Petition requesting the return of the second dodge for the mirage in all game modes !

[Waffles.5632]

13 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

Partially I can understand you that always being able to safe stomp, heal and cover up skills was to an extend toxic gameplay. But yet power mirage was an extremely fair fight in the past with a much better MC at this time. In fact, it was the first time gw2 offered a real alternative to daredevil. And I’m pretty sure if you would remove jaunt and sword ambush, you wouldn’t have a single point to choose mirage even with 2 dodges.
 

But here we are accepting that thief / dd kit is more or less meta since 10 / 7 years while mesmer got nuked out of existence. MC + mobility was the only real thing power-Mirage brought to the table. Everything else at power-mirage is just the core mesmer kit which is alone not competitive at all. This is very important to consider if you really want to discuss if MC is justified. 

 

This also results in the fact, that power-mirage played without any real condi remove again, after the elusive mind nerf. Allways the Limitation to weapon swap, jaunt and torch. Do people even understand what a pain this is?

 

If you haven’t taken portal and made smart moves with it, it was also better to take something else then power-mirage because without portal power-Mirage offered again not enough for competitive play.

 

So I’m asking again, is it really an MC issue or an Condi-Mirage issue that we have here? Condi-Mirage had the freedom to swap 1 stealth utility skill for something else. Condi-Mirage had the freedom to take axe and other de-targeting skills. Condi-Mirage could take on both weapon sets energy and cleansing sigil. Condi-Mirage had strong hitting passive ambushes. Condi-Mirage has condi pressure on almost every skill. Condi-Mirage can take inspiration trait line without the huge deficits it has for power. Condi-Mirage can play with 3 Signets / can take SoI and has access to double F4 without being punished in this extend like power-Mirage. 
 

To make MC here always the culprit just does not consider many other factors. The evaluation of the viability of MC by just looking at MC alone is a dishonest argumentation. 

lol trust me, I know exactly what a pain it is to pvp with little to no condi cleanse, while also having only 16k hp. I have reached plat with power mirage using assassin's amulet, and only one dodge. I have been through the valley of the shadow of death, and I have seen all the condi's.

 

The problem though are mesmers used to playing one way, and refusing to change/think of another way to play.

People think "meta" means these are the only viable builds, and again, that is just simply not true. Power Mirage is a solid B+ tier spec. Furthermore any buff to power mirage could indirectly buff condi mirage, which no one wants again in pvp, and Anet just can't kill condi mirage and make it mainly power, because that screws over a lot of PvE players.

I am not saying there haven't been any good suggestions, rather, I just don't think people really appreciate the position anet has been in, and if we are all being fair here, Anet has made GOOD pvp changes recently, hitting ALL or MOST of the problem top specs such as necro, and thief.

They just released preview notes that nerf thief and necro yet AGAIN LOL.

If you go back to the recent pvp changes, you will see thief has been hit with a lot of back to back nerfs, meanwhile, I honestly can't even remember the last time mirage was nerfed or buffed. On one hand, no direct buffs can leave people wanting, I get that, but no nerfs also means that indirectly, power mirage has been buffed pvp wise over the past few years, because a lot of other classes have been brought down.

Chrono is also in a significantly worse spot pvp wise than any variation of mirage, and has been for a long time now.

And yes, Mirage Cloak will always be one of the issues, there is no way around that. It is again, completely unique to Mirage and it breaks all the rules of every single other dodge in the entire game, and it has no actual counter play. Being able to dodge twice while stomping is very frustrating gameplay when you're against it. Daredevils have 3 dodges and yet they can't dodge ANY amount of times while rezzing or stomping. This is why Mirage Dodges will always be worth more. Mirage Cloak is not just simply a different dodge, it is the best dodge in the entire game. Period.

Imagine if a warrior could just dodge to avoid damage while continuing hundred blades, or axe 5. They can stab yes, but stab can be boon stripped or stolen. You can't strip or steal Mirage Cloak.

