Fast Hands Must Be Baseline

[cryorion.9532]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, the fact that FH can be nerfed because it has too big an impact on the potency of weaponswapping is not predicated on whether it can become baseline. All kinds of things are nerfed that could be made baseline. In fact, ANYTHING can be made baseline if Anet really wants to, yet things are nerfed all the time, so that correlation makes no sense. 

That elephant is getting pretty big, especially if you continue to acknowledge FH has too big impact on how potent weaponswapping is

What makes you think Anet will do same thing with FH they did with VP? Do you base your argument on a VP example? FH and VP are functionally much different. FH imapacts a build much more than VP, think about it.  You can't treat them the same. There is no reason to nerf Fast Hands over making it baseline instead. Why would Anet downgrade warrior instead of improving what is lacking? Anyway, the elephant in the room is that warrior builds that don't use Discipline have significantly worse control (simply put). And why should Anet nerf all builds that perform well (Discipline builds that are competetive with builds of other professions) to force weaker build gameplay that are used way less? That makes no sense. You probably don't realize how important and good FH is, I guess.

[ens.9854]

I appreciate all the visibility this topic is getting. There is some irony that discussion is so fierce over a *minor* trait - whenever these become the defining trait in a line I think it is worth review. I've been following and still fall on the side of "balance around fun and identity" rather than cower in fear of what may be.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, cryorion.9532 said:

What makes you think Anet will do same thing with FH they did with VP? 

I don't ... I'm saying they can and based on how the arguments are being formed by the proponents, I don't see why they wouldn't. 

Again, you outright told us that FH has too big impact on how potent weaponswapping is  Making FH baseline is not the first thing that occurs to me when someone says that. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

5s weapon swap baseline, rework fast hands to give resistance on weapon swap.

[cryorion.9532]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't ... I'm saying they can and based on how the arguments are being formed by the proponents, I don't see why they wouldn't. 

Again, you outright told us that FH has too big impact on how potent weaponswapping is  Making FH baseline is not the first think that occurs to me when someone says that. 

Yes, it has too big impact on how potent weaponswap is. In a good way which makes other builds more frustrating compared to Discpline builds. And we want other builds to be more fun, like Discipline ones, not the other way around. And this "fun" aspect is not just feeling. It also includes already mentioned better weapon flexibility, adaptation and other functional things. Just to make sure, I am aware that if some outliner is too impactful, there is option to nerf it. I don't deny that. But Fast Hands is special case, nerfing it makes 0 sense as the trait alters functionality of warrior and makes warrior unique among gw2 professions.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Yes, it has too big impact on how potent weaponswap is. In a good way which makes other builds more frustrating compared to Discpline builds. And we want other builds to be more fun, like Discipline ones, not the other way around. And this "fun" aspect is not just feeling. It also includes already mentioned better weapon flexibility, adaptation and other functional things. Just to make sure, I am aware that if some outliner is too impactful, there is option to nerf it. I don't deny that. But Fast Hands is special case, nerfing it makes 0 sense as the trait alters functionality of warrior and makes warrior unique among gw2 professions.

Sure ... and that doesn't immediately lead someone to think that's a reason to make it baseline, regardless if you label it a 'special case'. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Vancho.8750]

6 hours ago, Rettan.9603 said:

 

To be fair at this point: Thief has a similar issue with the Preparedness trait in Trickery.

Some skills ended in being to strong with low initiative costs because you could spam them too much. A-Net increased the initiative costs more and more, what ended in thieves need to play Trickery.

(A quick look into some web pages with meta builds also shows that thief is in a similar situation as warrior, because most builds use Trickery and Discipline. Esp. in competitive modes.)

 

This is just a small comparison that shows that the holy grail of design and balance, A-Net, made two times a similar mistake in weapon skill design, ending in a similar problem for two entirely different classes: People are forced to take a trait line to play the weapons as they were designed.

 

In both cases: these two traits (Fast Hands and Preparedness) should be baseline.

Just my 2 cents.

Preparedness should also be baseline, but they should rebalance the skills again. For example some skills are kitten cause they costs too much for the value they have, others too little and can be spammed, Heartseeker for example. Easy balance fix on the spamability is to add some mechanic to interrupt it, Decapitate is a good example, it resets if it hits, so if prep is baseline skills like heartseeker get high cost initiative but return initiative if they hit, so you are rewarded for hitting your skills.  

