So actually how vindi alter/bring new playstyle?

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Let me tell it again. F3 in Vindi does absolutely nothing without Alliance. In what world its a good design?

Obviously, the intent here is to encourage players to use Alliance. Again, that's a CHOICE you get to make and EoD specs elements are very strongly aligned to themselves. 

I mean, this isn't actually much different than your example here ... there are traits that buff Shouts on Reaper ... you can choose that if you want, whether you use one shout or 5 or even ZERO if someone REALLY wants to ... this isn't different. If you want your F3 to be effective, you will choose Alliance ... otherwise, it doesn't do anything for you. That kind of thing is EVERYWHERE in the choices you have to make when you make a build. 

I honestly don't see the problem here ... because you do get two choices for Legends. If neither of those is Alliance, that's your own choice based on your criteria for what you want your build to do. That doesn't mean functions that are intended to work with Alliance legend aren't 'good design'. Seems to me, you just don't want to be restricted by your choices. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Scoobaniec.9561]

16 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Obviously, the intent here is to encourage players to use Alliance. Again, that's a CHOICE you get to make and EoD specs elements are very strongly aligned to themselves. 

I mean, this isn't actually much different than your example here ... there are traits that buff Shouts on Reaper ... you can choose that if you want, whether you use one shout or 5 or even ZERO if someone REALLY wants to ... this isn't different. If you want your F3 to be effective, you will choose Alliance ... otherwise, it doesn't do anything for you. That kind of thing is EVERYWHERE in the choices you have to make when you make a build. 

I honestly don't see the problem here ... because you do get two choices for Legends. If neither of those is Alliance, that's your own choice based on your criteria for what you want your build to do. That doesn't mean functions that are intended to work with Alliance legend aren't 'good design'. Seems to me, you just don't want to be restricted by your choices. 

No. I do not make this choice. Its is built into elite spec regardless of me liking it or not. Forcing player to take Alliance or have a skill doing nothing and questioning it purpose. I cannot switch it out for something else. I cant use it outside of Alliance. With traits i have that choice and its up to me to decide if i want to boost shouts or not. Not the case here at all and those things are not even remotely similiar. It is poor bandaid fix design which shouldnt be let live

 

Anyway no point to argue with some "obvious people" here.

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

No. I do not make this choice.

Again, sounds like you are just complaining about how Revenant works, not that Vindicator has an F3 skill that only works with Alliance Legends. And just to be clear, yes you do make this choice.

Again, you can choose to use Alliance Legend or not. Despite your attempts, this IS a choice you DO have. If you do choose Alliance as a legend, enjoy using your F3 key. It's not a 'design problem' this is a function that is limited to Alliances, just like how lots of other things are limited by choices to other especs since forever.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[grx.8714]

People say in wvw roaming vindi will be a beast.

Maybe if you gank unexpected people with element of surprise. 

But with the dodge mechanic being so telegraphed you will get wiped instant by a good thief, or anyone who will cc and time their burst right at the end of your dodge.

I know it's possible now as well, but sometimes you have the option to double dodge, with vindi after you dodge you are in the worst scenario possible.

But yeah we will see what happens.

[Catchyfx.5768]

7 hours ago, grx.8714 said:

People say in wvw roaming vindi will be a beast.

Maybe if you gank unexpected people with element of surprise. 

But with the dodge mechanic being so telegraphed you will get wiped instant by a good thief, or anyone who will cc and time their burst right at the end of your dodge.

I know it's possible now as well, but sometimes you have the option to double dodge, with vindi after you dodge you are in the worst scenario possible.

But yeah we will see what happens.

This, friend of mine realised this, and troll me hard. Ended dodging on Jalis road or precast stab in alliance, but he was only one I met that tried this. We will see

[grx.8714]

4 hours ago, Catchyfx.5768 said:

This, friend of mine realised this, and troll me hard. Ended dodging on Jalis road or precast stab in alliance, but he was only one I met that tried this. We will see

 

Sigil of endurance gives back 50%, same as rune of the adventurer.

From what I heard now, all 3 types of vindi dodges will cost always 100% endurance right?

 

So it doesn't exist a scenario of double dodge, after you dodge you are forced to "use and probably waste" a block or an evade against even average players, because everyone will know the moment to attack when you re-apper basically.

Similar to 1 dodge mirage, even if mirage has more tools, mirrors, invuln, evade frames, blinds etc.

 

Thing is with enhanced vigor double energy sigil, rune adventurer you will dodge seriously a lot, and that's why the capped it to 1 dodge.

 

But yeah, let's wait and see.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

12 hours ago, grx.8714 said:

People say in wvw roaming vindi will be a beast.

Maybe if you gank unexpected people with element of surprise. 