If you really want to consider all factors, Power Mirage is probably the most balanced spec in pvp right now, but it's big brother condi mirage is so toxic that anet can't really do much for us. That is the honest truth if people are actually being fair.

It needs little changes yes, but any little change could potentially prop up condi mirage back to...well... the dark days of pvp LOL

Another factor I want addressed is that a lot of pvpers, just want their class on top, and if it is not on top, they will just call for nerfs to other classes. One needs to simply read the mesmer forums to see this spectacle in action. This is coupled with the vocal minority of complainers that seem to converge on these forums. I mean the general attitude of our own mesmer forums is mesmers suck, class is dead, don't post good mesmer stuff. 

You can't even talk about Virtuoso constructively here without fighting the onslaught of jaded mesmers.

Everyone is so negative and bent over some nerf 5yrs ago or whatever. We still have people talking about how phantasms used to last forever! and clones used to give condi's when destroyed!

Well back in my day we had to crawl up 70 feet of snow for pvp! And we didn't have Mirage Cloak neither!!

It's just sad really.

If I were a new player now, and I came to the mesmer forums to learn more about the class, I would end up NOT playing gw2 at all, thinking that the game was in a very poor state. Which, again, could not be further from the truth.

The mesmer and general pvp community has a toxicity/biased problem that prevents a lot of meaningful talk from actually going through.

Look at your own wording,

"mesmer got nuked out of existence"

That's hyperbole and you know it, and you know you're being dishonest with those words, painting a false picture for those who don't know better.

If you really want to see a class that was nuked out of existence for pvp, look at firebrand not mesmer. Even in Vallun's firebrand build he said to switch to core guardian for pvp LMFAO.

So again, Power Mirage is most certainly viable in pvp, even with one dodge.

Is it meta? No. But it is viable, and it is fun. That, is the truth.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[Jables.4659]

On 1/25/2022 at 4:33 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

 Infinite Horizon is sadly our best GM trait for Mirage

 

On 1/26/2022 at 7:38 AM, Zraurum.8493 said:

Infinite Horizon, this is what makes a mirage a mirage, by removing this feature you can safely change the name of the class. By dodge was originally two! No need to remove or replace anything else, you just need to return it as it was!

 

On 1/26/2022 at 11:05 AM, Moradorin.6217 said:

No one should propose removal of IH in exchange for 2nd dodge back without some suggested replacement.

 

Infinite Horizon is not Mirage's defining feature (that would be Mirage Cloak/Ambush skills).  Yes, IH was very powerful (less so now that Mirage has a single dodge), but it promoted low effort play by allowing the Mesmer to spend the vast majority of any fight actively avoiding a direct engagement while still dealing damage.  Its far less oppressive with one-dodge-mirage, but given that second dodge, there is zero chance that Arenanet would allow IH to stay in its current form without heavy nerfs to other aspects of Mesmer (most likely Core). 

Prior to the nerf, Infinite Horizon Condition Mirage was basically a worse version of a Mesmer play-style that has been loathed since 2012.  Core Phantasm, Core Clone-Death Condition, and Chronophantasma builds all operated by letting AI do the damage while the Mesmer was free to run in circles, stealth, kite, evade, etc.  All of these builds resulted in heavy-handed nerfs or complete overhauls to Mesmer systems.

The simplest replacement would likely be to prevent clones from executing ambush abilities in competitive modes, and instead give the mirage an empowered ambush when using the trait.  Our clones would still dodge attacks, and we would still gain increased damage.  It would remove the disparity between IH on Condition vs Power Mirage, and everyone would be forced to actively fight their enemies.  In PVE, clones would still execute ambush attacks, and the difference would be a lot less jarring than literally losing half of your dodge bar.

[Moradorin.6217]

6 minutes ago, Jables.4659 said:

 

 

 

Infinite Horizon is not Mirage's defining feature (that would be Mirage Cloak/Ambush skills).  Yes, IH was very powerful (less so now that Mirage has a single dodge), but it promoted low effort play by allowing the Mesmer to spend the vast majority of any fight actively avoiding a direct engagement while still dealing damage.  Its far less oppressive with one-dodge-mirage, but given that second dodge, there is zero chance that Arenanet would allow IH to stay in its current form without heavy nerfs to other aspects of Mesmer (most likely Core). 

