Changes in EoD and Mystic Clovers [Merged]

[Asum.4960]

7 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

This certainly supports what I had been saying all earlier in this thread that the profit loss would be minimal for fractal CMs. It also shows that the average mystic coins earned was also very close to what I was claiming that they were. 
 

Any thoughts @George.9745 @Linken.6345 @Asum.4960 ?  

While the phrasing makes it sound that way and tries to downplay it, it's a loss of ~3g per day from playing CM's, which already trail behind quite a bit in terms of gold for time and effort spent.  

It's kind of like if they removed the 2g from daily achievements. Sure, that's not "a lot" of daily gold earned less, but for those who don't care about AP or are already AP capped, that 2g less takes away any and all incentive to still do them. 

 

Beyond the CM's being fun content, what's the point of still doing them, especially if you got your Relics, Titles etc. already sorted?

Is the loss massive? No, but it's enough to potentially make an already small community crumble. 

 

Veteran CM runners have literally hundreds of thousands of Fractal Relics and tens of thousands of Pristines piling up, a few extra of those from CM's isn't exactly a compelling incentive alone. 

It's just silly to me that I can make more gold in the same time with less effort solo farming some T1 Fractals than playing the hardest 5 man content in the game, and they turn around and nerf the rewards for that content further down - so why make the effort?

[Cyninja.2954]

25 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

While the phrasing makes it sound that way and tries to downplay it, it's a loss of ~3g per day from playing CM's, which already trail behind quite a bit in terms of gold for time and effort spent.  

It's kind of like if they removed the 2g from daily achievements. Sure, that's not "a lot" of daily gold earned less, but for those who don't care about AP or are already AP capped, that 2g less takes away any and all incentive to still do them. 

According to fast farming community, CMs are between 5-6.5g each (each fractal on it's own is above 30 gold per hour in reward, obviously one can not farm them repeatedly). A loss of 1g per CM is significant but hardly a total reward removal and the content, even when not daily, still rewards towards the upper level of gold/hour safely.

 

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Beyond the CM's being fun content, what's the point of still doing them, especially if you got your Relics, Titles etc. already sorted?

Is the loss massive? No, but it's enough to potentially make an already small community crumble. 

 

The Integrated Fractal Matrix alone makes it worthwhile for players with fractal god, even if only used to acquire additional keys and save that gold.

 

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Veteran CM runners have literally hundreds of thousands of Fractal Relics and tens of thousands of Pristines piling up, a few extra of those from CM's isn't exactly a compelling incentive alone. 

It's just silly to me that I can make more gold in the same time with less effort solo farming some T1 Fractals than playing the hardest 5 man content in the game, and they turn around and nerf the rewards for that content further down - so why make the effort?

 

I do agree that the complete removal of Mystic Clovers is unfortunate and maybe could be adjusted to something like (complete 2 or CMs per day for 1 Mystic Coin daily, complete 9 CMs per week for an additional weekly 3 MC).

 

The outrage and whining were/are far out of proportions though. The content remains rewarding. It still serves a purpose and tbh, the price increase on Mystic Clovers hits far more than the reward nerf.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[ReaverKane.7598]

3 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

According to fast farming community, CMs are between 5-6.5g each (each fractal on it's own is above 30 gold per hour in reward, obviously one can not farm them repeatedly). A loss of 1g per CM is significant but hardly a total reward removal and the content, even when not daily, still rewards towards the upper level of gold/hour safely.

I don't think you're understanding the point. The issue isn't that the loss is very big, its that MC, and especially the chance at a big pay from MC, was the largest incentive to do CM. Without the MC reward CM are just not worth the time they take to run.

3 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The Integrated Fractal Matrix alone makes it worthwhile for players with fractal god, even if only used to acquire additional keys and save that gold.

Maybe, but the thing is, we already have that option, and Fractal CM is a tiny community in the game. They're just making it less profitable, and reducing that community further. I mean, its almost like they want the game to fail on purpose so they can go do something else.

