Perma Stealth Thiefs - What to do?

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Well when people like you make responses like this in the most passive aggressive way possible, can you blame these players for being so jaded that they rather see Thief gutted? I mean, I want to know. How many actual tools, not the wvw ones, Actual tools other classes have to fight back against a thief players? The only one I can think of at the top of my head is Reveal. But again, It's extremely limited, and it does nothing against a thief player who can teleport all over the place and outrun you, Let alone being able to remove Reveal as a dead eye. And most class doesn't have nearly the mobility to catch a thief, so chasing one is pointless. YET, a thief will continually harass you to no end because they feel like it, and there is nothing you can do about it, other than hoping you have the extremely rare chance of catching a thief. Any other classes is at a severe disadvantage here, cause chasing is pointless, they die in one hit, and they can easily escape whenever you DO End up catching him, and you can't easily run away either because a thief can catch up with you to continue their harassment. Your only option is to run to a tower, to a zerg, or in a keep, or use the painter. Otherwise, you're fighting a nearly hopeless battle of hunter and prey. Does that sound balance to you? No, scratch that. Does that sound fun to fight against?

But it's easier to defend thieves to the grave, ignore any of the argument made on how thief is overtuned and needs balance. It does need balance. and tell players like us that we're morons for not using wvw mechanics, when we shouldn't need it in the first place if thief was balanced. "Oh we are crying on the forums, we're bad players, we don't know how thieves work. We shouldn't be wasting our time "Crying" On the forums." Like it discredit our very valid criticism. It doesn't, just shows how immature you guys are being.

Telling us our argument are strawman at best, without ever backing it up, while at the same time, you throw suggestions that sums up as "Swing your sword blindly and hope they die from it." Or other nonsense as that. I just want more counterplay options for invisibility and their mobility in wvw, THAT isn't using wvw mechanics. Thief is easier to deal with in Structured pvp because at the very least their cowardly ways would result in you taking the point. But there's no point to deal with in wvw, at the least, points that would cost your team a win.
 

Have fun I guess. Don't think your silly emote and flexing is impressing anyone. For all I know, you could very much lying out your kitten about fighting a thief. If I could see an unedited gameplay of someone consistently beating a thief? I'll put the money where my mouth is.

Quit the drama, or truncate at least. Someone points out bad takes that get classes needlessly nerfed and you're going to try to guilt trip them for that? Get real, and stop being wrong please.

Edited February 10, 2022 by kash.9213

[Morena.9312]

1 hour ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Well when people like you make responses like this in the most passive aggressive way possible, can you blame these players for being so jaded that they rather see Thief gutted? I mean, I want to know. How many actual tools, not the wvw ones, Actual tools other classes have to fight back against a thief players? The only one I can think of at the top of my head is Reveal. But again, It's extremely limited, and it does nothing against a thief player who can teleport all over the place and outrun you, Let alone being able to remove Reveal as a dead eye. And most class doesn't have nearly the mobility to catch a thief, so chasing one is pointless. YET, a thief will continually harass you to no end because they feel like it, and there is nothing you can do about it, other than hoping you have the extremely rare chance of catching a thief. Any other classes is at a severe disadvantage here, cause chasing is pointless, they die in one hit, and they can easily escape whenever you DO End up catching him, and you can't easily run away either because a thief can catch up with you to continue their harassment. Your only option is to run to a tower, to a zerg, or in a keep, or use the painter. Otherwise, you're fighting a nearly hopeless battle of hunter and prey. Does that sound balance to you? No, scratch that. Does that sound fun to fight against?

But it's easier to defend thieves to the grave, ignore any of the argument made on how thief is overtuned and needs balance. It does need balance. and tell players like us that we're morons for not using wvw mechanics, when we shouldn't need it in the first place if thief was balanced. "Oh we are crying on the forums, we're bad players, we don't know how thieves work. We shouldn't be wasting our time "Crying" On the forums." Like it discredit our very valid criticism. It doesn't, just shows how immature you guys are being.

