WHAT TO FIX ON VIRTUOSO (04/13 Update)

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 3/13/2022 at 8:08 PM, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Looking at your suggestions:

Why would you ever take Infinite Forge over the recommended Bloodsong + Jagged Minds super trait?  Why would you take the nerfed Psychic Riposte either for that matter?  Infinite Forge is pretty bad as it stands right now and could use some attention to bring it in line with the other two GM.

The first sentence of the post contains this: "This is from a PvP perspective". Infinite Forge and Psychic Riposte are both better for PvP. I would be happy with improvements to Infinite Forge though as it is my favorite of the three. Ideas?

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Bloodsong + Jagged Minds is too much together anyway.  Bleed on Crit, +25% Bleed dmg, +3% Condi Heal, +Stock blades on 5 stacks bleed.  I like that these are split out and think they should stay as such (although there is room to modify them).

The 3% condi heal is unnecessary and can be removed. I don't think "Blade skills inflict bleeding, bleeding does 25% damage, stock a blade after applying 5 bleed stacks, is too much. But in any case, we also have the middle (underpowered) condition trait to work with too, Sharpening Sorrow.

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Why would I take Duelist's Reversal over your updated Phantasmal Blades or Sharpening Sorrow?  Duelist's Reversal is closer but doesn't appear to be inline with your updated traits.

If you are playing a defensive build (say staff scepter). Which is the indention of the trait design. Does Phantasmal Blades or Sharpening Sorrow provide regen? It makes sense that Duelist's Reversal should be the strongest trait defensively, not the strongest in every scenario.

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If Deadly Blades is updated to work with Sword, it should also be updated to work with any weapon.  Why give preferential treatment to only 1 Core weapon?

You have probably misunderstood the trait and the whole concept of  "blade" attacks. Weapons and utility skills that use blades (like swords, daggers, greatswords), are supposed to count as "blade" type attacks. Here is a list: Blade - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W). This is already the case for dagger and greatsword (check the tooltip for Mirror Blade and Mind Stab). The fact that sword skills don't is a bug. There is no preferential treatment, rather there is currently a dispreferential treatment of sword.

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Moving the Unblockable Bladesongs from Psychic Riposte to 'on Phantasm' is mostly a nerf.  Having a block up is far more likely than a Phantasm. 

True and the idea could be buffed or improved upon but "uptime" is not the end-all-be-all, having access to the unblockable "un-demand" would be far less clunky and more enjoyable despite the lower potential uptime. But I am interested in other suggestions that might work better for World vs World. If I get / come up with one I'll update.

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While your idea does create the playstyle 'cast Phantasm then Unblockable Bladesong' you are at best going to have access to 4 phantasms on your bar, some with relatively long CD's.  This is a somewhat predictable play pattern in competitive modes "there is the phantasm, time to dodge the bladesong".

Then you stow the bladesong and he wastes his dodge. It's all about mindgames.

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  Ands then when your Phantasms are on CD, you are left with blockable bladesongs.  I far prefer the payoff for stacking blades on block be Unblockable Bladesongs as it currently stands.  You can technically chain 8 Bladesongs in 24 seconds all Unblockable currently when used with Bladeturn Refrain and Shatter Storm (F1 Ammo Trait).

No, the current solution is a bad one because It essentially forces you into top-top-top traits. This was the purpose of what I wrote, to divorce the unblockable from forcing you into this build option. However, I will say that I am certainly not 100% certain on my solution, it was just the best I could come up with that seems realistic. If you have any ideas, shoot. I will edit OP to put more emphasis on the problem and less on my specific solution idea.

Of course, the simplest (and probably preferable) way to solve this would be to make Bladesong Harmony and Bladesong Sorrow into beams/non-projectiles.

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Things I liked:

• Sharpening Sorrow - Increased effect for number of Blades sounds like a good idea
• The addition of a bit more quickness to traits
• The addition of a movement speed trait

I would actually consider adding a swiftness component to Mental Focus, but keep the range at 600.  Say 'on kill gain 3 seconds Swiftness' as a starting point.  I could also see swiftness added it to Duelist's Reversal as a different approach.

3 seconds swiftness on kill would be astronomically terrible for PvP. And it shouldn't be added to Duelist's Reversal because it is already strongest Master trait.

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Alternately I would rework Infinite Forge similar to my above suggestion: On kill gain 5 seconds swiftness and stock 5 blades.