But with the dodge mechanic being so telegraphed you will get wiped instant by a good thief, or anyone who will cc and time their burst right at the end of your dodge.

I know it's possible now as well, but sometimes you have the option to double dodge, with vindi after you dodge you are in the worst scenario possible.

But yeah we will see what happens.

 

Would be nice if enemy players couldn't see the AoE indicator of where and when the dodge will land. That way the counterplay isn't so directly obvious. If AoE indicators don't exist for skills like nades, mortar, bound, and vault, I see no reason for it to exist on the dodge either. Just keep it on the supportive one for allies and we're good.

[grx.8714]

49 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

Would be nice if enemy players couldn't see the AoE indicator of where and when the dodge will land. That way the counterplay isn't so directly obvious. If AoE indicators don't exist for skills like nades, mortar, bound, and vault, I see no reason for it to exist on the dodge either. Just keep it on the supportive one for allies and we're good.

 

Hmmm actually in the current state enemy can see it? I have no idea tbh.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

58 minutes ago, grx.8714 said:

 

Hmmm actually in the current state enemy can see it? I have no idea tbh.

 

Hmmm had to check myself on that one and watched a couple clips. Seems like at the very least, the support dodge has the AoE indicator for the enemy, not sure about the other two though. 

[Catchyfx.5768]

I thing supoort one didnt had aoe indicator but remaining 2 had.

Good point with nades, you are 100% right

[Gustaff.6581]

So, i play elementalist a lot and i see these legends could be treated as an attunement (they just change your utilities, rather than your weapon skills), it would be nice to have 3 stances (F1, F2, F3 and energy meld) for both alliance legends and the third one, why this? because if i change from my non alliance to the alliance stance, i will be forced to use alliance tactics to get into the other alliance skills.

At first i didnt liked the jump, because tampering with the dodge mechanic doesnt seem well, but i see that now vindicator gets a lot of vigor and with the implementation of energy meld it seems that this spec will get more dodges than any other spec.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Im betting on vindicator being a support where you just dodge on your allies heads as much as possible. Such a disappointing gimmick.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

12 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Im betting on vindicator being a support where you just dodge on your allies heads as much as possible. Such a disappointing gimmick.

Did you play the second beta?  Kind of sounds like a no.

[Thon.3780]

Who have build idea should be ? If we focus on major power  and minor on boon or toughness. 

 

coz I see no trait favor in crit , so I drop precision and ferocity out.

and with one jump . It mean you need tough body to take more damage

[Downstate.4697]

Vindicator gives rev a true frontline wvw build that can be built to heal or do more damage. It also makes them better team fighters in pvp.

[Xaylin.1860]

On 1/29/2022 at 11:42 PM, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Yeah, that has been my single biggest complaint with Rev's elite specs as well. It just doesn't feel like a massive difference in playstyle and that leaves me consistently disappointed.

Not a Revenant excluve problem but the longer I think about it, you are right for all Revenant elites. It's just less apparent because they always get something added ontop. 

 

From a design point of view Rev probably is indeed closest to Elementalist although Tempest isn't too great when it comes to design. Catalyst theoretically is an improvement on Tempest imho (charging up similar to Warrior with Adrenaline) but so far, at least for me, it didn't get there. Energy is way to unimportant for its playstyle to matter.

 

When thinking of the Revenant core, the most obvious things to play into/alter are Energy management and Legend swapping. Of course, you'd could always add "forms" like Shroud or CA ontop but I think Rev is complicated enough. Following this train of thoughts:

 

Core should/would be the archetype and gain Energy passively and by swapping. Herald could be the one gaining increasingly more Energy for staying within a Legend (like Tempest) maybe losing the Energy from swap completely or just needing more time to ramp up than core. Kalla could lose all core Energy gain and have to rely on gaining it actively with the help of Kallas Fervor through different routes (Fury, interrupt, defense). Vindicator could have to rely on swapping and dodging for Energy gain, not regnerating it passively. This would significantly alter gameplay. However, it's also way harder to balance.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

When thinking of the Revenant core, the most obvious things to play into/alter are Energy management and Legend swapping. Of course, you'd could always add "forms" like Shroud or CA ontop but I think Rev is complicated enough. 

That's the insight we need here and even from this perspective, Vindicator provided a different flavour than many of the legends that exist. Even if people ignore the fundamental change to the dodge mechanic (which IMO, is already a significant flavour change), just the shift towards lower CD's and energy costs on the skills and the 'dual' theme of the legend adds to that as well. The original complaint from the OP just doesn't make much sense. The differences are there. They either can't or don't want to see them, likely they take issue with something else

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Scoobaniec.9561]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's the insight we need here and even from this perspective, Vindicator provided a different flavour than many of the legends that exist. Even if people ignore the fundamental change to the dodge mechanic (which IMO, is already a significant flavour change), just the shift towards lower CD's and energy costs on the skills and the 'dual' theme of the legend adds to that as well. The original complaint from the OP just doesn't make much sense. The differences are there. They either can't or don't want to see them, likely they take issue with something else. 

