WHAT TO FIX ON VIRTUOSO (04/13 Update)

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

This is from a PvP perspective but I think these would work well for PvE as well. I'm trying to avoid suggesting big fundamental reworks because they take more development time.

GENERAL (problems that I have also heard mirrored by others)

• Virtuoso has no option to deal with line-of-sight. Core Mesmer is also weak to LoS but has Sword 3 and AoE shatters that counters it. Compare to Ranger which is also susceptible to LoS but can deal with it with Pets, Barrage, Maul (which goes through walls), Smoke Assault and so on.
• Unbalanced traits, the top row of defensive traits (Bladeturn Refrain, Duelist's Reversal and Psychic Riposte) are almost required on every PvP build.
• Relying on your opponent to hit you in order to proc your traits makes for unversatile and clunky gameplay. Misha and Zeromis talked about this on Twitch as well. That might work for Guardian or Warrior but not so much for a squishier class like Mesmer that often likes to use positioning and mobility to avoid damage. It disincentives you from playing anything but high-sustain close-range builds.
• Dagger is very weak to kiting (in addition to LoS) despite being a 1200 range weapon because Flying Cutter misses strafing targets at range, Bladecall only really does damage in melee, and Unstable Bladestorm travels along the ground, travels very slowly, and disappears completely upon touching a wall. In addition to being countered by projectile denial of course.
• The heal/utilities/elite are generally poor except for Blade Renewal.

                                                                                                                                                                          

CHANGES (rough priority list)

The general idea of the traits is that in the top row suits a defensive, close-range playstyle, the middle row suits a roamer playstyle, and the bottom row suits a teamfight damage / condition playstyle.

The reason the utilities are so low is because you can still play and enjoy Virtuoso very well with core utilities/heals/elites - the utilities aren't as integral as the traits or Bladesongs.

Bugfixes

• See list below

Bladesong Harmony

• Allow it to be used without a target (important for counterplay to stealth, for cleansing/healing with inspiration without a target and many other reasons).
• Consider: lower cast time to 1/2 seconds.

Bladesong Sorrow

• Allow it to be used without a target.
• Because the blades "shoot out to the side" first, it is often obstructed even though your enemy is in clear sight if you are standing near a wall, for example.

Bladesong Dissonance

• Fix accuracy.
• Consider: stun instead of daze. If not, add piercing like the other Bladesongs.

Unstable Bladestorm

• Has several flaws and ideally needs some heavy changes.

  • Can be strafed even with in "walk" mode.
  • Can be jumped over
  • Moves slowly
  • Obstructed easily
  • Destroyed by a single block / aegis.
  • Strange line-of-sight bugs sometimes.
• Consider: Make it travel a bit faster. Make it bounce off of walls instead of disappearing. Make only the small bolts count as projectiles but not the main storm. Superspeed to allies who walk through the storm.
• Alternative rework idea: Same storm animation but it is a ground-targeted AoE similar to Symbol of Punishment or Sword of Justice. Add cripple. This makes dagger more reliable at range and provides a way to deal with LoS, kiting, and projectile denial all in one. Three birds with one stone.

Blade Leap

• Fix accuracy. A way to do this is to copy the animation from Monarch's Leap on ranger. It has the same range and everything, but hits way more reliably.

Psychic Riposte

• Add some method of gaining unblockable Bladesongs that doesn't rely on enemy action and doesn't force you into a specific grandmaster trait.
• Alternatively make the Bladesongs immune to reflect by default then remove the unblockable effect from this trait.

Phantasmal Blades

• Increase fury duration to 8 seconds.
• Consider: Add a second or two of quickness.

Sharpening Sorrow

• Increase fury to 10 seconds or make it 3 seconds per blade.
• Consider: Add two stacks of might per blade (makes the trait more versatile because it can be used for either power or condition builds).
• Alternative: Change to condition damage instead of expertise or double the expertise to 300.

Bladeturn Requiem

• Is the block supposed to be 1 1/2 seconds or 2 seconds? Fix tooltip/clarify.
• Consider: Increase damage (so that it actually works as melee counterpressure vs Daredevil, Herald, Willbender, and so on).
• Alternative: Add stunbreak (Virtuoso is weak to CC compared to other Mesmers, which means you are fairly locked into Blink + Signet of Midnight, this would increase options).

