Thoughts on Virtuoso after 2 weeks.

[Veprovina.4876]

So, when EoD came out, i immediately took my Staff mirage and for a few missions, i didn't even consider Virtuoso.

But then, what the hell, i though, why not give it a go. So i unlocked it with my spare HP (i had 100% world completion in every zone with my mesmer so i didn't even need to do HPs in Cantha).

And i wanted to give it a chance, really give it a chance, try to work with what we got, adjust the playstyle etc., everything that's needed. 

 

My first try, cause i had Viper's gear, was condi. I knew i wanted to do a power build, but since i had Viper's everything, i thought why not. 

First off the bat - the dagger and its ascended version is beautiful! And so are the gloves, i like the effect they have, kinda "shattery" particles around. 

And good thing i decided to first try condi cause there's only condi options on that dagger to choose from. I'm not going to go into detail about that, there's already a thread about it, but that was a red flag to say the least.

 

But whatever, i chose Ritualist's, Illusion, Dueling, Virtuoso 3/3/3 and roamed the new maps a bit.

Needles to say, it kinda sucked. All the "condi" traits seem to still be centered around kind of a power gear, condi seems really weird on Virtuoso. 

 

Jagged Mind - a lot of reliance on crit, meaning, you're stuck with Viper's as it's the only one with enough damage and crit chance. Trailblazer and Ritualist's and half of other condi gear makes this trait useless more or less. Any % you get from fury isn't going to make night and day difference on bleeding from that crit chance, idk... Seems too confining. It's nice that condi heals you though.

 

Sharpening Sorrow - wouldn't it be more useful if crit gives you expertise? not just fury? and don't tell me "op, op", other professions have way more broken abilities. so since condi on Virtuoso relies on crit, then make it crit based, why just fury?

 

Bloodsong - Yeah, since bleeding is what it is, this felt like a mandatory addition to boost bleed damage. But... This is a minor adept trait functionality at best, why is this a grandmaster trait? 

 

Anyway... I wasn't vibing with it so i switched to power.

 

This is the build i used for open world and base my observations upon:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiyAgqFllyYZrsWmLOSXqRVA-zRpYVRwCSMICzIBBCnUBzKkAXShkZEERKkRBYyJRIp9ACQRAA-e

 

If it looks mismatched, that's because it is. I made the build from what i had laying around. I only have full legendary armor set, Aurora and Prismatic amulet. The rest are what i dug up out of my bank that somehow fit power-ish attributes. I decided to go with Dragon's cause why not, looks neat and new to explore, plus, all virtuoso utility skills and elites cause i didn't want to try how it works with what i already had, but what Virtuoso itself brings to the table.

 

That said, on to the "review".

 

My power based experience (even if it's very mismatched), turned out way more enjoyable, as expected. Until i went into WvW but i'll get to that later. 

The only modes i tried were open world, WvW roaming and WvW guild raid. I didn't do any instanced content with it. So i won't comment on instanced stuff, only what i tried.

 

As for the open world, the experience wasn't bad. The animations, skill effects and all that fluff are really well done, very detailed, and F4 bladesong destroys my FPS how fancy it is, the animation team did a great job with it, and it's a very flashy experience playing Virtuoso. 

 

Mechanically though... They didn't go all the way. They needed to go all the way, and that's i think Virtuosos biggest failure.

Let me explain.

 

I have no issues with Virtuoso being a cloneless espec. Scourge fundamentally changed how necro is played, replacing how shroud works with something entirely else while keeping the "shroud ammo", every warrior espec just slightly changed how its class mechanic works, but profoundly changed the gameplay because of it, etc. 

With Virtuoso, it quickly became clear i'm playing a core shatter mesmer. Except worse. See, with core mesmer, and since Chrono changed kitten all when shatters are concenrned, even chrono, you can "multitask". Summon a phantasm and while it does its attack, go into sword 2 animation while simultaneously sending your clones to shatter, giving you a large burst. That's also possible with other similar weapon and phantasm skills, you can pile damage on top of each other. But since Virtuoso needs to do a little dance every bladesong, and they added that cast time, it's no longer possible. Furthermore, you now need to face your target to "shatter", and bladesongs themselves are not as good at crowds as shattering clones is. So you lost burst, lost the ability to shatter in any direction, but gained... What exactly? 5 blades that persist between encounters? I'm not sure that's a good tradeoff, like, yes, you can shatter immediately, but that's not a good replacement, especially since core can do it better. Especs are supposed to be better than core no?

