Thief's Job in SPVP??

[Ragnarvor.2351]

Hello. I understand maybe Thief should try capping sides, decapping and plus 1 in fights. I'm using a beginner build that I found on youtube and I try to do this. In some games people talk trash basically blaming me if we lose. I can 1v1 many classes but some I can't. But then I think maybe I'm not supposed to 1v1 I should stealth and focus on capping etc. Sometimes I go help mid (for fun) and people yell at me about that lol. I can't win. 

Anyway, is there a guide anyone would advise I check out. The bracket I'm in right now is silver so I am like at a 50% win rate but I want to feel more impactful and helpful for the team.  

[saerni.2584]

35 minutes ago, Ragnarvor.2351 said:

Hello. I understand maybe Thief should try capping sides, decapping and plus 1 in fights. I'm using a beginner build that I found on youtube and I try to do this. In some games people talk trash basically blaming me if we lose. I can 1v1 many classes but some I can't. But then I think maybe I'm not supposed to 1v1 I should stealth and focus on capping etc. Sometimes I go help mid (for fun) and people yell at me about that lol. I can't win. 

Anyway, is there a guide anyone would advise I check out. The bracket I'm in right now is silver so I am like at a 50% win rate but I want to feel more impactful and helpful for the team.  

Well the short answer to part of what you said is...you can't win because people will always blame the thief to cover their own shortcomings. 
 

The longer answer is that you need to focus both on your mechanical skills (reaction time, execution of skills and combos, decisions in a fight) and your map awareness (sometimes called rotational skill). The latter meaning you are constantly checking the map and then making the best possible moved based on what you see. 

In a fight you also need to decide who to target. You can choose the enemy's lowest HP person. Or you can choose a high damage target to get their focus off of one of your team's people. Or you can focus their healer to break the sustain of their team. It depends on a lot of different factors that can change at a moments notice. Sometimes people actually call targets but half of the time those calls can be wrong. Learn which ones are the right ones and don't just blindly trust the target call someone made is the right one (even so don't totally ignore them as even a relatively bad call, if followed, may work out well enough).
 

In terms of rotation you need to keep an eye out for openings to decap. You also need to watch for +1s you can take. Some +1s are bad ideas because that player is actually stalling multiple people and you are better off helping your mid fighters 4v3. Going into team fights isn't bad as long as you treat it as an opportunity to +1 and then decap or +1 elsewhere. The longer you try to sustain a team fight the fewer escape options (cooldowns) you will have and you become more and more a free kill. How long you sustain in a team fight is a matter also of skill, so in silver you may want to focus more on decap and helping +1 your team's defenders on a node. 

 

[ASP.8093]

I think you've already got the big idea.

Most likely, the main way you can improve a bit is to fine-tune how you prioritize caps/decaps, +1s, and duels (generally you don't want to take many duels against dedicated duelist type builds but it's not that uncommon to catch another roamer or a DPS alone on node).

IMO, the main thing here is, like, opportunity cost: as you're capping or +1ing, you're still occupying one of 5 team slots, so that means there's a possibility your team is outnumbered elsewhere. To minimize that and get the most value, you want to do things that will:

1. Help your team get kills — When your side wins a team fight or gets some kills, that means you're playing 5v4 or 5v3 for a while and you've go the freedom to use your thief mobility to "clean up the map" a little bit without worrying about whether the rest of your team can take the outnumbered pressure.

2. Waste enemies' time — Anyone who's having to run around or stand around to undo the damage you've already done is basically fighting a past version of you while you're free to +1 in the present. (Think about why decapping is useful: removing an enemy's ownership of a node is faster than moving it from neutral to friendly, so it's like you're spending 15 seconds of your time to "steal" 30 seconds of theirs. Whereas a full cap takes more time from you but puts more pressure on them to act quickly to stop the score progression.)

3. Save teammates' time — And to be honest I think +1ing is more about winning already-favored fights quickly than it is about turning problem fights around. (You're fast, you can dump everything you've got into a burst, you can rip down a lot of defenses pretty effectively, you can secure stomps better than most other classes; all of that makes you good at upsetting the "equilibrium" of a fight, as long as you've got some targets who are already pressured, overextended, or out of cooldowns.) A lot of objective play is also about this, imo: it's much faster for you to just teleport up to the buffs in the Colosseum than it is for someone else to run all the way up those stairs, for example.

