(Not so welcome) change for mesmer

[Lethion.8745]

16 hours ago, Alpha.1308 said:

is this the "feedback" they listen to when they tell us in these update posts that"wE'VEe rEcEiVEd grEat rESponses abOuT virTUoSo"

yea, okay

i'd like to have several conversations with these people 

 

it's a wonder the class has so many issues 

w.

a.

t.

 

do you understand how games work 

 

different classes are supposed to offer various positives to groups, along with their negatives

 

mesmer being bound to NPCs and target-based illusions has held them back in so many aspects, while making them nearly impossible to exchange out in others 

the devs themselves outright made a post with the wording along the lines of:

"the best way to handle X was to throw more chronos at it"   

 

this is a balance issue, not a thematic issue 

 

the entire concept of e-specs was founded on changing how the class played or what they could offer 

 

neither of which has been true for mesmer with any of the 3 e-specs

the majority of what they've got has been just an augment to existing playstyles, nothing realistically changing at all

core mesmer already had high burst, chrono gave it more

core mesmer already had high condi application, mirage gave it more

virtuoso gave mesmer........ i.... honestly can't even answer that, and i'm still waiting for someone to explain that part to me...

 

the mild exception being chrono, which, however, has been almost entirely stripped of what made it unique to begin with, leaving it a shell of its former self or what it could have been, and being used just because there's "not really much better options" to replace it, along with giving what it exclusively offered in the first place to other classes (literally time manipulation from quickness/alacrity, also let's not even begin to talk about portal for scourge/walk and thief preparation)

 

their new traitlines themselves have been lackluster, even core mesmer's existing traitlines, and their utility skills have not kept up with generic power creep, let alone even launching in a state with equivalent strengths to surrounding abilities 

Are you sure you read what I said? I didn't say anything about a 'cloneless spec' being bad or wrong. 

[Lethion.8745]

16 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Why not play mesmer?

So mesmer is just for you exclusively and those who like legal bots? (Clones)

When ANet finally brings something that is right up my alley. You tell me that I can't have it!?

 

You lot make me laugh.

I mean, it's like saying 'I want to play Elementalist but I don't like elements.'  

[Mell.4873]

13 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

"So brave. You clown"

 

Darling. You hurt my feelings.

Wow.

This is very constructive feedback.

I learned a great deal with this.

I'm convinced. Virtuoso's bad.

Can we go back to the topic now, or are there anymore insults you'd like to dish out?

 

Isn't it?

 

Anyways.

I can appreciate what your saying.

I actually gave some feedback on the main thread a couple of days ago.

Nothing too technical though.

 

But I really believe Virtuoso has potential.

Just the main issue is the phantasms.

 

I must say, I haven't tested in pvp.

Sorry, just not my cuppa.

I played pvp maybe ten times, at most.

 

On my feedback, I mentioned a few things about skills.

I also found a minor bug in the blades pips.

 

But as I said.

I don't main any class in specific. 

I find what traits and gear works best to my playstyles and apply it.

 

I have many characters to tend to, so I'm not constantly  just working on one class.

I honestly haven't checked my chronos traits recently.

I could be getting more dps out of it. 

But because it was taking a lot of damage, I decided to go for a more hit and run playstyle.

With mirage, I don't have that problem because I use distortion skills for evasion and attack simultaniously.

 

With virtuoso, I never had to dodge much.

I used dagger/focus, and staff... mostly.

 

I never found damage output to be a problem.

Even in level 80 areas. 

I find it does more damage than my chronos.

 

What other aspects of it would you like me to mention?

Anything in specific?

 

I 100% agree with you and i am even a Mesmer main, i would say don't listen to the other players on this forum for the moment they want a 2 dodge mirage and Mesmer to become some sort of god tier class and only the elite play.
This is pretty much why i hate scourge since its a high DPS support class that gets exclusively picked for CM fractals.

[Puck.3697]

20 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

You seem to forget that they will keep working on the classes even after release,  just like they did with all the others.

 

Mate, if you don't like virtuoso, just don't play it.

But that's no excuse

Ur right. But it took years before they worked on scrapper. 

They don't do that many balance patch's s year to get these changes in fast enough. 

