To compensate the lack of damage on CC warrior weapons

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The logic is that big chains of CCs basically give the target no opportunity to react once the chain starts, unless they have a stunbreak that also protects them from the followup CC. Not every profession has access to such abilities, and some that do have had them nerfed so heavily that they're not worth taking unless you're absolutely sure you're going up against a heavy CC build or two (and sometimes not even then).

Obviously, YMMV on how much of a problem that was, and arguably a better approach might have been simply to improve the anti-CC measures of the professions that were suffering. But that was the logic.

There is too much blind, weakness, barrier, aegis, evade spam in this game all of which can negate that big CC chain from the beginning.

 

The only people suffering from said long cc chains are 0 dodge roleplayers or are afk. The one class that does have an issue with cc chains has an on demand 50% damage reduction to negate any bursts inside that cc chain, and can proc weakness as they do it.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Any decent thief.
Terrormancer that bothers to bring even one boon corrupt.
Reapers that know what they are doing (I kill warriors easily on my Reaper fwiw)
Good weavers will out play you completely.
Any good FB will out CC you and keep you locked and burn you to death.
Immob beast and Immob druid will burn through your CDs then keep you immobilized and bleed you out.
Nade Holo.
Mesmers that remember that their clones are for shatters.

I could go on. The point is that you getting your butt handed to you be a better duelist is not indicative of the class, and only that you lost to a better player.
 

 

Bruh:

 

 

Imagine if CC had dmg on top of that? I think the warrior community is actually struggling with the fact of being in a good place while there are other specs/classes/builds that are overtuned.  The solution is to tune those other things, not 'buff' warrior.  

[Zekent.3652]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Bruh:

 

 

Imagine if CC had dmg on top of that? I think the warrior community is actually struggling with the fact of being in a good place while there are other specs/classes/builds that are overtuned.  The solution is to tune those other things, not 'buff' warrior.  

Are you trying to show the "reality" of a class with a montage? So innocent xD.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Bruh:

 

 

Imagine if CC had dmg on top of that? I think the warrior community is actually struggling with the fact of being in a good place while there are other specs/classes/builds that are overtuned.  The solution is to tune those other things, not 'buff' warrior.  

Bruh, if warrior is in a 'good place' but other classes are overtuned then warrior isn't in a good place at all.

It's either the other classes get half their kits gutted like warrior's, or you buff warrior. One of these is easier and more fun for everyone, the other would cause a mass Exodus to FF14.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Bruh, if warrior is in a 'good place' but other classes are overtuned then warrior isn't in a good place at all.

It's either the other classes get half their kits gutted like warrior's, or you buff warrior. One of these is easier and more fun for everyone, the other would cause a mass Exodus to FF14.

 

I feel like we're talking like very few classes that are overtuned.  For WvW, outside of support, it'd probably be nade engi and possibly a few various herald builds? I mean, maybe a fresh air or something can keep up as well, but it's really a small list.  

 

5 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Are you trying to show the "reality" of a class with a montage? So innocent xD.

 

I can post a pair of duels against a spellbreaker, the first I barely won and the second we stalemated for 5 minutes (or it felt like).  I was even using immob Druid too, which is quoted in this topic as one of the specs that 'wrecks warrior'.  If said warrior had damage on CC I'd have stood no chance, because it's bad enough trying to avoid it with limited access to stab and stealth, let alone be getting hit for 3-4k a CC.  

 

What'd I'd like to see is a 'counter montage', essentially Warriors getting owned by something and having no chance at beating it.  For me it'd be in PvE or WvW, as PvP is a different animal and I have little idea there.  

[Myror.7521]

@Gotejjeke.1267 when you try to say that a melee class is fine by having 0 dmg on cc skills ...... you shouldnt use a montage....... specialy not one where 90% of the enemys get hit by every single cc skill.....

[Hotride.2187]

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Bruh:

 

 

Imagine if CC had dmg on top of that? I think the warrior community is actually struggling with the fact of being in a good place while there are other specs/classes/builds that are overtuned.  The solution is to tune those other things, not 'buff' warrior.  

You can do a lot with warrior if your opponents have no hands / no build (or both). But the same is true for any roamer build. Not to diminish the skill of the player in the video, but you will be deleted 2v1 vs good players on meta roamer builds (unless you run).

[Hotride.2187]

8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

What'd I'd like to see is a 'counter montage', essentially Warriors getting owned by something and having no chance at beating it.  For me it'd be in PvE or WvW, as PvP is a different animal and I have little idea there.  

