About Scourge in FotM

[Noodle Ant.1605]

12 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Maybe my perspective is borked by playing weaver, but I'll be damned if I can figure why it can't provide utility and doesn't perform significantly better on damage than a class like condi firebrand and somehow this isn't broken?  I look at scourge and see the same thing.  Is weaver destroying the damage charts compared to scourge?  Yet scourge has better range, it has epi, it has barrier, it deals about as much damage (realistically), etc., etc.

I know some will argue that we should bring other classes up, but I don't think that's correct.  I think we're at pretty crazy levels of power creep at this point and it's long since trivialized the content.  So the obvious solution is to nerf it.  Does scourge need nerfing like firebrand and renegade?  No.  But it could use some if you're comparing to classes that aren't brokenly OP, which is what I've been saying.

and im not denying that scg could use a nerf or two, but the random emphasis on its utility is uncalled for. thats not really why it sees success. its just additional marketing to sell using scg over other dps

like i wrote before, blasting guard symbols are utility. blocking projectiles with ele earth dagger 2 is utility. common vuln application is utility, ever tried doing big deeps with <5 vuln before? even cripple is utility. the gw2 community might place additional value on some over others, but it doesnt suddenly make it redundant. there is a lot of utility other classes might bring (if you look hard enough) but wont see the light of day since theyre all underrated, or “covered by someone else” -which can also happen to scg

we dont want to nerf scg because “it has utility”. a lot of classes, including those far from meta “have utility”. we want to nerf it because it overperforms a little too much in certain situations. remove epi and put scg at 32k (cuz reaper sits at 34k as a “selfish dps”) and see if its utility is still enough to convince people to play it over other dps which are dealing 15% more dmg

the majority of the relevant playerbase want ez dps from a dps build, utility has always been largely secondary and i find it odd that its somehow become important only just now

[Nephalem.8921]

On 1/12/2022 at 9:43 AM, Justacravat.8320 said:

IMO I think the community is largely at fault for LFG being filled with 3 classes. I've come across parties that will just straight up kick a druid or ele healer before even saying anything because they refuse to not have a healbrand. I've run across parties that require a condi rr or alacren. These things can be nice in some instances, sure, but they're not at all necessary if you have any clue what you're doing. Mechs aren't designed to be tackled with aegis and can be dodged, or ele/druid can heal you outright better than a healbrand can as their raw heals just beat hb. For fracs like Siren's Reef as well, you'll find people insisting that a hb join the party, but in a lot of groups they struggle to heal through the add damage while you're on the ship and a druid or heal ele is great to pump up a party. Scrapper has the ability to heal well and provide quickness while it does (similar to hb) and it can stealth and superspeed, which are really nice for certain circumstances, but I've also seen so many people refuse a heal scrapper or quick scrap in their party because they've been trained to follow the meta. The only reason there isn't diversity is because half of the people enforcing the meta don't actually understand it and some of these classes, when played at a high enough level, pump out a few percentage points of extra damage or make up for lazy players or not knowing mechanics (aegis/stab)- but let's be honest with ourselves, your average PUG isn't playing at high enough level for it to actually matter. There are benefits and downsides to most specs, but NA LFG needs to realize this for the problem to be fixed. It's not a simple issue of balance.

And you dont seem to understand what makes fb so much better than druid or tempest. first of all: quickness. Also you are not supposed to outheal adds on sirens reef. you should use projectile reflect or absorb and fb has the best in the game.

Heal scrapper might and fury is bad. it can give might but it isnt easy to accomplish. aegis is the strongest heal in the game. NA lfg doesnt even kp check so pugs probably never even do the good strats there. Druid and tempest are a slotwaste in fractals. its that simple. The content is so braindead that you dont need a healer in the first place and both arent bringing good boons either.

[Bakeneko.5826]

12 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

a lot of things related to condi are currently broken op and scg could use some minor nerfs (but epi needs to be nuked somehow). but the problem is that scg is so overrated atm, im not sure if people can see the bigger picture or are getting tricked by how overrated popular things are

Finally some sanity in this thread. I disagree with epi nerf, it's situtional (and situation in fractals is just right atm), but yes - scg is overrated for what it is truly worth.

 

10 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Maybe my perspective is borked by playing weaver, but I'll be damned if I can figure why it can't provide utility and doesn't perform significantly better on damage than a class like condi firebrand and somehow this isn't broken?  I look at scourge and see the same thing.  Is weaver destroying the damage charts compared to scourge?  Yet scourge has better range, it has epi, it has barrier, it deals about as much damage (realistically), etc., etc.

Problem is not scourge or FB, it's weaver and how it interacts with other mechanics. In raids weaver is still VERY strong DPS. Your viewpoint is distorted by looking just at fractal and ignoring strikes, raids, hell, even open world.

 

10 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

So the obvious solution is to nerf it. 

No. Elites, to some extent, sell expacs, and thy need to be alluring to attract players.

 

10 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

But it could use some if you're comparing to classes that aren't brokenly OP, which is what I've been saying.

