Perma Stealth Thiefs - What to do?

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

6 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

You are indeed a trolling Demigod. 

I've simply presented so called "counters" that many teef players are posting here and claiming that they somehow work, nothing beyond that.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

On 2/10/2022 at 11:11 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

How is that new to thieves exclusively, everyone always asks for nerfs without any good suggestions

Well, my solution is easy and fair: remove stealth from the game. Leave everything else as is.

Thieves will still have their insane dmg and mobility. They will be fine. And the rest of the players will be glad to not be hit by 20x10k vaults out of nowhere. 

[Burial.1958]

21 hours ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

Well, my solution is easy and fair: remove stealth from the game. Leave everything else as is.

Thieves will still have their insane dmg and mobility. They will be fine. And the rest of the players will be glad to not be hit by 20x10k vaults out of nowhere. 

When u loose against a staff thief then the problem really lies on an other end.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

53 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

When u loose against a staff thief then the problem really lies on an other end.

That's very informative post right there. Explain fully what you meant by what you wrote.

[AlCapwnd.7834]

On 1/4/2022 at 9:49 PM, Virdo.1540 said:

We recently have trouble on our server with fighting against groups including multiple thiefs. If one wall is open, they will wait for hours until they can get their friends back in to destroy inner wall (t3 keeps) and we havent found a way to deal with them.

 

Traps to Reveal arent triggering or are simply running out with mega ports of thiefs.

Skill-Reveals are never hitting, if yes,  port through the whole keep -> invisible again

 

And permanently having people camp in the lord room doesnt work either, because after a little bit waiting, the enemy group gets simply bigger. 

 

Are people having any advice what to do against them?

Ive been having a lot of fun stomping thief's with Warrior. Use "on My Mark" and watch the dodge around like morons while dieing from condis. With out stealth. Most thiefs are clueless derpy derps

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

 

On 2/13/2022 at 8:25 PM, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

Well, my solution is easy and fair: remove stealth from the game. Leave everything else as is.

Thieves will still have their insane dmg and mobility. They will be fine. And the rest of the players will be glad to not be hit by 20x10k vaults out of nowhere. 

The hyperbole really sells it...!! No mention of reworked traits, skills or gear. That'll show 'em thieves! Oh wait, there are other classes who rely on stealth, too...

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

'rely'? Really? Not like thief - and my solution would solve that abuse as well.

Thief mains almost always pretend that stealth doesn't really matter. But if someone says 'fine, remove stealth, leave the rest as is' they get a collective heart attack. Which tells you everything you need to know about stealth, thieves and thieves mains.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Just now, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

'rely'? Really? Not like thief - and my solution would solve that abuse as well.

Thief mains almost always pretend that stealth doesn't really matter. But if someone says 'fine, remove stealth, leave the rest as is' they get a collective heart attack. Which tells you everything you need to know about stealth, thieves and thieves mains.

Venting for the sake of venting seems a tad unconstructive. I, too, combat self-made strawmen on my freetime. It makes me happy!

[Burial.1958]

7 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

That's very informative post right there. Explain fully what you meant by what you wrote.

 A staff thief don't have stealth. Only when he slot Shadow Refugee or Blinding Powder or when he steal an other thief or when he Slot D/P as 2nd Weaponset + Trait. but nearly 99% have SB or second staff. Blinding Power only grants 3 Sec Stealth with a 40 Sec CD. Shadow Refugee is a big Mark where u can bomb all you AoE + long CD.  So that mean 80% of staff users do not use stealth at all (Also not SA) and this Weapon is not good at Smallscale. Vault is easy countered with dodge and several Skills. This Set is only choosed for Zergplay and there,  he mostly gain Stealth from Engineers. As i said when u really loose against a Staff thief in a 1vs1 or Smallscale then u made big faults. 

 The only annoying thing could be the Evade but that is his defensiv without he would have 0 defensive options beside Blinding Power or Bandit Defense and Daggerstorm. 