 

So let's see what else Virtuoso could bring to the table to offset this. Well, the AOE potential is pretty good i'm not gonna lie. But it's again, half assed. Needs work. For instance, Bladesong Harmony is a pierce attack. So it does damage in a line. That line seems awfully thin to be an "area" effect. Yes, a line is also an area effect, but this hitbox seems so small that it barely can function as that. But ok, pierce attacks are normal+ attacks, anything else they hit is just a bonus. Not very useful for WvW. Again... Later. Bladesong Sorrow is... What exactly, one target skill? It loos great, but i never could figure out what exactly it did, if anything besides the target. Bladesong Dissonance is just bad, doesnt' need to be AOE, but ouch is that the worst CC skill or what? People have already pointed out every single problem with it, so i'm not going to, but this skill needs to change. Bladeturn Requiem, again, strictly worse than core's Distortion. It needs to either be a decent damage skill or a way better damage mitigation skill than it is. Right now it's neither here nor there. Sure, it deals damage, but might as well not how low it is, i never saw it do a dent in anything, and the block wasn't good. Especially since it locks you into the animation and you can't do anything. This is a weapon skill, not a profession mechanic. Look at Spellbreaker's full counter. I'm not saying F4 needs to be like that, full counter is after all the entire espec mechanic, but it needs to at least do something, give boons, damage mitigation after its use, heal, make it scary for enemies while it's spinning around you, force them to make distance. Every single player, no matter how glass canon, facetanked the entirety of the Bladeturn Requiem's duration, that's really bad! Not to mention, in PvE, you basically just "dodge" once if you use it, it's not a good skill.

But back to the AOE part... Most of enemies in PvE easily just stepped out of any AOE i placed. The worst offender was Thousand Cuts. That's just not a good skill. It's "place and forget". Ok, fine. But the damage is so low that Rain of Swords outdamages it, even though that damage also needs a boost. Often times, groups of enemies would just casually side step out of its path, making the entire skill a useless cast. It would only work on bosses that are stationary, but even then, it just does a bit of damage, nothing you can't do with a few autoattack casts, it's not a utility let alone elite. It either needs a much wider area, or the damage needs to be dangerous enough to justify it not having any additional effects like vulnerability, weakness or immob. A few seconds of immob would be ok if it did that, then it would be useful, or something, but as a pure damage skill, ELITE mind you, it's just bad. Yes, it's unblockable. But if people can just stand in it and tank it, then it's not a good skill, is it?

The best i could have done, in PvE, was Sword of Decimation, then Thousand Cuts, Rain of Swords and spam bladesongs and skills for the immob duration. And you know what? It STILL didn't kill veteran mobs. Like, yes, i know i don't have full zerker gear, but i'm not THAT far off for 5 skills to not kill a vet enemy, let alone elites. Like, sure, it shouldn't be able to kill an elite mob with just 5 skills, that's ok, but 5 skills, one of which is an elite, should definitely kill a veteran mob, like, something isn't right here. Trash mob killing is ok, but with so much AOE potential, i found myself needing to cast Bladesong Harmony for every single enemy, all other AOE skills barely made a dent in groups. Idk if that's because the damage spreads out or soemthing, but the current AOE ability isn't on par what an elite should bring when it's the only thing it's bringing. There's no boons, no utility, nothing except damage that Virtuoso does, but it still doesn't do that good. If damage and AOE is the only thing that Virtuoso does, it needs to be best at it. As it stands, Reaper shroud skill 4 can outclass Virtuoso's 5 AOE skill casts, it's sad that 1 skill can be better than me casting 5 skills.