Bladecall

• Improve accuracy / hit registration somewhat.
• Consider: Make it bounce a bit faster instead of "sticking" to the ground/wall for a second before returning. Otherwise the trick CMC showed with throwing it into the ground only works if the target stands still for more than a second.
• Alternative: If possible, make it a flip skill that you first throw out and then you can choose when to return the daggers. I think it was Zeromis who suggested this.

Mental Focus

• Consider: Merge into Infinite Forge (making it the power grandmaster as opposed to the defensive grandmaster Psychic Riposte and the condition grandmaster Bloodsong). Remove range restriction.
• New trait idea: "Swift Blades: Run faster while wielding a blade weapon. Movement Speed Increase: 25%". Similar to Warrior's Sprint but instead of melee weapons it is for blade weapons (dagger, greatsword, sword). Anything else that that improves mobility (swiftness/superspeed) would also be welcome.

Jagged Mind

• Consider: Merge into Bloodsong (currently if you take Bloodsong you must also take Jagged Mind which limits options).
• New trait idea: Something for Psionics perhaps. Since most of the Psionics are big AoEs this would profile the bottom row as "the teamfight row" - the Bloodsong blade generation is already more effective when you are attacking a greater number of enemies.

Mirror Blade

• Consider: Increase bounce range (because virtuoso loses the clone that it normally bounces off of).

Psychic Force

• Consider: Add 1/2 evade (otherwise, you will often get hit before the cast goes through unless you dodge and thus cancel the skill. This would also make it not-useless against ranged foes).

Twin Blade Restoration

• Too weak for a conditional heal.
• Consider: Make the condition removal guaranteed but the boons can remain conditional.

Flying Cutter

• Consider: Fix projectile tracking and/or increase projectile speed.

Sword of Decimation

• Lower aftercast (currently it takes 1.33 seconds to land but the tooltips says 0.5 seconds).
• Consider: increase damage but lower the bonus on disabled to 50% or 0% (that way it can be used to counter LoS which Virtuoso sorely needs).

Rain of Swords

• Consider: Add cripple (like Ranger's Barrage).

Thousand Cuts

• Make it more clear where the effect area is (add ground indicator).
• Consider: Increase width of area slightly.

Infinite Forge

• I don't have a big problem with Infinite Forge but it is a passive trait with huge value so here is an idea for a more interactive trait: "Skills that stock blades, stock an additional blade on use" i.e. Phantasms would convert into two blades, Mirror Images would give three blades, Bladecall would give two blades, and so on.

Blade Renewal

• Might be too strong once the other stuff has been fixed, for now a needed crutch.

                                                                                                                                                                          

BUGS

Bladesong Harmony and Bladesong Sorrow

• Cannot be used without a target but Bladesong Dissonance can.

Bladesong Dissonance

• Misses targets who are moving.
• Doesn't get a damage increase with Mental Anguish.

Bladeturn Requiem

• Doesn't get a damage increase with Mental Anguish.
• Tooltip says "block duration 3 seconds" with Master of Fragmentations but the actual duration stays the same
• Cast time is 1 1/2 seconds but block time is 2 seconds.

Deadly Blades and Jagged Mind

• Do not work with sword skills.

Psychic Riposte

• Sometimes your Bladesong is blocked or reflected even though you have the unblockable effect from this trait (clip).

Blade Leap

• Regularly misses targets even if they are standing still.
• Still displays the "Swap" tooltip with the immobilize, which isn't usable on Virtuoso.

Flying Cutter

• "Flurry of blades" effect doesn't work on players in the downed state.

Blade Renewal

• Doesn't trigger Auspicious Anguish (condition removal), Master of Fragmentation (reflect), or Inspiring Distortion (aegis).

Thousand Cuts

• Uses Chronomancer AoE indicator.

Sword of Decimation

• If interrupted/cancelled at the end of the cast it causes no effect but goes on full cooldown. Fixed, I think?

                                                                                                                                                                          

EDIT

04/13: Reformatting, added video clips, some changes

Edited April 14, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I don't think it's enough to make it playable but still better than nothing I suppose. 

Regarding F3 it doesn't solve the issue. It needs to be an instant cast + no time travel, this skill makes it blatantly obvious CMC doesn't have a clue regarding game balance.