Prior to the nerf, Infinite Horizon Condition Mirage was basically a worse version of a Mesmer play-style that has been loathed since 2012.  Core Phantasm, Core Clone-Death Condition, and Chronophantasma builds all operated by letting AI do the damage while the Mesmer was free to run in circles, stealth, kite, evade, etc.  All of these builds resulted in heavy-handed nerfs or complete overhauls to Mesmer systems.

The simplest replacement would likely be to prevent clones from executing ambush abilities in competitive modes, and instead give the mirage an empowered ambush when using the trait.  Our clones would still dodge attacks, and we would still gain increased damage.  It would remove the disparity between IH on Condition vs Power Mirage, and everyone would be forced to actively fight their enemies.  In PVE, clones would still execute ambush attacks, and the difference would be a lot less jarring than literally losing half of your dodge bar.

You just either dont understand the point or are purposefully miss representing the point and TBH these days I dont even care which it is, Mirage is dead to me and I dont expect that to change. I dont play mesmer anymore unless I need to do towers for escort or Im doing TL or mathias. those are the ONLY things I have been using my Former main for about the last 1.5 years.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Jables.4659]

12 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

You just either dont understand the point or are purposefully miss representing the point and TBH these days I dont even care which it is, Mirage is dead to me and I dont expect that to change. I dont play mesmer anymore unless I need to do towers for escort or Im doing TL or mathias. those are the ONLY things I have been using my Former main for about the last 1.5 years.

Having ambush damage spread out amongst your clones means that you can summon them at varying distances to the enemy such that they can't avoid the damage with a single mitigation tool.  Clone Ambush attacks create a lot of visual pollution which makes it harder for enemies to track you in a fight, especially if there are multiple Mirages playing together.  Add the previously mentioned issue of passively dealing damage as you avoid offensive combat and it's very easy to understand why you and others are so adamant about Infinite Horizon staying intact.  The old IH cMirage builds required very little mechanical Mesmer skill to play effectively. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

38 minutes ago, Jables.4659 said:

Having ambush damage spread out amongst your clones means that you can summon them at varying distances to the enemy such that they can't avoid the damage with a single mitigation tool.  Clone Ambush attacks create a lot of visual pollution which makes it harder for enemies to track you in a fight, especially if there are multiple Mirages playing together.  Add the previously mentioned issue of passively dealing damage as you avoid offensive combat and it's very easy to understand why you and others are so adamant about Infinite Horizon staying intact.  The old IH cMirage builds required very little mechanical Mesmer skill to play effectively. 

This is no longer the excuse with how easily it is to track, there is food buffs, WvW tower buffs, things that dont go on clones. As well as clones die extremely quick. Visual pollution is not an excuse.

I stand by what I said that IH is the best GM trait Mirage has compared to the other 2, and I still stand by my statement that prior to the countless nerfs on elusive mind, no one bothered with IH even when Elusive Mind had 3 second exhaustion. Dune cloak was NEVER used in the time it was released.

So I'm not saying that IH is not OP it is very very good, but if they reverted the nerfs on elusive mind I would choose that over IH ANYDAY. 

Cleansing 2 condi per 1 dodge on a fixed 8+ second recharge rate when I have sigil of cleansing that does 3 cleanses per 9 seconds of weapon swap, you do the math.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Senqu.8054]

On 2/19/2022 at 2:57 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

lol trust me, I know exactly what a pain it is to pvp with little to no condi cleanse, while also having only 16k hp. I have reached plat with power mirage using assassin's amulet, and only one dodge. I have been through the valley of the shadow of death, and I have seen all the condi's.

 

Sorry for the late response i was quite busy.  Haha nice one, congratulations to that achievement. Should give an Titel if you ask me. 

