Virtuoso not really burst rather amazing sustain (Final Analysis)

[Mell.4873]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABgyh3llyYZtsVmLOULdxSA-zRJYiRPfZURFkeKo2q8bA-e

The opener you want is to Temporal Curtain on groups or Phantasmal Swordsman on bosses.
Then Sword of Decimation (if boss add Psychic Force and Counter Blade until defiance bar broken) then into Rain of Swords Finally Bladesong Harmony.

You will essentially repeat this with the idea in mind to have the enemy under a controlling effect (not using skills) when releasing Bladesong Harmony otherwise you wont get the 50% damage increase from Mental Anguish

Over all in terms of PVE numbers you can pretty consistently get 6k dps without any downtime. The burst can get as high as 9k without boons but can get crazy high with a group providing support buffs, 15k+. The real strength like i pointed out is there is no drop off in damage like chrono, it has good consistent power numbers much like mirage condition numbers (which are higher)

I will add that the numbers might seem small but a couple of traits don't work correctly yet mainly Empowered Illusions.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Senqu.8054]

Mell is really trying to sell Virt at this point 😅

[Levetty.1279]

54 minutes ago, Senqu.8054 said:

Mell is really trying to sell Virt at this point 😅

Dude he is doing 6k dps. 6k!

[phokus.8934]

Big yikes.  On 5 mob groups I can burst up to 100k and sustain at 25k.

This build is pretty bad and not maximizing full damage which is what you should be doing in pve.

[Thornbury.4179]

I'd been experimenting with a few different build suggestions on my mesmer, and I'm liking this build, so thanks for posting it. I haven't got Marauder's so I'm just using the Steelstar set I had for boon support on my chrono and it's working fine. I'm having less problems on larger packs now.

 

The one thing I didn't like was the dagger in both weapon sets, so I'm probably going to switch one of them out.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Thornbury.4179 said:

The one thing I didn't like was the dagger in both weapon sets, so I'm probably going to switch one of them out.

Swap out the one that's paired with a sword and go sword/sword.

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

Big yikes.  On 5 mob groups I can burst up to 100k and sustain at 25k.

This build is pretty bad and not maximizing full damage which is what you should be doing in pve.

Well I meant one mob, i mean in comparison chrono with the best rotation in game (no raid buffs) can get about 15k with burst and can be as low 3k trying to sustain. There is massive range with chrono which is bad for pve, you want sustain.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

7 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

Mell is really trying to sell Virt at this point 😅

If anything I'm not trying to sell it since the most obvious use which is burst is really bad.

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Swap out the one that's paired with a sword and go sword/sword.

Yeah I might eventually but I will get used to dagger before I do. The best combo is Sword/Focus and Dagger/Sword so you can maintain the Fencer's Finesse.

[otto.5684]

I do not think damage output is an issue. Though consistently of damage is any issue for skill 3 and elite skill. The survivability is very bad. No utility. The condi is tacked on and is poorly established. Design issues, bonus damage for being in close range, on a long range elite. Access to fury is cumbersome, even though elite damage is heavily reliant on it.

To not be totally negative, burst is good, visually awesome, it diversifies mesmer gameplay. 
Note, this is only from PvE standpoint.

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

I do not think damage output is an issue. Though consistently of damage is any issue for skill 3 and elite skill. The survivability is very bad. No utility. The condi is tacked on and is poorly established. Design issues, bonus damage for being in close range, on a long range elite. Access to fury is cumbersome, even though elite damage is heavily reliant on it.

To not be totally negative, burst is good, visually awesome, it diversifies mesmer gameplay. 
Note, this is only from PvE standpoint.

Yeah I needs some work, I think the condition damage is fine if its in service of stocking blades, which currently its all buggy due to trait interactions.

I honestly find the burst lacking, rather the low cooldowns means you can get back to the high damage rather quickly. Chronomancer in particular has more highs and lows. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Mell.4873

[phokus.8934]

8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Yeah I needs some work, I think the condition damage is fine if its in service of stocking blades, which currently its all buggy due to trait interactions.

I honestly find the burst lacking, rather the low cooldowns means you can get back to the high damage rather quickly. Chronomancer in particular has more highs and lows. 

You're clearly not playing Virtuoso right and not geared or traited properly.  Virt has higher burst damage than Chrono and Mirage - you cannot argue facts and it's true whether you believe it or not.