So his post was bad because staff is a non stealth set and doesn't has that stealth abillity like D/P or Deadeye.  It is in his playstyle similiar to S/D but S/D is a much stronger Set in Smallscale than Staff. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Grebcol.5984

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

46 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 A staff thief don't have stealth. Only when he slot Shadow Refugee or Blinding Powder or when he steal an other thief or when he Slot D/P as 2nd Weaponset + Trait. but nearly 99% have SB or second staff. Blinding Power only grants 3 Sec Stealth with a 40 Sec CD. Shadow Refugee is a big Mark where u can bomb all you AoE + long CD.  So that mean 80% of staff users do not use stealth at all (Also not SA) and this Weapon is not good at Smallscale. Vault is easy countered with dodge and several Skills. This Set is only choosed for Zergplay and there,  he mostly gain Stealth from Engineers. As i said when u really loose against a Staff thief in a 1vs1 or Smallscale then u made big faults. 

 The only annoying thing could be the Evade but that is his defensiv without he would have 0 defensive options beside Blinding Power or Bandit Defense and Daggerstorm. 

So his post was bad because staff is a non stealth set and doesn't has that stealth abillity like D/P or Deadeye.  It is in his playstyle similiar to S/D but S/D is a much stronger Set in Smallscale than Staff. 

Hide in Shadows is probably the best actual stealth skill to use for some staff cheese. But, again, it's just very situational. Works best to surprise an unsuspecting zerg, but firebrands and scourges will outsustain you anyways, so ideally a 3-5 man squad with a single pocket b-- support.

Edited February 15, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

That's very informative post right there. Explain fully what you meant by what you wrote.

I think that's a reasonable request -right after we see those sick "20 x 10k vault out of stealth nowhere" plays that post was respoding to.

[anduriell.6280]

7 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I think that's a reasonable request -right after we see those sick "20 x 10k vault out of stealth nowhere" plays that post was respoding to.

I personally don't find Vault damage, cleave or range that aggravating, if I have to point out something it would be it does it while evading. 

Like I don't understand what are the devs thinking when they keep pushing this immunities while doing that burst damage in this class: Vault, Dagger_Storm or the traits Lotus_Training or Bounding_Dodger . Those are very toxic mechanics which only counterplay is to avoid combat with thief. 

They removed the random evade in ranger's GS autoattack chain because evades while doing damage yet this is enforced by Anet balance team. Like seriously what a joke. 

[Burial.1958]

8 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Hide in Shadows is probably the best actual stealth skill to use for some staff cheese. But, again, it's just very situational. Works best to surprise an unsuspecting zerg, but firebrands and scourges will outsustain you anyways, so ideally a 3-5 man squad with a single pocket b-- support.

True forgot that. But yeah it is no surprise that most staff thiefs don't slot that. Because u choose Acro over SA in most cases. So the Synergy with stealth skills isn't really there. 

 

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I personally don't find Vault damage, cleave or range that aggravating, if I have to point out something it would be it does it while evading. 

Like I don't understand what are the devs thinking when they keep pushing this immunities while doing that burst damage in this class: Vault, Dagger_Storm or the traits Lotus_Training or Bounding_Dodger . Those are very toxic mechanics which only counterplay is to avoid combat with thief. 

They removed the random evade in ranger's GS autoattack chain because evades while doing damage yet this is enforced by Anet balance team. Like seriously what a joke. 

So after SA and D/P also Staff is OP then because of Evading. Oh man. I wrote that several pages ago that this arguments will come right after SA delete debate.  Than staff was nerfed because in the past u could vault + Steal. That is now impossible. Also dmg was nerfed.

[anduriell.6280]

3 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

So after SA and D/P also Staff is OP then because of Evading. Oh man. I wrote that several pages ago that this arguments will come right after SA delete debate.  Than staff was nerfed because in the past u could vault + Steal. That is now impossible. Also dmg was nerfed.

Yep that something usually Anet does, to nerf things it should not nerf instead tackling the main issue. Talking about one dodge's mirage for example or reducing the target cap per shade for scourge. 

I did not see any problems  with Vault+steal. Even the nerf to steal range (another disputable nerf) would have worked with Vault range as both are the same. 
Damage was nerfed all across the game so I see that fine, the skill still does plenty in WvW.  

