Staff and Scepter not getting buffed condition damage to compensate for the loss of clones on Virtuoso is such a BIG oversight and flaw

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Hallow.7368 said:

The nerf was a biproduct of making a unique take on the Mesmer class mechanic and they don't intend for you to use separate weapons that rely on the core version. I REALLY hope virt just dies in pvp so people will stop trying to call the class unfinished and weak overall just because you can't put whatever the hell weapon you want on it in pvp.

What are you jabbering about, the game itself markets that you can play the class however you want....and this isn't even a discussion CMC stated that Virtuoso needs buffs and that it isn't in a good state. However doesn't mean players cannot provide a means of a guideline in where they need to look at.

So far all your arguments have been extremely weak especially the fact that you stated "I REALLY hope virt dies in pvp so people will stop trying to call the class unfinished weak overall just because you can't put whatever the hell weapon you want on it in pvp."

Like I cannot process how self-righteous you think you are by posting that comment. The worst part about this is staff and scepter are actually strong picks for Virtuoso for defensive purposes. Seriously go do some research before making remarks. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Hallow.7368 said:

How is it under performing? Snowcrows is benching power virt at 40k dps which is very good. If there are classes providing support and going higher than that or doing the same amount they need to be nerfed not virt buffed. There is too much power creep in this game. Bosses and end game content were not designed with ludicrous amounts of damage in mind bladesworn already showed that to us when it was skipping mechanics with it's burst in the betas. The only person doing mental gymnastics is you by trying to inject your feelings into class balance and by making a quarter of your original post about how I was wrong and it's 2 3 and 4 instead of 3 4 and 5 despite it being a MISTAKE that I typed the wrong numbers.

This is extremely untrue because bosses and raids were created during HoT, which the "powercreep" had already begun with the e-specs. In fact bosses were created knowing alacrity and quickness was in play. So I don't know where you think you are going with this comment.

None of the bosses was created pre expansion because they didn't exist at that time. As far as bladesworn goes, they purposely showed the damage for bladesworn during the showcase of that e-spec so they were WELL aware of the damage output it can dished out in PvE. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

Actually it's pretty funny but focus and sword seem to be out performing pistol and torch for cVirt because they're lower cooldown and hit a bunch to proc bleeds.

Again untrue, focus is only used because it is the only way for virtuoso to make full use of shatter because its "pierce" not "aoe" therefore the only way for you to "pierce" multiple mobs is to gather them in the center for you to hit multiple targets, this also includes the clunky elite that we have.

As far as sword goes, sword is the only weapon that provides mobility from s3 and s2 evade, again weapons that were the best option not because it "out performs" because they are needed to cover what Virtuoso lacks.

They don't have lower cooldown unless you trait it and even then scepter has a 8 sec block vs a 10 sec blurred frenzy. As far as pistol goes the cooldown are similar to focus respectively 20 and 25 seconds on both skills, 20 sec on phantasm, and 25 on the CC ability.

And the only reason why they both out perform torch is because torch has been significantly nerfed throughout the years.

Please do some research thanks.

Also its funny that dagger is almost never used in PvP even tho it is the weapon that was featured for the class.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Obliviscaris.6937]

Hoping that a spec dies in PvP because of one's own personal 🧠 hurdles. Ah, so we've been arguing with someone who doesn't actually have any legitimate interest in PvP.  I had my suspicions. I'm certainly feeling vindicated!

[mortrialus.3062]

2 hours ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

Hoping that a spec dies in PvP because of one's own personal 🧠 hurdles. Ah, so we've been arguing with someone who doesn't actually have any legitimate interest in PvP.  I had my suspicions. I'm certainly feeling vindicated!

It's pretty clear we have a number of people here playing devils advocate, either to get a rise out of annoying mesmer players who want to see some of the issues with our spec taken care of, or to muddy the waters of any potential feedback that might actually make its way from the mesmer sub forum to the devs because they want to sabotage virtuoso and mesmer in general.

"I hope the spec is so bad in PvP that not only does no one play it no one ever wants it to be playable because the class is already good enough" is such obvious insane troll logic. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[Obliviscaris.6937]

7 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

It's pretty clear we have a number of people here playing devils advocate, either to get a rise out of annoying mesmer players who want to see some of the issues with our spec taken care of, or to muddy the waters of any potential feedback that might actually make its way from the mesmer sub forum to the devs because they want to sabotage virtuoso and mesmer in general.

