Condi necro needs a nerf. Or condi needs to be looked at in PvP.

[Genesis.5169]

1 minute ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

You're forgetting there ARE runes with toughness that you can combine with amulets.

 

And even if you remove toughness from the equation thats still 1 stat for condi damage vs 3 for power damage

You need less stat investment for power you can just spec valkyrie + int runes and still hit 10k, Power amulets have way better stat spread.

[Curennos.9307]

48 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Condi is just fundamentally broken for pvp.

 

It only requires 1 stat to boost its damage which allows them to add toughness or vitality to their build with zero tradeoff compared to power builds that need 3 stats to do comparable damage

Not only that but condis require you to use utilities with long cooldowns to counter for most classes, condi application is very passive and spamable for how much potential damage it can do, its not like power builds where you can just dodge/mitigate the heavy hitting attacks, you cant stop someone from applying condis to you for the most part, dodges are much less effective against condi builds because unlike power chip damage, small frequent condi applications have the potential to snowball and exponentially increase in damage. you have to time your limited cleanses for when the stacks become dangerous, with condi builds being able to stack more defensive stats they can typically outlast other builds until they run out of cleanses.

Necro is already inherently tanky by design, AND they have wide access to condi application (unlockable even), condi transfer, boon corruption, and a good amount of cleanses. They essentially have the ultimate package of kitten.

I find it hilarious that necro mains have the audacity to claim necro is balanced, yeah ok, that explains why its rare for there NOT to be at least 3-4 necros in every match, im sure its just a coincidence that necro is pretty much the only class that has multiple top tier meta builds in pvp with its core class and both elite specs at the same time.

Condi builds are only GIVEN one stat to boost their damage - expertise amulets are gone and trying to fit precision in there is...something I've never actually seen anyone pay attention to. They're also forced to take at least some power stats that's effectively a pretty significant waste - it contributes some damage but would certainly be much better used elsewhere. So...No, they don't actually get to add vitality or toughness with no tradeoffs. Unless there was a 900 toughness 900 vitality 1200 condi damage amulet added when nobody was looking. 

 

Or 900 healing power 900 vitality 1200 condi damage.

 

Or literally any amulet that doesn't require a chunk of (often mostly wasted) power-focused stats (sans precision interaction with some traits you may or may not have, I guess). 

 

Unless you're looking for the WvW forum, which would be fair, but it's still odd. Condi builds still have to land skills. Dodge a necro scepter 3 and things are going pretty good. Scepter 2 looks scary, with 5700 tooltip bleed damage with carrion + necromancer runes (I'm lazy in gw2skills) until you notice that's over twenty one seconds. Highly recommend looking at some tooltips to see exactly how much damage skills are doing and how long they take to do that damage, because you're just factually incorrect about a chunk of things. 

 

Could some condi skills use more of a tell? Absolutely. And they definitely have more 'chip' damage that's harder to actually see. Not denying that. But condis aren't some unavoidable, inevitable boogyman. The damage is pretty comparable, especially considering you have **ages** to deal with it compared to power damage.

 

Edit: Can I get a 900 vit, 900 hp, 1200 condi damage amulet? That would be nice.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Curennos.9307

[Kayberz.5346]

And the condi mains come to pretend their choosen builds aren't low skill, low risk, high reward.

 

Quite predictable.

 

When they can make a brainless bot play a power build at anywhere near the success rate as the MULTIPLE  condi builds that are botted maybe I'll start taking condi mains seriously 

 

And minion master doesn't count,  thats a whole other discussion 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Kayberz.5346

[Genesis.5169]

11 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

And the condi mains come to pretend their choosen builds aren't low skill, low risk, high reward.

 

Quite predictable.

 

When they can make a brainless bot play a power build at anywhere near the success rate as the MULTIPLE  condi builds that are botted maybe I'll start taking condi mains seriously 

 

And minion master doesn't count,  thats a whole other discussion 

Dragon hunter can kill you with just LB2 (9k) and Hammer 2 (6k)alone.
Ranger can 1 shot you with rapid fire alone.
Thief, can do upto 13k with vault in valkyrie runes 9k in maruder thats one button.
Rev sword 3 + shiro utility is easily 20k in 1 button and is unblockable.
Warrior Killshot + SoM is 13k 1 button.