3 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The outrage and whining were/are far out of proportions though. The content remains rewarding. It still serves a purpose and tbh, the price increase on Mystic Clovers hits far more than the reward nerf.

No, the Mystic Clover price will be compounded by the reduced source of MC, if you think 2g is a lot for MCs, wait when they go for 3-5g in 6-12 months from now.

They're at the same time increasing the demand by two-fold just for Mystic clovers, and reducing the availability by a large portion. And that's not even counting the newness factor for Gen 3 legendaries.
 

Also, while downgrading an already quite niche game mode is an issue, especially in a game that struggles with retention and "end game", the other problem is the blatant, and kind of obtuse, attempt at misdirection by trying to explain away the blatant push for EoD strikes in detriment to Fractals. They wanted to remove the "one stop shop" but then created a new one. Trying to remove the "one stop shop" would mean creating either other stop shops, or spreading out the content, so that people would have to do both fractals and strikes, but no. They moved the single source of MCs to EoD strikes, at a MUCH reduced rate, and added a source of Clovers as well.

That's the thing that i hate the most, and why i would have asked for a refund, if i hadn't bought the 90€ pack, and spent the Gems already, its that even with all the promise of openness, and dialogue, Arena Net already fell back to the old hypercritical and condescending style of communication, that simply shoves their point of view on players without recourse or balance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

 

36 minutes ago, ReaverKane.7598 said:

I don't think you're understanding the point. The issue isn't that the loss is very big, its that MC, and especially the chance at a big pay from MC, was the largest incentive to do CM. Without the MC reward CM are just not worth the time they take to run.

 

Well I guess my incentive differed from yours. I ran fractal CMs because they were fun, good gold and reduced my time to fractal god as well as rewarding fractal relics, which allowed me to skip a few daily fractal runs yet still get my clovers.

 

The Mystic Coins were never the main motivator for me. I'm sure I am not alone in this.

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Maybe, but the thing is, we already have that option, and Fractal CM is a tiny community in the game. They're just making it less profitable, and reducing that community further. I mean, its almost like they want the game to fail on purpose so they can go do something else.

 

It remains one of the highest gold per hour content in game. Not only that, it is guaranteed gold per hour.

 

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No, the Mystic Clover price will be compounded by the reduced source of MC, if you think 2g is a lot for MCs, wait when they go for 3-5g in 6-12 months from now.

You did not by any chance read the update info did you?

 

1. We know now fractal CM mystic coins were nearly insignificant as far as mystic coins to the market is concerned

 

2. The cost change for mystic coin clovers will have a far more significant impact on the price of MC than any drop change

 

3. There is a very high chance that mystic coins via strikes will drastically outperform mystic coin to the game generation than fractal CMs ever did.

 

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They're at the same time increasing the demand by two-fold just for Mystic clovers, and reducing the availability by a large portion. And that's not even counting the newness factor for Gen 3 legendaries.

Again, not true. Official statement literally made it official that mystic coins from CMs was below 10% of the total mystic coin generated. Pretty much insignificant.

 

The cap on mystic clovers per week and the new ways to gain them will decide the rest.

Quote

Also, while downgrading an already quite niche game mode is an issue, especially in a game that struggles with retention and "end game", the other problem is the blatant, and kind of obtuse, attempt at misdirection by trying to explain away the blatant push for EoD strikes in detriment to Fractals. They wanted to remove the "one stop shop" but then created a new one. Trying to remove the "one stop shop" would mean creating either other stop shops, or spreading out the content, so that people would have to do both fractals and strikes, but no. They moved the single source of MCs to EoD strikes, at a MUCH reduced rate, and added a source of Clovers as well.

That's the thing that i hate the most, and why i would have asked for a refund, if i hadn't bought the 90€ pack, and spent the Gems already, its that even with all the promise of openness, and dialogue, Arena Net already fell back to the old hypercritical and condescending style of communication, that simply shoves their point of view on players without recourse or balance.