"I hope the spec is so bad in PvP that not only does no one play it no one ever wants it to be playable because the class is already good enough" is such obvious insane troll logic. 

 

Well said. And the developers have fallen for it, hook line & sinker. 

[Puck.3697]

On 3/12/2022 at 1:07 AM, Hallow.7368 said:

Blades, you know.. the modifier on dagger abilities and GS 2 3 and 4? The modifier that makes the abilities directly interact with half your traits (applying vuln and if traited bleeds on crits). It's what allows dagger to be both simultaneously a condi and power weapon. I will admit on spec being binary, but it is not bad design because you don't like it or because your build doesn't work on it. Mirage and chrono still exist if virt isn't to your liking.

Huh what are u talking about? 

Virtuoso is bad design lol. How can you consider it not to be? It's physically not fit to be played in over half the games bloody content! 

It has no WvWvW or spvp potiental. About the only thing it can potientally do is 1v1 in certain conditions. 

0 thought process into dealing with the problems removing clones would actually have and just praying that the ability to target swap and carry blades between fights would band aid them. 

It's directly worse at soloing because they made blade generation slower then clone generation. 

100% projectile so quite litterally one form of utility counters the entire specc at a cheap price. 

It's more expensive for your team to carry a virtuoso then it is for the enemy team to completely shut it down. This shouldn't be a thing it never shoulda been a thing. 

They took a underperforming specc. And instead of fixing the issues. They tacked a Condi build on it which is even worse. 

Anet have launched dumb mechanics and then changed their minds on it so many times that the state of mesmer is so degenerate the specc physically can't stand up without some janky designed mechanic can't carry it. 

And this isn't a "oh the new specc sucks but atleast Weavers the best duellist in the game" this is a we have some Janky builds which "kind of work" in unorganised ranked gameplay. 

Mesmer is one of the most unique experiences in the mmorpg genre yet Anet have continously failed it. And your going to put the problems down with virtuoso to people not liking it?

People have wanted a No clone specc for mesmer for years! The issue is they want a no clone specc that is actually good. 

Virtuoso has sooo little potiental unless you wanna copium your way to the summer patch in hopes for some sorta major change for both core mesmer and virtuoso that's gonna pull this out of the sinking ship. 

I ain't even a mesmer main. And I can easily aknowledge the fact that mesmers not ok lol. I quit mesmer (I like warrior more). 

Mesmers a huge selling point for gw2 it's that specc that's exclusive to this game. And it needs ALOT of help.

The only successful thing mesmers have done in the last 2 years is be a raid tank 🤦. 

I am rarely negative, rarely am doomer, and rarely ever screech about how bad things are. I ain't a meta pusher or someone that even dedicates my time to the proffession. You can see me defend positive points on even bladesworn something lots of people are unhappy with. 

However. Virtuoso is horrible. This is the one PROPER mage style gameplay specc this game gets in 6 odd years. And it's a complete mess. 

A no clone style mesmer which creates illusionary weaponry is one of the coolest fantasies that could be brought to live in a mmorpg. 

In pure potiental it's one of the best ideas of a elite specc. 

But here's the fact it's production and execution capitalise on NONE of that potiental. What you have is a kit which is entirely counterable at the cost of a cheap utility skill to run on lots of proffessions. Doesnt hit hard enough to matter when you do land it. And does nothing to solve the issues with core.mesmer they've tried to band aid with elites for years with. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

On 3/13/2022 at 4:27 AM, mortrialus.3062 said:

Patching up the damage on these weapons would address this.  Because you'd be patching up the damage.

They don't need to be blades because the weapons already have their own condis and their own traits.  The problem is that the weapon design requires clones contributing their own auto attack damage to get competitive damage numbers because clones also cast the same autos that you do. So just make the damage numbers not require clones when you're virtuoso.

They've already done this with sword 3. Plenty of other professions have skill splits when they equip an elite spec.

There's no reason peak PvE condi virtuoso's set up wouldn't be dagger+pistol/ scepter+torch if they made the core condi weapons actually work.  And there's also PvP to consider.

There is a problem with Scepter/Staff skills 'not working', and you're justifying a DPS increase for those weapons to fix that in Virtuoso? Compensation is not a fix. That doesn't fix anything. 

I have no doubt that Anet's intention by giving Virtuoso 3 traits for a condi build was NOT that people can ignore those traits on a condi build because that's exactly what a Scepter and Staff build on cVirt looks like. Why on earth would you EVER take ANY Virtuoso condi traits using either of these weapons?