That's exactly the same "decap, get kills, +1" strategy you're already following, just a slightly different way of thinking about priorities. IME your goal is to use mobility and surprise to create snowball situations or "virtual" snowball situations (where you're not actually up a kill but the enemy is spread too thin to counter your team well) as much as possible. And that, in turn, advances the map and the scoreboard favorably for your team.

Edited January 28, 2022 by ASP.8093

[Ragnarvor.2351]

Wow thanks this actually has helped me a lot

[Alcatraznc.3869]

You abuse your mobility to move around and contest cap, preferably the far and mid cap. Focus on decaping and gank on low HP target. Always assume your team is going to fail downing and killing someone so if you can down someone do it and finish him fast. 

 

There are some 1 v 1 engagement you can afford to take but if you're getting outnumbered and cant hold a cap, then just leave. . As long as your wasting the time of other and decapping/capping if possible, you're already doing good. And the rest is just adapting to the current situation. 

[Sylvia.4870]

On 1/28/2022 at 2:23 AM, Ragnarvor.2351 said:

Hello. I understand maybe Thief should try capping sides, decapping and plus 1 in fights. I'm using a beginner build that I found on youtube and I try to do this. In some games people talk trash basically blaming me if we lose. I can 1v1 many classes but some I can't. But then I think maybe I'm not supposed to 1v1 I should stealth and focus on capping etc. Sometimes I go help mid (for fun) and people yell at me about that lol. I can't win. 

Anyway, is there a guide anyone would advise I check out. The bracket I'm in right now is silver so I am like at a 50% win rate but I want to feel more impactful and helpful for the team.  

 Don't pay attention to those who speak ill-words to you. Focus on what you must do or should do. Improve your combat capacity step by step. Assist teammates to take down their foes if it is needed.  Avoid unwinnable fights.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Sylvia.4870

[Caedmon.6798]

If you realize early on you cant win the fight,just move off to another point. It also doesnt hurt to help in teamfights aswell when the rest of the nodes are occupied too.

[Puck.3697]

So i thought i'd play a thief for a first time and see how alive this Mentality actually is, and kitten its worse then i thought it'd actually be.

Had a team, both necros ignored taking close at the beginning of game, so i had to take it (Generally thief doesnt go Close over a Necro would lol) 1v1'd the enemy thief Killed the thief (wasnt much choice there in the situation) all 4 of them Flopped down 4v3 in a Teamfight and i got Chased by 4.

Immediately, 1 minuteinto the game, "Our thief sucks No Decap". 1 minute into a game.  So i ask how do u physically expect me to decap in such a Situation. and tyhey just repeated "Decap". The team have no idea How i should of done things. they just know how to parrot Decap at me. ignoring the fact i was sat on a Map 1v5 while were all Down not killing a Single Enemy so they were just charging forward in Multiples at the other points to capture.

On the Revive i decapped Far, Capped Close they Died in Mid once again, meaning the enemy thief had run close to start recapping, 4 others all charged Close so i decapped Mid.

now Im no pro thief xD, but if ur Team are Permanantly Dead, the Teamfights Permanantly lost, u arent winning a game off the back of a Thief Decapping in that predicament, People seem to have a strong belief that somehow a Thief decapping properly Should rectify this situation immediately and hand over a win. the emphasis on the "Thiefs role" seems insanely Exaggerated currently, its strong. but it aint gonna Single handerly win the game while ur team sit in base.

in all honesty. People who blame you i'd consider ignoring unless the critism handed is Constructive and from a Source you trust judging by how alot of these Players seem to be around the Thief, they Assume ur a free Carry to a win but ignore in most situations the Enemy also have a thief so even if the roles overpowered. its Equlised effectively.

as a Single player, providing ur Decapping Nodes regularly when its possible. Not getting caught up in long 1v1s, and Not just ignoring the Map ur generally going to be Impactful. and even if people scream at you for being mid, there are times where a thief should be in the teamfight, its Just important to know when to leave. its very common for a thief to run immediately Mid with the, Focus target the Squishiest one and then Leave far to Decap afterwards Once ur team have now outnumbered the Enemy.

as directly going far means ur running into their duellist and its no value at all to sit around as u wont decap the enemy player. u effectively want to decap Far when the Enemy leaves the Point.. to create a Requirement for their duellist to stand AFK on their close to stop you decapping it to create the situation where ur team can Force the upperhand in the teamfight. or if u have a Duellist, wait for the Duelist to engage on far then +1 the fight to give your Duellist the Node.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

A thief's job in pvp is being OP.

