Perma Stealth Thiefs - What to do?

[Sahne.6950]

4 minutes ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

For all newcomers, allow me to summarize this thread for ya'll.

Ahem

"Nerf/Delete everything I don't like. How dare you make me put put effort, or, god forbid use my brain! *gasps in l2p*"

You're welcome.

well infact in the beginning there is something that makes sense and should be looked at imo. Thiefs being able to survive 15+ people in a keep while also being able to port their own allys into the said keep.

Thiefs having a portal makes room for some really frustrating gameplay where 15+ people are just running around in a keep like headlesschicken because there is a permastealth thief in the keep. as soon as they stop dealing with him he begins to teleport people in it and they take that keep.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

Just now, Sahne.6950 said:

well infact in the beginning there is something that makes sense and should be looked at imo. Thiefs being able to survive 15+ people in a keep while also being able to port their own allys into the said keep. Its a big thing in WvW....

I stopped taking "nerf teef" threads seriously a long time ago, bud. Ya'll want nerfs to thief, but when anyone dares ask for compensation, even something as meager as a rework to 300s cd traits, you fly off the hinges. There have been plenty of reasonable suggestions made by Thieves, in the Thief forum for years, but you don't want to hear about buffs or compnesation.

You all just want to delete everything you don't like. 

[Sahne.6950]

5 minutes ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

I stopped taking "nerf teef" threads seriously a long time ago, bud. Ya'll want nerfs to thief, but when anyone dares ask for compensation, even something as meager as a rework to 300s cd traits, you fly off the hinges. There have been plenty of reasonable suggestions made by Thieves, in the Thief forum for years, but you don't want to hear about buffs or compnesation.

You all just want to delete everything you don't like. 

why do you quote me? i am the one saying no to most of the suggestions here because they would be nerfs to thiefs... have you even read the whole post? delete everything you dont like!? 😧 i LOVE TEEF ❤️

i am demanding a solution for the "permastealth in keeps and port your mates in here" problem.. not a nerf for thiefs. the permastealth itself is not the problem it is the ability to teleport people in closed objectives in WvW. Mesmers have the same ability too but they are easiert to catch in a keep in comparison to a thief. A single player or even 2 will NEVER get a decent thief out of the keep.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

11 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

why do you quote me? i am the one saying no to most of the suggestions here because they would be nerfs to thiefs... have you even read the whole post?

i am demanding a fix for the "permastealth in keeps and port your mates in here" problem.. not a nerf for thiefs.

 

Uh, because you quoted me...? And I read the whole post. If you meant the whole thread, then lol no. That'd be a waste of time. 11 Pages obstinate screaming about how teef is OP (and yet one of the least played classes in the game 🤔)  None of these people want to hear about buffs or compensation; it's all about deleting things they don't like. 

I suppose I'll waste my breath and repeat what the reasonable people in this thread have already said; if you nerf shadow arts, then you should buff something else in compensation. Like 300cd traits, or rework acrobatics. Something. 

Edit: I'd also add that I wouldn't mind Shadow Arts being toned down. As long as Acrobatics gets the love it needs and deserves. Ah, but I guess that just makes me a filthy thief defender. 🤷‍♂️

Edited February 17, 2022 by Keitaro Dragonheart.9047

[Sahne.6950]

17 minutes ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

 

Uh, because you quoted me...? And I read the whole post. If you meant the whole thread, then lol no. That'd be a waste of time. 11 Pages obstinate screaming about how teef is OP (and yet one of the least played classes in the game 🤔)  None of these people want to hear about buffs or compensation; it's all about deleting things they don't like. 

I suppose I'll waste my breath and repeat what the reasonable people in this thread have already said; if you nerf shadow arts, then you should buff something else in compensation. Like 300cd traits, or rework acrobatics. Something. 

Edit: I'd also add that I wouldn't mind Shadow Arts being toned down. As long as Acrobatics gets the love it needs and deserves. Ah, but I guess that just makes me a filthy thief defender. 🤷‍♂️

ahh okey if you would have read the whole thread you would have noticed that i was infact giving suggestions for compensations and how to do certain things. I was the one that was saying that thiefs doesnt need any nerfs...

but you quoted me and said things like : There have been plenty of reasonable suggestions made by Thieves, in the Thief forum for years, but you don't want to hear about buffs or compnesation.

 but i understand now what you mean.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

ahh okey if you would have read the whole thread you would have noticed that i was infact giving suggestions for compensations and how to do certain things. I was the one that was saying that thiefs doesnt need any nerfs...

Well then, good for you. You're one of the very few reasonable people where thief is concerned. Unfortunately, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're just banging your head against the wall. The people you're trying to convince, don't care. 

