Fast Hands Must Be Baseline

[Vancho.8750]

49 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I don't, really.

What fast hands does is making burst skills and therefore the usage of the class mechanic more efficient. Vital persistence did the same for death shroud. The slower decay rate was driving the usage of the death shroud and it's related traits. It greatly improved the performance of this class mechanic, but it didn't enable the class mechanic in situations it was completely malfunctioning in.

Illusionary persona on the other hand enabled the usage of shatter skills in situations they were absolutely unusable. If the clones died immediately, shatters did literally nothing without this trait. Making it baseline means that even without clones or even if clones are immediately killed, your shatters provide some value. It is not the biggest value possible, sure, but it is at least not absolutely nothing.

Fast hands allows you access to burst skills more frequently and variably. But it doesn't make burst skills do their job in situations they wouldn't without this trait. In all situations of this game burst skills with fast hands do their thing, they also do their thing without this trait.

It is not just about burst skills, it is about weapon skills and about low amount of usable simple skills.

Here is the kitten test, no discipline, bring me a build that will be competitive with everything in the game in pvp and pve.

Since I'm getting tired of people pulling kitten out of their kitten and calling it gold,  "but this is that and this is this" , talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words and yada yada. You have been CHALLANGED by the ooga forum. 

[cryorion.9532]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

...

Now coming back to the topic of this thread.... looking at these 2 cases, I think that fast hands falls into the same tier as vital persistence.

Fast hands doesn't make changes to warrior which enable mechanics to work properly in situations they are otherwise shut down. It is a strong trait which improves the performance of the warrior class in general. But it is not something that is truly needed to prevent situations in which warrior mechanics stop functioning.

So I have to say that I kinda agree with Obtena to some extend.... even if not agreeing with their reasoning that much. But fast hands might actually be a candidate for nerfs, simply because it is a strong trait which improves so many aspects at the same time that it is basically just really hard for other traits to compete with it's power level.

Can you really compare 50% shroud degrade with 5sec weapon swap cooldown? Does the functionality of each trait not matter? Also don't forget that warrior doesn't have secondary defensive HP layer (which VP made even stronger), so we are getting into territory, where a nerf on one profession is not equal to same nerf on different profession, as there are too many different variables. In this case, nerfing FH would be one of the biggest, if not the biggest change to warrior profession due to how present FH is in builds. FH simply isn't the same as VP.

You can call this a reason for nerf, but given how FH makes the warrior playstyle much more enjoyable, better, fun and making it baseline would also help builds that need help, while also making weaponswap consistent across all builds, I see it as win-win solution.

I simply can't understand why would Anet nerf builds that:

1. are not overpowered nor degenerative/unhealthy relative to the whole game;

2. are the only competetive warrior builds (with very few exceptions) with builds of other professions;

3. make the class more fun/enjoyable to play;

just to artificially make weaker and underperforming builds more appealing (this assumes no compensation for FH nerf).

 

I don't deny that Anet can nerf FH. They can do whatever they want. But it would be senseless because nerfing Fast Hands doesn't improve non-Discipline builds. They will remain as useful as before FH nerf. And we want these builds to be improved, by making FH baseline (or alternatively by directly improving multiple traitlines).

What is smarter:

A) making FH baseline and then adjust things that are still underperforming/overperforming

or

B) nerfing FH, then fixing the mess by buffing some builds so they can retain competetive performance with other professions and then also improving non-Discipline builds anyway because they would be still lacking?

There is only one warrior build that would get away with FH nerf, power Berserker with Decapitate spam. So instead of build variety, we would have one. Nice.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Can you really compare 50% shroud degrade with 5sec weapon swap cooldown? Does the functionality of each trait not matter? Also don't forget that warrior doesn't have secondary defensive HP layer (which VP made even stronger), so we are getting into territory, where a nerf on one profession is not equal to same nerf on different profession, as there are too many different variables. In this case, nerfing FH would be one of the biggest, if not the biggest change to warrior profession due to how present FH is in builds. FH simply isn't the same as VP.

You can call this a reason for nerf, but given how FH makes the warrior playstyle much more enjoyable, better, fun and making it baseline would also help builds that need help, while also making weaponswap consistent across all builds, I see it as win-win solution.

I simply can't understand why would Anet nerf builds that:

1. are not overpowered nor degenerative/unhealthy relative to the whole game;

2. are the only competetive warrior builds (with very few exceptions) with builds of other professions;

3. make the class more fun/enjoyable to play;

just to artificially make weaker and underperforming builds more appealing (this assumes no compensation for FH nerf).

 

I don't deny that Anet can nerf FH. They can do whatever they want. But it would be senseless because nerfing Fast Hands doesn't improve non-Discipline builds. They will remain as useful as before FH nerf. And we want these builds to be improved, by making FH baseline (or alternatively by directly improving multiple traitlines).

What is smarter:

A) making FH baseline and then adjust things that are still underperforming/overperforming

or

B) nerfing FH, then fixing the mess by buffing some builds so they can retain competetive performance with other professions and then also improving non-Discipline builds anyway because they would be still lacking?

There is only one warrior build that would get away with FH nerf, power Berserker with Decapitate spam. So instead of build variety, we would have one. Nice.

^ All of this. Not like we're getting 5s of protection and resolution on weapon swap or burst on a 5s CD.

[Obtena.7952]

23 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

I simply can't understand why would Anet nerf builds that:

1. are not overpowered nor degenerative/unhealthy relative to the whole game;

2. are the only competetive warrior builds (with very few exceptions) with builds of other professions;

3. make the class more fun/enjoyable to play;

just to artificially make weaker and underperforming builds more appealing (this assumes no compensation for FH nerf).

I think very few people understand it ... but understanding something isn't a requirement for Anet to do it ... because that occurs all the time.  It might seem senseless for FH to get a nerf if specific aspects of warrior performance are considered. But other things players thought were senseless happen all the time. How 'senseless' we think something would be probably has no impact on how Anet changes the game. 

Quote

B) nerfing FH, then fixing the mess by buffing some builds so they can retain competetive performance with other professions and then also improving non-Discipline builds anyway because they would be still lacking?

If you don't think Anet would take option B ... think again. Its happened.

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Fast hands allows you access to burst skills more frequently and variably. But it doesn't make burst skills do their job in situations they wouldn't without this trait. In all situations of this game burst skills with fast hands do their thing, they also do their thing without this trait.

That's an important consideration and I think you figured this out properly. Things that appear to be baselined are about removing restrictions on how players can use class mechanics.  FH does not remove restrictions on how the burst mechanic works on warrior.  IP did for Mesmer ... VP did not for Necro.

IMO, a baseline worthy thing for warrior would be to make the burst skill available to use with no adrenaline; basically giving it a level 0. That way, players could use it to trigger other traits like Furious Burst, if they choose to do so. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952