I won't record videos of my duels, since that is too much effort for me (and who knows when I'll duel skilled players again, with duel spot being dead nearly all of the time during ppt wvw matchups). But I can give you a list of what I've dueled in the last 2-3 months.

Assuming a bit lower or equal skill players (you are in for a ride if your opponent is on that build and is better than you):

SB, either condi boonbeast or power LB/GS. You will struggle also with power boonbeast, but that is more winnable.

Trap rune DH with LB/shield. Not exactly no chance, but very low chance. You will need endure pain and balanced stance, which to me is already a no-no as in spvp you don't have the luxury to switch to balanced stance from shake it off (just for that one DH that will sit on a node and drop traps).

D/P thief. Core with some knight gear has a chance against this, but if the thief is good the chance is low. Spb is just deleted, this is by far your worst matchup for wvw roaming/dueling.

Rene on SB/dual sword (cele stats mixed with power gear). You have a slight chance of winning this, but its dicey (like 1 in 10 duels dicey).

Condi scrapper with mixed cele gear.  You might have some chance there on equal skill level, if you get lucky with consistently ripping stab; I assume you won't get lucky often enough.

There are also 2 cele tempest builds that I've not been able to beat (one had a lot of CC, the other insane boon spam). But those are rare.

Since you are saying "no chance at beating it", I'll also include DE rifle thief. They can't win against you, but you also won't be killing them. That to me counts as "no chance at beating it".

I think from everything I've dueled, the above is what counters you. There is also a tankier FT engi build with CC that you have no chance against, but from my duels there are very  few skilled players who play FT engi (and overall very few FT engis).

Note that I'm assuming you will switch from spb dagger/shield to core axe/shield (both GS) in duels that are not favorable for spb (e.g. cele condi mirage, S/D thief, condi herald). Also note that any of the builds above are dead in a 2v1 where the 2 is in your favor, assuming they don't run (so warrior is not that horrible, its just not good enough for the above in 1v1).

As for your comment, I've not lost a duel with spb against a condi druid in the last months (though there aren't many of them running around). It can take a very long while to kill though, if played well (assuming if you are not an kitten killing their pets).

Edited February 6, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

There is too much blind, weakness, barrier, aegis, evade spam in this game all of which can negate that big CC chain from the beginning.

 

The only people suffering from said long cc chains are 0 dodge roleplayers or are afk. The one class that does have an issue with cc chains has an on demand 50% damage reduction to negate any bursts inside that cc chain, and can proc weakness as they do it.

That's basically the "bad things never happen if you just dodge everything" argument. Every build runs out of defenses eventually, and generally speaking, the more you invest in just keeping yourself alive, the less you contribute to the team.

I also don't think that the alleged problem was a 1v1 problem. It's a "the enemy team put a target marker on someone and three of them hit the target with a CC chain" problem. There are professions that could survive that - mesmer teleports or invuls, guardian has aegis and stab, and so on - but some like necro, ranger, revenants that either aren't in Shiro or have already used their energy, and any engineer that didn't have Elixir S ready to go were pretty much ping-ponged to death. You might dodge the initial CC and stunbreak the second, but if there are enough coming in, something's gonna land and the chain starts.

Now, I do think what was done to warrior was a gross overreaction. Could put some damage back on the other skills. Could make the CC skills do damage (albeit not as much) again - doesn't mace Pommel Bash remain unsplit? But I don't think it's likely to go back to pre-2020.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

was done to warrior was a gross overreaction. Could put some damage back on the other skills. Could make the CC skills do damage (albeit not as much) again - doesn't mace Pommel Bash remain unsplit? But I don't think it's likely to go back to pre-2020.

It was a gross overreaction. Toning CC down by the same amount as all the other coefficients would have been enough.

Pommel Bash is unsplit, but it is a daze, dazes not Full Counter did not get their damages gutted in Feb2020, and Pommel Bash has always been crap damage, 0.4 coefficient. But even that level of damage on CCs would be fine.

[Venstar.6534]

Imo some cc skills not having high damage or even not at all is ok. But some cc skills should also have really good damage. 

i.e: Bull rush having high mobility and cc meaning this skill should not be hitting people 4k to 6k on top having these things. Because it's already fills 2 good mechanics, mobility and cc. Hammer skills on the other hand should be having some damage on them. Hammer 5 for example is just a single target, short ranged and very slow telegraphed skill. Then, this skill hitting hard would be ok.

That's pretty much what i think about damage on ccs.