[Alpha.1308]

5 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

Are you sure you read what I said? I didn't say anything about a 'cloneless spec' being bad or wrong. 

are you sure you knew what you said?

you literally just told people just to not play mesmer if they didn't like the clone mechanic

all because it's "the whole deal of the class"

 

i responded by saying it's a balance issue

your argument of it being the "wHoLE deAl" sounds like a thematic topic, you know, "but muh lore"

i can't see any other way that sentence could have been taken, if you'd like to share, feel free 

but otherwise, balance>lore

[Lethion.8745]

10 hours ago, Alpha.1308 said:

are you sure you knew what you said?

you literally just told people just to not play mesmer if they didn't like the clone mechanic

all because it's "the whole deal of the class"

 

i responded by saying it's a balance issue

your argument of it being the "wHoLE deAl" sounds like a thematic topic, you know, "but muh lore"

i can't see any other way that sentence could have been taken, if you'd like to share, feel free 

but otherwise, balance>lore

I am pretty sure there are many other ways of balancing clones without completely removing them. Removal of a mechanic must be the last resort in game design.

[decease.3215]

eh.. what is this new thing mesmer get?  beside the animation.. am still a bit confused... so they remove the clone, and give you nothing new, and you are really happy about it??  good for you... i guess

[mortrialus.3062]

There's something really bizarre about how Virtuoso and only Virtuoso has multiple multiple threads and waves of feedback that amounts to "It's perfect I love it!  Don't change anything!" It comes across as fake feedback trying to deliberately sandbag the elite spec right out the gate.

Lots of people are excited for specter, mechanist, bladesworn, both people that main the profession and those who typically main other professions.  But they want to make sure the professions are workable when they released and preface their excitement with feedback on issues they had with the class.

 

Only the Mesmer forum is getting thread after thread of "Virtuoso nailed it right out the gate no changes needed!" If you actually cared about Virtuoso you'd give feedback in the hopes it'll actually allow the class to function half decent when EoD releases.

Edited December 6, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Lethion.8745]

3 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

There's something really bizarre about how Virtuoso and only Virtuoso has multiple multiple threads and waves of feedback that amounts to "It's perfect I love it!  Don't change anything!" It comes across as fake feedback trying to deliberately sandbag the elite spec right out the gate.

Lots of people are excited for specter, mechanist, bladesworn, both people that main the profession and those who typically main other professions.  But they want to make sure the professions are workable when they released and preface their excitement with feedback on issues they had with the class.

 

Only the Mesmer forum is getting thread after thread of "Virtuoso nailed it right out the gate no changes needed!" If you actually cared about Virtuoso you'd give feedback in the hopes it'll actually allow the class to function half decent when EoD releases.

It's even worse in Reddit. I get downvote on downvote for saying anything negative about Virtuoso. However, whenever I ask someone (either in Reddit or forum) why they think Virtuoso is good, they can't bring any valid argument and all they can say either 'it is easy to play' or 'it looks pretty'.

[Borked.6824]

10 hours ago, decease.3215 said:

eh.. what is this new thing mesmer get?  beside the animation.. am still a bit confused... so they remove the clone, and give you nothing new, and you are really happy about it??  good for you... i guess

Yup!  Clones, and AI reliance can kitten right off.  Not even softly joking.  They're an sloppy/antiquated product of a bygone era.  Why play Mesmer then?  Because for some idiotic reason there's only like 1 caster in the game that are still seriously employs ranged combat.  Unfortunately Mesmer is in that camp...  

Enter Virtuoso!  

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

21 minutes ago, Borked.6824 said:

Yup!  Clones, and AI reliance can kitten right off.  Not even softly joking.  They're an sloppy/antiquated product of a bygone era.  Why play Mesmer then?  Because for some idiotic reason there's only like 1 caster in the game that are still seriously employs ranged combat.  Unfortunately Mesmer is in that camp...  

Enter Virtuoso!  

I don't know if I got what you're saying. 

But you do know that Virt can't play ranged right? First staff and scepter are useless without clones, gs can only be played melee because the damaging skill doesn't bounce without clones, dagger hits like a wet noodle. Second because shatters above 600 range take one step right or left to avoid.

Virt as a ranged spec is a lie. 

[mortrialus.3062]

45 minutes ago, Borked.6824 said:

Yup!  Clones, and AI reliance can kitten right off.  Not even softly joking.  They're an sloppy/antiquated product of a bygone era.  Why play Mesmer then?  Because for some idiotic reason there's only like 1 caster in the game that are still seriously employs ranged combat.  Unfortunately Mesmer is in that camp...  

Enter Virtuoso!  

Literally every word and every sentence in this post is wrong.

For starters, Virtuoso is not good at ranged in PvE as a huge DPS trait as well as Dagger Skills 2+3 only do good damage in melee range. And in PvP it straight up doesn't have the tools to operate and survive as a ranged damage dealer.

