS lol 

There is no content in this game where 28k isn't high enough. Those other specs need a serious nerf. Just because one spec is doing massive numbers as a DPS spec, doesn't mean every spec should. Why bother making different specs if they all do the same damage as one another? If they do the same damage as one another, the one with the most utility will be brought while the others discarded. 

 

 

Edit: I think a lot of people over emphasize the need for high DPS numbers, particularly for raiding. Something with an easy rotation that can do 25k is far better than something with an extremely complicated one that does 40k. Take Gorseval for example; 21 million health and a 7 minute enrage. For 10 people, that's 5000 DPS. Doing 5x that amount should allow you to do the mechanics and still beat it without much drama.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

There is no content in this game where 28k isn't high enough. Those other specs need a serious nerf. Just because one spec is doing massive numbers as a DPS spec, doesn't mean every spec should. Why bother making different specs if they all do the same damage as one another? If they do the same damage as one another, the one with the most utility will be brought while the others discarded. 

 

 

Edit: I think a lot of people over emphasize the need for high DPS numbers, particularly for raiding. Something with an easy rotation that can do 25k is far better than something with an extremely complicated one that does 40k. Take Gorseval for example; 21 million health and a 7 minute enrage. For 10 people, that's 5000 DPS. Doing 5x that amount should allow you to do the mechanics and still beat it without much drama.

I think you miss the context here. 

You cannot take speccs with utility and give them 45k DPS. 

Then hand the pure DPS 28k DPS. 

And expect a raid leader to say "weeeellll we don't "need" 40k+ DPS". You will bench the ranger and take the 45k DPS option. That's just factual. 

Ontop of this soulbeast does 37k DPS. Another pure DPS option of the ranger.. like honestly. Your trolling your raid if your gonna intentionally do 9k less DPS. 

Sure if you make every pure DPS do 28k DPS and bring speccs with buffs/support do 20k DPS. Then yes 28k DPS is fine. 

But on that level your argument is to litterally nerf every build and specc in the game and coming in EoD by over half of their current DPS in some cases. 

Which ones realistically more likely. 

Even if they bring the other EoD speccs down to 35k-40k DPS. No ones taking a 28k ranger over them and the specc is actually quite abit of work to play with the quantity of button increases and more going on there. 

There's tons of speccs that will just do alot more DMG. With alot less effort. 

The only current 28k DPS build we have is barrier / quickness scrapper... Which is litterally bringing perma quickness and 3k barrier per second. 

You believe untamed and scrapper are in the same league?  We are doing the damage of a non-meta support build. And being out dps'd by the rest of them.

I'm sorry but compared to the current elites DPS and EoD elites 28k is too low for a pure DPS. Now yes they can nerf everything else down to balance this but either we need to go up or they need to go down.

This argument is silly. People don't focus on high numbers. People focus on what will get them into groups. You don't need 45k DPS sure.yoy don't need 36k DPS either. But here's the fact

Time = money. 

Higher the number, the faster the boss dies. These kills get uploaded. A meta is created, people won't accept non-meta options. People are forced to reroll. 

Numbers don't matter

What matters is community perception, and if your a pure DPS equaling supports in DPS your unwanted and the community won't invite you regardless. 

Don't act like this is a EoD specc problem. 

There are firebrand dragonhunter mesmer builds doing 40k +. Soulbeast does 37k DPS even 

Why is soulbeast a pure DPS doing 37k DPS, while untamed a pure DPS is doing 28k? Where is the logic in releasing a weaker form of their current elite specc. 

I'd love to see the day where 30k is the highest DPS capable. That's be great. But it won't happen. We are gonna see 40k dpsers. And as a pure DPS untamed needs to be up there too.

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Infusion.7149]

9 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

There is no content in this game where 28k isn't high enough. Those other specs need a serious nerf. Just because one spec is doing massive numbers as a DPS spec, doesn't mean every spec should. Why bother making different specs if they all do the same damage as one another? If they do the same damage as one another, the one with the most utility will be brought while the others discarded. 

 

 

Edit: I think a lot of people over emphasize the need for high DPS numbers, particularly for raiding. Something with an easy rotation that can do 25k is far better than something with an extremely complicated one that does 40k. Take Gorseval for example; 21 million health and a 7 minute enrage. For 10 people, that's 5000 DPS. Doing 5x that amount should allow you to do the mechanics and still beat it without much drama.

If your standard is hitting enrage then it is quite poor. Also if a squad is 10 people and 3+ people are support (druid, CQB/quickness scrapper, alac , banner, etc) you're going to be breaking walls on Gorseval and most PUG groups don't even want to deal with that and would rather kick the ranger running untamed instead of soulbeast... You're also not accounting for split phases where you do zero damage to the boss.

As far as easy rotation, berserker is more or less F1 spam,  staff daredevil does ~22K auto, a scrapper with grenade kit (so equivalent to single weapon swap but without 9s cooldown), reaper camping shroud when lifeforce is not an issue, or a holo with photon forge and running PBM are far easier than Untamed because of the random cooldown added onto Unleash (F5).

If your average pDPS does ~34-37K (Berserker, holo, radiance DH, daredevil, tempest, soulbeast, DPS scrapper, pChrono, power ren, reaper, etc) what you're suggesting is to nerf every single DPS spec in the game when that has been the case since roughly 2018. That isn't likely.

See https://web.archive.org/web/20181007173006/https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

That's akin to saying everyone in the world is using a standard for compressive strength of a structural steel so we need to lower the standard because we made a new steel alloy.

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If your average pDPS does ~34-37K (Berserker, holo, radiance DH, daredevil, tempest, soulbeast, DPS scrapper, pChrono, power ren, reaper, etc) what you're suggesting is to nerf every single DPS spec in the game when that has been the case since roughly 2018. That isn't likely.

exactly. at the end of the day it looks like they intend to increase the Difficulty of the new raids by adding Challange modes and more. so it doesnt look like they're going backwards on all the power creep.

hopefully they do knock off with the 40k+ DPS and bring everything down to 35-38k DPS maximum. but yeah this game isnt dropping to 28k DPS Maximum sure u can make the argument "people clear raids with lower DPS then 28k" but the specc needs to compete for a Spot in said raid therefore it needs to be competitively comparible to the other choices. if other proffessions do 10k more DPS then u for a Simple proffession choice they're superior.

its harder to 99 percentile a Untamed for 28k DPS. then it will be to play spectre at a 40 percentile and do 28k DPS thats just factual. reducing failure rates I.E becoming more desirable.