I can go on power can legit kill you in one button i know of no condition spec that can kill you in 1 button.

And seriously if you want me to go down the entire class traitlines and show you how many ways a power build can kill you in 1-3 buttons i can. And if you can point to me a condition class that can kill you in 3  buttons lemme know so i can play it.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Kayberz.5346]

7 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Dragon hunter can kill you with just LB2 and Hammer 2 alone.
Ranger can 1 shot you with rapid fire alone.
Thief, can do upto 13k with vault in valkyrie runes 9k in maruder thats one button.
Rev sword 3 + shiro utility is easily 20k in 1 button and is unblockable.
Killshot + SoM is 13k 1 button.

I can go on power can legit kill you in one button i know of no condition spec that can kill you in 1 button.

Ok, and can any of those power builds do that while ALSO being able to facetank that same level of damage being thrown back at them?

 

And all those burst combos actually require TIMING  and good positioning or they will get absolutely deleted in a few seconds. The condi builds dont and wont.

 

A burn guardian combo might as well be a 1 shot if your condi cleanse is on cooldown

 

Also since when can rev sword 3 with impossible odds do 20k "easy"? In wvw maybe, in spvp? More like 10 if you're lucky and the target is glass, and the entire attack is NOT unblockable

 

When you come out with statements like that you really show just how unqualified you are to comment on pvp balance

Edited December 14, 2021 by Kayberz.5346

[Genesis.5169]

5 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Ok, and can any of those power builds do that while ALSO being able to facetank that same level of damage being thrown back at them?

 

And all those burst combos actually require TIMING  and good positioning or they will get absolutely deleted in a few seconds. The condi builds dont and wont.

 

A burn guardian combo might as well be a 1 shot if your condi cleanse is on cooldown

Dragon hunter in valkyrie runes can take alot of punishment.
No thief can take alot of punishment they are not supposed to get hit your supposed to abuse blind.

Valkyrie ranger SB exists
Every Warrior can kill you in 1 CC.
God kitten revs are god kitten revs with staff stuff 2 heals.
Holo's grenades bruh...
Reapers!?

And i can go on if you'd like.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Curennos.9307]

Maybe if anet added something on your health bar to show how much condi damage you were taking and how much you were going to take based on what you had on you, that would help. Power has a lot of feel-good chunky numbers and people like chunky numbers, plus it's more noticeable when 5k of the red orb just goes poof in a second. Would certainly remove a lot of the 'mystery'.

 

@Genesis.5169 Don't bother it'll never go anywhere, they just don't want to read tooltips, cleanse, or apply an iota of thought and just want to go back and forth with repeated "no YOU don't know what you're talking about"

Edited December 14, 2021 by Curennos.9307

[Kayberz.5346]

Yes, go on and on 

 

I would love to hear what other hyperbolic and just factually wrong statements you make about power builds you clearly dont have much knowledge of

Edited December 14, 2021 by Kayberz.5346

[Genesis.5169]

12 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Yes, go on and on 

 

I would love to hear what other hyperbolic and just factually wrong statements youbmake about power builds you clearly dont have much knowledge of

Core Power gaurdian gs3 hits for 5k gs2 is 10k full spin not including any other things you do.
Scrapper hammer3 + 2 alone is enough to kill people if you do not move scrappers are very tanky. (not including daze combo field with weakness in aristocracy runes leading you to 25might or close too.
The only class that has to build glassy to do damage is mesmer and ele you simply don't know what your talking about and i have ran through every class for you some and some of them have 2 or 3 high damaging and tanky power builds that can 2 shot you and all of them have atleast one  that can 1 shot you.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Kayberz.5346]

Wierd how none of those builds can be played effectively by a bot

 

Its almost like they actually require skill and proper timing to both deal damage and avoid it, unlike many condi builds

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I'm gonna press the hot take button and say Rabid[x] is easier to play than valk[y] with int runes, because they both have tankiness but one of them has a consistent damage output but ALSO  that doesn't necessarily make Rabid[x], or condi builds by extension, -less- skillful, objectively. I think the problem is more along the lines of  "condi is delivered dumb and easy when it is present"

I get that cleanse invalidates a lot of condi, but I don't think it's bad and needs emergency buffs. After all, condi builds usually do power damage along with the condi anyway.