Yet the dev team did not touch the evade on the skill when plenty of players told that was the low-risk high-reward mechanic they had an issue with. I personally find the perma-evade DD build very cheesy and it is aggravating that it can dish that damage while evading. It does not make sense in a PvP game to be able to do damage while being able to be consistently invulnerable.
 

As I said what a joke of a balance. 

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

It does not make sense in a PvP game to be able to do damage while being able to be consistently invulnerable.

meanwhile Fireweavers spam primordialstance and lavaskin while being invuln or while straightup spamming their evades...   Not saying that it is a good mechanic.... i think it is bad like he already said low risk high reward playstyle. But it is in the game and other professions can do stuff like that too.... why teef always gets all the hate?:C

Edited February 15, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Burial.1958]

2 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Yep that something usually Anet does, to nerf things it should not nerf instead tackling the main issue. Talking about one dodge's mirage for example or reducing the target cap per shade for scourge. 

I did not see any problems  with Vault+steal. Even the nerf to steal range (another disputable nerf) would have worked with Vault range as both are the same. 
Damage was nerfed all across the game so I see that fine, the skill still does plenty in WvW.  

Yet the dev team did not touch the evade on the skill when plenty of players told that was the low-risk high-reward mechanic they had an issue with. I personally find the perma-evade DD build very cheesy and it is aggravating that it can dish that damage while evading. It does not make sense in a PvP game to be able to do damage while being able to be consistently invulnerable.
 

As I said what a joke of a balance. 

 

Lol, so when the evade would be gone what defensive options would he have then with staff? 🤣 He would be a Freebag then. Every Ranger would kill him on a big range spamming Rapid Fire. He would also not have not any sustain in any situation. Because after 9 Years a player should know that thief can't eat dmg. DD Blossom spammer c'mon who play that? A troll maybe? Now why don't leave that troll then? He can only kill really bad players which would be bad even when they have Godmode. I simply don't fight with Trolling Builds because it is time waste. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Grebcol.5984

[Morena.9312]

2 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Yep that something usually Anet does, to nerf things it should not nerf instead tackling the main issue. Talking about one dodge's mirage for example or reducing the target cap per shade for scourge. 

I did not see any problems  with Vault+steal. Even the nerf to steal range (another disputable nerf) would have worked with Vault range as both are the same. 
Damage was nerfed all across the game so I see that fine, the skill still does plenty in WvW.  

Yet the dev team did not touch the evade on the skill when plenty of players told that was the low-risk high-reward mechanic they had an issue with. I personally find the perma-evade DD build very cheesy and it is aggravating that it can dish that damage while evading. It does not make sense in a PvP game to be able to do damage while being able to be consistently invulnerable.
 

As I said what a joke of a balance. 

So in your opinion SA, Stealth as well as Evade should be nerfed at the thief. Maybe his armor should be removed and a big target should be introduced with the name Freebag.

[Telgum.6071]

3 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

So after SA and D/P also Staff is OP then because of Evading. Oh man. I wrote that several pages ago that this arguments will come right after SA delete debate.  Than staff was nerfed because in the past u could vault + Steal. That is now impossible. Also dmg was nerfed.

I don't play thief anymore and I find tremendously stupid the amount of tears and moaning of this subforum on thieves. GW2 community will ask to nerf everything they don't like, seems like we all should be playing the braindead celestial builds.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

meanwhile Fireweavers spam primordialstance and lavaskin while being invuln or while straightup spamming their evades...   Not saying that it is a good mechanic.... i think it is bad like he already said low risk high reward playstyle. But it is in the game and other professions can do stuff like that too.... why teef always gets all the hate?:C

Funny, last time I checked Primordial Stance or Lava Skin don't have "evade" on their whole duration, must be something new added in last patch.
If you actually want to do some "comparision" for Ele, the closest you can get is: Burning Retreat, Fiery Whirl, Burning Speed, Earthen Rush and that's it.
You'll still end up with around 5k vs 17k, while Bounding Dodger can do something like 4k alone.