Telling us our argument are strawman at best, without ever backing it up, while at the same time, you throw suggestions that sums up as "Swing your sword blindly and hope they die from it." Or other nonsense as that. I just want more counterplay options for invisibility and their mobility in wvw, THAT isn't using wvw mechanics. Thief is easier to deal with in Structured pvp because at the very least their cowardly ways would result in you taking the point. But there's no point to deal with in wvw, at the least, points that would cost your team a win.
 

Have fun I guess. Don't think your silly emote and flexing is impressing anyone. For all I know, you could very much lying out your kitten about fighting a thief. If I could see an unedited gameplay of someone consistently beating a thief? I'll put the money where my mouth is.

 All i see is a big drama. Get over it. It is still a game. 😘 And everyone knows that WvWvW is a unbalanced sandbox mode and that since nearly 10 years. 🤪. Now you have the peoples like me who simply do not care about that fact or peoples like you which waste several hours in complaining. That mighty "perfect Balance" will never be achieved.

 

good night 😉

Edited February 10, 2022 by Carmela.8756

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

49 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Quit the drama, or truncate at least. Someone points out bad takes that get classes needlessly nerfed and you're going to try to quilt trip them for that? Get real, and stop being wrong please.

 

31 minutes ago, Carmela.8756 said:

 All i see is a big drama. Get over it. It is still a game. 😘 And everyone knows that WvWvW is a unbalanced sandbox mode and that since nearly 10 years. 🤪. Now you have the peoples like me who simply do not care about that fact or peoples like you which waste several hours in complaining. That mighty "perfect Balance" will never be achieved.

 

good night 😉

I'm not making drama Yfi. I'm just pointing out the issues Thief have, and calling out any thief players who gets offended whenever someone want to see some adjustment. And really, that's all I want. I want to see thief get adjusted, and to see more and better counterplays for other classes. I'm not asking to see thief be in the state that Harbinger was in during the 4th beta. If anything, you guys are bringing out the pointless drama and gaslighting anyone who thinks thief is overtuned slightly. I'm trying to be civil at least and trying to explain why I feel thieves is overpowered. And I did. Me, and other people have provided counters to your argument. I'm just looking for a middle ground at the end of the day, cause lets be real. Someone got to do it, and Thieves sure as hell isn't going to look for a compromise. It's easier to tell players that it's a l2p problem for not using a wvw mechanic that has nothing to do with player skill and insulting them about it.

Yeah, Wvw isn't balanced around small scale and 1v1, and it won't have a perfect balance at all. But that's no excuse to not try at the very least.

And really, if you didn't care for this thread at all, why did you post in it at all?

Edited February 10, 2022 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[Sobx.1758]

11 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

1. Some time ago I also shared how I would redesign Stealth (thiefs, smoke) and invisibility(mesmer/engie) so both mechanics are different and provide a self-regulated balancing mechanic:

   1. Stealth from shadow magic makes the user partially visible or transparent  ( it could a similar way as you see your own character while stealthed ) to enemies within a radius from the stealthed user. The thief may not be directly targeteable but enemies could "see" it if searching for it while being within a radius from the thief (for example 600 units) . Because the model would be transparent or translucid even when under this effect the user would not be  easily spotted unless actively looking for it. 
      This would change also blasting smoke and Druid stealth. A trait could reduce that radius to 300 units so Thieves will have always the better mechanic and upperhand over other sources. 

   2. Invisibility from illusion magic makes the user invisible to all enemies within a radius from the user. Which means enemies farther than X units from the user will be able to target and see them (for example 600 units) . Engineer and Runes could use this effect too. Mesmers could have a trait to extend this radius to 900 so the class would have the better version of this if traited. 

