Bladesworn Dragontrigger PvP Power Coefficients Are a Joke

[Zuko.7132]

The power coefficients are ridiculously low for the amount of investment the burst skills require. 2 seconds of stationary charging followed by a half second cast time is required to reach maximum coefficient.

 

Dragon Slash Force

1. Minimum: .535
2. Maximum: 1.295 (2.5 seconds to pull off)

 

Dragon Slash Boost

1. Minimum: .429
2. Maximum: 1.037

 

Dragon Slash Reach

1. Minimum: .375
2. Maximum: .9075

 

Here are the coefficients for core wars primary power weapon bursts for comparison so you can see how bad these are. All of these skills come out much faster.

 

Eviscerate

1. Tier 1: 1.333 (Already stronger than the strongest Dragon Slash at max charge.)
2. Tier 2: 1.666
3. Tier 3: 2.0

 

Arcing  Slice

1. Above 50%: 1.213 (stronger than all but max charge Force
2. Below 50%: 1.82 (far and away stronger.)

 

I think the eviscerate coefficients are a good guide line. 2.0 for max Force. 1.666 for max Boost. 1.333 for max Reach.

 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Dragon trigger is an unblockable stun with a mixup (they don't know if you will melee, dash or ranged plus they don't know or when you are going to "release" it). This makes it not very comparable to a straight up 2.5 second cast skill for example (like say churning earth). Might still need a buff but let's wait and see.

Edited March 1, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

25 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Dragon trigger is an unblockable stun with a mixup (they don't know if you will melee, dash or ranged plus they don't know or when you are going to "release" it). This makes it not very comparable to a straight up 2.5 second cast skill for example (like say churning earth). Might still need a buff but let's wait and see.

Yes but a tiny CC/corruption and you've wasted all your time and effort getting the flow required and the charging.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Sadly it isn't just the DT skills that lack damage. All the gunsaber skills are weak, especially blooming fire--that's completely worthless.

 

I really wanted to like this spec, but it's just too clunky and too toothless to be competitive right now. 

[Loboling.5293]

If you run trashsaber in PvP, don't expect to win.

 

It's fun for running around in PvE for a bit, but it's not a spec that was designed for PvP. If they buff the coefficient to reasonable levels, it'll probably be too strong again silver and gold players. It's mechanics are just not made for PvP or wvw. Better to ask for buffs to spellbreaker, core warrior and zerker.

 

[Ragnar.4257]

Yes, lets give 1-shot levels of damage to a skill that ignores blind, is unblockable, stuns, and grants stability and aegis on use, and which is difficult to dodge given that it could either be the melee or the projectile version.

Because stuff having counter-play is sooooo 2013.

Can we also propose that it ignores invulnerability? Maybe it could log the target out?

Edited March 2, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[vilesoldier.9826]

46 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Yes, lets give 1-shot levels of damage to a skill that ignores blind, is unblockable, stuns, and grants stability and aegis on use, and which is difficult to dodge given that it could either be the melee or the projectile version.

could you elaborate on the difficulty to dodge dragon slash in melee and as a projectile?

cuz last i checked the timing restriction for any damage makes the skill remarkably easy to bait out, not to mention that the A and D keys are like...right there.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

But its an unblockable stun, its coefficient should be 0.01

[Ragnar.4257]

27 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

could you elaborate on the difficulty to dodge dragon slash in melee and as a projectile?

cuz last i checked the timing restriction for any damage makes the skill remarkably easy to bait out, not to mention that the A and D keys are like...right there.

Because if you time your dodge to dodge the melee rush, then if they use the projectile one you'll get caught by the projectile at the end of your dodge.

And what's A and D got to do with it? The direction they attack has no relation to the direction they're facing.

[vilesoldier.9826]

17 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Because if you time your dodge to dodge the melee rush, then if they use the projectile one you'll get caught by the projectile at the end of your dodge.

And what's A and D got to do with it? The direction they attack has no relation to the direction they're facing.

first point sounds like you are not baiting their dragon slash. What class do you play if I can ask?

(also really quick I was thinking that you were talking about "melee" as in Dragon slash force, but you're talking about the easy to see coming boost??

 

and really really quick "timing your dodge to dodge the melee rush" and them using a completely different skill while they sit there isn't timing your dodge. you just dodged.)

second point is about sidestepping the projectile. Press A and/or D.