Edited December 6, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[mortrialus.3062]

8 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

It's even worse in Reddit. I get downvote on downvote for saying anything negative about Virtuoso. However, whenever I ask someone (either in Reddit or forum) why they think Virtuoso is good, they can't bring any valid argument and all they can say either 'it is easy to play' or 'it looks pretty'.

It's extremely bizarre.  Scroll through the other professions.  None of the other specs have these sort of "Elite Spec is perfect, no changes necessary!" threads or even threads that are just "I'm excited about new elite spec!"  There's literally none.  Virtuoso has 9 across the first 4 pages of the subforum. 

[Alpha.1308]

On 12/5/2021 at 8:40 PM, Lethion.8745 said:

I am pretty sure there are many other ways of balancing clones without completely removing them. Removal of a mechanic must be the last resort in game design.

there are

one of them is called spirit weapons

and guardian has that exact mechanic, right now

in this, the exact same game, called Guild Wars 2

 

the literal answer already exists, has existed this whole time, and is coded in already for them to utilize, and they do physically nothing with it

 

virtuoso should have gotten that kind of mechanic to remove clones/phantasms entirely, absolutely no NPC mechanics, just something that spawns in and does its thing while being an un-targetable "location of effect"

 

and they didn't get that for literally whatever reason 

Mirage should have gotten something similar, first, tbh, and even they didn't get anything near that, absolutely nothing

just more projectiles on that one useless pve utility skill, then the rest of their worthless utility skills which do basically nothing for any current game mode in existence 

 

they literally could have gotten real mirages that manipulate the field like necro shade or wells do, which..... again again.... even chrono got wells.... and their wells have been severely underwhelming since launch (minus grav)

 

and yet, even still, instead, mirage got the garbage mirror pick-up mechanic and nothing more, just core shatters and grandmaster traits that could make or break the specs entire efficacy in various game modes that constantly got neutered because they can't balance NPCs at all, because they're either simply too much or not enough, and that goes for any game 

 

i've had like 0 faith in the balance team since mirage, i mean, chrono's nerf after nerf after nerf kinda set my sights low, but i had some form of expectation for mirage, but that got shot right in the face, and to continue into that, YEARS later they add this pathetic band-aid of a flawed design overstuffed ambush to staff 1 to make things even more ridiculous, and now virtuoso isn't even a surprising disappointment, because i literally wasn't expecting at all now, but it's somehow still worse, because they actually thought they were fixing something with this trash 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[Mell.4873]

16 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

There's something really bizarre about how Virtuoso and only Virtuoso has multiple multiple threads and waves of feedback that amounts to "It's perfect I love it!  Don't change anything!" It comes across as fake feedback trying to deliberately sandbag the elite spec right out the gate.

Lots of people are excited for specter, mechanist, bladesworn, both people that main the profession and those who typically main other professions.  But they want to make sure the professions are workable when they released and preface their excitement with feedback on issues they had with the class.

 

Only the Mesmer forum is getting thread after thread of "Virtuoso nailed it right out the gate no changes needed!" If you actually cared about Virtuoso you'd give feedback in the hopes it'll actually allow the class to function half decent when EoD releases.

I have been overly positive to counter the utter salt that people had about losing clones. Virtuoso in my opinion is very good at the moment and not much needs changing. The only thing i would like to see is aoe might, swiftness and regen to make it more bard like.

The developers agree since they barely changed anything about the spec, maybe at next beta we will see something.

[mortrialus.3062]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I have been overly positive to counter the utter salt that people had about losing clones. Virtuoso in my opinion is very good at the moment and not much needs changing. The only thing i would like to see is aoe might, swiftness and regen to make it more bard like.

The developers agree since they barely changed anything about the spec, maybe at next beta we will see something.

"Not much needs changing"

Alright buddy lets see you hit top 100 or higher or win the Monthly Tournament with it if you think it's so perfect.

There also is no "next beta".  This was the final one.

Edited December 7, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Lethion.8745]

4 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I have been overly positive to counter the utter salt that people had about losing clones. Virtuoso in my opinion is very good at the moment and not much needs changing. The only thing i would like to see is aoe might, swiftness and regen to make it more bard like.

The developers agree since they barely changed anything about the spec, maybe at next beta we will see something.

It's not supposed to be a bard-like support. It's supposed to be a selfish DPS as CmC said himself in Teapot's stream and this shows that you have little understanding of what the spec is about in the first place.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

"Not much needs changing"

Alright buddy lets see you hit top 100 or higher or win the Monthly Tournament with it if you think it's so perfect.