[necromaniac.7629]

lost me at sword of decimation💀

[otto.5684]

6 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

You're clearly not playing Virtuoso right and not geared or traited properly.  Virt has higher burst damage than Chrono and Mirage - you cannot argue facts and it's true whether you believe it or not.

It depends how you define “burst.” For pvp I agree. Burst here is how fast you can do 30-40k, usually in ~3 secs. So, sure it is ahead. PvE there are two angles to burst, how fast you jump between trash mobs and how fast you can eliminate something in 10-15 secs. The first Virtuoso has edge over chrono. The later surely favors chrono.
 

Again, I do not think the damage output is Virtuoso’s main issue. It is really lacking in sustain. 

[Thornbury.4179]

So the thread title is "amazing sustain" and Otto posts above "It is really lacking in sustain".

 

I'm generally finding this build more survivable than most I've tried, but I do occasionally get overwhelmed (E.g. the HP Ministry of Archives in Soojung Heights just rinses me).

 

What sustain elements should I be using? Shatter 4 is a nice block and Sword 4 blocks too. I have the runes to heal on block which helps, but wondered if I was missing anything in my playstyle to increase sustain?

[Levetty.1279]

4 hours ago, Thornbury.4179 said:

So the thread title is "amazing sustain" and Otto posts above "It is really lacking in sustain".

 

I'm generally finding this build more survivable than most I've tried, but I do occasionally get overwhelmed (E.g. the HP Ministry of Archives in Soojung Heights just rinses me).

 

What sustain elements should I be using? Shatter 4 is a nice block and Sword 4 blocks too. I have the runes to heal on block which helps, but wondered if I was missing anything in my playstyle to increase sustain?

It has no sustain. Its one of the squishiest classes in the game.

Shatter 4 is probably the worst skill in the game, I haven't used it a single time and not died straight after.

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

The fact that your F4 block consumes all your blades for a damage increase is hilariously bad. Its not even a good damage increase either. Can't even apply decent counter pressure. If it applied some good damage it would be  different story. In all honesty, it shouldn't have a channel.

 

Losing clones and distortion is huge for Mesmer's survivability. 

[OriOri.8724]

4 hours ago, Thornbury.4179 said:

So the thread title is "amazing sustain" and Otto posts above "It is really lacking in sustain".

 

I'm generally finding this build more survivable than most I've tried, but I do occasionally get overwhelmed (E.g. the HP Ministry of Archives in Soojung Heights just rinses me).

 

What sustain elements should I be using? Shatter 4 is a nice block and Sword 4 blocks too. I have the runes to heal on block which helps, but wondered if I was missing anything in my playstyle to increase sustain?

If you want sustain use chrono or mirage. Virtuoso is designed to have no sustain. And losing distortion on F4 is one of the biggest sustain nerfs I've ever seen in this game. Its insane how poorly thought out that was

[Senqu.8054]

first place is still removal of endurance bar but this comes pretty close to it. But the virt trade offs are in general out of this world and always end with „but wait, there is more *exiting cmc noises*“

 

Functionality not given after 3 blade in some cases

Functionality not given after 5 blades in some cases

Full F1 does less damage

F3 does less daze

F4 no distort

Shatters are now reflectable

Shatters have now cast time

Shatters have now travel time 

Little to none access to boons

No clone deception

No clone passive damage

Elite provides 0 beside damage

 

BUT We CaN sToRe ClOnEs / BlAdEs NoW

 

Virtuoso is the biggest joke in game history ever

Edited March 7, 2022 by Senqu.8054

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

22 minutes ago, Senqu.8054 said:

first place is still removal of endurance bar but this comes pretty close to it. But the virt trade offs are in general out of this world and always end with „but wait, there is more *exiting cmc noises*“

 

Functionality not given after 3 blade in some cases

Functionality not given after 5 blades in some cases

Full F1 does less damage

F3 does less daze

F4 no distort

Shatters are now reflectable

Shatters have now cast time

Shatters have now travel time 

Little to none access to boons

No clone deception

No clone passive damage

Elite provides 0 beside damage

 

BUT We CaN sToRe ClOnEs / BlAdEs NoW

 

Virtuoso is the biggest joke in game history ever

Don't forget F1 and F3 regularly miss moving or strafing targets

[Tseison.4659]

2 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

first place is still removal of endurance bar but this comes pretty close to it. But the virt trade offs are in general out of this world and always end with „but wait, there is more *exiting cmc noises*“