   3. Camouflage would not be affected by this, the user would be invisible at all distances. 

For me this would be the best PvP approach to this mechanic.  From a development perspective the change is done such the objects are calculated by using the radius around the player using the invisibility, so when an enemy trigger the AoE the effects are cast ( from invisible to translucid /  from visible to invisible) for that specific enemy so it should not be taxing.

This idea is as worthless now as it was multiple times you've posted it before. Stealth without posibility to move is absolutely useless and the only ""value"" your idea gives to it just promotes stupid playstyles of sitting in one place waiting for an oblivious opponent that has no way to say you're there. It's not a rework, it's a removal at best.

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/81373-stealth-rework/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-1247229

btw. remember when you've said "The objective of this changes is to stop with the low skill gameplay the thief has", while all this change promotes is... standing indefinitely in the same place waiting for a player to come by so you can burst them down? Your proposed changes and proclaimed intended results aren't exactly compatible.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[kash.9213]

35 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

 

I'm not making drama Yfi. I'm just pointing out the issues Thief have, and calling out any thief players who gets offended whenever someone want to see some adjustment. And really, that's all I want. I want to see thief get adjusted, and to see more and better counterplays for other classes. I'm not asking to see thief be in the state that Harbinger was in during the 4th beta. If anything, you guys are bringing out the pointless drama and gaslighting anyone who thinks thief is overtuned slightly. I'm trying to be civil at least and trying to explain why I feel thieves is overpowered. And I did. Me, and other people have provided counters to your argument. I'm just looking for a middle ground at the end of the day, cause lets be real. Someone got to do it, and Thieves sure as hell isn't going to look for a compromise. It's easier to tell players that it's a l2p problem for not using a wvw mechanic that has nothing to do with player skill and insulting them about it.

Yeah, Wvw isn't balanced around small scale and 1v1, and it won't have a perfect balance at all. But that's no excuse to not try at the very least.

And really, if you didn't care for this thread at all, why did you post in it at all?

It's normally the thieves in these threads who offer up realistic suggestions to adjust things but they're as ignored as the thief forums by the devs. So again, please stop being wrong.

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

It does make alot of sense because 90% are Blob Builds who think they can chase and gank me. There are several Builds on other classes with alot of mobility when you use it right. With that they have "jail cards" too (and with the new Expac alot Classes get more mobility!)  but as i said most people think they can manage the whole WvWvW with 1 Build from Meta Battle.

 

C'mon now you have Mounts (Edit:Mobility!)/Reveal from Guards and Towers + Reveal Skills and some Traps. And still peoples are complaining. Because they are mostly stupid and fight a thief (with Blob Build) not near a tower or guard = Zero map awareness. AND There is simply no right for a free bag. When the enemy disengage i really do not care at all.  Thief is unique because he is all about improvisation and movement due his mechanic.

First off when you are in combat you cannot mount something in which thieves are able to get out of combat and mount just like anyone else. 

WvW isn't just about blob there is roaming and small fight skirmishes in which thieves excel, as well as being able to gank stragglers.

No NOT every class have get out of jail cards as often and as fast as thieves do, the excuse of initiatives is a poor one, resource management is ALWAYS easier then hard long cooldowns in which most class's jail free cards have a CD of 35 sec upwards.

Fact that reveal means nothing to for example deadeye is a problem to that spec itself. Even if a thief is revealed they are already out of combat on their mount and be on their happy way. 

There is no improvisation and movement, its simple leap combo into smoke field stealth then shortbow 5 or shadowstep out of combat onto mount. Its a no brainer.

Compared to ANY other class that gets punished for making mistakes thieves are in the lower end of being punished for mistakes.

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

It's normally the thieves in these threads who offer up realistic suggestions to adjust things but they're as ignored as the thief forums by the devs. So again, please stop being wrong.

Adjustments would be a give or take situation not just asking for buffs and not seeing the problematic area side of things namely SA traitline. Its fine to ask for buffs on other traitlines but being able to continue to keep SA the way it is while asking for buffs in other areas is not realistic.