 

If you can't see the developers attempts at saving instanced content in this game (after severly neglecting the niche), I don't know what to tell you.

If you would rather keep farming your years old content, which was power creept beyond all recognition (fractal CMs are a joke) instead of hoping for a shot at actually sustainable regular instanced content (hopefully with some challenge), then you are stuck in the past and the game might just as well be dead. Go deinstall because with that approach you might as well.

Doesn't mean that strikes with 3 difficulties will succeed, but at this point it's the best kitten at revival we got.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[evlover.6270]

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In reality, 93% of mystic coins come from login rewards. The remaining 7% includes sources such as Ley Line Anomaly, WvW Gold/Platinum chests, Fractal daily chests, Mystic Forger daily mission, and Fractal CM's. Of those, Fractal CM's are one of the smaller sources- they're just really not played by a lot of people relative to other sources, because the content is very difficult and exclusive.

Then why nerf the MC rewards from fractal cms if they're insignificant anyway? A part of your playerbase is doing them on a daily basis, there's always lfgs up to do them, and you take away the carrot to do them and improve themselves to be able to do them smoothly. If not many people are doing it, why enrage them instead of leaving them be?

And seriously, how unhealthy is it that 93% of one of your most important currencies is being inputted from login rewards, a process which people automate to login alt accs and make gold without playing your game. Why not reduce that input to 10% and spread the other 83% to your actual active content that people can PLAY? 

Or is the company really that desperate for money that they just want people to keep logging in with their 5-100 alt accounts as long as they paid for the core game to use mails? (like 4 euro/core gamekey or got it for free with Prime promos/handed down from friends who quit/whatever) If that post on reddit was supposed to rectify nerfing fracts, imo it just does the opposite. Being greedy for cash from inactive accounts instead of promoting active gameplay is not the way to run your game cause in the long run it's going to destroy it. It's just a quick cashgrab without longterm vision, a bubble that will burst if people start to label it as p2w because then your input of new players will stop.

Tbh I am just flabbergasted that 93% of the MC's come from log in rewards. I thought it would be like 40-50% and even that would've already been way too high. One of the most important currencies of the entire game, locked behind log in rewards while it could've been used as an incentive to actively play your content instead.. Completely mind blown. Add them to raids, add them to strikes, add them anywhere it can't be leeched and so much people will start playing so many things they haven't touched for months/years, actively connecting with one another to tackle them instead of the passive log in rewards that don't add anything towards the community. All those possibilities.. But nope, you keep them tied to log in rewards.. Waw, just waw..

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by evlover.6270

[ugrakarma.9416]

The problem inst nerf itself, perhaps the effect on economy is negligible to completely nothing.... But the message about direction theyre going on this, is about this why ppl are are panicking. 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[evlover.6270]

18 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

The problem inst nerf itself, perhaps the effect on economy is negligible to completely nothing.... But the message about direction theyre going on this, is about this why ppl are are panicking. 

 

 

Well, true, cause unlike the other expansions, I didn't prepurchase EoD yet since I was disappointed in everything from PoF except mounts and the elite specs. And this direction is definitely making me wonder if I should still buy EoD at all since this direction makes no sense to me.

They'd better address the real problems like the 50 afk people farming baubles in VB, other multibox afk farms, multiboxing on metas and the passive income from login rewards imo.

Edited February 16, 2022 by evlover.6270

[ReaverKane.7598]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

 

Well I guess my incentive differed from yours. I ran fractal CMs because they were fun, good gold and reduced my time to fractal god as well as rewarding fractal relics, which allowed me to skip a few daily fractal runs yet still get my clovers.

 

The Mystic Coins were never the main motivator for me. I'm sure I am not alone in this.

 

It remains one of the highest gold per hour content in game. Not only that, it is guaranteed gold per hour.

 

You did not by any chance read the update info did you?