 I think it's been as annoying to fight because of how it is delivered, as it has been to deliver because if the build you're fighting is high cleanse and the player knows what they're doing, you just don't win. 

I'd like some hard hitting telegraphed condi moves that do something wild like [25 stacks of bleed for two seconds], so if you know what the move looks like you can avoid it or instacleanse before taking the tick. Like, if I get hit by (unstealthed) prime light beam, I would be fully ok with having 15-20 burn stacks on me for a second or two for that, but right now all the heavy condi damage comes from things as trivial as pressing 1, pressing 3, standing next to a player, them stepping in a trap they can't see until they step in it, etc.

The game needs work before it moves anywhere close to that direction, though.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Curennos.9307]

18 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm gonna press the hot take button and say Rabid[x] is easier to play than valk[y] with int runes, because they both have tankiness but one of them has a consistent damage output but ALSO  that doesn't necessarily make Rabid[x], or condi builds by extension, -less- skillful, objectively. I think the problem is more along the lines of  "condi is delivered dumb and easy when it is present"

I get that cleanse invalidates a lot of condi, but I don't think it's bad and needs emergency buffs. After all, condi builds usually do power damage along with the condi anyway.

 I think it's been as annoying to fight because of how it is delivered, as it has been to deliver because if the build you're fighting is high cleanse and the player knows what they're doing, you just don't win. 

I'd like some hard hitting telegraphed condi moves that do something wild like [25 stacks of bleed for two seconds], so if you know what the move looks like you can avoid it or instacleanse before taking the tick. Like, if I get hit by (unstealthed) prime light beam, I would be fully ok with having 15-20 burn stacks on me for a second or two for that, but right now all the heavy condi damage comes from things as trivial as pressing 1, pressing 3, standing next to a player, them stepping in a trap they can't see until they step in it, etc.

The game needs work before it moves anywhere close to that direction, though.

I won't say all condi skills are well telegraphed, because they're not, but it definitely seems like there's a lot more that are decently telegraphed than one might assume from reading the forums. There are definitely things that toe the line, such as necro's staff 5 that's kind of a lil staff jerking motion, for ex, that could definitely be spruced up a bit. Trap design is more...trap design than an issue with conditions, imo.

 

I'm not too fond of the massive stack, short duration condi burst though. It really just sounds like power but with extra steps, and I enjoy the extra stuff that goes into longer term conditions - fighting against it and having to balance out my more long term sustain, minimizing the little hits I take, etc. 

 

A lot of issues seem to be mechanical or...what's the word, spatial? Design. Such as scourge being...scourge and vomiting out condis, but it's not so much that it vomits out condis (although it definitely was that at some point and can easily still be), but that it vomits out condis using its area-denial abilities in a game mode where you stay in a small circle and retreating from the circle is detrimental in other ways than just directly impacting who lives and dies in the immediate fight. Similarly, traps on a point are a pain because they effectively cover the entire point (maybe there's a sliver of space if they put 'em in the direct center? Not sure). This is true for both the condi ranger trapper whatsit and for DHs. DHs/ranger become easier to deal with when you can just wander in the opposite direction when they steal up, because you know they're going to try to get right to you to drop some traps (issues with trapper rune aside). 

