What elementalist was in GW, what it is in other games and..what it is not in GW2

[Arheundel.6451]

This is why the first class I could think of when GW2 launched was elementalist.....

This is what I used to play in GW1, played an air, a fire, an earth and water variant.....In GW1, I was exactly an elemental spellcaster and that's exactly what I signed for when I bought GW2.

 

Now this is what I used to play during the initial beta and first couple of months in 2012

A build nerfed to the ground based on principles that nobody follows anymore...first and foremost the devs themselves don't respect these same principles...but the nerfs remain to this day: arcane skills.....phoenix....air minor....the damage was butchered, never compensated for.

 

For god's sake...wake the hell up all of you! This is what elementalist supposed to be:

 

Give me back my staff damage! Give me back my scepter damage....somebody throwing lightnings at you, supposed to open a new one on you. Nobody can tell me that full melee is what an elementalist is about, but for the sake of argument..yes we can have melee spellcasters...and are called battlemages and from the name you can deduce that to start with, they wear medium armor at the very least, they have some starting physical toughness and use spells to reach the peak of their abilities.

 

Elementalits is not a battlemage, it was designed to be a glass ranged spellcaster  but then  they decided to shove everything aside to give space to their supposed meta and molded this class around the idea of d/d combat...without any substantial statistical addition:

 

1)The HP should have been raised to 15k at least

2)Should have been given better sustain tools like blocks or evades that don't depend on healing power

3)Should have been able to actually deal competitive direct dmg

 

None of this has been given and worst of all, the advertised ranged combat has been slowly replaced by this melee mania over the years. Imagine we take warrior and start nerfing to the ground all its melee oriented weapons and then we force the warrior playerbase to play on rifle and longbow from on, it all makes zero sense to me.....still some people will whiteknight for anet...

Edited December 8, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Mini Crinny.6190]

Yep, i enjoyed the range style of ele, it's why I played it, although I enjoyed Tempest and Weaver as well, Staff was very good, nerfed in all game modes because of PvE which I found pretty dumb, nevertheless.. I had hoped Longbow would of been the weapon but ah well, Hammer doesn't interest me at all so the expansion is not worth the £20 they want

[Lynx.9058]

For now I'm ok playing melee weaver, but I had high hopes for catalyst and they didn't last.

 

It would have been nice to get a rifle instead of hammer and a proper ranged spec.

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

I didn't particularly mind Ele getting a melee weapon in PoF, since dagger is more of a mixed mid-close-range weapon. But giving ele another mixed mid-close-range weapon for EoD? Ele really should've gotten a new ranged weapon. Personally I would've preferred double pistol, but rifle would've been nice too. Longbow always had the potential to clash with Frostbow, which is why I didn't like the idea of it.

 

Hammer is really the worst of both worlds. It's melee and it's a weapon ele already has access to.

[Kyniel.4706]

The biggest disappointment for me is that in GW1 you actually specialised in an element. In GW2 it seems to me that you have to use all elements, which wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if it weren't for the fact that Fire is basically mandatory most of the time. 

I think it's especially disappointing as the ele character creation choices let you choose an element, which always makes me feel like I want to create element specialised builds, but it pretty much ends up being Fire, with occasional forays into other attunements for CC, defence.

I would love to make a build that rains ice down on my enemies. Perhaps not with massive damage, but decent damage supplemented by chill etc. Or perhaps an earth wielding mage who devastates their enemies with sandstorms, battering them with rocks and protecting myself with rock barriers.

Now - I know that these ideas totally exist and I can play them - for like 20% of my rotation, then you have to go back into fire for the same old stuff.

Wouldn't it be cool for the Piercing Shards extra bonus while in Water attunement to actually be useful?

Maybe I'm just not a good ele player (and not  claiming to be) but for all the other professions I find that I can almost always achieve whatever class fantasy I want and still have a reasonably viable build. For Elementalist I always feel like I'm being forced to play in a way that I don't want to.

[Liewec.2896]

ele should be the long range nuker, the quintessential "mage" class.

but this is now the THIRD cqc elite spec in a row.

 

i really hope the next expansion (if there is one) will take ele back in the correct direction with range.

[AliamRationem.5172]

26 minutes ago, Liewec.2896 said:

ele should be the long range nuker, the quintessential "mage" class.

but this is now the THIRD cqc elite spec in a row.

 

i really hope the next expansion (if there is one) will take ele back in the correct direction with range.

I hope they fix staff and conjured weapons to offer more flexibility and better ranged options.  Having said that, I love both of the currently available melee weapons on all types of elementalist so I won't be surprised if I find something to love about hammer as well.

[Puck.3697]

17 hours ago, Liewec.2896 said:

ele should be the long range nuker, the quintessential "mage" class.

but this is now the THIRD cqc elite spec in a row.

 

i really hope the next expansion (if there is one) will take ele back in the correct direction with range.