 

[saerni.2584]

On 1/31/2022 at 10:30 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

So i thought i'd play a thief for a first time and see how alive this Mentality actually is, and kitten its worse then i thought it'd actually be.

Had a team, both necros ignored taking close at the beginning of game, so i had to take it (Generally thief doesnt go Close over a Necro would lol) 1v1'd the enemy thief Killed the thief (wasnt much choice there in the situation) all 4 of them Flopped down 4v3 in a Teamfight and i got Chased by 4.

Immediately, 1 minuteinto the game, "Our thief sucks No Decap". 1 minute into a game.  So i ask how do u physically expect me to decap in such a Situation. and tyhey just repeated "Decap". The team have no idea How i should of done things. they just know how to parrot Decap at me. ignoring the fact i was sat on a Map 1v5 while were all Down not killing a Single Enemy so they were just charging forward in Multiples at the other points to capture.

On the Revive i decapped Far, Capped Close they Died in Mid once again, meaning the enemy thief had run close to start recapping, 4 others all charged Close so i decapped Mid.

now Im no pro thief xD, but if ur Team are Permanantly Dead, the Teamfights Permanantly lost, u arent winning a game off the back of a Thief Decapping in that predicament, People seem to have a strong belief that somehow a Thief decapping properly Should rectify this situation immediately and hand over a win. the emphasis on the "Thiefs role" seems insanely Exaggerated currently, its strong. but it aint gonna Single handerly win the game while ur team sit in base.

in all honesty. People who blame you i'd consider ignoring unless the critism handed is Constructive and from a Source you trust judging by how alot of these Players seem to be around the Thief, they Assume ur a free Carry to a win but ignore in most situations the Enemy also have a thief so even if the roles overpowered. its Equlised effectively.

as a Single player, providing ur Decapping Nodes regularly when its possible. Not getting caught up in long 1v1s, and Not just ignoring the Map ur generally going to be Impactful. and even if people scream at you for being mid, there are times where a thief should be in the teamfight, its Just important to know when to leave. its very common for a thief to run immediately Mid with the, Focus target the Squishiest one and then Leave far to Decap afterwards Once ur team have now outnumbered the Enemy.

as directly going far means ur running into their duellist and its no value at all to sit around as u wont decap the enemy player. u effectively want to decap Far when the Enemy leaves the Point.. to create a Requirement for their duellist to stand AFK on their close to stop you decapping it to create the situation where ur team can Force the upperhand in the teamfight. or if u have a Duellist, wait for the Duelist to engage on far then +1 the fight to give your Duellist the Node.

 

 

I was once asked to decap home while I had literally just decapped far. My brief response in chat was to ask how they expected me to be in two places at the same time. 

[felix.2386]

thief's only role is to learn proper map rotation and targeting, which 95% of the current pvp thieves have no idea what that is.

most players now are ok in fighting/dodging, but have no idea what is rotating and targeting. it would be fine if its other classes.

but thief, u can suck at fighting, but u need to know rotating and targeting..it would bring you farther.

which differs top25 thief to gold tier  braindead thief.

 

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, saerni.2584 said:

I was once asked to decap home while I had literally just decapped far. My brief response in chat was to ask how they expected me to be in two places at the same time. 

Thieves defintly get a bad rap generally because how impactful they can be when played properly. Sometimes teams do need to remember their doing no better realistically. 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

36 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

which differs top25 thief to gold tier  braindead thief

Tbh, that goes for every proffession tho really. 

Most players beneath plat are pretty mechanically bad and rarely where their susposed to be. 

[ixon.2496]

On 1/31/2022 at 3:30 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

all 4 of them Flopped down 4v3 in a Teamfight and i got Chased by 4.

Immediately, 1 minuteinto the game, "Our thief sucks No Decap". 1 minute into a game. 

 

 

 Exact same situation today, i've played since launch and mained thief for about 90% of my time in PvP.  I cap close, run and decap far. Whole team wipes in mid. I have to leave far as a LB ranger and Mesmer chase me and a Engi bunkering on Mid. Whole team goes to defend close for a 4v2. Wasting a good 3 minutes while i can't decap due to pressure from the other 3 enemies. 

 

Who gets called a bot, me. Then spam targeted by my own teammate. Who proceeds to afk on the buff. 

 

I've carried games with decap, even if its still a loss. But the mentality and lack of awareness is just mind blowing.