1. Skill A(Bull's rush) with high mobility + stun: No damage
2. Skill B(Warrior Hammer 5); single target, slow, short ranged + stun: big damage
3. Skill C(Scourge F4 shade); AoE, ranged: no damage. But then there is special occations like warrior hammer burst. It consumes adrenaline on top of having cast time and being slow. If there won't be any damage on hit, should be compansated with another things like making it unblockable, no miss modifiers. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Venstar.6534

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I won't record videos of my duels, since that is too much effort for me (and who knows when I'll duel skilled players again, with duel spot being dead nearly all of the time during ppt wvw matchups). But I can give you a list of what I've dueled in the last 2-3 months.

Assuming a bit lower or equal skill players (you are in for a ride if your opponent is on that build and is better than you):

SB, either condi boonbeast or power LB/GS. You will struggle also with power boonbeast, but that is more winnable.

Trap rune DH with LB/shield. Not exactly no chance, but very low chance. You will need endure pain and balanced stance, which to me is already a no-no as in spvp you don't have the luxury to switch to balanced stance from shake it off (just for that one DH that will sit on a node and drop traps).

D/P thief. Core with some knight gear has a chance against this, but if the thief is good the chance is low. Spb is just deleted, this is by far your worst matchup for wvw roaming/dueling.

Rene on SB/dual sword (cele stats mixed with power gear). You have a slight chance of winning this, but its dicey (like 1 in 10 duels dicey).

Condi scrapper with mixed cele gear.  You might have some chance there on equal skill level, if you get lucky with consistently ripping stab; I assume you won't get lucky often enough.

There are also 2 cele tempest builds that I've not been able to beat (one had a lot of CC, the other insane boon spam). But those are rare.

Since you are saying "no chance at beating it", I'll also include DE rifle thief. They can't win against you, but you also won't be killing them. That to me counts as "no chance at beating it".

I think from everything I've dueled, the above is what counters you. There is also a tankier FT engi build with CC that you have no chance against, but from my duels there are very  few skilled players who play FT engi (and overall very few FT engis).

Note that I'm assuming you will switch from spb dagger/shield to core axe/shield (both GS) in duels that are not favorable for spb (e.g. cele condi mirage, S/D thief, condi herald). Also note that any of the builds above are dead in a 2v1 where the 2 is in your favor, assuming they don't run (so warrior is not that horrible, its just not good enough for the above in 1v1).

As for your comment, I've not lost a duel with spb against a condi druid in the last months (though there aren't many of them running around). It can take a very long while to kill though, if played well (assuming if you are not an kitten killing their pets).

 

So no necro builds, no mesmer builds (outside of the 'non-favorable' condi mirage), only one or two ele builds...

Sounds to me like the usual struggles of any class against overtuned things in WvW (aforementioned scrapper, rene/herald, some thief builds, etc.).  Listing LB soulbeast is weird too, because LB should be a counter to warrior, so hopefully you'd struggle with beating that; any soulbeast would say the same about reflect or block heavy specs.  

Even at the end you admit warrior isn't that horrible in what will amount to 90%+ playtime in WvW (unless you specifically look for duels) as there are very few 1v1 encounters in the wild there. 

You also agree with me that druid is an extremely close match, which is good because druid is also another spec the forums complain incessantly about and isn't OP really at all, but merely balanced.  It's the good players that make it seem OP to certain groups of people.  

Essentially, I'm sticking with the opinion to tune down the egregious classes and not messed with the very few that are actually balanced around good players, warrior being one of them.  

[oscuro.9720]

I don’t think CC skills having no damage is an issue for most builds. Hammer and mace are their own things, but I’m not going to talk about those. For most warrior builds, removing CC damage was the correct move. The accompanied drop in warrior DPS on all the other skills is where DPS needs to be added back imo.

I’ve made several posts about fixing warrior and try to avoid talking about DOS, as it’s a lazy fix, but it is a quick, easy, and effective one. Increasing the damage of burst skills (namely arcing slice and eviscerate) so they are in line with other, similar skills on other classes (I.e. Maul, Guard Hammer 2, gravedigger, etc.) would go a long ways. Note, these aren’t massive buffs, just slight upwards tuning. 

Then we can get into things like hundred blades, which should have its channel time reduced to be in line with other skills of its type (whirling wrath, rapid fire, unrelenting assault, etc.). Small buffs to auto attack damage would be impactful as well.

From there, I would turn attention off damage and onto trait-based sustain, which was hit exceptionally hard on warrior in the 2020 patch (for good reason tbf). Again, not massive buffs, but some small increases here and there would make a big difference. For example, 2 might on MBT instead of 1, fix the defense line, make healing signet not the worst signet in the game, etc.

Edited February 6, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Hotride.2187]

48 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

So no necro builds, no mesmer builds (outside of the 'non-favorable' condi mirage), only one or two ele builds...