Prolly will. But likely will be a dead weapon. Anet have been awful with ranged combat in PvE.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 12/9/2021 at 1:47 AM, BunjiKugashira.9754 said:

I didn't particularly mind Ele getting a melee weapon in PoF, since dagger is more of a mixed mid-close-range weapon. But giving ele another mixed mid-close-range weapon for EoD? Ele really should've gotten a new ranged weapon. Personally I would've preferred double pistol, but rifle would've been nice too. Longbow always had the potential to clash with Frostbow, which is why I didn't like the idea of it.

 

Hammer is really the worst of both worlds. It's melee and it's a weapon ele already has access to.

Yeah, sword for weaver was not just accepted, it was asked for beforehand.

 

The problem with hammer is that Catalyst has become 3/3 for ele specialisations being melee-oriented. Hammer initially looked like it might allow swapping between ranges by changing elements the way most professions can switch weapons, but as we've learned more, the range turned out to be similar to dagger and it's built around a rotation that relies on remaining in melee.

 

On 12/13/2021 at 3:41 AM, Kyniel.4706 said:

Maybe I'm just not a good ele player (and not  claiming to be) but for all the other professions I find that I can almost always achieve whatever class fantasy I want and still have a reasonably viable build. For Elementalist I always feel like I'm being forced to play in a way that I don't want to.

Heck, a lot of elementalist fantasies, you're better off playing another profession. For instance, when I feel like playing something like a GW1 air ele, I play mesmer. The lightning may be purple, but it still feels more like it than Chain Tickling, Arc Tickling, or Lightning Whip.

[Einlanzer.1627]

On 12/12/2021 at 11:41 AM, Kyniel.4706 said:

The biggest disappointment for me is that in GW1 you actually specialised in an element. In GW2 it seems to me that you have to use all elements, which wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if it weren't for the fact that Fire is basically mandatory most of the time. 

I think it's especially disappointing as the ele character creation choices let you choose an element, which always makes me feel like I want to create element specialised builds, but it pretty much ends up being Fire, with occasional forays into other attunements for CC, defence.

I would love to make a build that rains ice down on my enemies. Perhaps not with massive damage, but decent damage supplemented by chill etc. Or perhaps an earth wielding mage who devastates their enemies with sandstorms, battering them with rocks and protecting myself with rock barriers.

Now - I know that these ideas totally exist and I can play them - for like 20% of my rotation, then you have to go back into fire for the same old stuff.

Wouldn't it be cool for the Piercing Shards extra bonus while in Water attunement to actually be useful?

Maybe I'm just not a good ele player (and not  claiming to be) but for all the other professions I find that I can almost always achieve whatever class fantasy I want and still have a reasonably viable build. For Elementalist I always feel like I'm being forced to play in a way that I don't want to.

 

This is a result of over-specializing the attunements based on expected roles, which is not how it works for any other class. Imagine using your weapon swap on another class to have a weapon equipped that is a total mismatch for your build, except you have 15 crappy skills instead of 5 good ones to flit between, AND you're forced to proactively manage this due to being the weakest class in the game defensively with the slowest reaction time due to cooldowns and skill bloat. That's basically the elementalist. 

It's perfectly fine, and even optimal, for each attunement to offer different forms of utility with some variance in DPS output, but basic, sustained DPS and self-damage mitigation capabilities really need to be distributed across all attunements and not concentrated around specific attunements the way they are - this really wrecks elementalist gameplay.

Water should not tank your DPS to nothing, Earth should offer some power DPS in conjunction with condi, and Air should probably get a little of Water's healing capability shared with it. Then you could still specialize in a given attunement, but, a.) you could be viable specializing in something besides Fire, and b.) you would still have a reason to attunement swap sometimes to access different forms of utility without killing your efficacy.

I think this is a huge screw up in the design of the elementalist and it will never feel right until it's addressed. It was also a screw up in the design of the revenant, which is why they were later given weapon swapping to compensate AND every elite spec provides synergy with one of the core specs so that you always have an effective pairing to work with. 

The fact that these design elements never get identified or discussed by any of the game designers is a problem. Yes, I will die on this hill.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Einlanzer.1627

[Mattmatt.4962]

2 hours ago, Einlanzer.1627 said:

 

This is a result of over-specializing the attunements based on expected roles, which is not how it works for any other class. Imagine using your weapon swap on another class to have a weapon equipped that is a total mismatch for your build, except you have 15 crappy skills instead of 5 good ones to flit between, AND you're forced to proactively manage this due to being the weakest class in the game defensively with the slowest reaction time due to cooldowns and skill bloat. That's basically the elementalist. 

It's perfectly fine, and even optimal, for each attunement to offer different forms of utility with some variance in DPS output, but basic, sustained DPS and self-damage mitigation capabilities really need to be distributed across all attunements and not concentrated around specific attunements the way they are - this really wrecks elementalist gameplay.

Water should not tank your DPS to nothing, Earth should offer some power DPS in conjunction with condi, and Air should probably get a little of Water's healing capability shared with it. Then you could still specialize in a given attunement, but, a.) you could be viable specializing in something besides Fire, and b.) you would still have a reason to attunement swap sometimes to access different forms of utility without killing your efficacy.