In otherwords, you are asking Anet to give you something that allows you an optimal way to ignore their design. Do you honestly Anet would get on board for that idea? What's more likely is that they just change the design so the best cVirt build will use the traits. This is why I'm saying the actual problem here isn't how Staff/Scepter work ... it's with the Virt traits. 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[mortrialus.3062]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There is a problem with Scepter/Staff skills 'not working', and you're justifying a DPS increase for those weapons to fix that in Virtuoso? Compensation is not a fix. That doesn't fix anything. 

I have no doubt that Anet's intention by giving Virtuoso 3 traits for a condi build was NOT that people can ignore those traits on a condi build because that's exactly what a Scepter and Staff build on cVirt looks like. Why on earth would you EVER take ANY Virtuoso condi traits using either of these weapons?

In otherwords, you are asking Anet to give you something that allows you an optimal way to ignore their design. Do you honestly Anet would get on board for that idea? What's more likely is that they just change the design so the best cVirt build will use the traits. This is why I'm saying the actual problem here isn't how Staff/Scepter work ... it's with the Virt traits. 

 

Good news is Obtena is doing this devil's advocate nonsense on all the profession forums, not just mesmer.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

I am not buying EOD partly because virtuoso sucks, but mostly due to disrespect shown towards players from anet.
Some specs are absurdly broken where others are unusable, loads of nerfs introduced just to try and coax people into buying expansion, and a disfunctional specs that are loaded with problems that went unsolved.
Name of the spec is bad, the theme is bad, execution is even worse, and the feel is terrible. Anet would have to pay me to play this kitten spec, because I am too old to subject myself to this kitten, It was very kittening bad to play this kitten in the beta and they didnt do anything to make it better.
P.S
fractal nerfs more or less made me and my friend quit the game all-together. Their amazing plan of pushing people to do kitten content " strikes " goes as planned I guess. Just another way to force people to pay for expansion.

[Xaylin.1860]

On 3/13/2022 at 12:16 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again untrue, focus is only used because it is the only way for virtuoso to make full use of shatter because its "pierce" not "aoe" therefore the only way for you to "pierce" multiple mobs is to gather them in the center for you to hit multiple targets, this also includes the clunky elite that we have.

Which makes me wonder why they didn't give us anything Shadowfall-ish or a - god forbid - pulsing pull on Dagger #3. But we get a knockback? While having damage modifiers for close to medium range? 🥴😵‍💫

 

I guess, we already got Gravity Well, right?😬

[Obtena.7952]

Interesting patch notes today:

Virtuoso

Virtuoso's condition damage options are intended to be a high-sustain build for general play. However, we'd still like to bring it a little bit closer to the power builds in damage, so this patch increases the bleeding duration from both the Jagged Mind trait and the F2 Bladesong.

• Jagged Mind: Bleed duration in PvE increased from 3 seconds to 5 seconds.
• Bladesong Sorrow: Bleed duration per hit increased from 3 seconds to 5 seconds.

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obliviscaris.6937]

The devs must think that bleeding does more than it actually does. 

[FarmBotXD.1430]

Its funny watching them try to brute-force condi virtuoso

[Xaylin.1860]

I can make my peace with a Bleeding condi variant even though it seems like at least the vocal playerbase on the forums mostly dislikes it, me included. However, the "high-sustain" part really gets me. I mean... Mirage... hello?

[phokus.8934]

On 3/15/2022 at 12:10 AM, mortrialus.3062 said:

Good news is Obtena is doing this devil's advocate nonsense on all the profession forums, not just mesmer.

If he spent more time in game trying to get better and less time posting, he'd have more meaningful comments.

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, phokus.8934 said:

If he spent more time in game trying to get better and less time posting, he'd have more meaningful comments.

Its funny because that person posted this,

"Only really played Mechanist and Vindicator in depth. So far, they offer some very interesting and versatile build options.

Vindicator is definitely fun IMO, though the Hammer does not suit the playstyle very well; that's more of a general Revenant issue. 

Mechanist has 'nerf me' written all over it with the Signets + J-Drive ... we will see what Anet thinks. 

Next up: Harbinger now that I have ability to create some Ritualist insignias"

 

Meaning that person didn't even play Virtuoso in depth enough  to make any meaningful comments. BIG YIKES....