 

Now on to particular skills, and a bit of WvW explanations on them:

 

Blades - As with everything on virtuoso, shiny. But in WvW, Anet, you need to hide blade count from other players, it's way too predictable.

 

That's the TL;DR about WvW virtuoso, way too predictable, way too slow, not enough damage to be scary to offset the predictability. Everyone just, even with vitality gear, mowed me down in 1 or 2 skills. I meanwhile, had no way to defend myself, no clones to distract (HUGE, HUUGE loss), no skills to mitigate clone loss (what F4 should have been), i was just a painted target for everyone, and everyone just facetanked my attacks. Here again, mismatched gear, but if i went full berserker, i still wouldn't be able to do to people what they did to me, a full DPS spec that can't DPS, and everything is a projectile, so in certain instances i'm sure i killed myself at times. Like when announcing for half an hour that i'm casting a bladesong, which is not interruptable and WILL fire, but in the meantime, someone can just prepare a reflect and kill me.

 

Virtuoso is trash in WvW and anyone who defends it and says it's great for roaming and groups is lying. And yes, i did adjust my build before going in WvW, which also, by taking defensive stuff, further made my damage useless. Anet, why are you always so stingy with DPS on mesmer? Why can a soulbeast cast skill 2 and 1 shot people with it, but mesmers need to play piano to make a dent in anyone - that they will heal in 1 cast - and again, like with every spec, you waste all that you have to maybe get someone to 50%, and then you wait for cooldowns. 

Trash.

 

Bladesong Harmony - directional, has cast time, clunky AOE, but damage seems ok-ish. Not ok enough to lose the ability to cast it in any direction, but whatever, it's an ok skill. Not sure how well it tracks, if at all in WvW, but it at least forced a dodge in roaming encounters. But the worst part is i needed to be facing someone, and that's a HUGE handicap for how little damage it does in comparison. Needs to do more damage if you're forced to face your opponent, and maybe a wider AOE so that people can't just side step it. I'm not sure it tracks, it looks weird in WvW, if someone knows exactly how it works, please tell me.

Bladesong Sorrow - Mostly used it as a filler, condi options on Virtuoso are already bad as is, a condi bladesong idk, doesn't do much. Looks great though.

Bladesong Dissonance - Go read other 1000 threads on why this is trash, i'm not gonna repeat it here

Bladeturn Requiem - As mentioned above, it either needs to be better, right now it's trash, if it's gonna block, it needs to do more damage mitigation, if it's gonna do damage, it needs to be scary for people entering melee range. It needs to be a good melee repellant with all the spinning blades so that when someone sees that animation, they back away, not facetank the entirety of it while doing insane damage in the process. Make it apply weakness by default so that, even if someone does facetank it, it at least isn't punishing to the Virtuoso. Casting this skill now is self punishment and a free kill for your enemy. Trash.

 

Flying Cutter - ok auto, flurry of blades needs to apply vulnerability, like, at least 3 stacks, other than that, no complaints

Bladecall - Trash. It's a shotgun skill that doesn't do damage even if all 3 blades pass back and forth through your target. No one bothers to even dodge it. Only useful for stocking a blade. This needs to do WAY more damage. It needs to be a scary skill in WvW so that anyone who approaches you thinks twice and keeps their distance so that you, a RANGED DPS spec can do your job. If 1 blade hits, fine, slight damage, but if all 3 hit, it needs to hurt. Right now, no one had a problem being in melee range of me, and there were no penalties for anyone entering melee range. Rangers can at least wittle you down from insane range so by the time you enter melee you're at least softened. Then they have options, stealth, run away, pets. Virtuoso has nothing, and can't even damage foes going into range, can't even soften them like rangers can.

Unstable Bladestorm - ok i guess for groups. Needs to fire blades at less interval. Also, what exactly does damage, the whirlwind or the firing blades? And do blades track or just fire in random directions hoping to hit something? This skill is confusing. It's not the worst, but it's also not great, it's just ok.

 

Twin Blade Restoration - needs to fire in all directions, a directional heal that forces you to face your enemy is bad. other than that, it's ok

 

Blade Renewal - Great skill! Distortion, and stocks 5 blades! Helps double cast F1 if you made it an ammo skill, it's just a great skill.