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Preparedness should also be baseline, but they should rebalance the skills again. For example some skills are kitten cause they costs too much for the value they have, others too little and can be spammed, Heartseeker for example. Easy balance fix on the spamability is to add some mechanic to interrupt it, Decapitate is a good example, it resets if it hits, so if prep is baseline skills like heartseeker get high cost initiative but return initiative if they hit, so you are rewarded for hitting your skills.  

That actually makes a lot of sense for thief... 

[cryorion.9532]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... and that doesn't immediately lead someone to think that's a reason to make it baseline. Nothing you cam say will exclude the option to nerf FH based on its performance as a trait. 

Do you agree that non-Discipline warrior builds need improvements/buffs? If yes, does FH baseline improve all these builds at once without also improving already good performing Discipline builds? Yes. Does FH baseline make weaponswap on whole warrior class consistent and unified? Yes. So why is it bad thing to make FH baseline? You will still have meaningful choices which are dictated by all traits in any build, not Fast Hands. This is not wanting FH baseline for no reason. The reason is to buff non-Discipline builds which need buffs and also to unify weaponswap across all warrior builds for sake of consistency, quality of life and fun.

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Do you agree that non-Discipline warrior builds need improvements/buffs? If yes, does FH baseline improve all these builds at once without also improving already good performing Discipline builds? Yes. Does FH baseline make weaponswap on whole warrior class consistent and unified? Yes. So why is it bad thing to make FH baseline? You will still have meaningful choices which are dictated by all traits in any build, not Fast Hands. This is not wanting FH baseline for no reason. The reason is to buff non-Discipline builds which need buffs and also to unify weaponswap across all warrior builds for sake of consistency, quality of life and fun.

What I agree with or not is irrelevant because this isn't about convincing me about what buffs are needed or not ... I don't change the game. I don't control how classes work. What I can assure you, it doesn't seem likely that it will be how Anet views it either ... because it's not how they viewed VP when they nerfed that too. You keep talking like Anet is just going to come to same conclusions you are because warriors need buffs. You don't think Anet will put a nerf on a class just because players think it needs buffs? I can assure you they have done so MANY times and they will continue to do so as they see fit, and not necessarily how players want. 

Again, if it comes down to Anet making a choice between preserving the integrity of the trait system or improving warrior ... my bet is on preserving the trait system ... because there is lots of history there and there are other ways for Anet to improve warrior without affecting trait system integrity ... if that's even their goal. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

But FH is only on warrior.

Yes and it doesn't change anything about what I said.

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Why speculate that it would be also good on other professions when it is not and never was on other professions? It is irrelevant.

It's relevant for the reasons stated above. It's also not a speculation, it's a fact -also due to the reasons repeated many times here and throughout previous fh threads.

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And you also oversimplify/underestimate the reason why FH should be basline. It is obviously more complex than just "beneficial for non-Discipline builds".

How do I oversimplify it? "beneficial for non-discipline builds" was what YOU said, I just responded to it. And no, that's not really an oversimplification.

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You make it sound as if we wanted the change just because. But the reason was explained many times in more detail.

It was also responded to many times in detail, which you apparently choose to ignore.

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We know that traits have their meaning, but FH has too big impact on how potent weaponswapping is and we want that consistency on all warrior builds.

It's strong not because it's warrior, it's strong because of how the game-wide mechanic works. If you're saying the trait is overperforming then there are solutions to that and surely "just make it baseline" isn't the only or even main solution here (if it can even be called a "solution" for anything in the first place).

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FH isn't some random trait that we suddenly decided that we want as baseline, there is functional reason behind it.

lol, no, that is exactly what it is. It's a random trait that's strong due to how the game-wide mechanic works and "you" randomly deciding it's crucial for warrior.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Instead of postulating on whether FH would be amazing on other classes (which where never balanced around having it like warrior) ask yourself instead how often they make use of Runes of the Warrior. It would give them an 8s weapon swap, certainly much better than the 10s baseline, so how many other professions take advantage of that?