Unstable bladestorm - make it so it doesn't dissipate as soon as it hits aegis too. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Hopefully those changes will be for PvP only because those are horrid for WvW as if its not bad enough.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

38 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I don't think it's enough to make it playable but still better than nothing I suppose. 

Regarding F3 it doesn't solve the issue. It needs to be an instant cast + no time travel, this skill makes it blatantly obvious CMC doesn't have a clue regarding game balance.

Unstable bladestorm - make it so it doesn't dissipate as soon as it hits aegis too. 

Thnx for pointing out F3, I was going to say to make it a stun but I forgot - edited op. I don't think CMC has a heavy hand in the skill design, that's a different team. You are right about Unstable Bladestorm, I just didn't note it because I suggested a rework, but I'll add it.

Edited March 7, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

I added an idea to make Bladeturn Requiem a stunbreak because Virtuoso is super weak to hard CC compared to every other Mesmer spec due to lack of instant skills including Distortion.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

8 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Thnx for pointing out F3, I was going to say to make it a stun but I forgot - edited op. I don't think CMC has a heavy hand in the skill design, that's a different team. You are right about Unstable Bladestorm, I just didn't note it because I suggested a rework, but I'll add it.

AFAIK CMC is in charge of all numbers, hence its is fault, the skill would be fine if it had no cast time and no travel time. 

Its mind boggling how someone made an interrupt that can't rupt Jack kitten. 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

AFAIK CMC is in charge of all numbers, hence its is fault, the skill would be fine if it had no cast time and no travel time. 

Its mind boggling how someone made an interrupt that can't rupt Jack kitten. 

Nah only dmg and cd not cast time or travel time because those aren't split between pve and pvp

Edited March 7, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Added an issue that I forgot about: allowing Bladesong Harmony and Bladesong Sorrow to be used without a target. Also added a suggestion to make Bladesong Dissonance pierce like Bladesong Harmony and Bladesong Sorrow do.

[Infusion.7149]

I skimmed it, but from last beta my thoughts:
*unstable bladestorm / dagger 3 should actually be able to hit a target
* Rain of swords is unlikely to be used in PVP IMO, more likely in WVW. It should be roughly on par with necro wells damage-wise.
* F3 (Bladesong Dissonance) is strictly worse than core shatter unless unblockable since you use all your blades
* Sword of Decimation : have it finish downed in WVW if not PVP

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 3/8/2022 at 9:40 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

I skimmed it, but from last beta my thoughts:
*unstable bladestorm / dagger 3 should actually be able to hit a target

I honestly feel like there's no saving it without a rework but yeah.

 

[Shiyo.3578]

On 3/7/2022 at 8:54 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

this skill makes it blatantly obvious CMC doesn't have a clue regarding game balance.

He doesn't balance the game, the skills team does.

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

He doesn't balance the game, the skills team does.

He is the lead of the balancing team so many of the final decisions are run by him.

[Shiyo.3578]

5 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

He is the lead of the balancing team so many of the final decisions are run by him.

He isn't, he's just a face people like.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

He doesn't balance the game, the skills team does.

As far as I was told by someone who used to be on pvp discord, CMC was in charge of all numbers. 

[Infusion.7149]

10 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I honestly feel like there's no saving it without a rework but yeah.

 

It's an openworld PVE spec that happens to have good performance on power-oriented bosses that phase. The lack of clones makes it more fragile especially since the joke of aegis on bladesongs is more or less the only sustain on virtuoso traitline , but at the same time prestocked blades results in higher burst and less annoyance compared to using clones versus trash mobs. If you look at logs for this patch, virtuoso performs on par with holo and soulbeast in strikes and power-oriented raids (such as Vale Guardian, Keep Construct , Samarog, Conjured Amalgamate) generally. What holo has is barrier on Corona Burst as well as resustain from losing heat ; soulbeast has a passive lifesteal if you are using daggers to apply poison.

That doesn't excuse some obvious bugs such as the dagger 3 not tracking properly and bladesongs in general being hit or miss in the literal sense (especially the one the dazes), but you have to understand what the point of the spec is which is glass cannon DPS.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

If I could adjust the shatters, I would:

F1 - Bladesong Harmony: Increase velocity by ~20-33%. Possibly reduce cast time to 0.5s like you mentioned OP.