 

 

On 2/19/2022 at 2:57 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

The problem though are mesmers used to playing one way, and refusing to change/think of another way to play.People think "meta" means these are the only viable builds, and again, that is just simply not true. Power Mirage is a solid B+ tier spec.

 

I have to disagree here. We are adapting to mesmer nerfs since a long time and have to reinvent builds basically every patch that drops. Power, Condi, Hybride, BoonSupport, HealSupport, Interrupt and BoonRip, Range combat playstyle, close combat playstyle. To say that the mesmer community refuses to change / think of another way to play is just false.

 

And saying that mirage is B+ is exaggerated in my opinion. Don’t want to open the box of pandora again but power mirage just brings nothing to the table to be in a B+ tier.

 

On 2/19/2022 at 2:57 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

Furthermore any buff to power mirage could indirectly buff condi mirage, which no one wants again in pvp, and Anet just can't kill condi mirage and make it mainly power, because that screws over a lot of PvE players.

 

Yes, no one wants condi mirage to be buffed but condi mirage is actually the part that receives buffs and optimizations in terms of alacrity, chaos trait line changes etc. etc. which is unusable for power or even nerfs core power mesmer and indirectly power mirage. And that is also part of the critic. They nerf condi mirage with traits that belong to both, power and condi but then buff only condi mirage again which is the one making it problematic in the first place, not only because of MC but because of so many other factors.

 

On 2/19/2022 at 2:57 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

I am not saying there haven't been any good suggestions, rather, I just don't think people really appreciate the position anet has been in, and if we are all being fair here, Anet has made GOOD pvp changes recently, hitting ALL or MOST of the problem top specs such as necro, and thief.

They just released preview notes that nerf thief and necro yet AGAIN LOL.

If you go back to the recent pvp changes, you will see thief has been hit with a lot of back to back nerfs, meanwhile, I honestly can't even remember the last time mirage was nerfed or buffed. On one hand, no direct buffs can leave people wanting, I get that, but no nerfs also means that indirectly, power mirage has been buffed pvp wise over the past few years, because a lot of other classes have been brought down.

 

The state of the game is in the worst state it has ever been since 10 years. Taking out the soul of every class and making it a stale, boring and clunky being is for me in no way GOOD pvp changes. You can actually count the good pvp changes that have been made over the past years and would not forget one because they are so rare.

 

On 2/19/2022 at 2:57 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

Chrono is also in a significantly worse spot pvp wise than any variation of mirage, and has been for a long time now.

And yes, Mirage Cloak will always be one of the issues, there is no way around that. It is again, completely unique to Mirage and it breaks all the rules of every single other dodge in the entire game, and it has no actual counter play. Being able to dodge twice while stomping is very frustrating gameplay when you're against it. Daredevils have 3 dodges and yet they can't dodge ANY amount of times while rezzing or stomping. This is why Mirage Dodges will always be worth more. Mirage Cloak is not just simply a different dodge, it is the best dodge in the entire game. Period.

Imagine if a warrior could just dodge to avoid damage while continuing hundred blades, or axe 5. They can stab yes, but stab can be boon stripped or stolen. You can't strip or steal Mirage Cloak.

 

No one denies that Chrono is in a worse spot. That is no justification for anything.

 

Yes, i give you that, MC created to an extend an issues and i also see arguments of safe stomp, rezz and the general counter gameplay. But i think just to look at it and compare dodges of each class with each other is to isolated viewed and does not consider many other factors. Again, if you would take away Jaunt and Sword Ambush im not even sure, if only the advantages of MC would make Power Mirage viable.

 

MC also added an tactical aspect to the game which got quite forgotten and stale over the past years. There is basically no tactical adaption the the enemys build anymore because the diversity of specializations got tuned down a lot. Example is when a mirage entered a group fight you had to make sure to be downed near your ally’s to get rezzed faster. Downside was power mirage brought nothing else to the group fight and was unpractical as side nooder. 