There also is no "next beta".  This was the final one.

Do all new elite specializations need to get top 100 in a tournament.

Let it come out and then we shall see, there are no broken mechanics and it does do something different even if people dont like the change. That's all the elite specialization needs to do.

 

Even the condition and power line problem is fine since core Mesmer has a lot of condition traits so it makes sense that every elite specialization should have a condition line. My plan is to roll Grieving with full bleed duration.

[Mell.4873]

48 minutes ago, Lethion.8745 said:

It's not supposed to be a bard-like support. It's supposed to be a selfish DPS as CmC said himself in Teapot's stream and this shows that you have little understanding of what the spec is about in the first place.

Again that is the only change I want, Mesmer has a lot of self boons already. The ability to share them somehow would be nice, Bountiful Disillusionment is an self buff that would make an awesome 5 man buff.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Do all new elite specializations need to get top 100 in a tournament.

Let it come out and then we shall see, there are no broken mechanics and it does do something different even if people dont like the change. That's all the elite specialization needs to do.

 

Even the condition and power line problem is fine since core Mesmer has a lot of condition traits so it makes sense that every elite specialization should have a condition line. My plan is to roll Grieving with full bleed duration.

You know that giving an equal fair chance to all specs is what balance is all about? So according to your view ANerf can simply fire the balance team because as long as the fxs are cool there is no problem. 

"There are no broken mechanics" - there are no mechanics. 

Are you sure you main mesmer, heck, are you sure you play it a all? The only reason condis work on mesmer is because of clones - no clones = no condi pressure. Sure you can burst 20 confusion stacks and several bleeds from duelist but when these end where will you get the condi sustain? Hint: you won't because there is none. 

[Urphen.2857]

8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I have been overly positive to counter the utter salt that people had about losing clones. Virtuoso in my opinion is very good at the moment and not much needs changing. The only thing i would like to see is aoe might, swiftness and regen to make it more bard like.

The developers agree since they barely changed anything about the spec, maybe at next beta we will see something.

Thanks for that.

Now it's clear you aren't a Mesmer Main nor have you read the feedback or understand what all are talking about.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You know that giving an equal fair chance to all specs is what balance is all about? So according to your view ANerf can simply fire the balance team because as long as the fxs are cool there is no problem. 

"There are no broken mechanics" - there are no mechanics. 

Are you sure you main mesmer, heck, are you sure you play it a all? The only reason condis work on mesmer is because of clones - no clones = no condi pressure. Sure you can burst 20 confusion stacks and several bleeds from duelist but when these end where will you get the condi sustain? Hint: you won't because there is none. 

Dude Virtuoso is fine when I was playing I was easily able to pull similar dps numbers to my chrono and mirage. 10k in open world across the board and Virtuoso has more dps on groups and large bosses making it my ideal PVE spec for most content.

 

Cant wait to play it on release with grieving armor set.

[Mell.4873]

53 minutes ago, Urphen.2857 said:

Thanks for that.

Now it's clear you aren't a Mesmer Main nor have you read the feedback or understand what all are talking about.

3 years and 6 months old

Created May 30, 2018 12:04

Next present in 5 months and 2 weeks

507 hours and 9 minutes playtime

23 minutes and 38 seconds playtime per day

I have been away from the game for about 2 years roughly so most of that the playtime is within a year. 
My most played class is ranger but only use that for pvp now and sometimes for PVE

Edited December 7, 2021 by Mell.4873

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Dude Virtuoso is fine when I was playing I was easily able to pull similar dps numbers to my chrono and mirage. 10k in open world across the board and Virtuoso has more dps on groups and large bosses making it my ideal PVE spec for most content.

 

Cant wait to play it on release with grieving armor set.

First of all - open world - lol. 

I deal more than 16k and within a small aoe radius with core mesmer. 

Why the kitten do I want some 5 blade no aoe garbage that deals less 6k, demands more resources and is slower than that?

Edited December 7, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Mell.4873]

26 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

First of all - open world - lol. 

I deal more than 16k and within a small aoe radius with core mesmer. 

Why the kitten do I want some 5 blade no aoe garbage that deals less 6k, demands more resources and is slower than that?

16k maybe in the best conditions. I barely see people break 10k in most of my small scale bounties since they die alot. 

In general most of my fight I'm hitting 10k even less on my chrono sometimes since I run a tank spec so I never die.

 

I will find a use for virtouso, when I was play testing it on champion bounties I was normally highest dps at around 8k and that was with the bad gear they give you. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Mell.4873