F2 - Bladesong Sorrow: Remove the piercing effect. Instead, each blade explodes in a 240-unit radius around the target. Gives it a reliable AoE component as the piercing effect is awkward due to how the spell works and where the blades travel from.

F3 - Bladesong Dissonance: Give it 2 charges. Now behaves like Elementalist's "Comet" rather than a poorly-tracking projectile. The current iteration is a total joke.

F4 - Bladeturn Requiem: Either massively increase the damage or give it a condition cleanse per blade used. 

 

I'd like to see GS2 gain a unique functionality like Sw3 as you get no bounce from it if you use it on a solo mob out of bounce range.

 

Would be nice to see Thousand Cuts get an increased size. is Prime Light Beam size too much to ask for? Possibly lol, but it is so thin right now.

 

Would also be nice for Psychic Force to get an evade component to cover the cast time. Still don't know if I'd use it but at least that way you can't be CC'd mid-cast. I don't think a short stack of stab would be enough to justify slotting it over another stunbreak, but an evade may.

 

Rain of Swords & Sword of Decimation I agree both feel undertuned. Max I have gotten while nearly full glass is like 5k Sword of Decimation on a downstate, but generally it's between like 1.5k and 3k which is super weak for a skill that has an interaction with downstate. Rain of Swords should be close in strength to Necro's Well of Suffering as @Infusion.7149 mentioned.

[Salt Mode.3780]

I actually like the suggestions for the shatters tho i would just say rework the elite its a total joke...

[Yoci.2481]

On 3/11/2022 at 11:01 PM, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

If I could adjust the shatters, I would:

F1 - Bladesong Harmony: Increase velocity by ~20-33%. Possibly reduce cast time to 0.5s like you mentioned OP.

F2 - Bladesong Sorrow: Remove the piercing effect. Instead, each blade explodes in a 240-unit radius around the target. Gives it a reliable AoE component as the piercing effect is awkward due to how the spell works and where the blades travel from.

F3 - Bladesong Dissonance: Give it 2 charges. Now behaves like Elementalist's "Comet" rather than a poorly-tracking projectile. The current iteration is a total joke.

F4 - Bladeturn Requiem: Either massively increase the damage or give it a condition cleanse per blade used. 

 

I'd like to see GS2 gain a unique functionality like Sw3 as you get no bounce from it if you use it on a solo mob out of bounce range.

 

Would be nice to see Thousand Cuts get an increased size. is Prime Light Beam size too much to ask for? Possibly lol, but it is so thin right now.

 

Would also be nice for Psychic Force to get an evade component to cover the cast time. Still don't know if I'd use it but at least that way you can't be CC'd mid-cast. I don't think a short stack of stab would be enough to justify slotting it over another stunbreak, but an evade may.

 

Rain of Swords & Sword of Decimation I agree both feel undertuned. Max I have gotten while nearly full glass is like 5k Sword of Decimation on a downstate, but generally it's between like 1.5k and 3k which is super weak for a skill that has an interaction with downstate. Rain of Swords should be close in strength to Necro's Well of Suffering as @Infusion.7149 mentioned.

I like those ideas. 🙂

[FarmBotXD.1430]

F3 should either be instant daze ( duration scales with blades )
or cast time + travel time STUN that applies vulnerability depending on number of blades, otherwise its unusable trash

[Entropo.1524]

 just make me able to cast it without havint to face the target, gs4 and gs2 both are projectiles and u can cast both without facing the target, its so clunky when u cant

 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 3/11/2022 at 11:01 PM, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

If I could adjust the shatters, I would:

F1 - Bladesong Harmony: Increase velocity by ~20-33%. Possibly reduce cast time to 0.5s like you mentioned OP.

F2 - Bladesong Sorrow: Remove the piercing effect. Instead, each blade explodes in a 240-unit radius around the target. Gives it a reliable AoE component as the piercing effect is awkward due to how the spell works and where the blades travel from.

F3 - Bladesong Dissonance: Give it 2 charges. Now behaves like Elementalist's "Comet" rather than a poorly-tracking projectile. The current iteration is a total joke.

F4 - Bladeturn Requiem: Either massively increase the damage or give it a condition cleanse per blade used. 

 

I'd like to see GS2 gain a unique functionality like Sw3 as you get no bounce from it if you use it on a solo mob out of bounce range.

 

Would be nice to see Thousand Cuts get an increased size. is Prime Light Beam size too much to ask for? Possibly lol, but it is so thin right now.