Edited March 2, 2022 by GeneralBM.5781

[Ragnar.4257]

34 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

first point sounds like you are not baiting their dragon slash. What class do you play if I can ask?

(also really quick I was thinking that you were talking about "melee" as in Dragon slash force, but you're talking about the easy to see coming boost??)

second point is about sidestepping the projectile. Press A and/or D.

And how would you bait dragon-slash other than by dodging? You can't blind it, you can't block it, you can't interrupt it (unless necro).

It's very simple, I've been caught several times where I dodged as soon as I saw them release the dragon-slash, which is necessary if it's Force or Boost, and have been caught coming out the end of my dodge by the slower projectile.

I'm not saying its impossible to dodge, but it's not as trivial as you're making it sound. It is nothing at all like dodging, say, Churning Earth. If they mix it up during the game between all 3, it's essentially a dice-roll on whether it lands or not, for both players.

And the projectile is far too fast to move out the way of by walking. What next, you gonna recommend people to side-step True Shot? Unless, maybe if you've got superspeed. But I have just tested it on running targets at max range, and it hits every time. WSAD is not a counterplay.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[vilesoldier.9826]

43 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

And how would you bait dragon-slash other than by dodging? You can't blind it, you can't block it, you can't interrupt it (unless necro).

hm

(stow a high cast time skill, use low cast time skill, use unblockable damage (why I asked your class), wait for shadowstep) + dodge.

while none is full-proof, they make a bladesworn guess just as much as you do.

43 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

It's very simple, I've been caught several times where I dodged as soon as I saw them release the dragon-slash, which is necessary if it's Force or Boost, and have been caught coming out the end of my dodge by the slower projectile.

((I hate talking about this spec bc everything about its mechanic is so situational))

Depending on your distance, obviously you are going to expect a narrower variety of slashes that could be released.

If you're saying you're far enough that Boost and/or Reach are better options, then both are fairly easy to dodge. Boost is just a faster Warrior gs 5 with a flashy animation that's easy to recognize, and the projectile is a projectile. Obviously the bladesworn can use whatever they want and delay the timing if they're smart, but with Boost and Reach they should be easy to tell apart once released. you actually don't have to dodge right on release if you are at the distance that you're claiming (especially if its far enough that they are choosing Reach of all things)

 

43 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

I'm not saying its impossible to dodge, but it's not as trivial as you're making it sound. It is nothing at all like dodging, say, Churning Earth.

It's also not a trivial thing to land. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by GeneralBM.5781

[Ragnar.4257]

4 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

hm

(stow a high cast time skill, use low cast time skill, use unblockable damage (why I asked your class), wait for shadowstep) + dodge.

while none is full-proof, they make a bladesworn guess just as much as you do.

((I hate talking about this spec bc everything about its mechanic is so situational))

Depending on your distance, obviously you are going to expect a narrower variety of slashes that could be released.

If you're saying you're far enough that Boost and/or Reach are better options, then both are fairly easy to dodge. Boost is just a faster Warrior gs 5 with a flashy animation that's easy to recognize, and the projectile is a projectile. Obviously the bladesworn can use whatever they want and delay the timing if they're smart, but with Boost and Reach they should be easy to tell apart once released. you actually don't have to dodge right on release if you are at the distance that you're claiming.

 

It's also not a trivial thing to land. 

Given that it already ignores 100% of my class' defence mechancis (blind, block) and already hits for 70% of my HP, I'm not super-keen on buffing that up to 100% of my HP. "Just dodge" is not a sufficient argument for a skill that ignores all defense and 1-shots.

Or would you be totally cool if True Shot had it's damage doubled, and made unblockable, and ignores blind, and grants stability on cast? Yeah, I thought not.

[Curennos.9307]

Is the coefficient meh? Yes.

 

Is Unyielding Dragon bloated and could probably stand to lose unblockable? Also probably yes.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

It. Can. Be. JUMPED. Over.

 

Also last I checked stability corrupts into fear, so there would still be plenty of counterplay to I even if Dragon Scale gave 10 stacks of stability.

 

[Ragnar.4257]

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It. Can. Be. JUMPED. Over.

 

Also last I checked stability corrupts into fear, so there would still be plenty of counterplay to I even if Dragon Scale gave 10 stacks of stability.

 

Look, I know we were going that way, but 100% of playebase is not actually necro.