Not a great idea because of the extremely different outcomes in different gamemodes.

Edited April 4, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[mungozen.2379]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

The first sentence of the post contains this: "This is from a PvP perspective". Infinite Forge and Psychic Riposte are both better for PvP. I would be happy with improvements to Infinite Forge though as it is my favorite of the three. Ideas?

The 3% condi heal is unnecessary and can be removed. I don't think "Blade skills inflict bleeding, bleeding does 25% damage, stock a blade after applying 5 bleed stacks, is too much. But in any case, we also have the middle (underpowered) condition trait to work with too, Sharpening Sorrow.

If you are playing a defensive build (say staff scepter). Which is the indention of the trait design. Does Phantasmal Blades or Sharpening Sorrow provide regen? It makes sense that Duelist's Reversal should be the strongest trait defensively, not the strongest in every scenario.

You have probably misunderstood the trait and the whole concept of  "blade" attacks. Weapons and utility skills that use blades (like swords, daggers, greatswords), are supposed to count as "blade" type attacks. Here is a list: Blade - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W). This is already the case for dagger and greatsword (check the tooltip for Mirror Blade and Mind Stab). The fact that sword skills don't is a bug. There is no preferential treatment, rather there is currently a dispreferential treatment of sword.

True and the idea could be buffed or improved upon but "uptime" is not the end-all-be-all, having access to the unblockable "un-demand" would be far less clunky and more enjoyable despite the lower potential uptime. But I am interested in other suggestions that might work better for World vs World. If I get / come up with one I'll update.

Then you stow the bladesong and he wastes his dodge. It's all about mindgames.

No, the current solution is a bad one. It essentially forces you into top-top-top traits. This was the purpose of what I wrote, to divorce the unblockable from forcing you into this build option. However, I will say that I am certainly not 100% certain on my solution, it was just the best I could come up with that seems realistic. If you have any ideas, shoot. I will edit OP to put more emphasis on the problem and less on my specific solution idea.

Of course, the simplest (and probably preferable) way to solve this would be to make Bladesong Harmony and Bladesong Sorrow into beams/non-projectiles.

3 seconds swiftness on kill would be astronomically terrible for PvP. And no, it should not be added to Duelist's Reversal, the already strongest Master trait.

Very bad suggestion because of the extremely different outcomes in different gamemodes.

I admit I was thinking and responding from a more generic perspective, so my responses may not be inline with the OP.  Thanks for taking the time to expand on some of the talking points.  

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

I added a point about greatsword being weaker on virtuoso at range due to the lack of a clone to bounce mirror blade on.

[piitb.7635]

Going from mirage to virtuoso.

 

Virtuoso is glassy af.  It's a complete glass cannon.

 

Outside of aegis, if specced for it, its boon production isn't particularly great.

 

 

That means its really bad for solo play.  But in group play, if you know what you are doing, its probably the best dps spec.  So the fix would be to give it either better boon generation or survivability..

Edited March 15, 2022 by piitb.7635

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, piitb.7635 said:

Going from mirage to virtuoso.

 

Virtuoso is glassy af.  It's a complete glass cannon.

 

Outside of aegis, if specced for it, its boon production isn't particularly great.

 

 

That means its really bad for solo play.  But in group play, if you know what you are doing, its probably the best dps spec.  So the fix would be to give it either better boon generation or survivability..

It's a glass cannon indeed, except for the cannon part. 

Virt damage is trash. 

[piitb.7635]

59 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

It's a glass cannon indeed, except for the cannon part. 

Virt damage is trash. 

40k dps as a power build, not a condi, says you're off basis and looking for an excuse to cry.

[Yoci.2481]

On some pve golem. 🤣

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, piitb.7635 said:

40k dps as a power build, not a condi, says you're off basis and looking for an excuse to cry.

Yea because everyone can reach that benchmark lulz probably cant even reach that same benchmark on a golem let alone an actual boss encounter.

Benchmarks are the maximum possible damage output not necessarily the damage output it will perform all the time.

STOP USING GOLEM BENCHMARKS AS A WAY TO DICTATE A CLASS VIABILITY.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Levetty.1279]

28 minutes ago, Yoci.2481 said:

On some pve golem. 🤣

And large hitbox at that.