Edited February 5, 2022 by ixon.2496

[saerni.2584]

On 2/5/2022 at 1:31 PM, ixon.2496 said:

 Exact same situation today, i've played since launch and mained thief for about 90% of my time in PvP.  I cap close, run and decap far. Whole team wipes in mid. I have to leave far as a LB ranger and Mesmer chase me and a Engi bunkering on Mid. Whole team goes to defend close for a 4v2. Wasting a good 3 minutes while i can't decap due to pressure from the other 3 enemies. 

 

Who gets called a bot, me. Then spam targeted by my own teammate. Who proceeds to afk on the buff. 

 

I've carried games with decap, even if its still a loss. But the mentality and lack of awareness is just mind blowing.

To be fair, if their home capper went mid then your team was 4v5 at mid. Assuming someone on your team was low that extra person can tip the scales hard and snowball into a hard wipe. 
 

That said, if your entire team was partially wiped before you finished capping home and you had to rotate far to decap because joining mid was futile...I don't see how anyone could reasonably blame you for that situation. 
 

I think teams should really focus more (over complaining a thief is 'bad') on figuring out who is their biggest threat/problem and then asking the thief/roamer to +1 target that person first. If a team doesn't want the thief to just decap it helps to direct them to a target. If I have to spend precious time figuring it out (staying in a team fight) then that is more time for them to force me to disengage and less time for me to focus on map control (decap). Sure, I can probably figure it out as an experienced player but not every thief will be in that headspace (especially since people have drilled "decap" into their brains as the only role for thief in conquest).

[ixon.2496]

31 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

That said, if your entire team was partially wiped before you finished capping home and you had to rotate far to decap because joining mid was futile...I don't see how anyone could reasonably blame you for that situation. 
 

 

 

They had already lost 2 on the mid fight so it was 5 v 2.  After the enemy won, 2 of them went to close, one sat on mid, while i was decapping far two came after me. The rest of my team respawns and goes straight to close, 4 v 2. And even then they struggled, zero focus on targets (the usual) wasting 3 minute on close . And its situations like this that come up so often. 

 

Your teams decisions during a match have such an impact on how you can play, even making it impossible to carry. 

 

Sure i can join them at close, but at that point our full team fighting 2 bunkers at the one point is just a huge loss of points and time.

[ASP.8093]

On 1/31/2022 at 10:30 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

Immediately, 1 minuteinto the game, "Our thief sucks No Decap". 1 minute into a game.

The people who spend their whole time in the game running into the same team fight often have a really bad sense of how the rest of the map works. (While expecting you to win it for them.) Which honestly wouldn't be the end of the world, except those same cap/decap obsessed players tend to also lose team fights by prioritizing "fighting on point" so much that they're just repeatedly dying on point when they should be repositioning out a bit.

[DoomNexus.5324]

I've described my view on the role like this:  

On 2/15/2022 at 11:48 PM, DoomNexus.5324 said:

I'm not quite sure who said it but I think it was Vallun in his d/p video: "thief is a playmaker".
It's basically the quarterback in an American football team. If the team is bad then they (the thief) are basically useless and if they are bad then they could almost not be there and the team wouldn't feel any difference. But boy oh boy, if a team and a thief synergize well (or any other good roamer tbh) then they can make some pretty incredible plays.
It's essentially a "servant leader" - constantly looking out to serve its team. Diverting as much attention of the enemy team to as many different objectives as possible while actively fighting alongside team members.

So your job is really not to win the fights by yourself. You rather just stay long enough to ensure your team manages to win the fights and immediately continue roaming to your next opportunity. However, this may require you to stay in a team fight if you are required to secure one or two stomps or something (usually when the enemy team has support and can rezz real quick). Especially since thief is really good at denying rezzes and stomps (mainly with Steal against targets with stability or Choking Gas - sb#4 - against multiple targets rezzing/stomping at once).

It's also important to recognize that decapping for example basically challenges the enemy team to either lose out on points or splitting/diverting their attention to recap. This may lead to additional opportunities for your entire team.
But like I said, your team has to play along. One of the main mistakes I notice throughout almost all skill groups is that people play all three nodes. meaning someone is close, someone is far and the other 2 are on mid or rotating between points.
This is extremely bad because not only is it very easy for the enemy team to outnumber your mate(s) at any node and snowball, but it also basically renders you (the thief) useless since your +1 can't really even out a team fight and you also can't decap any node since no node is unguarded. Which means you have to commit to a team fight (which is not ideal for a lot of reasons) or you have to wait until the fights are over and your team (hopefully) zergs down a node, starting a snowball themselves (which unfortunately is rarely the case if a team is so split up..)