Uh, now that's a wild attempt at a strawman. I'll bite: how often do warriors use that rune? Not that often eh? But I thought faster weapon swap is insanely crucial for the class?! How is this possible then? Is it because runes provide more than just that effect? Is it because the rune effect is a bigger investment for a smaller effect? Is it because disci consists of other traits improving weapon swap on top of overally having strong dps/support/utility traits in it anyways? Or is it because... all of the above? 🤔 

 

But hey, maybe you've just proven that the weapon swap reduction effect can be rebalanced to allow other options to compete with it, something that some people here pretend isn't possible 🤷‍♂️ 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Uh, now that's a wild attempt at a strawman. I'll bite: how often do warriors use that rune? Not that often eh? But I thought faster weapon swap is insanely crucial for the class?! How is this possible then? Is it because runes provide more than just that effect? Is it because the rune effect is a bigger investment for a smaller effect? Is it because disci consists of other traits improving weapon swap on top of overally having strong dps/support/utility traits in it anyways? Or is it because... all of the above? 🤔 

Because we have Fast Hands and the runes don't improve upon that very much? If it were a flat 2s instead of 20% then I'm sure many more warriors would use them. 

Not even a strawman. It is being contended that FH is too powerful and may even be in need of a nerf and it is being contended that it would be powerful for the other professions if they had access to it. But those professions have a tool to mimic it in part. So how often are those runes used? Vitality is very important in both PvP and WvW and the runes do offer Power which most builds still use. Seems pretty useful to me for something like a Soulbeast or Dragonhunter who isn't running meme runes. Would be useful for a Mirage to make better use of a sigil of energy 1s sooner.

17 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But hey, maybe you've just proven that the weapon swap reduction effect can be rebalanced to allow other options to compete with it, something that some people here pretend isn't possible 🤷‍♂️ 

Or perhaps that hasn't happened at all and you merely want it to be true.

[cryorion.9532]

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yes and it doesn't change anything about what I said.

It's relevant for the reasons stated above. It's also not a speculation, it's a fact -also due to the reasons repeated many times here and throughout previous fh threads.

How do I oversimplify it? "beneficial for non-discipline builds" was what YOU said, I just responded to it. And no, that's not really an oversimplification.

It was also responded to many times in detail, which you apparently choose to ignore.

It's strong not because it's warrior, it's strong because of how the game-wide mechanic works. If you're saying the trait is overperforming then there are solutions to that and surely "just make it baseline" isn't the only or even main solution here (if it can even be called a "solution" for anything in the first place).

lol, no, that is exactly what it is. It's a random trait that's strong due to how the game-wide mechanic works and "you" randomly deciding it's crucial for warrior.

 

Funny that you mention ignoring things. The irony.

You oversimplied it because you know that there is more than just "beneficial for non-discipline builds" behind the reason of wanting FH baseline.

 

Other professions are irrelevant in case of halved weaponswap because 1st: this is warrior's issue; and 2nd: other professions were never balanced around it, unlike warrior. But for some reason, you conveniently call it "game-wide mechanics and not warrior mechanics" so it fits your argument. Why do you even bring up that FH baseline would be beneficial to all other professions, when they never had access to it in the first place and never needed it to be competetive?

Did you know that any buff applicable on any profession would be also beneficial for every profession? How is this relevant to the buff itself and profession that the buff is meant for?

 

"lol, no, that is exactly what it is. It's a random trait that's strong due to how the game-wide mechanic works and "you" randomly deciding it's crucial for warrior."

Idk what to reply to this nonsense 🤷‍♂️ Weaponswap is obviously game-wide mechanics (no one denies that), but 5 second weaponswap FH trait alters only warrior's gameplay since the trait is only on warrior, not on other professions. If you call FH a random trait and that we randomly decided that it is important, then I think you don't know its real value and impact on gameplay.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

And to reiterate, Warrior is the only class where weapon swap alters their profession mechanic skill(s).

Other professions have more profession mechanic skills, and/or actual offensive utilities to use thus creating less of a need to weapon swap in the first place.

So can we dispense with the actual strawman of "what about the other professions" bs now?

[gmmg.9210]

18 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing is hard to understand about that. That's why we have the choice to do that, as intended by a trait system that allows players to have numerous, meaningful choices. If FH in Discipline is devaluing OTHER traitlines as meaningful choices to players, then nerfing it is an option, as we can see from Vital Persistence in the case of necro. 

Yeah just nerf FH and make Discipline terrible also, in the same vein as Arms. Or how about just delete Warrior altogether and tell all Wars to reroll to Rev? Nerfing FH won't open up build diversity it'll simply kill a starving class. Anet's roundabout way of dealing with the new Samurai spec aren't addressing this problem either and it's a shame because ask any War main and they prefer FH over even adrenaline, and that's saying something.