I really do not get how you can think a skill that already hits for 7-8k, is unblockable, unblindable, uninterruptible, needs *more* damage.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Given that it already ignores 100% of my class' defence mechancis (blind, block) and already hits for 70% of my HP, I'm not super-keen on buffing that up to 100% of my HP. "Just dodge" is not a sufficient argument for a skill that ignores all defense and 1-shots.

good thing I never said "Just dodge" huh

Also don't say one-shot like ur 8k health glass guardian build is even viable.

 

One spec goes through block and suddenly guardians are in shambles. Watch your opponent and don't tank hits like the rest of us.

 

3 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Or would you be totally cool if True Shot had it's damage doubled, and made unblockable, and ignores blind, and grants stability on cast? Yeah, I thought not.

are they keeping their cast time too? cuz if so, I'm dodging.

[Ragnar.4257]

28 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

good thing I never said "Just dodge" huh

Also don't say one-shot like ur 8k health glass guardian build is even viable.

 

One spec goes through block and suddenly guardians are in shambles. Watch your opponent and don't tank hits like the rest of us.

 

are they keeping their cast time too? cuz if so, I'm dodging.

Lol? I'm fine with it as it is. I'm just not fine with it having its damage doubled.

And you've yet to propose any other counter other than dodge. You understand that "jUsT dOdGe" is a meme, right?

And, of course, yes, True Shot is practically impossible to land, that's why the forums haven't been awash with QQ about DH for the last year.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[vilesoldier.9826]

21 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Lol? I'm fine with it as it is. I'm just not fine with it having its damage doubled.

refer back to vv

28 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

don't say one-shot like ur 8k health glass guardian build is even viable.

That hypothetical double damage Dragon slash isn't one-shotting you, you just have 8k health in pvp. A breeze is downing you.

 

But in all seriousness, "double damage" BS isn't even what's being suggested, OP is only suggesting increasing the max.

((actually unsure how exactly the dmg scaling works, but we can make sure it's exponential and not linear don't worry))

Edited March 2, 2022 by GeneralBM.5781

[Ragnar.4257]

1 minute ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

refer back to vv

That hypothetical double damage Dragon slash isn't one-shotting you, you just have 8k health in pvp. A breeze is downing you.

 

But in all seriousness, "double damage" BS isn't even what's being suggested, OP is only suggesting increasing the max.

((actually unsure how exactly the dmg scaling works, but we can make sure it's exponential and not linear don't worry))

 

 

There's no such thing as an 8k HP build in PvP, do you even know what you're talking about.

And doubling the damage is exactly what he was talking about, if the current max co-eff is 1, and he's proposing to use the Eviscerate coeff, which is 2...... hmmmmmm. 1 x 2 = ..........

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

There's no such thing as an 8k HP build in PvP, do you even know what you're talking about.

And doubling the damage is exactly what he was talking about, if the current max co-eff is 1, and he's proposing to use the Eviscerate coeff, which is 2...... hmmmmmm. 1 x 2 = ..........

I'm sure it feels that way losing 70% health from a Dragon Slash Reach

 

is the current max coefficient for Force a 1?

[Ragnar.4257]

8 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

I'm sure it feels that way losing 70% health from a Dragon Slash Reach

 

is the current max coefficient for Force a 1?

It's in the very first post. Again, I'm having serious doubts about reading comprehension.

Again, having a skill with the same damage output as Level-3 Eviscerate, that is also unblockable, and unblindable, and uninterruptile, and is a 2s stun, would be just ludicrous, no matter how many times you post "jUsT d0dGe".

Edited March 2, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[vilesoldier.9826]

44 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

It's in the very first post. Again, I'm having serious doubts about reading comprehension.

Again, having a skill with the same damage output as Level-3 Eviscerate, that is also unblockable, and unblindable, and uninterruptile, and is a 2s stun, would be just ludicrous, no matter how many times you don't post "jUsT d0dGe".

1.295 is 1?

dang your chem teacher never hammered home sig figs huh

Edited March 2, 2022 by GeneralBM.5781

[Ragnar.4257]

5 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

1.295 is 1?

dang your chem teacher never hammered home sig figs huh

If you really want to split that hair, then fine, yes, congrats, its 1.295, not 1. Doesn't change the conclusion that a more than 50% damage buff would take it into 1-shot territory, which would be unacceptable on a skill that is also unblockable, unblindable, uninterruptile, and stuns.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Bazsi.2734]

Yes please make unblockable CC hit harder please!