[piitb.7635]

32 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Yea because everyone can reach that benchmark lulz probably cant even reach that same benchmark on a golem let alone an actual boss encounter.

Benchmarks are the maximum possible damage output not necessarily the damage output it will perform all the time.

STOP USING GOLEM BENCHMARKS AS A WAY TO DICTATE A CLASS VIABILITY.

Yeah, the golem is dumb.

 

Why?"

 

because it doesn't hit back and there is a risk reward being in melee vs range.

 

Virt is probably the highest ranged power dps spec in the game.  

 

Anyone who picked it up for 10 minutes with better than green level trash gear  will know that it shreds opponents.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

15 hours ago, piitb.7635 said:

40k dps as a power build, not a condi, says you're off basis and looking for an excuse to cry.

Yeah, Virt deals so much damage is nuts! That's why every mesmer is playing it. Oh wait. 

[Veprovina.4876]

22 hours ago, piitb.7635 said:

40k dps as a power build, not a condi, says you're off basis and looking for an excuse to cry.

Golem benchmarks are trash, not once did i see Virtuoso do that much damage in a real scenario, and also, most people that play the game aren't snowcrows speedrunners that memorised the rotation and know how to glitchcancel skills.

 

Stop pretending like golem benchmarks mean anything. 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Edited to scratch out some of the fixed bugs, changed some small things, and added a couple new bugs that I forgot to note before.

[Mell.4873]

On 3/17/2022 at 6:58 AM, Veprovina.4876 said:

Golem benchmarks are trash, not once did i see Virtuoso do that much damage in a real scenario, and also, most people that play the game aren't snowcrows speedrunners that memorised the rotation and know how to glitchcancel skills.

 

Stop pretending like golem benchmarks mean anything. 

On 3/16/2022 at 10:31 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Yea because everyone can reach that benchmark lulz probably cant even reach that same benchmark on a golem let alone an actual boss encounter.

Benchmarks are the maximum possible damage output not necessarily the damage output it will perform all the time.

STOP USING GOLEM BENCHMARKS AS A WAY TO DICTATE A CLASS VIABILITY.

I see Virtuoso almost exclusively dominate PvE events in terms of damage numbers. In random sample of 20 players they push upwards of the top 5 after everyone's burst rotation ends.

The Main reason for this is you have a massive advantage in any situation:

• Boss goes invulnerable: attack something else at 1200 range
• Boss runs off: bleeds are still active
• Boss gets exposed: high burst utility skills and phantasms

Edited April 10, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

On 3/16/2022 at 7:48 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

It's a glass cannon indeed, except for the cannon part. 

Virt damage is trash. 

 

On 3/17/2022 at 12:00 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Yeah, Virt deals so much damage is nuts! That's why every mesmer is playing it. Oh wait. 

I have had this argument many times nothing will change their mind. I mean they have face the fact that almost every Mesmer is playing Virtuoso for most end game PvE content.

[Ombras.2853]

6 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I see Virtuoso almost exclusively dominate PvE events in terms of damage numbers. In random sample of 20 players they push upwards of the top 5 after everyone's burst rotation ends.

The Main reason for this is you have a massive advantage in any situation:

• Boss goes invulnerable: attack something else at 1200 range
• Boss runs off: bleeds are still active
• Boss gets exposed: high burst utility skills and phantasms

This is true, tho.

As much as I have lots of complains about the sPvP counterpart, Virtuoso is absolutely bonkers in PvE at the moment. In all End game modes,  since in Raids and Strikes is the vastly superior choice as a Dps spec along with Scourge, and even in Fractal made Mesmer see new play (which we really necessitated, since Power Chrono is so incredibly bad in Fractals and you can only play Mirage on certain levels).

People talking about “golem numbers are only golem numbers, blah blah blah” are clearly only focused on non-PvE modes of the game, since Virtuoso’s rotation is: a) easy to learn, b) takes no more than medium effort to reproduce; c) produces at least 33-34k even on very budget versions; and the class itself has great sustain in any fight where your allies aren’t providing you enough heal.

I’d love for this forum to become much less “black or white”, since most people here tend to take something they like/dislike and spam it everywhere like it is the only truth in the wholeness of the game.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Ombras.2853 said:

This is true, tho.