???

The dodge is the only mechanic that changed and its not related to the main mechanic of legend swap.

Alliance skills are utilities and again not connected to legend swap which remains the same

 

For comparison thief this expac gains shroud and thats is actual different playstyle on it own. Rev? Same old swap every 10sec between 2 legends. If i pick up vindi without alliance the only change i will notice is 1 dodge

[Thon.3780]

As I notice , 

the key advantages of Rev is elite skill cd. Is best compare to other profession. 
you can check in wiki. Only berserker has fast cd elite skill. Like Rev. 
 

so it is up to us to play Button 6-0 while other profession play 6-9 and use 0 as thumb card

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

???

The dodge is the only mechanic that changed and its not related to the main mechanic of legend swap.

Alliance skills are utilities and again not connected to legend swap which remains the same

 

For comparison thief this expac gains shroud and thats is actual different playstyle on it own. Rev? Same old swap every 10sec between 2 legends. If i pick up vindi without alliance the only change i will notice is 1 dodge

Listen, your claim doesn't make sense. 

You outright dismissed the validity of the dual legend and ignore both the energy/CD shift on the skills as well as the obvious dodge mechanic change. All these things affect how the spec plays. You either can't or don't want to see these changes exist, because you simple dislike the spec design. 

I get it, you don't like the design of the spec, but you aren't going to make a valid case for that based on 'not a different flavour/playstyle'. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Scoobaniec.9561]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Listen, you're just wrong. 

You right dismissed the validity of the dual legend and ignore both the energy/CD shift on the skills as well as the obvious dodge mechanic change. All these things affect how the spec plays. You either can't or don't want to see these changes exist, because you  simple dislike the spec design. 

I get it, you don't like the design of the spec, but you aren't going to make a valid case for that based on 'not a different flavour'. 

What duel legend? Where is my dual legend if im not choosing alliance? Were there changes where i can pick up Shiro and swap to Jalis within Shiro on f3? I dont recall such changes.

 

So where is my duel legend if i pick up Vindi with core legends?

 

Does thief need to equip it utilities to gain shroud? No. Take the L and move on

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

What duel legend? Where is my dual legend if im not choosing alliance? Were there changes where i can pick up Shiro and swap to Jalis within Shiro on f3? I dont recall such changes.

 

So where is my duel legend if i pick up Vindi with core legends?

 

Does thief need to equip it utilities to gain shroud? No. Take the L and move on

Again, the differences are THERE, you simply have to chose and use them. They exist even if you choose to not use them. 

I mean, your argument here is ACTUALLY that the differences don't exist because you make choices where you don't access them. You realize that's absurd right?

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, the differences are THERE, you simply have to chose and use them. 

Alright. Main mechanic of revenant is F1 key legend swap and it energy regeneration.

Do tell me how it changes with vindi

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Alright. Main mechanic of revenant is F1 key legend swap and it energy regeneration.

Do tell me how it changes with vindi

What EVER led you to the conclusion that F1 on Revenant needs to change for there to be a different flavour between especs? That's completely contrived. 

The fact is that there is different flavour in Vindicator and that it's certainly not a reason to have issue with not liking the design of the spec. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Xaylin.1860]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's the insight we need here and even from this perspective, Vindicator provided a different flavour than many of the legends that exist. Even if people ignore the fundamental change to the dodge mechanic (which IMO, is already a significant flavour change), just the shift towards lower CD's and energy costs on the skills and the 'dual' theme of the legend adds to that as well. The original complaint from the OP just doesn't make much sense. The differences are there. They either can't or don't want to see them, likely they take issue with something else. 

I'm very torn on the dodge thing because it's yet another add on which doesn't directly interact with Energy nor Legend swapping. But yes, it will most likely alter gameplay.

 

Now, the dual Legend is interesting. But to me, they missed the mark on that one. Simply due to the fact that this is an optional part on the Vindicator. An even if you set this aside, it is basically just an additional set of skills when compared to other Legends. Don't get me wrong: Alliance plays different than other Legends due to the duality. But the duality is simply not integral to the Vindicator. This would have been different if, for example, Vindicator would always have to pick Alliance. Or if they were encouraged to switch Legends more often and therefore benefit from the duality even more. But they don't. Meaning: to me Alliance is mostly flavor rather than the main feature or a new playstyle. Which one could argue is supported by the fact that most traits are dodge or Endurance focussed.