[Sahne.6950]

18 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Funny, last time I checked Primordial Stance or Lava Skin don't have "evade" on their whole duration, must be something new added in last patch.
If you actually want to do some "comparision" for Ele, the closest you can get is: Burning Retreat, Fiery Whirl, Burning Speed, Earthen Rush and that's it.
You'll still end up with around 5k vs 17k, while Bounding Dodger can do something like 4k alone.

are you for real? did i say that they have evadeframes?

They keep pulsing even when using your earth 5, Earth 2, Water2 or other evadeframes like ToF... All of these lets you pulse damage while being invuln/untargetable.... Do you really not see that or did you just try to be picky?

you can activate both primorstance and lavaskin and just YEET in 5 enemys while Invulnv or straight up spamming all of your evades.  Same concept as with the teef. You deal damage while you cant receive any.   

Edited February 16, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Caedmon.6798]

3 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I don't play thief anymore and I find tremendously stupid the amount of tears and moaning of this subforum on thieves. GW2 community will ask to nerf everything they don't like, seems like we all should be playing the braindead celestial builds.

 I remember the years of cries about warri's healsig which got a nerf after nerf after nef untill it got nerfed so hard that no one runs it anymore. The flow of tears does its work though it seems.

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I don't play thief anymore and I find tremendously stupid the amount of tears and moaning of this subforum on thieves. GW2 community will ask to nerf everything they don't like, seems like we all should be playing the braindead celestial builds.

Yea because 95% of the thieves running d/p SA on shortbow is not problematic....go buff other parts of thieves but make sure that SA gets toned downed due to how strong d/p is, its as simple as that.

[Simonoly.4352]

I truly love my Thief and all the irritating things I can do in WvW, but I must admit that Shadow Portal feels like a mistake. It's so easy to remain completely hidden in a keep as a Thief because it doesn't suffer from the same cool down pressures as Mesmer. Even with a target painter thingie, if people can't actually target you, it's a bit redundant. It does feel a little bit "have your cake and eat it" in terms of what limitless stealth access + Shadow Portal can provide in WvW.

I'm not sure what a solution would be though other than to completely change how Shadow Portal works. Maybe make it a utility shadow step so it can't be used to get over walls? Pfft probably a bit boring 🤷‍♂️

Edited February 15, 2022 by Simonoly.4352

[Caedmon.6798]

3 minutes ago, Simonoly.4352 said:

I truly love my Thief and all the irritating things I can do in WvW, but I must admit that Shadow Portal feels like a mistake. It's so easy to remain completely hidden in a keep as a Thief because it doesn't suffer from the same cool down pressures as Mesmer. Even with a target painter thingie, if people can't actually target you, it's a bit redundant. It does feel a little bit "have your cake and eat it" in terms of what limitless stealth access + Shadow Portal can provide in WvW.

I'm not sure what a solution would be though other than to completely change how Shadow Portal works. Maybe make it utility shadow step so it can't be used to get over walls? Pfft probably a bit boring 🤷‍♂️

When people forget how to focus a thief and unable to slot in  a reveal,sure.

But you still know how to say this

"Just get a Sic'em Soulbeast to machine gun it down"

But suddenly when theyre in a keep it doesnt apply anymore ?

Edited February 15, 2022 by Caedmon.6798

[Sobx.1758]

9 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I personally don't find Vault damage, cleave or range that aggravating, if I have to point out something it would be it does it while evading. 

Like I don't understand what are the devs thinking when they keep pushing this immunities while doing that burst damage in this class: Vault, Dagger_Storm or the traits Lotus_Training or Bounding_Dodger . Those are very toxic mechanics which only counterplay is to avoid combat with thief. 

...so still no response or explanation for the quoted claim then? (yes, I know it wasn't made by you, but your response here is still pretty much irrelevant to the claim made above)

9 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

They removed the random evade in ranger's GS autoattack chain because evades while doing damage yet this is enforced by Anet balance team. Like seriously what a joke. 

They didn't remove it "because it was an evade while doing damage", they removed it because it could be used to evade 3x more than it was -apparently- originally supposed to.