[Burial.1958]

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

Quit the drama, or truncate at least. Someone points out bad takes that get classes needlessly nerfed and you're going to try to guilt trip them for that? Get real, and stop being wrong please.

 I mean when got we one Patch with any Buffs? I made a break between 2017-2020. When i came back i saw only nerfs. F1 was nerfed (daredevil), reveal introduced, Staff Gutted (f1 + vault don't go anymore) and so on.  But the kitten pathing is still there and complete garbage Weaponsets and Traits (300s wtf?) & traitlines. But nobody cares the only what they want is that the thief will be a Freebag without any defense ability outside of moving around like a wasp.  So i can understand that some thief players get really mad about it.

 

Then there are alot of thiefs who made good suggestions for making the Traitlines better and making SA less important but nothing happend.

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 I mean when got we one Patch with any Buffs? I made a break between 2017-2020. When i came back i saw only nerfs. F1 was nerfed (daredevil), reveal introduced, Staff Gutted (f1 + vault don't go anymore) and so on.  But the kitten pathing is still there and complete garbage Weaponsets and Traits (300s wtf?) & traitlines. But nobody cares the only what they want is that the thief will be a Freebag without any defense ability outside of moving around like a wasp.  So i can understand that some thief players get really mad about it.

 

Then there are alot of thiefs who made good suggestions for making the Traitlines better and making SA less important but nothing happend.

Perhaps if you read the whole patch thieves werent the only ones that got nerfed. 

Its funny you know those who are spamming confused emotes are thief mains that wont acknowledge that being able to stealth on demand + mobility is problematic. 

Probably the same people who think thieves r too weak and need buffs, I've read how stupid some of the suggestions were namely the acrobatics traitline. Get real, asking for other traitline buffs and keeping SA the way it is lol.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

20 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

It's normally the thieves in these threads who offer up realistic suggestions to adjust things but they're as ignored as the thief forums by the devs. So again, please stop being wrong.

The way I've seen thieves act in this forum, and ingame insulting and gaslighting anyone who is concerned about thief? You could have fooled me. Again, This level of hatred people have for thieves didn't come from no where. They're just too jaded with wvw and thief to even care anymore.
 

 

13 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Its funny you know those who are spamming confused emotes are thief mains that wont acknowledge that being able to stealth on demand + mobility is problematic. 

3 of the same people might I add. Cause lets be real. Most people who said their piece left, even Op. There's nothing left to discuss at this point, and we're just arguing with brick walls.

[Burial.1958]

16 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Perhaps if you read the whole patch thieves werent the only ones that got nerfed. 

Its funny you know those who are spamming confused emotes are thief mains that wont acknowledge that being able to stealth on demand + mobility is problematic. 

Probably the same people who think thieves r too weak and need buffs, I've read how stupid some of the suggestions were namely the acrobatics traitline. Get real, asking for other traitline buffs and keeping SA the way it is lol.

  

Those Suggestion where made for nerfing SA and make it less mandatory. You can't nerf a whole traitline when other traitlines are complete busted and give nothing in return, get real. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, Grebcol.5984 said:

  

Those Suggestion where made for nerfing SA and make it less mandatory. You can't nerf a whole traitline when other traitlines are complete busted and give nothing in return, get real. 

Any who suggest SA get nerf are immediately shut down namely people like you are right now. Talking about SA nerfs is a taboo for you thief mains for some reason.

I don't mind thieves getting a buff, sword thieves were always my personal favorite fight and to use, that requires more brain thought and positioning then d/p shortbow SA.

Fact that thieves ignore how stupid SA is while asking for buffs on other traitline hoping they will keep SA the way it is, thats call greed.

In which case get in line because EVERY class is asking for buffs and some of those classes actually need it namely warriors, ele, and mesmers.

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Any who suggest SA get nerf are immediately shut down namely people like you are right now. Talking about SA nerfs is a taboo for you thief mains for some reason.