 

1. We know now fractal CM mystic coins were nearly insignificant as far as mystic coins to the market is concerned

 

2. The cost change for mystic coin clovers will have a far more significant impact on the price of MC than any drop change

 

3. There is a very high chance that mystic coins via strikes will drastically outperform mystic coin to the game generation than fractal CMs ever did.

 

Again, not true. Official statement literally made it official that mystic coins from CMs was below 10% of the total mystic coin generated. Pretty much insignificant.

 

The cap on mystic clovers per week and the new ways to gain them will decide the rest.

 

If you can't see the developers attempts at saving instanced content in this game (after severly neglecting the niche), I don't know what to tell you.

If you would rather keep farming your years old content, which was power creept beyond all recognition (fractal CMs are a joke) instead of hoping for a shot at actually sustainable regular instanced content (hopefully with some challenge), then you are stuck in the past and the game might just as well be dead. Go deinstall because with that approach you might as well.

Doesn't mean that strikes with 3 difficulties will succeed, but at this point it's the best kitten at revival we got.

Well, if the MC from fractals are so insignificant, why remove them? I mean they're insignificant, yet they had to be removed?
Fractal CMs are a joke? What about Strikes? There's 2 of them that can't be auto attacked through, and two that people don't do, because they're literally too long to be bearable.
And sure, yeah CM Fractals are fun, but after a while MCs are the only actual reward you get from them, because you don't get gold from CMs, you get from the other modes, but CM gold is minute by comparison.

Also, this is what they wrote in the Article:

Quote

Currently, Challenge Mode fractals are one of the largest single sources for Mystic Coins entering our economy, as each boss in Challenge Mode 98, 99, and 100 has a small chance to award either 1, 2, or 3 Mystic Coins.

I mean, either its tiny, or one of the largest. Either they need to balance it, or they are purposely decaying one of the already smallest game modes in gw2.
 

[Asum.4960]

10 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

According to fast farming community, CMs are between 5-6.5g each (each fractal on it's own is above 30 gold per hour in reward, obviously one can not farm them repeatedly). A loss of 1g per CM is significant but hardly a total reward removal and the content, even when not daily, still rewards towards the upper level of gold/hour safely.

"Gold per hour" can be deceiving though. For one, as you said, it's non-farmable/daily gated, secondly, it's arguably the highest difficulty/personal responsibility content in the game and thirdly, requires extensive experience, comes with setup/LFG times, etc. 

A realistic (especially post patch) 25g/h with a decent group is pretty meager for that, considering there are OW (hold down the 1 key) farms and metas that net 56 "gold per hour", Dungeon paths that net 60 "gold per hour", Strikes at 44 "gold per hour" (also according to fast farming) and you can straight up solo farm some T1 Fractals at 60 gold per hour (with Fractal God bonus encryptions).  

 

Doesn't look that good anymore, no? So yes, considering the effort and expertise/skill required, I don't exactly agree with any reward nerfs of CM's - nor of what they symbolise in this case (moving rewards from tried and tested core- to unproven expansion content). Especially when as the devs say the MC's generated from CM's constitute just around 1-2% anyway. 

 

Now I personally quit daily CM's a long time ago and just play them - or anything at this point - for fun occasionally, so it's not like it's a hill I'm willing to die on, but I just don't see how this is healthy for the game, and I don't like to see more hardcore content dead and abandoned for no reason (and sometimes all it takes is a perception shift through a small nerf - although again, in this case CM's are already bad time and effort spent for gold gained pre-nerf).

 

[Ashen.2907]

On 2/11/2022 at 8:37 PM, Khisanth.2948 said:

The coins were removed because the devs felt that the fractals were too efficient for crafting a legendary.

 

If that were their concern they would have lowered the amount of coins earned in fractals, not removed them entirely. The, painfully obvious, reason for the removal is to encourage players currently engaging with fractals to switch to strike missions.