[Sahne.6950]

Just now, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

Well then, good for you. You're one of the very few reasonable people where thief is concerned. Unfortunately, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're just banging your head against the wall. The people you're trying to convince, don't care. 

hmm from my feeling the people read and understood what i was saying... no one was like: BUBUBUB YOUR WRONG!!!! NERF THIEF.

I sense alot of anger in you my friend.

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

3 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

hmm from my feeling the people read and understood what i was saying... no one was like: BUBUBUB YOUR WRONG!!!! NERF THIEF.

I sense alot of anger in you my friend.

Nah, not so much anger as resignation. I've been reading threads like this since Headstart, 2012. And I've come across at least a dozen people who openly admit they just want the whole class deleted from the game. Just some friendly advice; quit while you're ahead. It'll save you a lot of headaches.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Keitaro Dragonheart.9047

[Sahne.6950]

1 minute ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

Nah, not so much anger as resignation. I've been reading threads like this since Headstart, 2012. And I've come across at least a dozen people who openly admit they just want the whole class deleted from the game.

but why even participate in the debate? when all you have to say is: people in theef forums are crybabys that dont want to hear any reasonable arguments! they are just here to cry and get teef deleted!

dont waste your breath if you think it is wasted.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

Just now, Sahne.6950 said:

but why even participate in the debate? when all you have to say is: people in theef forums are crybabys that dont want to hear any reasonable arguments! they are just here to cry and get teef deleted!

dont waste your breath if you think it is wasted.

That's because once upon a time, I used to care about the debate and the balance. Meh, maybe I still care on some level; Thief is one of my three favorite classes. Or maybe it's only because I worry one of these days, Anet may actually take these people seriously. Looking at the state of Warrior (3rd favorite class), I'd say that's cause for concern.

Anyways, all I did was summarize the thread for late comers. 😁

[Sahne.6950]

that is a like from me:D if teef would get the treatment that warrior has received i will be out! fingerscrossed that thats never going to happen.

but , and i say that as someone that loves to play thief, the shadowportal paired with permastealth in keeps results in some pretty lame gameplay when being on the receiving end. Some changes would be more then welcome, but they shouldnt change the performance of thief as a whole.

what i can not get behind is the cry for people asking to nerf stealth as a whole.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Mabi black.1824]

so this special treatment for the warrior is fine while for the thief it is not. then arenanet's law is not the same for everyone.

 

jokes aside, something about the thief as about other classes (and here on the forum they have been mentioned several times) must be corrected. the administrator should constantly work to monitor and where necessary correct with the sole objective of giving players a good game and counter game fundamental aspect in every pvp mode.

 

[Burial.1958]

6 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

that is a like from me:D if teef would get the treatment that warrior has received i will be out! fingerscrossed that thats never going to happen.

but , and i say that as someone that loves to play thief, the shadowportal paired with permastealth in keeps results in some pretty lame gameplay when being on the receiving end. Some changes would be more then welcome, but they shouldnt change the performance of thief as a whole.

what i can not get behind is the cry for people asking to nerf stealth as a whole.

 

Mostly they are DE and they have indeed to much stealth and are annoying as hell. But for me it stands that Nade Spammer Engis are even more toxic to the Balance. It is a joke that they can literally 1 shot peoples and have stealth, boons, heal. barrier and reflect spam at ones. I see alot more of these cheeese Players than permastealther. Even  whole groups of 5+ of them killing a half zerg with stealth, static and then nade spamm like diarrhea on keyboard and hours of camping at the keep  to gank straggler.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Grebcol.5984

[Sahne.6950]

17 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

so this special treatment for the warrior is fine while for the thief it is not.

nope! My poor boy warrior didnt deserve this treatment.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

12 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

I see alot more of these cheeese Players than permastealther.

thats because they are permastealth.... BADUMTSSS 😄 

back to business! superspeedNadeScrapper is problematic aswell but it is a completly diffrent topic.. 

sorry for the short derail. but here i go 😄

EVERYTHING about the build is fine.... its just one simple thing they need or should change..... PERMANENT SUPERSPEED. The permanensuperspeed allows you to kite whole zergs ( we all know this video 😄 ) and widdle them down while doing it, because you can also throw the nades backwards. 

most suggestions are very wild and complete reworks of the greandekit.. but i think the solution to nadescrappe is far simpler.

option a) reduce the superspeed to not be permanent... make it like 70% uptime that would change alot already. (derail in the derail: Same could be done for flamethrower scrapper. make the stabi that it gives not permanent, rather make it 70%)

option b) Nades can not be thrown backwards anymore.    this would fix the mindless Run and gun gameplay.  Superspeed only gives 100% speedbonus while going forward. going sideways or backwards doesnt give the full 100%bonus. so this would fix the run and gun playstyle that we currently see, where the engie is just permanently running away from you and spamming nades behind him.

maybe scrapper needs some things in return tho, because i dont think that scrapper overall is to strong. I dont want to nerf scrapper, i just wish they would change this mindless "i-Run-away-and-u-die" gameplay.