I don't mind thieves getting a buff, sword thieves were always my personal favorite fight and to use, that requires more brain thought and positioning then d/p shortbow SA.

Fact that thieves ignore how stupid SA is while asking for buffs on other traitline hoping they will keep SA the way it is, thats call greed.

In which case get in line because EVERY class is asking for buffs and some of those classes actually need it namely warriors, ele, and mesmers.

Tbh I'm a little lost right now, how is "some players want their class buffed!" relevant to this thread or people pointing out some of the proposed changes would render the mechanic useless instead of balancing it?

Edited February 10, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[saerni.2584]

4 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Any who suggest SA get nerf are immediately shut down namely people like you are right now. Talking about SA nerfs is a taboo for you thief mains for some reason.

I don't mind thieves getting a buff, sword thieves were always my personal favorite fight and to use, that requires more brain thought and positioning then d/p shortbow SA.

Fact that thieves ignore how stupid SA is while asking for buffs on other traitline hoping they will keep SA the way it is, thats call greed.

In which case get in line because EVERY class is asking for buffs and some of those classes actually need it namely warriors, ele, and mesmers.

If you browse the thief forums you'll see a number of suggestions for balance that include nerfs to SA. 

 

For example:
 

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

If you browse the thief forums you'll see a number of suggestions for balance that include nerfs to SA. 

 

For example:
 

 

You really want to revisit that thread and look at the "nerfs to SA" is, and if you dont want to read the whole thing a suggestion is use CTRL + F and search up Shadow Arts. These aren't nerfs or tradeoffs and if they are addressing nerfs it isn't addressing the problematic aspects of it.

[Salt Mode.3780]

6 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Tbh I'm a little lost right now, how is "some players want their class buffed!" relevant in this thread or people pointing out some of the proposed changes would render the mechanic useless instead of balancing it?

Im sorry I dont think that part of my post was the main point. So while you are a little lost im completely lost why you ignored and omit the main focus of the post. Again diverting the main subject.

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Im sorry I dont think that part of my post was the main point. So while you are a little lost im completely lost why you ignored and omit the main focus of the post. Again diverting the main subject.

So not relevant at all, that's what I thought, thanks.

[Burial.1958]

15 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Any who suggest SA get nerf are immediately shut down namely people like you are right now. Talking about SA nerfs is a taboo for you thief mains for some reason.

I don't mind thieves getting a buff, sword thieves were always my personal favorite fight and to use, that requires more brain thought and positioning then d/p shortbow SA.

Fact that thieves ignore how stupid SA is while asking for buffs on other traitline hoping they will keep SA the way it is, thats call greed.

In which case get in line because EVERY class is asking for buffs and some of those classes actually need it namely warriors, ele, and mesmers.

 And that is because everyone cry for Nerfs but wont give any good suggestion for giving a return. We have Traitlines which are garbage and riddled with a 300s Trait. We have garbage Weaponsets. And Because Teapot and Helseth & ROM said it in a stream everyone jumps on the SA Train (None of them is a Thief main).  No one also talks about Trickery. Mostly every thief runs it too and for some builds it is even more mandatory than SA. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Grebcol.5984

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

So not relevant at all, that's what I thought, thanks.

And your comments are like this one??? kitten you are on a rollllll.......

[saerni.2584]

3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

You really want to revisit that thread and look at the "nerfs to SA" is, and if you dont want to read the whole thing a suggestion is use CTRL + F and search up Shadow Arts. These aren't nerfs or tradeoffs and if they are addressing nerfs it isn't addressing the problematic aspects of it.

Im saying you lack the expertise to holistically balance Thief. That thread represents looking at SA, taking the problematic parts out and, yes, buffing other aspects of thief to compensate and improve the balance.