Sounds to me like the usual struggles of any class against overtuned things in WvW (aforementioned scrapper, rene/herald, some thief builds, etc.).  Listing LB soulbeast is weird too, because LB should be a counter to warrior, so hopefully you'd struggle with beating that; any soulbeast would say the same about reflect or block heavy specs.  

Even at the end you admit warrior isn't that horrible in what will amount to 90%+ playtime in WvW (unless you specifically look for duels) as there are very few 1v1 encounters in the wild there. 

You also agree with me that druid is an extremely close match, which is good because druid is also another spec the forums complain incessantly about and isn't OP really at all, but merely balanced.  It's the good players that make it seem OP to certain groups of people.  

Essentially, I'm sticking with the opinion to tune down the egregious classes and not messed with the very few that are actually balanced around good players, warrior being one of them.  

You misinterpret me. You wanted a list of 1v1 matchups that war cannot win, I gave you one. I'm not saying you struggle with them, I'm saying you will lose nearly every time. There is no contest, even if the opponent is slightly less skilled than you are. At most you will bring them down to 10-20%; I've gotten salutes/duel requests for managing even that much.

If you consider roaming outside of 1v1, war is a trainwreck that almost no1 plays (for good reasons). Mesmer is probably the only other profession that brings equally nothing in a team fight (honestly I think mesmer is in an even worse spot than warrior for wvw, to an extent also for spvp). I switch to zealot core with warhorn and battle standard for team fights, that is the extent of contribution I can do for a team fight.

2 condis look at you for more than 5 seconds? You are deleted. A good thief is around (believe it or not, this is common)? I hope no one else is focusing you. Anything with a support running around? Good luck getting even close to that support, much less doing your role - boonstripping and stunlocking. Overall your only answer to 1v2 (or 1vX) is run and hope only 1 of the players chases you. You don't even do aoe damage. Seen a ganker guild run a warrior recently? Me neither.

Warrior is actually "good" at 1v1,  compared to the rest that warrior brings in small scale roaming. Bubble bot is really the only thing warrior excels at right now in wvw and even there you need only 1 to 3 warriors depending on group size (which admittedly is still better than rangers, eles, mesmers for mid and large scale wvw).

For tuning down op specs, this topic exists because they have not been toned down for over an year; the assumption is that this will continue in future. Personally I don't care which one you do, nerf the overtuned specs (seems unlikely) or buff warrior to do something.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Guyz strength Spellbreaker OP 😎

 

Also unkillable Burnzerkers 🥵

 

It def means Arms and Defense are too strong and that the need for Discipline doen't mean anything, let alone the useless Tactics traits and the monopoly Strength has over sustain and dmg.

[Puck.3697]

Imho 

I think they should restore CC damage to core warrior as their unique strength. 

Berserker should lose all CC damage

And spellbreaker should retain 50% 

Theres enough stun breaks and with warriors weakness to condis it would be counterable by multiple builds currently available. 

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Imho 

I think they should restore CC damage to core warrior as their unique strength. 

Berserker should lose all CC damage

And spellbreaker should retain 50% 

Theres enough stun breaks and with warriors weakness to condis it would be counterable by multiple builds currently available. 

No.

Don't give them the hand, they'll take the arm.

A blanket "all CC is 0 damage" has always been a simplistic idea, and not overly smart. It was supposed to be a temporary measure that would be replaced by a "further look at offensive CC skills". Which never happened.

A blanket "ok, maybe core war gets some CC damage" is not a positive, constructive compromise.

[Puck.3697]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

No.

Don't give them the hand, they'll take the arm.

A blanket "all CC is 0 damage" has always been a simplistic idea, and not overly smart. It was supposed to be a temporary measure that would be replaced by a "further look at offensive CC skills". Which never happened.

A blanket "ok, maybe core war gets some CC damage" is not a positive, constructive compromise.

It's fine for a proffession to have unique niches and ability. 

A blanket nerf is boring and mundane and it just is a step closer to homogenisation. Allow proffessions to flourish in their niches and be unique from one another. 

Warriors lack a strong unique strength currently this would defintly give them that. Theres no reason why it couldn't happen and if it's too strong then they can balance it out til it's fine. 

Being in melee with a warrior should be scarey. Their susposed to be the strongest upfront melee in the game. Allow them to be that. 

The fact they get countered massively by conditional based damage and also plenty of builds can kite them out will keep it fine. I don't understand why people want 1 rule for all in a game which proffessions are susposed to express individuality, unique identity and options. 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

If you give it to core you'd have to give it to all the warrior specs.