 

To a certain extent I think you're right - but only to the same extent that other build variants are a pain to fight because of the delivery, such as the instant nature of steal being a pain but also class defining and balanced around. I think it's totally fine for builds to have these strengths, and that a big chunk of the issue (perhaps not all of it - I won't claim I'm 100% right on this and I def think things can be changed, such as adding better tells and maybe slightly lowering long term damage while boosting up certain skills so players feel more rewarded when they dodge a condi build's skill) is just that they're being catered to too much by other designs. Sort of like how an arena with three different floors and literally nothing else, nowhere else to go but along the z axis would cater far too much to thieves/classes with multiple z-axis teleports, or a small 600 range arena with no LoS/z-axis movement potential whatever would favor a necromancer over a thief.

[Neomerlin.1475]

I'm necro and I like it !
(melody from that LMFAO track playin while I jump around like a necro from GW1)

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Neomerlin.1475

[Burial.1958]

On 12/8/2021 at 5:20 PM, Varnix.5204 said:

Ok enough is enough, Condi Necro is beyond a joke. You've literally got this class carrying the whole of PvP on its back. It needs a nerf. The rework to resistance has  rendered any point pumping it out useless. Resolution does not do nearly enough to negate the amount of damage the class puts out either. I'm sure a lot of people can agree with this also. In 3's right now, any down you try to grind out with a condi necro on the enemy team, will easily just tear you apart. There's not enough condi cleanses in the world for PvP. 

Condis are overall now pretty kitten. The problem lies that u can burst with them and be tanky at the same time.

[Arheundel.6451]

18 hours ago, Neomerlin.1475 said:

I'm necro and I like it !
(melody from that LMFAO track playin while I jump around like a necro from GW1)

 

Love necros too...especially as pincushions...

[Sltrmhcaoou.2305]

Condi players would take this whines of yours more seriously if you at least tried to say some truth instead of outright making kitten up.
Half of you lot delude yourself into this
1 " condi bursts people "
2 " condi just needs 1 stats to do damage "
you are all wrong
meta is power, meta was power and meta will be power.
power is mechanically superior and its also superior number wise.
power builds are faster, burstier and more tanky.
there is legit 1 build, weaver that can do kitten that most power builds do by default, and even then it has to lose a kidney and a half to do it. Its always power thief, power herald, power holo, power necro, power support guard and other power kitten in the meta.
dont pretend its not, all your condi problems comes from you being bad at the game and not avoiding right skills, cleansing poorly and getting hit by things you should avoid, thats all there is to it. L2P instead off whining all day, I legit make it to p2 easy peasy with a build with 1 cleansing skill that is also my healing skill and the only thing killing me is power builds like herald or my own stupidity. git gud
 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

6 hours ago, oralcumshot.9214 said:

Condi players would take this whines of yours more seriously if you at least tried to say some truth instead of outright making kitten up.
Half of you lot delude yourself into this
1 " condi bursts people "
2 " condi just needs 1 stats to do damage "
you are all wrong
meta is power, meta was power and meta will be power.
power is mechanically superior and its also superior number wise.
power builds are faster, burstier and more tanky.
there is legit 1 build, weaver that can do kitten that most power builds do by default, and even then it has to lose a kidney and a half to do it. Its always power thief, power herald, power holo, power necro, power support guard and other power kitten in the meta.
dont pretend its not, all your condi problems comes from you being bad at the game and not avoiding right skills, cleansing poorly and getting hit by things you should avoid, thats all there is to it. L2P instead off whining all day, I legit make it to p2 easy peasy with a build with 1 cleansing skill that is also my healing skill and the only thing killing me is power builds like herald or my own stupidity. git gud
 

I agree, since meta is full power, let's move condies to the place where they belong, as a kitten support mechanic and not major source of damage.

[Sltrmhcaoou.2305]

3 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I agree, since meta is full power, let's move condies to the place where they belong, as a kitten support mechanic and not major source of damage.

they are major source of damage only when you are bad

[Myror.7521]

To the ones here talking about "Power is meta so Power is better". Just no! The only reason why Power is meta (letz be real meta in side node play. In mid or better said zerk play condition are ways better) is cause of rev, thief, Ranger are more or less Power creep

[Sltrmhcaoou.2305]

1 hour ago, Pati.2438 said:

To the ones here talking about "Power is meta so Power is better". Just no! The only reason why Power is meta (letz be real meta in side node play. In mid or better said zerk play condition are ways better) is cause of rev, thief, Ranger are more or less Power creep

stop making kitten excuses 
every class plays primary power, even the classes you mentioned have condi builds they just suck because power > conditions, nothing else to it. Condi build has to be absurdly broken to be a meta build, kitten like old condi rev that was perpetually invulnerable and even then some power builds can keep up with it.