As much as I have lots of complains about the sPvP counterpart, Virtuoso is absolutely bonkers in PvE at the moment. In all End game modes,  since in Raids and Strikes is the vastly superior choice as a Dps spec along with Scourge, and even in Fractal made Mesmer see new play (which we really necessitated, since Power Chrono is so incredibly bad in Fractals and you can only play Mirage on certain levels).

People talking about “golem numbers are only golem numbers, blah blah blah” are clearly only focused on non-PvE modes of the game, since Virtuoso’s rotation is: a) easy to learn, b) takes no more than medium effort to reproduce; c) produces at least 33-34k even on very budget versions; and the class itself has great sustain in any fight where your allies aren’t providing you enough heal.

I’d love for this forum to become much less “black or white”, since most people here tend to take something they like/dislike and spam it everywhere like it is the only truth in the wholeness of the game.

Yeah I 100% agree, I do concede its bad in most PvP game modes but I hate Mesmer there so I'm bias.

I'm not against playing bad classes and getting good at them I mean I play Untamed WvW and I don't see anyone posting roaming compilations but I see a heck of a lot of Virtuoso ones. I have even seen a few outnumbered compilations for Virtuoso so it must be doing something right.

[katte nici.9483]

On 3/7/2022 at 1:58 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

This is from a PvP perspective but I think these would work well for PvE as well. I'm trying to avoid suggesting "reworks" because they take more development time.

Bladesongs

Bladesong Harmony: Allow it to be used without a target (important for counterplay vs stealth and general flow of the class). Consider lowering cast time to 1/2 seconds, it would still be easily dodged.

Bladesong Sorrow: Allow it to be used without a target. Also, because the blades "shoot out to the side" first, it is often obstructed even though your enemy is in clear sight, if you are standing near a wall for example.

Bladesong Dissonance: Fix projectile tracking and/or increase projectile speed. Make it stun instead of daze. If not, make it piece like Bladesong Harmony and Bladesong Sorrow do.

Bladeturn Requiem: Is the block supposed to be 1 1/2 seconds or 2 seconds? Fix tooltip/clarify. Fix interaction with Master of Fragmentations (doesn't increase block duration like the tooltip says). Increase the damage so that it can be used as melee counterpressure (which is one of the main things Virtuoso struggles with).

Dagger

Flying Cutter: Fix projectile tracking and/or increase projectile speed.

Bladecall: OK

Unstable Bladestorm: Needs a rework. My first thought is to make it a ground targeted AoE with cripple (akin to Elemental Blast on Herald or Spirit Sword on Guardian).

Sword

Blade Leap: Fix accuracy / hit registration. A way to do this is to copy the animation from Monarch's Leap on ranger. It has the same range and everything, but hits way more reliably.

Greatsword

Edit: after the buffs greatsword is probably fine, although the lack of a bounce on long range Mirror Blade is still a shame.

Heal/Utilities/Elite

Twin Blade Restoration: Fix not being usable when facing away from target. Edit: fixed!

Blade Renewal: OK, possibly too strong once the other stuff has been fixed.

Rain of Swords: Increase damage or add cripple.

Sword of Decimation: Increase Damage or remove the "disabled or downed player" condition so it always does full damage.

Psychic Force: Add an evade during the channel (1/2 sec). Decrease cooldown (32 seconds to start). Edit: Cooldown was decreased in the patch but it's still not good.

Thousand Cuts: OK (bad but not really worse than core elites). Edit: Scratch that, it's mostly worse than other core elites except for Time Warp. Maybe make the area slightly wider?

Traits

Condensing the "required" condition traits into just the grandmaster in order to open up more choices - currently if you take Bloodsong you must also take Jagged Mind. Adding quickness to all three of the middle row traits thereby buffing the underused "Phantasmal Blades" and "Sharpening Sorrow" traits. Virtuoso is too slow to compete with other classes, adding more options for quickness helps solve this. Fixing the problem of being locked into Psychic Riposte by moving the unblockable effect to the minor grandmaster trait. The unblockable is no longer tied to evading an enemy attack, this will give control back to you and make gameplay flow better. It is also better for the opponent who can see when you summon a phantasm and knows that your next Bladesong will be unblockable, rather than having to keep track of a trait ICD and a small icon in the buff bar "play the game, not the ui".

Bladeturn Refrain: OK

Mental Focus: Will never be used in PvP in its current state - maybe make it 10% or remove range restriction?