 

The suggestions in this thread are unimplementable, unbalanced, not well thought through, and often self-contradictory. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 And that is because everyone cry for Nerfs but wont give any good suggestion for giving a return. We have Traitlines which are garbage and riddled with a 300s Trait. We have garbage Weaponsets. And Because Teapot and Helseth & ROM said it in a stream everyone jumps on the SA Train (None of them is a Thief main).  No one also talks about Trickery. Mostly every thief runs it too and for some builds it is even more mandatory than SA. 

How is that new to thieves exclusively, everyone always asks for nerfs without any good suggestions that is just the forum. Fact is playing the class and not acknowledging the problems yourself is the bigger issue. Thieves are not the only class that have the 300s trait bullcrap every class does. Its not that ALL the weapon set for thieves is garbage its overshadowed by how strong d/p is again denying the fact.

Over the years kitten like sword on thieves have been nerfed or even the viability of staff, but even then those pale in comparison to the value d/p gives thieves and thats just the fact.

[Salt Mode.3780]

4 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

Im saying you lack the expertise to holistically balance Thief. That thread represents looking at SA, taking the problematic parts out and, yes, buffing other aspects of thief to compensate and improve the balance.

 

The suggestions in this thread are unimplementable, unbalanced, not well thought through, and often self-contradictory. 

No I dont think I lack the expertise on knowing that SA D/P is currently outshining every build thieves have in competitive play because that is all you encounter in competitive play. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Sobx.1758]

38 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

And your comments are like this one??? kitten you are on a rollllll.......

No problem, let me explain:

@Grebcol.5984wrote: "Then there are alot of thiefs who made good suggestions for making the Traitlines better and making SA less important but nothing happend."

Which is very obviously talking about some of the propositions about nering SA (which ones, to what extend? Doesn't really matter right now, it's still clear what he's mentioning here are the proposed nerfs to SA to make it weaker/less important in the class builds).

That's the quote to which you've started responding with things like:

"Its funny you know those who are spamming confused emotes are thief mains that wont acknowledge that being able to stealth on demand + mobility is problematic. 

Probably the same people who think thieves r too weak and need buffs, I've read how stupid some of the suggestions were namely the acrobatics traitline. Get real, asking for other traitline buffs and keeping SA the way it is lol."

or

"Any who suggest SA get nerf are immediately shut down namely people like you are right now. Talking about SA nerfs is a taboo for you thief mains for some reason."  and "Fact that thieves ignore how stupid SA is while asking for buffs on other traitline hoping they will keep SA the way it is, thats call greed. "

 

So "diverting the main subject" isn't something I've started doing. I'm just pointing out that's exactly what you've did. Apparently @Grebcol.5984 mentioning some ideas for rebalance/nerf doesn't matter "because some other players ask for buffs!"  🤦‍♂️

 

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, since obviously I could have easly missed something important in this great thread, but you've just confirmed that you're going for a strawman in an attempt to pretend that no good balance ideas exist "since some people want buffs". Hope that's clear enough, but don't hesitate to ask if you're still missing the point here.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Burial.1958]

1 minute ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

How is that new to thieves exclusively, everyone always asks for nerfs without any good suggestions that is just the forum. Fact is playing the class and not acknowledging the problems yourself is the bigger issue. Thieves are not the only class that have the 300s trait bullcrap every class does. Its not that ALL the weapon set for thieves is garbage its overshadowed by how strong d/p is again denying the fact.

Over the years kitten like sword on thieves have been nerfed or even the viability of staff, but even then those pale in comparison to the value d/p gives thieves and thats just the fact.

 

Dude go Online make a Thief and play for 1 Week with D/D or S/P and tell me then how it was. Lul

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

17 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

If you browse the thief forums you'll see a number of suggestions for balance that include nerfs to SA. 

 

For example:

I took a look, and personally I'm glad you realize that Perma stealth needs to be toned down. I don't think I was asking for much. It just needs to be adjusted, Not gutted. I don't care about anything else. The damage they deal, their evades, Whatever. All I want to see is Perma stealth not being viable, alongside some much needed counter plays that doesn't revolve around wvw mechanics. So Thank you for being reasonable.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267