 

Functionality not given after 3 blade in some cases

Functionality not given after 5 blades in some cases

Full F1 does less damage

F3 does less daze

F4 no distort

Shatters are now reflectable

Shatters have now cast time

Shatters have now travel time 

Little to none access to boons

No clone deception

No clone passive damage

Elite provides 0 beside damage

 

BUT We CaN sToRe ClOnEs / BlAdEs NoW

 

Virtuoso is the biggest joke in game history ever

Additionally, Anet contradicts themselves a lot with having Illusions/Clones = Blades and yet, there are still a few Clone/Illusion affecting traits that do not translate to Blades such as the empowered illusions.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Tseison.4659

[Mell.4873]

There is no point arguing any points here it is just what I found. The burst in my opinion is lacking rather the sustain over a long period of time is pretty good.

I normally see virtuoso come out on top after everyone has preformed their 20k burst rotation during a pve boss.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Curunen.8729]

I would say it's a more layered issue from the design.

Sure I haven't had much time to play so going off some memory of beta also.

The many cast times, camera work, and inherent lack of facetank from core mesmer - meaning reliance on clutch survival tools again mostly from core mesmer, nevermind lower effectiveness of long cool down stealth due to no clones, made more challenging by limited mobility, lead to awkward and disjointed play with too many holes.

Not even mentioning majority of damage being projectiles (because unlike eg LB ranger which can have non projectile burst on say maul, in terms of wvw and by extension pvp, all core mesmer relies on shatters for damage with weapons filling in some downtime or mostly utility). And on this note referencing mortrialus in another thread where loss of clones directly nerfing staff and scepter auto (tbh stocked blades could increase weapon damage/condi by x% per blade simulating active clones) kind of forces even more reliance on this.

Sure it's good they didn't make this spec absurdly strong as some previous spec builds, but currently there's little incentive to play beyond "oooh shiny" to quote any skritt.

It's an intricate mess, I appreciate giving many skills cast times to address the usual complaints of "mesmer faceroll insta burst", however this needs to come hand in hand with better ways to stay in combat - whether offensively in terms of more control, or defensively.

I believe the former would be good - the spec should be staying back and being a controlling puppet master with pulls etc, lining up/grouping/disabling enemies while raining blades at them.

Otherwise it's very easy to kitten all over this spec because of all of the above.

For the record in terms of pve I think these issues are less of an issue and the spec is workable, though personally mirage is kitten easy in comparison.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I would say it's a more layered issue from the design.

Sure I haven't had much time to play so going off some memory of beta also.

The many cast times, camera work, and inherent lack of facetank from core mesmer - meaning reliance on clutch survival tools again mostly from core mesmer, nevermind lower effectiveness of long cool down stealth due to no clones, made more challenging by limited mobility, lead to awkward and disjointed play with too many holes.

Not even mentioning majority of damage being projectiles (because unlike eg LB ranger which can have non projectile burst on say maul, in terms of wvw and by extension pvp, all core mesmer relies on shatters for damage with weapons filling in some downtime or mostly utility). And on this note referencing mortrialus in another thread where loss of clones directly nerfing staff and scepter auto (tbh stocked blades could increase weapon damage/condi by x% per blade simulating active clones) kind of forces even more reliance on this.

Sure it's good they didn't make this spec absurdly strong as some previous spec builds, but currently there's little incentive to play beyond "oooh shiny" to quote any skritt.

It's an intricate mess, I appreciate giving many skills cast times to address the usual complaints of "mesmer faceroll insta burst", however this needs to come hand in hand with better ways to stay in combat - whether offensively in terms of more control, or defensively.

I believe the former would be good - the spec should be staying back and being a controlling puppet master with pulls etc, lining up/grouping/disabling enemies while raining blades at them.

Otherwise it's very easy to kitten all over this spec because of all of the above.

For the record in terms of pve I think these issues are less of an issue and the spec is workable, though personally mirage is kitten easy in comparison.

Good breakdown and I did really enjoy it initially and still do it's just my mastery of Chronomancer is at the point where I can easily outperform Virtuoso. 

It has potential but needs some tweeking and bug fixes. I can see it formaly being a super sustain mesmer rather than a one shoting chrono or high damage ambushes from mirage. The simple fact that blades don't disappear lends itself more to sustain over long encounters.