I think this is a huge screw up in the design of the elementalist and it will never feel right until it's addressed. It was also a screw up in the design of the revenant, which is why they were later given weapon swapping to compensate AND every elite spec provides synergy with one of the core specs so that you always have an effective pairing to work with. 

The fact that these design elements never get identified or discussed by any of the game designers is a problem. Yes, I will die on this hill.

Amen,

 

And what's funny is that on the other side, trait line are the exact opposite (unspecialized), when they actually should be (like everyother class).

I want to play condi ? i have trait related to that in Fire, Earth and Arcane (plus the elite spec, let's be real no one is gonna play core condi). (and i could add air, as it has the glyph trait, and water as it has vuln trait)
I want to be support ? Every single trait line have something related to that (not only aura btw).

DPS ? same, options in every trait line (even tho earth water and arcane are pretty minor).

 

The result is that within some tier of a specific trait line, you end up with no trait related to the reason you picked that trait line to begin with (quick example: adept Fire, nothing related to power (conjure trait (LOL), auto condi cleanse, hybrid Power/condi trait))

 

For instance, it would make much more sense if all aura trait were in a single Line, let's say water.
remove cleansing wave and put smothering aura in its place. then some cool question arise: do i want to share the cleansing through aura share, or do i want improved cleanse from cleanse on regen ? (obviously tempest is picked for that).

Force meaningfull choice by placing all boon on aura in adept water. Do i want Prot on aura ? or fury/swift ? or something else ?

With this quick example from the top of my head (not asking for THAT to happen, it's might not be balanced, i only care about the idea), i created a line with a clear and specific purpose. Im' not gonna pick that whole line for ONE single trait in a random tier and end up with some minor/major i dont even care about.

 

In the current state, we have to choose the ONE best trait we want from every line, and then we pick what doesnt suck the least for the build we're trying to make.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Mattmatt.4962

[draxynnic.3719]

17 hours ago, Einlanzer.1627 said:

 

This is a result of over-specializing the attunements based on expected roles, which is not how it works for any other class. Imagine using your weapon swap on another class to have a weapon equipped that is a total mismatch for your build, except you have 15 crappy skills instead of 5 good ones to flit between, AND you're forced to proactively manage this due to being the weakest class in the game defensively with the slowest reaction time due to cooldowns and skill bloat. That's basically the elementalist. 

It's perfectly fine, and even optimal, for each attunement to offer different forms of utility with some variance in DPS output, but basic, sustained DPS and self-damage mitigation capabilities really need to be distributed across all attunements and not concentrated around specific attunements the way they are - this really wrecks elementalist gameplay.

Water should not tank your DPS to nothing, Earth should offer some power DPS in conjunction with condi, and Air should probably get a little of Water's healing capability shared with it. Then you could still specialize in a given attunement, but, a.) you could be viable specializing in something besides Fire, and b.) you would still have a reason to attunement swap sometimes to access different forms of utility without killing your efficacy.

I think this is a huge screw up in the design of the elementalist and it will never feel right until it's addressed. It was also a screw up in the design of the revenant, which is why they were later given weapon swapping to compensate AND every elite spec provides synergy with one of the core specs so that you always have an effective pairing to work with. 

The fact that these design elements never get identified or discussed by any of the game designers is a problem. Yes, I will die on this hill.

You definitely make a valid point. Staff is probably the worst offender here, since there air is also pretty much a utility attunement, but you could have, say, water offering decent damage coefficients alongside the healing, on the basis that the player has already chosen whether to focus on DPS or support through gear and traits. Water would still be the attunement you'd likely switch to for healing, but if you're not getting a lot of healing due to not having healing power, it only seems fair that you should get at least some damage out of the DPS stats you took instead.

[Einlanzer.1627]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You definitely make a valid point. Staff is probably the worst offender here, since there air is also pretty much a utility attunement, but you could have, say, water offering decent damage coefficients alongside the healing, on the basis that the player has already chosen whether to focus on DPS or support through gear and traits. Water would still be the attunement you'd likely switch to for healing, but if you're not getting a lot of healing due to not having healing power, it only seems fair that you should get at least some damage out of the DPS stats you took instead.

 

Staff is definitely the worst offender (though the other weapons aren't great), which is why people express so much frustration about it. It simply doesn't work well. And, yes, there is no reason to make water do terrible DPS just because it heals - the healing will be minimal unless you are spec'd for healing, in which case the damage will be bad. It's just an outdated design element of the staff that serves no purpose other than to make Water overly situational and make elementalists less fun to play.

 

In short, at the very least, the damage coefficients on basically every non-fire skill on staff need to be substantially improved so that you don't have to aggressively attunement dance back and forth to fire constantly just to maintain a moderate baseline of DPS.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Einlanzer.1627

[draxynnic.3719]

One possibility I've considered myself is making Chain Lightning strike the target twice if there's nothing to bounce to. It's decent when it has two targets to bounce between and hits each twice, but goes back to being inferior to fireball once one of them dies. Increasing the effect when there's only one target to hit would help there.

 

This is probably only a starting point, but it is a starting point.