[coro.3176]

On 12/14/2021 at 9:49 AM, Curennos.9307 said:

Condi builds still have to land skills. Dodge a necro scepter 3 and things are going pretty good. Scepter 2 looks scary, with 5700 tooltip bleed damage with carrion + necromancer runes (I'm lazy in gw2skills) until you notice that's over twenty one seconds. Highly recommend looking at some tooltips to see exactly how much damage skills are doing and how long they take to do that damage, because you're just factually incorrect about a chunk of things. 

 

Could some condi skills use more of a tell? Absolutely. And they definitely have more 'chip' damage that's harder to actually see. Not denying that. But condis aren't some unavoidable, inevitable boogyman. The damage is pretty comparable, especially considering you have **ages** to deal with it compared to power damage.

 

Edit: Can I get a 900 vit, 900 hp, 1200 condi damage amulet? That would be nice.

 

Give this player a medal. At least ONE person actually gets it. I can tell most players here don't because they're complaining about "condi". That indicates to me they lack the game analysis to understand what skills hit them.

 

When a player eats a 10k burst, they understand because it's immediate feedback. They didn't dodge it, so they died. When players eat a condi burst and then cover condi, and then try to heal it, and then eat some more cover condi, and then cleanse everything, and then eat condi again, and then cover condi, and then don't have enough cleanse, and THEN finally die, they look at the death log and get frustrated and say "I died to condi". Well, yes, but also no.

 

Good criticism would look something like:

 

* Skill X has no tell and is too hard to dodge

* Y class has AI features that are applying conditions passively in a way that is too difficult to cleanse for most classes

* the amount of conditions (damage, control, etc) coming from skill Z make it too powerful

 

So by all means, address this stuff. Just don't go "blerg, power good, condi bad!", because that shows you don't really understand what's going on.

 

Also, to address some points people brought up above. Condi builds *need* to be at least a little more tanky than power builds. This is because they need to survive longer (sometimes much much longer) than a power build in a fight. Even the burstiest condi build still needs to survive a few seconds while the condi ticks. This is a long time in GW2 PvP. An attrition condi build might need to survive 20, 30 seconds longer than a burst power build.

 

This is a huge disadvantage to the condi player too, as it gives more time for their opponent to heal, flee, get help from teammates, hold a point, etc.

[felix.2386]

On 12/14/2021 at 7:28 AM, Sltrmhcaoou.2305 said:

condition builds is what keeps people from going full toughness perma prot builds and taking 0 damage
something as simple as changing berserker amulet to demo can make you take 20-25% less damage, when you include runes, traits, prot, other passive damage reduction, weakness you can create builds more or less invulnerable to power damage too.

lol nothing is keeping people from going full toughness perma prot. the main meta is power in the high end with only 1 condi build.

condition is only keep gold bot level noobs from going full toughness perma prot. which is another worthless kitten in the low tier that brings nothing to the table but carry noobs and play the game for them and unfun to play against and toxic. remove these builds, pvp actually become fun again.

but hey, at least the full toughness perma prot troll build can't kill anyone in pvp.

unlike some wvw BS.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by felix.2386

[Psycoprophet.8107]

On 12/12/2021 at 1:34 PM, Horace.3184 said:

How in the world does condi Necro need to be "nerfed" (even tho it has already)?  Condi Necro is the weakest class in the game.  Conditions do not do large sums of damage because other non Necro classes have so much bullet-proofing, DOTs only stay in the hundreds and most players have high amounts of vit and toughness to go along with the bullet-proofing.  Conditions are just removed by most classes or reduced so if this is fact and it is....  How can a condi Necro win a one on one match if conditions are the main thing the condi fights with?