But you are right, its okay for a profession to have it's own niche. So turn Body Blow into strike damage. MH and SM could also be updated to affect the CC damage of those two weapons in particular.

[Lucentfir.7430]

Oh for the love of goodness just restore damage onto CC abilities and make them unable to crit, people overcomplicating the solution by trying to add traits to enable it, when the blanket change was and still is, one of the dumbest changes to be implemented. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Oh for the love of goodness just restore damage onto CC abilities and make them unable to crit, people overcomplicating the solution by trying to add traits to enable it, when the blanket change was and still is, one of the dumbest changes to be implemented. 

Thats more from CMC saying that doing damage via a trait on CC is fine, hence the discussion around Body Blow.

I'd go even further, give them their damage back, scaled to the current meta (-25% to -50% damage depending) but allowed to critical. Something like Backbreaker, Headbutt, EarthShaker, and Wildblow should crit and be felt, but Staggering blow isn't something that should be super powerful.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

No.

Don't give them the hand, they'll take the arm.

A blanket "all CC is 0 damage" has always been a simplistic idea, and not overly smart. It was supposed to be a temporary measure that would be replaced by a "further look at offensive CC skills". Which never happened.

A blanket "ok, maybe core war gets some CC damage" is not a positive, constructive compromise.

@Daddy.8125 While I disagree with Boz's turn of phrase implying that warriors are somehow ready to exploit any notion of mercy, the core of his argument is correct (and I respect that he's terrified of warriors doing damage on skills that remain highly telegraphed and dodgeable, but at the end of the day that petrification shouldn't mean warriors should perpetually be bullied. ) If you're going to return damage on CC to warriors, berserkers should not be neglected by that. They perform the worst out of all of the warrior specs in pvp and need the most assistance.

I don't agree that warriors need damage back on CC to fix the class. If people want to be handheld additionally by having an extra couple fractions of a second to press their stunbreak buttons, so be it.

But, in exchange for that, the cooldowns for the meager sustain options warriors have right now need to be adjusted. All stances, especially berserker stance and including shield stance, need cooldown reductions. In addition to that, any burst or damaging skills need to either have their damage increased or be traitable to ignore things like weakness, and berserker could sorely use the addition of a reproc of Burst of Aggression on taking Bloody Roar, since it lacks the leaps and tether spellbreaker uses to force engagements. 

If I need to spend the entirety of the fight getting in range of you without stealth, teleports, or excessive evades, then knock you down for 7 damage to ensure I don't waste my burst, and you don't do or cannot do anything at that point, either the follow up burst should make you cry inside, I should have enough active mitigation to make sure I can continue to do that, or both. How we get there is up for debate, but that should be the archetype. And if people disagree with that after all of those prior qualifications are met, they should just admit they don't want warrior to be fair for the warrior player (or at some point have internalized that warriors should be easy to beat) so we can stop having these arguments. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Puck.3697]

29 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 If you're going to return damage on CC to warriors, berserkers should not be neglected by that. They perform the worst out of all of the warrior specs in pvp and need the most assistance

Problem would occur with berserkers ability to one shot of you returned CC it'd likely make some very overpowered builds. 

It's alike core shatter mesmer and Fresh air ele. They don't get touched as they make very unfun builds to fight against. 

One shot builds shouldn't really exist in spvp realistically. 

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Problem would occur with berserkers ability to one shot of you returned CC it'd likely make some very overpowered builds. 

It's alike core shatter mesmer and Fresh air ele. They don't get touched as they make very unfun builds to fight against. 

One shot builds shouldn't really exist in spvp realistically. 

 

Hard disagree. Berserker was the weakest class in the game even before the blanket nerf, but let's assume you're right for the sake of argument.

 Berserker still weak. so instead of ignoring them entirely, fix their utility/the uptime of their active mitigation. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[oscuro.9720]

8 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Imho 

I think they should restore CC damage to core warrior as their unique strength. 

Berserker should lose all CC damage

And spellbreaker should retain 50% 

Theres enough stun breaks and with warriors weakness to condis it would be counterable by multiple builds currently available. 

I disagree. The problem with the 2020 patch was not nerfing CC damage for the most part (hammer asks mace are the exceptions), it was also nerfing all of warriors other damage as much as or more than other classes as well, when warrior was already dependent on CC skills for comparable damage to other classes. 

If the damage to other things hadn’t been hit so hard, I think warrior would be in a better place, but I don’t think CC is the place to put it. 

Sustain/utility is another matter, but I’m not going to go there.

Edited February 8, 2022 by oscuro.9720