[The Boz.2038]

People seem to be misunderstanding ANet's claim about the largest/smallest source of MCoins in the game.

A source can be at the same tome "one of the largest single sources available" and "one of the smallest sources used". CM MCoins are, in fact, the largest single source in the game: no other source alone exceeds the 1/day of, say, LLA. If you want to increase your daily/weekly/monthly MCoin gains, this is the way to do it, and if you do it, you pretty much double it. You double your MCoin income by engaging in this one single activity. 
HOWEVER, a minority of the player population engaged in this one single activity. Fewer than 7% (likely fewer than 3).
So, on the "whole economy scale", this single source has generated very few MCoins, so it is small as an absolute source, but on the "player scale", it is the largest single source, provided you can do it daily, reliably.

[Zaxares.5419]

My personal stance on the matter is as follows: I am fully onboard with the idea of increasing MC availability in the game, and with giving regular/casual players easier access to crafting Legendaries. Adding MCs to EoD strikes sounds like a good idea! What I DON'T quite understand is why they also removed MCs from Frac CMs, especially if, as solar claims, there was only a (very) small percentage of players who were doing Frac CMs regularly anyway. Ultimately, while a bit annoying, the removal doesn't really bother me that much. My group will likely stop doing CMs daily, but we'll continue to run the CM when the Fractal itself is a daily. It's just no longer really worth the time to do all CMs daily since the majority of the CM loot is actually wallet currency (that can't be easily converted into additional loot) or account bound anyway.

 

As to the addition of MCs to strikes, one thing that remains uncertain is IF (and this is a big IF) EoD strikes will be easy/accessible enough that a large segment of the PvE population who didn't do strikes before starts doing them. If PvE players still stay away, then the proposed increase in MC supply will not happen. (I'll leave out the discussion for PvE endgame difficulty/accessibility for another day since that's a really complex and divisive issue on its own.)

 

With that in mind, I think ANet should also consider keeping on the cards additional potential avenues for Mystic Coins, in ways that would boost player participation throughout the game. For example, daily rewards currently include 2g for completing any 3 dailies. What about if on top of that, completing any 3 dailies in a particular category ALSO awards a Mystic Coin? Let's say Player A does Daily Ascalon Forager, Daily Kryta Vista, and Daily PvP Kills and gets his 2g. If he then also did Daily Queensdale Event (a 3rd PvE daily), he would also receive 1 Mystic Coin. If he then went and did Daily PvP Reward and Daily PvP Ranked Win (PvP dailies 2 and 3), he would get a SECOND Mystic Coin. This would incentivize players to also try out additional game modes they might not otherwise play, injecting much needed activity into PvP and WvW. We can also consider adding more daily MCs to things like Daily LS3/LS4/IBS in order to bring players back to otherwise largely-dead maps.

 

Would all this supply crush demand? Maybe, but I doubt it. Part of the reason why MC prices tend to remain high is because people farming them keep them for their own use and don't put them up for resale. Easier acquisition of MCs will likely also lead to increased demand as more players start on their Legendary journeys (a goal that ANet, by their own admission, is striving for). I would predict MC prices to fall somewhat from the new supply, but then stabilize, perhaps around the 1g mark, which is what I feel is a good baseline price for what's intended as a rare crafting currency.

[PseudoNewb.5468]

Why doesn't Anet make a weekly reward track (like the halloween and lunar new years ones) that grants you coins for doing either content? That would preserve most of the rewards for fractals, and allow strikes to have them, without making it possible to do both for more rewards. If strikes pay out faster, that would be incentive enough for the people who just grind for the rewards, while allowing dedicated fractal players to keep their piece of the pie.

[Banryuu.2156]

On 2/13/2022 at 10:24 AM, LucianDK.8615 said:

Overreacting, you are meant to do more content than just fractals alone.

That's why I'm doing raids and will do Strikes as well besides fractals and some open world stuff like map-metas. But there won't be much reason to do CMs anymore.