 

Necros are not very mobile at all...unless you add sigils or what ever to get little short speed boosts but that takes away from a sigil or what ever that could aid in combat or staying alive.  Necro abilities have too much cast time as well...like "chill to the bone."  High cast time means time you're getting hit by the other player and that's time you don't have to spare.

 

Necros can't break free from roots, stuns, etc all that well and the worst part about it is... If you do manage to get free from a root, stun, ect...you usually get hit with something else that stops your movement because other classes are OP in that way.

 

Necros life force does not go back up out of combat so if you are lucky enough to win one battle with such a pathetic conditional damage tickage, you're dead if somebody else jumps from the shadows while you have no life force.  There's no reason why the "Devs" can't allow a Necro's life force to go back up while out of combat.  Other classes really don't have this kind of a problem, that's a Necro thing.

 

Necro abilities cooldowns are too large.  The better things you can add to your action bar for one on one survival, becomes useless because other classes can just go immune or bullet-proof in some other way and you will not get the benefit of an ability and then it's stuck on almost a minute cooldown or over a minute.  That is not helpful at all in PvP/WvW.

 

Players really need to stop asking the "Devs" to make the weakest class in the game even weaker because that's not going to balance PvP.  So you'll be happy just killing all Necros, huh?

 

Phft!  I'd rather leave the game when Necros become unplayable at all and they're almost there.

 

If the "Devs" want to fix anything, they can start with "nerfing" all the bullet-proofing abilities other classes have and re-do the Necro mark damage.  There's no reason why any player touching a Mark can't take higher DOTs because they can always move out of the Mark or dodge it or bullet-proof against it.  So why not have Necro Mark DOTs deal 2K or higher damage while the player is touching and the moment they move away, the DOTs can reduce to the usual pathetic DOTs they are now....  That's totally fair because other classes have so much to avoid Mark damage or reduce it.  Increasing damage while touching it will only give a condi Necro a better chance to win because condis are not berzerkers...  Condis can't deal 10k+ damage just off weapon strikes alone like a berzerker can...or ranged players.

 

Rangers can root you for almost 10 seconds (roots do damage!) and drop a 40k rapid fire but I don't see anyone complaining about that.  Most Necros probably don't even have 40k health or barely.  If you want to compain about abilites....

 

Complain about all the immunity to all damage classes can do.  Complain about thieves staying invisible for as long as they like without taking any aoe damage (however they're doing that, along with the x-number of shadow-steps).  Complain about the guardian OP blocking and instant full heals.  Complain about the mesmer's illusions being OP, along with the long range super high DPS.  Complain about the "Engs" OP bullet-proofing.

 

I just gotta ask...  Why are Necro minions so useless in WvW?  Seriously....  No point in using those because they are basically one hit kills.  Just more useless abilities for the Necro in PvP/WvW.  What's up with all the Necro abilities that actually harm the Necro?  That is totally lame!  Might be fine in PvE but not in PvP!  If a Necro harm himself to drop a hit with an ability and another class just bullet-proof through it...  Guess what...  The Necro just helped the other player wipe them out.  Truly brain dead stuff....

 

So if you're failing to take down a condi Necro, you need to check your build because the problem is there.  You might have to put up a little fight against a berzerker Necro but condis are pure rabbit Necros...easy kills and the "Devs" obviously don't give a $^#^.

 

 

 

 

"The Crystal is back..."

 

I agree with this^ 100%. Its pretty obvious necro and it's specs are the highest represented class among all pvp modes along with Guards due to the fact its one of the weakest classes in the roster, I mean it only makes sense right?

[Spellhunter.9675]

35 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Its pretty obvious necro and it's specs are the highest represented class among all pvp modes

Because I and my fellow necromates wanna be full-abyss-dye-painted deathlords.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

1 hour ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Because I and my fellow necromates wanna be full-abyss-dye-painted deathlords.

Very sound reasoning as well I might say.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107