Problem is, with this topic, we are comparing fractals like it is full rep of ALL PvE. It is not. It is small subset of instanced content where scourge isn't top performed by any metric. It's like saying HSCG is op, because it is mandatory to Boneskinner while ignoring, that HSCG is covering for skipping mechanics.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Finally some sanity in this thread. I disagree with epi nerf, it's situtional (and situation in fractals is just right atm), but yes - scg is overrated for what it is truly worth.

 

Problem is not scourge or FB, it's weaver and how it interacts with other mechanics. In raids weaver is still VERY strong DPS. Your viewpoint is distorted by looking just at fractal and ignoring strikes, raids, hell, even open world.

 

No. Elites, to some extent, sell expacs, and thy need to be alluring to attract players.

 

Problem is, with this topic, we are comparing fractals like it is full rep of ALL PvE. It is not. It is small subset of instanced content where scourge isn't top performed by any metric. It's like saying HSCG is op, because it is mandatory to Boneskinner while ignoring, that HSCG is covering for skipping mechanics.

Sorry, no.  Raids are the small subset and firebrand/renegade/scourge have much higher representation than weaver there, too.

[JSmooth.7654]

"...if it werent for epi and people reading cleave dps all the time, people mightve realised that any reasonable condi build could pull similar numbers while bringing their own unique set of 'utility.'"

 

This comment is ridiculously underrated.

 

Back when I played WoW, most players who used DPS meters for any length of time understood that aoe dps was largely irrelevant. The only number that mattered most of the time was single target (boss) dps. But with GW2, people look at the arcdps cleave damage and gawk at the 'over performing' classes. "Look that class! They pulled 100k omega dps on these adds!!1!!!!" Are there boss fights where aoe damage matters? Sure. Aoe damage certainly helps in the Swampland fractal for example. But its impact is largely overblown in the vast majority of fractal runs.

[Bakeneko.5826]

4 hours ago, JSmooth.7654 said:

"...if it werent for epi and people reading cleave dps all the time, people mightve realised that any reasonable condi build could pull similar numbers while bringing their own unique set of 'utility.'"

 

This comment is ridiculously underrated.

 

Back when I played WoW, most players who used DPS meters for any length of time understood that aoe dps was largely irrelevant. The only number that mattered most of the time was single target (boss) dps. But with GW2, people look at the arcdps cleave damage and gawk at the 'over performing' classes. "Look that class! They pulled 100k omega dps on these adds!!1!!!!" Are there boss fights where aoe damage matters? Sure. Aoe damage certainly helps in the Swampland fractal for example. But its impact is largely overblown in the vast majority of fractal runs.

Its because arc by default is set to cleave. But you have very strong point.

[AliamRationem.5172]

Just listened to Teapot explain how his raid's 6 scourge comp pulls a sub 2 hour clear.  According to him, while potential damage is higher in other comps, scourge just makes the run go so smoothly you end up with both easier and faster clear times in practice.

It's good to know balance isn't only perfect in FotM, but raids as well.  Give yourselves a pat on the back for a job well done, ANet.  This is truly the worst balancing I've ever seen in an MMO and that is really an amazing accomplishment given how bad MMO balancing tends to be!

It's a shame FFXIV's combat sucks.  I hear they actually concern themselves with class balance.  Mind. Blown.

 

[Bakeneko.5826]

8 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Just listened to Teapot explain how his raid's 6 scourge comp pulls a sub 2 hour clear.  According to him, while potential damage is higher in other comps, scourge just makes the run go so smoothly you end up with both easier and faster clear times in practice.

It's good to know balance isn't only perfect in FotM, but raids as well.  Give yourselves a pat on the back for a job well done, ANet.  This is truly the worst balancing I've ever seen in an MMO and that is really an amazing accomplishment given how bad MMO balancing tends to be!

It's a shame FFXIV's combat sucks.  I hear they actually concern themselves with class balance.  Mind. Blown.

 

Ark releases soon, if you want another MMO. And 6 scourge party is no faster in non pug groups and lower clear time only applies to pug groups (and that youtubers viewer runs, i guess)

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Ark releases soon, if you want another MMO. And 6 scourge party is no faster in non pug groups and lower clear time only applies to pug groups (and that youtubers viewer runs, i guess)

Keep fighting the good fight, brother.  We'll make sure scourge stays OP into EoD, yessir!

[Bakeneko.5826]

16 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Keep fighting the good fight, brother.  We'll make sure scourge stays OP into EoD, yessir!

Im not sure you know what OP is (ahem... cfb)

[AliamRationem.5172]

21 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Im not sure you know what OP is (ahem... cfb)

I'm aware, but renegade and scourge come next in line.

[LKEY.9567]

People wanted monkey typing DPS class.

People got monkey typing DPS class.

No problem at all. Someone mentioned up there good points: cleave damage setup with Epi, no knowledge ceiling of Scourge, no idea how good comps work.

At least, causal players can enjoy CM now.

P.S. it's not hate speech towards anyone, i despise fractal meta and i don't play it anymore so i don't care.