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Burial.1958]

15 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

thats because they are permastealth.... BADUMTSSS 😄 

back to business! superspeedNadeScrapper is problematic aswell but it is a completly diffrent topic.. 

sorry for the short derail. but here i go 😄

EVERYTHING about the build is fine.... its just one simple thing they need or should change..... PERMANENT SUPERSPEED. The permanensuperspeed allows you to kite whole zergs ( we all know this video 😄 ) and widdle them down while doing it, because you can also throw the nades backwards. 

most suggestions are very wild and complete reworks of the greandekit.. but i think the solution to nadescrappe is far simpler.

option a) reduce the superspeed to not be permanent... make it like 70% uptime that would change alot already. (derail in the derail: Same could be done for flamethrower scrapper. make the stabi that it gives not permanent, rather make it 70%)

option b) Nades can not be thrown backwards anymore.    this would fix the mindless Run and gun gameplay.  Superspeed only gives 100% speedbonus while going forward. going sideways or backwards doesnt give the full 100%bonus. so this would fix the run and gun playstyle that we currently see, where the engie is just permanently running away from you and spamming nades behind him.

maybe scrapper needs some things in return tho, because i dont think that scrapper overall is to strong. I dont want to nerf scrapper, i just wish they would change this mindless "i-Run-away-and-u-die" gameplay.

 

 It is not only the superspeed. Also the Dmg is to much. Thief got nerfed at RLS because you could 1 Shot people with Backstab. And yeah the gameplay is complete kitten because it counters literally all melee fights. For Range they also have reflect, lul. 

[Caedmon.6798]

On 2/16/2022 at 7:21 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Im pretty sure i said d/p with SA i didnt say d/p alone was super op i said the combo was

So whats the difference if you can perm stack stealth without Sa and DP as with Sa and DP ? Exactly,None. And people throw around Sa being OP while having no clue about how thief even works or that perm stealth can be done without Sa.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Caedmon.6798

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

28 minutes ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

So whats the difference if you can perm stack stealth without Sa and DP as with Sa and DP ? Exactly,None. And people throw around Sa being OP while having no clue about how thief even works or that perm stealth can be done without Sa.

Teefs without SA : less mobility, less stealth uptime, less stealth access, less sustain, less condi cleanse, less boon reaps. That was quite easy to spot, probably because I'm capable of using eyes.

I knew teef players were kinda disconnected from reality, but it's quite a dissappointment at this point. 

[Caedmon.6798]

40 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Teefs without SA : less mobility, less stealth uptime, less stealth access, less sustain, less condi cleanse, less boon reaps. That was quite easy to spot, probably because I'm capable of using eyes.

I knew teef players were kinda disconnected from reality, but it's quite a dissappointment at this point. 

stealth uptime is only 1 sec extra
mobility, if thats what you wanna call it is  50% speed in stealth only
the sustain is only 293 a sec and again only in stealth
shadow siphon is only 504 from a Stealth attack only ( WoW )
most people run hidden thief for stealth on steal above the condi cleanse anyway,so theres no extra condi cleanse. Most of the cleanses coming from a combination of Heal + Agi + Shadowstep ( Which is available on every thief spec ).
boon steal is only if you dont pick shadow rejuv "sustain"

Yeah im sure you know what youre talking about


FYI,The only reason i use Sa on DE is because of Stealth on Steal which fits perfectly for the spec,i dont even care about the rest of it. Theyre not having the impact as most of you think.

If you strip away too much from thief, it will lose its identity. Thief is just Very different as other classes,close to mesmer. It needs the things people want to see nerfed.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Caedmon.6798

[Salt Mode.3780]

8 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

So whats the difference if you can perm stack stealth without Sa and DP as with Sa and DP ? Exactly,None. And people throw around Sa being OP while having no clue about how thief even works or that perm stealth can be done without Sa.

You really want to know what is the difference lets break it up to 2 parts first lets talk about the Minors on SA. 

First Minor Concealing Restoration : you gain stealth on heal for WvW its 1 second for sPVP its .5 second.

Pair this with withdraw you have a stealth and evade at the same time at a 25 sec cd, mind that this also removes debilitating condis.

Second Minor Meld with Shadows : You gain increase stealth uptime AND movement speed by

50% so first skill allows one of ur heals to evade and stealth while gaining 50% movement speed because ALL your debilitating condis are removed.

Third Minor Shadow Siphoning  : This allows you to heal on ur first attack when stealthed with a 1 second ICD on the same target. 

So combine that with the other 3 minors...need I say more???

THESE ARE MINORS THAT REQUIRE NOTHING THEY ARE FREE.

Lets talk about some of the traits,

Shadow's embrace removes DAMAGING condis off you per 3 second interval while you are in stealth, this is a adept trait btw.