 

Would also be nice for Psychic Force to get an evade component to cover the cast time. Still don't know if I'd use it but at least that way you can't be CC'd mid-cast. I don't think a short stack of stab would be enough to justify slotting it over another stunbreak, but an evade may.

 

Rain of Swords & Sword of Decimation I agree both feel undertuned. Max I have gotten while nearly full glass is like 5k Sword of Decimation on a downstate, but generally it's between like 1.5k and 3k which is super weak for a skill that has an interaction with downstate. Rain of Swords should be close in strength to Necro's Well of Suffering as @Infusion.7149 mentioned.

Really good suggestions, especially the evade on Psychic Force! I'll add that one to the OP.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

12 hours ago, Entropo.1524 said:

 just make me able to cast it without havint to face the target, gs4 and gs2 both are projectiles and u can cast both without facing the target, its so clunky when u cant

 

You can't cast gs2 without facing target

[Infinity.2876]

The absolute blow your mind trick would be to:

Make Virtuoso like yondu from guardians of the galaxy add some character whistle sounds and there you have it folks I can die happy

[mortrialus.3062]

Flying cutter still doesn't proc the flurry effect when striking downed bodies. 

[mungozen.2379]

On 3/7/2022 at 4:58 AM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Bladeturn Refrain: OK

Mental Focus: Remove range restriction.

Jagged Mind: Integrate it into "blades skills inflict bleed" into Bloodsong and rework this trait into a movement speed trait (swiftness/superspeed/passive movement speed).

Deadly Blades: Fix the fact that it doesn't work with sword skills (like Blurred Frenzy).

Duelist's Reversal: OK

Phantasmal Blades: Gain the Fury on phantasm summon instead of on successful phantasm attack. Increase the Fury to 6 seconds. Add quickness for 2 seconds.

Sharpening Sorrow: Increase Fury to 10 seconds or 3 seconds per blade. Add quickness for 2 seconds.

Quiet Intensity: Add "Summoning a phantasm causes your next Bladesong to become unblockable".

Psychic Riposte: Remove the unblockable effect.

Infinite Forge: OK

Bloodsong: Integrate Jagged Mind into this.

Looking at your suggestions:

Why would you ever take Infinite Forge over the recommended Bloodsong + Jagged Minds super trait?  Why would you take the nerfed Psychic Riposte either for that matter?  Infinite Forge is pretty bad as it stands right now and could use some attention to bring it in line with the other two GM.

Bloodsong + Jagged Minds is too much together anyway.  Bleed on Crit, +25% Bleed dmg, +3% Condi Heal, +Stock blades on 5 stacks bleed.  I like that these are split out and think they should stay as such (although there is room to modify them).

Why would I take Duelist's Reversal over your updated Phantasmal Blades or Sharpening Sorrow?  Duelist's Reversal is closer but doesn't appear to be inline with your updated traits.

If Deadly Blades is updated to work with Sword, it should also be updated to work with any weapon.  Why give preferential treatment to only 1 Core weapon?

Moving the Unblockable Bladesongs from Psychic Riposte to 'on Phantasm' is mostly a nerf.  Having a block up is far more likely than a Phantasm.  While your idea does create the playstyle 'cast Phantasm then Unblockable Bladesong' you are at best going to have access to 4 phantasms on your bar, some with relatively long CD's.  This is a somewhat predictable play pattern in competitive modes "there is the phantasm, time to dodge the bladesong".  Ands then when your Phantasms are on CD, you are left with blockable bladesongs.  I far prefer the payoff for stacking blades on block be Unblockable Bladesongs as it currently stands.  You can technically chain 8 Bladesongs in 24 seconds all Unblockable currently when used with Bladeturn Refrain and Shatter Storm (F1 Ammo Trait).

Things I liked:

• Sharpening Sorrow - Increased effect for number of Blades sounds like a good idea
• The addition of a bit more quickness to traits
• The addition of a movement speed trait

I would actually consider adding a swiftness component to Mental Focus, but keep the range at 600.  Say 'on kill gain 3 seconds Swiftness' as a starting point.  I could also see swiftness added it to Duelist's Reversal as a different approach.

Alternately I would rework Infinite Forge similar to my above suggestion: On kill gain 5 seconds swiftness and stock 5 blades.