[Bakeneko.5826]

3 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'm aware, but renegade and scourge come next in line.

Scourge is so OP, it's less popular than 5 other specs in high end PvE :D

[Cyninja.2954]

58 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Scourge is so OP, it's less popular than 5 other specs in high end PvE :D

I really hope you are not referring to the "All Eras" graph at the end.... So desperately hoping you are not because it would not bold well for you graph reading and comprehension skills.

As far as popularity, those graphs pretty much confirm scourge as 3rd place behind fb and renegade at the current point in time while showing the popularity changes in the past.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Scourge is so OP, it's less popular than 5 other specs in high end PvE :D

You might want to check that graph again, chief.  I don't think it means what you think it means.

[anbujackson.9564]

7 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Scourge is so OP, it's less popular than 5 other specs in high end PvE :D

That was even more embarassing than your excuses for its performance. 

Also straight up copied from the thread where you stated this:

"Yes, just like with GW2efficiency data, it is not full data or representation of real world. You have subset of people who cared enough to generate API and subset who added it to gw2 Wingman. And data dispersion is so wide, some points have over 100k data points and latest only 15k, or 10% of total players who gave some data a year before. Either GW2 bled a lot of players, or tool is not much used. And i am leaning to tool not being too popular."

"Its biased towards arbitrary group of people who added API key. And any biased data set is bad data set."

Seriously dude?

Edited January 17, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[AliamRationem.5172]

6 hours ago, LKEY.9567 said:

People wanted monkey typing DPS class.

People got monkey typing DPS class.

No problem at all. Someone mentioned up there good points: cleave damage setup with Epi, no knowledge ceiling of Scourge, no idea how good comps work.

At least, causal players can enjoy CM now.

P.S. it's not hate speech towards anyone, i despise fractal meta and i don't play it anymore so i don't care.

I'd like fractals better if it felt like more classes added value to a group.  I'd like it even more if we gave up on this non-trinity-but-sorta-trinity gameplay and just admitted that the experiment has failed.

You want healers?  Okay, fine.  Then let's do it properly by updates to the UI and skill design to support targeted healing/buffing.  No more of this stack-in-a-pile garbage driven by rabidly adhering to a failed design concept.

We also require a means for players to control boss positioning/movement (i.e. tanking).  Otherwise we're back to stacking in a pile, right?

Seriously, does anybody really like this kind of gameplay?  Do we like a meta where the best classes all have the same design: spam area support/damage while everyone stacks on the boss?  All credit to ANet for designing some pretty fun encounters in spite of these self-imposed limitations, but when are we going to admit that this just doesn't work?

[anbujackson.9564]

5 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'd like fractals better if it felt like more classes added value to a group.  I'd like it even more if we gave up on this non-trinity-but-sorta-trinity gameplay and just admitted that the experiment has failed.

You want healers?  Okay, fine.  Then let's do it properly by updates to the UI and skill design to support targeted healing/buffing.  No more of this stack-in-a-pile garbage driven by rabidly adhering to a failed design concept.

We also require a means for players to control boss positioning/movement (i.e. tanking).  Otherwise we're back to stacking in a pile, right?

Seriously, does anybody really like this kind of gameplay?  Do we like a meta where the best classes all have the same design: spam area support/damage while everyone stacks on the boss?  All credit to ANet for designing some pretty fun encounters in spite of these self-imposed limitations, but when are we going to admit that this just doesn't work?

I know what you mean but you would need to fundamentally change the whole game. Thats not happening,

The thing is that it would be less of a spam fiesta if boon application would require somewhat of a rotation like the old chrono used to do. Remember those rotations? Using your boon skills after swapping your weapon to proc concentration sigill for that sweet 33 % bonus. Those were the times man. Not the hey I press F4 on cooldown or hey let me just spam my instant cast mantras.

Edited January 17, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Bakeneko.5826]

19 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I really hope you are not referring to the "All Eras" graph at the end.... So desperately hoping you are not because it would not bold well for you graph reading and comprehension skills.

As far as popularity, those graphs pretty much confirm scourge as 3rd place behind fb and renegade at the current point in time while showing the popularity changes in the past.

Now you know how good players feel reading your "class change suggestions". Case and point.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Bakeneko.5826

[anbujackson.9564]

9 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Now you know how good players feel reading your "class change suggestions". Case and point.

How this even make any sense? He questioned your basic skills to understand data.

Is this really your lame excuse to distract from your false statements? Jesus, just stop.

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

I'm not an expert on balance or anything, and certainly not an expert on Necromancer. And hey, just throwing this out there, but like, I can throw on Trailblazer Armor and Torment runes, and face tank most of the game. So...y'know...maybe Scourge is a little overtuned?

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

41 minutes ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

I'm not an expert on balance or anything, and certainly not an expert on Necromancer. And hey, just throwing this out there, but like, I can throw on Trailblazer Armor and Torment runes, and face tank most of the game. So...y'know...maybe Scourge is a little overtuned?

In full Trainblazer most Condi builds can facetank anything really.