Flickering shadows is a 33% damage reduction while you are revealed, this offsets much of the punishment for being revealed.

For those who complain about thieves needing to use initiatives....well you have a GM trait called Shadow's rejuvenation. 

So explain to me how any of this is balanced with dagger pistol when you can EASILY access stealth on demand.

NONE of the said traits have a ICD based on activation meaning they will proc as long as you stealth. 

SA makes allows you to make mistakes without consequences unlike MOST classes out there.

Fact that thief mains refuse to acknowledge how stupid SA synergizes with d/p is EXTREMELY surprising.

 

I agree thieves need buffing in other areas and weapon sets, but at the same time they need to NERF SA with d/p its as simple as that. You cannot expect buffs while keeping SA D/P the way it is.

 

FYI you dont need a brain to put up a smoke field and combo leap into it several times, fact that it costs initiatives and with no CD its not hard to upkeep that stealth and maintain it especially with Shadow's Rejuvenation. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Salt Mode.3780]

7 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

If you strip away too much from thief, it will lose its identity. Thief is just Very different as other classes,close to mesmer. It needs the things people want to see nerfed.

This is so hilarious and untrue in SOOO many ways. 

When you get a whole dodge removed and traits completely taken out of the game or mechanics that have no traits in conjunction with it or how about boons that other classes can apply better and more cost efficient then compare the 2.

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

9 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

stealth uptime is only 1 sec extra
mobility, if thats what you wanna call it is  50% speed in stealth only
the sustain is only 293 a sec and again only in stealth
shadow siphon is only 504 from a Stealth attack only ( WoW )
most people run hidden thief for stealth on steal above the condi cleanse anyway,so theres no extra condi cleanse. Most of the cleanses coming from a combination of Heal + Agi + Shadowstep ( Which is available on every thief spec ).
boon steal is only if you dont pick shadow rejuv "sustain"

Yeah im sure you know what youre talking about


FYI,The only reason i use Sa on DE is because of Stealth on Steal which fits perfectly for the spec,i dont even care about the rest of it. Theyre not having the impact as most of you think.

If you strip away too much from thief, it will lose its identity. Thief is just Very different as other classes,close to mesmer. It needs the things people want to see nerfed.

So you're aware what it gives and you still decided to be simply blind? Amazing.
If it's "worthless" as you try to claim, why do you even pick it in the first place? Why rest of teefs does the same? There MUST be a reason for that, no?
People really ignore all the stuff it provides and claim it's not busted, but every single one of them runs it.

[cobbah.3102]

Stealth will be deleted in 2025 just be patient!!

[kash.9213]

11 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

You really want to know what is the difference lets break it up to 2 parts first lets talk about the Minors on SA. 

First Minor Concealing Restoration : you gain stealth on heal for WvW its 1 second for sPVP its .5 second.

Pair this with withdraw you have a stealth and evade at the same time at a 25 sec cd, mind that this also removes debilitating condis.

Second Minor Meld with Shadows : You gain increase stealth uptime AND movement speed by

50% so first skill allows one of ur heals to evade and stealth while gaining 50% movement speed because ALL your debilitating condis are removed.

Third Minor Shadow Siphoning  : This allows you to heal on ur first attack when stealthed with a 1 second ICD on the same target. 

So combine that with the other 3 minors...need I say more???

THESE ARE MINORS THAT REQUIRE NOTHING THEY ARE FREE.

Lets talk about some of the traits,

Shadow's embrace removes DAMAGING condis off you per 3 second interval while you are in stealth, this is a adept trait btw.

Flickering shadows is a 33% damage reduction while you are revealed, this offsets much of the punishment for being revealed.

For those who complain about thieves needing to use initiatives....well you have a GM trait called Shadow's rejuvenation. 

So explain to me how any of this is balanced with dagger pistol when you can EASILY access stealth on demand.

NONE of the said traits have a ICD based on activation meaning they will proc as long as you stealth. 

SA makes allows you to make mistakes without consequences unlike MOST classes out there.

Fact that thief mains refuse to acknowledge how stupid SA synergizes with d/p is EXTREMELY surprising.

 

I agree thieves need buffing in other areas and weapon sets, but at the same time they need to NERF SA with d/p its as simple as that. You cannot expect buffs while keeping SA D/P the way it is.

 

FYI you dont need a brain to put up a smoke field and combo leap into it several times, fact that it costs initiatives and with no CD its not hard to upkeep that stealth and maintain it especially with Shadow's Rejuvenation. 

You listed a bunch of stuff that can't be taken at the same time as if they're taken at the same time. Well done.

[Salt Mode.3780]

7 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

You listed a bunch of stuff that can't be taken at the same time as if they're taken at the same time. Well done.

Im sorry what???? I guess this is why you are confused on why people are asking for nerfs...