Jagged Mind: Integrate it into "blades skills inflict bleed" into Bloodsong and rework this trait into a movement speed trait (swiftness/superspeed/passive movement speed). That means you have to choose between defense (aegis), damage, or speed, in the first column of traits.

Deadly Blades: Fix the fact that it doesn't work with sword skills (like Blurred Frenzy).

Duelist's Reversal: OK

Phantasmal Blades: Gain the Fury on phantasm summon instead of on successful phantasm attack. Increase the Fury to 6 or 8 seconds. Add something else e.g. quickness for 2 seconds.

Sharpening Sorrow: Gain fury for 3 seconds per blade. Add something else, e.g. quickness for 2 seconds.

Quiet Intensity: OK

Psychic Riposte: Add some method of gaining unblockable Bladesongs that doesn't rely on enemy action and doesn't force you into a specific grandmaster trait. Alternatively make the Bladesongs immune to reflect by default. Then remove the unblockable effect from this trait.

Infinite Forge: OK. Bloodsong is meta in PvE and Psychic Riposte is meta in PvP, this trait has fallen behind. Add "Stock 2 blades when you use a Psionic skill". Alternatively, rework the trait it into "skills that stock blades, stock an additional blade on use" i.e. Phantasms would convert into two blades, Mirror Images would give three blades, Bladecall would give two blades, and so on.

Bloodsong: Integrate Jagged Mind into this trait.

Edit: Ideally (for build diversity), Psychic Riposte should be suitable for a sidenoder duelist Virtuoso, while Infinite Forge and Bloodsong should be suitable for a roamer virtuoso. Currently basically all builds are running Psychic Riposte in PvP.

Bugs/Issues

Bladesong Harmony and Bladesong Sorrow cannot be used without a target but Bladesong Dissonance can.

Unstable Bladestorm: Disappears completely if it gets blocked (even by an aegis).

Twin Blade Restoration: Doesn't work while facing away from target. Edit: fixed!

Deadly Blades and Jagged Mind: Don't work with sword skills.

Bladeturn Requiem: Doesn't get a damage increase by Mental Anguish. Tooltip says "block duration 3 seconds" with Master of Fragmentations but the actual duration stays the same. Cast time is 1 1/2 seconds but block time is 2 seconds.

Blade Leap: Regularly misses targets even if they are standing still.

Bladesong Dissonance: Misses targets who are moving.

Sword of Decimation: If interrupted/cancelled at the end of the cast it causes no effect but goes on full cooldown. Fixed, I think?

Edit: Psychic Riposte: Sometimes your Bladesong is blocked or reflected even though you have the unblockable effect from this trait (will add video clip soon).

Edit: Flying Cutter "flurry of blades"-effect doesn't work on players in the downed state.

Awesome ideas! Thank you very much! 😍

[Za Shaloc.3908]

After playing Virt more and more in WvW, the two things I'd like to see get priority is F3 tracking (still think it'd be cool to have it behave like Ele's Comet) and F4 damage. Is it crazy to say I think its damage should be tripled? Doubled at the very least IMO.

[Ombras.2853]

F4 damage imho it’s perfectly reasonable as it is.

F3 is a joke, tho. Can’t interrupt jacksheete if it’s not instant cast.

I’d like to see something like a 0,3 sec stun per Blade, or sort of.

[mortrialus.3062]

6 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well people did start this by saying Virtuoso damage was trash until someone corrected them. 

Virtuoso damage is really, really undertuned given how it has absolutely no utility in SPvP in particular, where you're lucky to get 5 or 6k damage on the F1 on a beserker amulet. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

11 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

F4 damage imho it’s perfectly reasonable as it is.

F3 is a joke, tho. Can’t interrupt jacksheete if it’s not instant cast.

I’d like to see something like a 0,3 sec stun per Blade, or sort of.

I would rather not have any damage in F4. 

[katte nici.9483]

Remove the damage on F4 completely and give it something else or increase the damage massively. Right now even on my glass build I can safely ignore another Virtuoso's F4 damage and do something unblockable and I trade damage better.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

If said this on the first beta and I still think it's a solid idea. 

Make F4 a flip skill, first blocks and flips allowing you to explode it for good damage. Similar to ele's auras. 

[KeoLegend.5132]

ppl claiming virt is weak, yet i am constantly losing 1v1s against power virtuosos while winning against almost all other classes (at least 50% of the time). I must be sooo bad at this game :(