 

Weapon swapping is fundamental to War, aside from the new beta gimmick which like I said ignores the issue. When you have a minor trait that has such core functionality to Warrior and to the combat system as a whole, the entire balance outline will be and has been based on the presumption that it is taken for 9+ years. Nerfing it will kill the class outright. And nerfing it with an even hand with all the other specs being nerfed won't solve the problem either because it's so integral to gameplay that the fun factor would be lessened also. (Waiting that long to swap Weapons and synergize isn't fun in any meta who knew). 

 

This is why making FH baseline is a good idea for balance, not because it makes it OP but because it opens build diversity for warrior. It allows War to take other Trait lines, and if War is performing too strong then other traits can be nerfed if needed. Point being the War has a QoL update and a balance change that frees up War in a massive way. It allows Wars to not get pigeonholed into Discipline.

 

Side note we know Tactics is being pushed on us and we really wish Anet would fix Arms and Defense first and address FH before anything thanks.

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, gmmg.9210 said:

Yeah just nerf FH and make Discipline terrible also, in the same vein as Arms.

You can mock this all you like but if you don't think Anet wouldn't nerf FH or Discipline because of the reasons that OTHER PEOPLE are giving in this thread ... you haven't been paying attention to how this game works. You can make all the points you want about how great it would be for balance if FH was baseline ... I'm not arguing with those points. I don't even necessarily disagree with them. .. I just know it really doesn't matter.

Again, if FH is THAT amazing that everyone continually takes Discipline as a choice and devalues the other traitlines as a choice, then it's NOT out of the question that Anet would look at that EXACTLY in the same way they looked at Vital Persistence and nerfed it ... like REALLY hard. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[gmmg.9210]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You can mock this all you like but if you don't think Anet would nerf FH or Discipline because of the reasons that OTHER PEOPLE are giving in this thread ... you haven't been paying attention to how this game works. 

That's not the point, the point is it's easier to make FH baseline and address the follow up balance as opposed to nerfing FH and putting the entire game around a lower denominator than it already has and has had for almost 10 years. 

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, gmmg.9210 said:

That's not the point, the point is it's easier to make FH baseline and address the follow up balance as opposed to nerfing FH and putting the entire game around a lower denominator than it already has and has had for almost 10 years. 

I get your point completely. Of course it's easier just to make whatever buffs you want baseline (or maybe it's not ... I don't know if how those things are implemented). That's not a reason to do it. It's also VERY unlikely to happen, given the reasoning other people have been giving in this thread to do FH baseline AND the history of how Anet regards the trait system. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[gmmg.9210]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I get your point completely. Of course it's easier just to make whatever buffs you want baseline. That's not a reason to do it. 

Just play a warrior build without FH and I'll play one with FH and we'll see who wins:)

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, gmmg.9210 said:

Just play a warrior build without FH and I'll play one with FH and we'll see who wins:)

OK ... except that has no relevance to the discussion. Again, this isn't about accessibility to FH ... because if you want it, you can choose to have it. It's about FH being baseline vs. a trait. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[gmmg.9210]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... except that has no relevance to the discussion. Again, this isn't about accessibility to FH ... because if you want it, you can choose to have it. It's about FH being baseline vs. a trait. 

It does has relevance to the discussion, because it says that any warrior build with FH is better and it means a must have in any game mode. It would be easier to make FH baseline and balance accordingly as opposed to nerfing it and bringing the world down to a already nerfed class that's now even more nerfed that would literally kill the warrior class and all warriors would want to quit.

[Obtena.7952]

21 minutes ago, gmmg.9210 said:

It does has relevance to the discussion, because it says that any warrior build with FH is better and it means a must have in any game mode.

And if you want to choose it you can, so no, accessibility is NOT an argument for making FH baseline. 

Again, if FH is better and means it's a must have, that means Discipline devalues the choose of using other traitlines. That's prime candidate for a nerf, regardless of any players' assessment of the classes current performance. 

Also, you can't say it would be easier to make FH baseline than to nerf it. In fact, I have no doubt that changing the "5" to a "8" in the code for FH is probably a pretty easy thing to do. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[oscuro.9720]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... except that has no relevance to the discussion. Again, this isn't about accessibility to FH ... because if you want it, you can choose to have it. It's about FH being baseline vs. a trait. You aren't going to make an argument for FH to be baseline because of accessibility ... because nothing prevents you from choosing to use Discipline. 

Have you tried playing warrior without fast hands in plat1+ pvp, or in duels vs plat1+ pvp players? 

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Have you tried playing warrior without fast hands in plat1+ pvp, or in duels vs plat1+ pvp players? 

 I'm not arguing that warriors shouldn't have access FH so .... what's your point?