 

That being said, i would support the decision to nerf MC this way if the other changes to mesmer would be reverted. But as it is right now, there is no way for me to accept such a change.

 

On 2/19/2022 at 2:57 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

If you really want to consider all factors, Power Mirage is probably the most balanced spec in pvp right now, but it's big brother condi mirage is so toxic that anet can't really do much for us. That is the honest truth if people are actually being fair.

It needs little changes yes, but any little change could potentially prop up condi mirage back to...well... the dark days of pvp LOL

 

If you mean with most balanced a build that uses the same weapons and traits but has less to offer then the core version at release day of gw2 then yes, power mirage is the most balanced spec in pvp, otherwise, no lol. And i fail to see how a Skill splitt between PvP and PvE plus the fact that ANet is able to implement balance changes and even design changes exclusively for condi mirage is the justification for such an argument.

 

On 2/19/2022 at 2:57 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

Another factor I want addressed is that a lot of pvpers, just want their class on top, and if it is not on top, they will just call for nerfs to other classes. One needs to simply read the mesmer forums to see this spectacle in action. This is coupled with the vocal minority of complainers that seem to converge on these forums. I mean the general attitude of our own mesmer forums is mesmers suck, class is dead, don't post good mesmer stuff. 

You can't even talk about Virtuoso constructively here without fighting the onslaught of jaded mesmers.

Everyone is so negative and bent over some nerf 5yrs ago or whatever. We still have people talking about how phantasms used to last forever! and clones used to give condi's when destroyed!

Well back in my day we had to crawl up 70 feet of snow for pvp! And we didn't have Mirage Cloak neither!!

It's just sad really.

If I were a new player now, and I came to the mesmer forums to learn more about the class, I would end up NOT playing gw2 at all, thinking that the game was in a very poor state. Which, again, could not be further from the truth.

The mesmer and general pvp community has a toxicity/biased problem that prevents a lot of meaningful talk from actually going through.

Look at your own wording,

"mesmer got nuked out of existence"

That's hyperbole and you know it, and you know you're being dishonest with those words, painting a false picture for those who don't know better.

 

Again, we are in the worst state of this game since the release and this is because the devs „balanced“ this game dead. I can give you 60 cases in which mesmer lost playstyle options which resulted to this state. Think about it. Mesmer had 60 more options available to choose from to define the playstyle of the class. How many builds we lost over the past years. 

 

And this is not, like you do, a question of „back in the days“. We payed for this. Some of us payed several 100 Euros to ANet in the past to support them. This is a question of customer relation. I use the product because of the reason i am able to play several mesmer builds. No mesmer builds = no customer. If they take away what i played = angry customer. Easy as that.

 

How bad of an job have you done, if your 16 years long customers are turning 180 degree and now investing time to speak out negative against your product? You do like its the customers faul that the game is in such a bad state lol. And tbh bad publicity is here fully justified.

 

So yes, its just sad that we payed a lot of money to receive such a treatment. The player count shows how good these decisions have been. Its like i buy a car with all kinds of gimmicks but then the sunroof gets taken away. Then the Navi, then the drink holder and in the end i payed several hundred bucks for something i wouldn’t even have considered to buy.

 

On 2/19/2022 at 2:57 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

If you really want to see a class that was nuked out of existence for pvp, look at firebrand not mesmer. Even in Vallun's firebrand build he said to switch to core guardian for pvp LMFAO.

So again, Power Mirage is most certainly viable in pvp, even with one dodge.

Is it meta? No. But it is viable, and it is fun. That, is the truth.

Is it meta: No

Is it viable: No (yes if you close both eyes)

Is it fun: No

 

 

[Mell.4873]

On 2/20/2022 at 2:57 AM, Waffles.5632 said:

lol trust me, I know exactly what a pain it is to pvp with little to no condi cleanse, while also having only 16k hp. I have reached plat with power mirage using assassin's amulet, and only one dodge. I have been through the valley of the shadow of death, and I have seen all the condi's.

 

The problem though are mesmers used to playing one way, and refusing to change/think of another way to play.