[Veprovina.4876]

9 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Its funny because that person posted this,

"Only really played Mechanist and Vindicator in depth. So far, they offer some very interesting and versatile build options.

Vindicator is definitely fun IMO, though the Hammer does not suit the playstyle very well; that's more of a general Revenant issue. 

Mechanist has 'nerf me' written all over it with the Signets + J-Drive ... we will see what Anet thinks. 

Next up: Harbinger now that I have ability to create some Ritualist insignias"

 

Meaning that person didn't even play Virtuoso in depth enough  to make any meaningful comments. BIG YIKES....

You mean Mell? If so, i don't think Mell even realizes the damage he/she is doing by blindly praising Virtuoso. 

Sad that Anet ends up listening to enablers cause that's easier, to pretend everything's fine than actually fixing stuff.

And i really want a good Virtuoso, but people like that and "3 post 5 hours on mesmer" people will inevitably ruin any chance of recovery.

[Salt Mode.3780]

59 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

You mean Mell? If so, i don't think Mell even realizes the damage he/she is doing by blindly praising Virtuoso. 

Sad that Anet ends up listening to enablers cause that's easier, to pretend everything's fine than actually fixing stuff.

And i really want a good Virtuoso, but people like that and "3 post 5 hours on mesmer" people will inevitably ruin any chance of recovery.

no even worse starts with a "O"

[Veprovina.4876]

9 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

no even worse starts with a "O"

Oh, the devil's advocate? Yeah... 

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

On 3/17/2022 at 9:00 AM, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

Its funny watching them try to brute-force condi virtuoso

Welp, they made it work... That buff to the bleed duration means an easy 80-90 stacks...

 

I don't understand what the point of this spec is anymore. I get its supposed to be a "BiG dPs SpEc" but its so uninspiring compared to Chrono and Mirage. Its really sad that ANet's bar for success and balance is based around the minuscule raid community. No offense to the raid/fractal community but there are 3 other game modes still...

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, MrAmputatoes.6031 said:

Welp, they made it work... That buff to the bleed duration means an easy 80-90 stacks...

 

I don't understand what the point of this spec is anymore. I get its supposed to be a "BiG dPs SpEc" but its so uninspiring compared to Chrono and Mirage. Its really sad that ANet's bar for success and balance is based around the minuscule raid community. No offense to the raid/fractal community but there are 3 other game modes still...

Not sure this change has anything to do with what benefits the 'minscule' raid community. The way this cVirt build is panning out, it is a SOLID openworld build. 

[Mell.4873]

On 3/12/2022 at 6:27 AM, Hallow.7368 said:

Then at this point they should just delete the condi variant and double down on power like you said and just be done with it, but then guess what? The week after that happens different people will complain that they want to play condi and it's not fair that they can't play condi virt because they like virt and not mirage. Or if they buff staff and it then overtakes dagger other people will complain that they don't like staff and want to use dagger but staff is lower effort and higher dps (exactly what happened with mirage btw just with axe instead of dagger). You've said that kitten about thief dagger like 4 times now and it still doesn't make sense. Like at all. Not only is thief a completely different class but it's weapons don't rely on a gimmick to do damage. If there is a design failure it occurred when they made core mesmer need clones to auto to damage on their condi builds and virt only highlights the fact that it is there. As long as that is in place it will forever continue to impact the options for changing up how the class mechanic works cause anything that's different from core will need band aid fixes that are only active during that elite spec.

I would complain if they removed the condition variant since that is currently what I use. 

[Mell.4873]

16 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

You mean Mell? If so, i don't think Mell even realizes the damage he/she is doing by blindly praising Virtuoso. 

Sad that Anet ends up listening to enablers cause that's easier, to pretend everything's fine than actually fixing stuff.

And i really want a good Virtuoso, but people like that and "3 post 5 hours on mesmer" people will inevitably ruin any chance of recovery.

Meeee? I'm flattered you think @Obtena.7952is me but sadly I work full time I wouldn't really have time to play gw2 if I posted that much.

Still haven't completed EoD 😞

[Veprovina.4876]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Meeee? I'm flattered you think @Obtena.7952is me but sadly I work full time I wouldn't really have time to play gw2 if I posted that much.

Still haven't completed EoD 😞

No i meant you in the 3 posts 5 hours on mesmer category. 😉 

But your unconditional praise of Virtuoso does do more harm than good in the long run. 

Please try to be aware of that.