People think "meta" means these are the only viable builds, and again, that is just simply not true. Power Mirage is a solid B+ tier spec. Furthermore any buff to power mirage could indirectly buff condi mirage, which no one wants again in pvp, and Anet just can't kill condi mirage and make it mainly power, because that screws over a lot of PvE players.

I am not saying there haven't been any good suggestions, rather, I just don't think people really appreciate the position anet has been in, and if we are all being fair here, Anet has made GOOD pvp changes recently, hitting ALL or MOST of the problem top specs such as necro, and thief.

They just released preview notes that nerf thief and necro yet AGAIN LOL.

If you go back to the recent pvp changes, you will see thief has been hit with a lot of back to back nerfs, meanwhile, I honestly can't even remember the last time mirage was nerfed or buffed. On one hand, no direct buffs can leave people wanting, I get that, but no nerfs also means that indirectly, power mirage has been buffed pvp wise over the past few years, because a lot of other classes have been brought down.

Chrono is also in a significantly worse spot pvp wise than any variation of mirage, and has been for a long time now.

And yes, Mirage Cloak will always be one of the issues, there is no way around that. It is again, completely unique to Mirage and it breaks all the rules of every single other dodge in the entire game, and it has no actual counter play. Being able to dodge twice while stomping is very frustrating gameplay when you're against it. Daredevils have 3 dodges and yet they can't dodge ANY amount of times while rezzing or stomping. This is why Mirage Dodges will always be worth more. Mirage Cloak is not just simply a different dodge, it is the best dodge in the entire game. Period.

Imagine if a warrior could just dodge to avoid damage while continuing hundred blades, or axe 5. They can stab yes, but stab can be boon stripped or stolen. You can't strip or steal Mirage Cloak.

If you really want to consider all factors, Power Mirage is probably the most balanced spec in pvp right now, but it's big brother condi mirage is so toxic that anet can't really do much for us. That is the honest truth if people are actually being fair.

It needs little changes yes, but any little change could potentially prop up condi mirage back to...well... the dark days of pvp LOL

Another factor I want addressed is that a lot of pvpers, just want their class on top, and if it is not on top, they will just call for nerfs to other classes. One needs to simply read the mesmer forums to see this spectacle in action. This is coupled with the vocal minority of complainers that seem to converge on these forums. I mean the general attitude of our own mesmer forums is mesmers suck, class is dead, don't post good mesmer stuff. 

You can't even talk about Virtuoso constructively here without fighting the onslaught of jaded mesmers.

Everyone is so negative and bent over some nerf 5yrs ago or whatever. We still have people talking about how phantasms used to last forever! and clones used to give condi's when destroyed!

Well back in my day we had to crawl up 70 feet of snow for pvp! And we didn't have Mirage Cloak neither!!

It's just sad really.

If I were a new player now, and I came to the mesmer forums to learn more about the class, I would end up NOT playing gw2 at all, thinking that the game was in a very poor state. Which, again, could not be further from the truth.

The mesmer and general pvp community has a toxicity/biased problem that prevents a lot of meaningful talk from actually going through.

Look at your own wording,

"mesmer got nuked out of existence"

That's hyperbole and you know it, and you know you're being dishonest with those words, painting a false picture for those who don't know better.

If you really want to see a class that was nuked out of existence for pvp, look at firebrand not mesmer. Even in Vallun's firebrand build he said to switch to core guardian for pvp LMFAO.

So again, Power Mirage is most certainly viable in pvp, even with one dodge.

Is it meta? No. But it is viable, and it is fun. That, is the truth.

 

 

 

 

Still the best post in this thread

[Salt Mode.3780]

22 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Still the best post in this thread

Sadly i dont even think u understand what his post is and blindly agreeing to it for the sake of disagreeing with other people lol. 

[Mell.4873]

18 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Sadly i dont even think u understand what his post is and blindly agreeing to it for the sake of disagreeing with other people lol. 

He never disagreed with anyone?

[JazzXman.7018]

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