Rain of Swords - Needs to do more damage. It's nice that it applies vulnerability, that's great, but the cast time and animation are so predictable in WvW that entire groups will move to avoid it. Ok in PvE, not that great in WvW groups, trash in roaming.

Psychic Force - Another great skill. Yes, Virtuoso has some. Shoves opponents off you, gives boons and is a CC. Needs to be at least 5 sec less cooldown, the cooldown is way too long for what it does, and while we're on topic, a shave of at least 5 seconds off Blink is needed too, but this is a Virtuoso thread... All in all, i like it, good skill that supports the supposed playstyle of ranged dps, and if you're not doing ranged, you leave that one out for other stuff mesmer has. Great skill.

Sword of Decimation - Another one that's ok in PvE, but trash in WvW. It's too predictable, and so slow that it doesn't even force a dodge out of people, they just move out of it. Idk how you'd improve it, but whatever. It's better in group fights, but then it doesn't really do anything to groups. Needs to apply another condition except immob. Maybe weakness, or slow. Or maybe cripple when immob runs out, that would make it more useful in both PvE and WvW.

 

Thousand Cuts - Oh boy do i not like this elite... It's not trash, you can point it at a boss, and have it do all the (low) damage it does to it, but it's use in WvW and normal group mob fights is really bad. Even normal mobs just casually stroll out of its hitbox. For a "set and forget" skill, it needs to at least force a dodge out of someone. The damage needs to be scary so that people don't just casually tank a few hits, then stroll out of it like nothing happened. How you would do that if then damage would be too great for bosses? Well, you do it so that first hits do most damage, and as it goes, it does lower and lower damage. But only hits that HIT a target. Meaning, if someone in WvW was hit at the start of the duration, or at the end of the duration for the FIRST TIME, it deos full damage, and subsequent hits do less and less, no matter when the hits started. That way it's useful in WvW, and won't do a million damage to bosses since it's not a flat damage increase across the board. And will also be useful against mobs that run out of it. That's how you do set and forget skills.

 

Final thoughts:

 

I really went with an open mind in my Virtuoso playtime, i really wanted to meet it half way, but... They didn't go all the way. The sheer low effort is on display here, and i think the mesmer community deserved more attention than this. And the saddest part? There's potential here. Really is, it's just so half assed that i can't help but wonder if it's lazyness or lack of ideas or what?

First of all. Cloneless espec. Cool, i can get behind that, a more direct, more brutal mesmer, even bladesongs force you to be direct, cool. But why not go all the way? Why not ditch phantasms as well and turn it into skills that mesmer themselves do? But make it a way more powerful version, both number and utility wise, than the phantasm would have produced, so that it's worth it losing a summon to do the skill while you do something else at that time, and it's worth it to cast that skill yourself. Like, idk, make pistol phantasm skill make mesmer do that animation, but instead of just damage/cripple that pistol phantasm does, Virtuoso does that and also gains might, fury and for every hit. So that your offhand sword launches you at your target instead of the phantasm, make it a better version of the skill you already changed, sword 3, maybe a shadowstep instead of a leap, a gap closer in WvW, and unblockable copared to phantasm's just damage.

Stuff like that. Virtuoso on a whole feels so unfinished, but it could be good, there's potential, but it needs to be distinct from core. Right now it's a worse version of core. But what if it does away with all illusions? Not just clones, and gains their abilibies, but far more powerful to cast themselves? That would be a definite change in gameplay, and much more useful on all weapons. Even the skills that Virtuoso got now, they don't mitigate the loss of core functionality enough for them to be worth it over taking chrono or core. Mirage is in a league of it's own cause it changes the gameplay more drastically and differently than Virtuoso. So it's not compareable. But core definitely is, and it's not a good look when taking core is kind of a better option than an espec.

 

And don't get me wrong, i can see how it can be fun for people to play. In open world PvE, it's not offensive enough to be trash, most of it works, kinda, needs to be better still for this to truly be an espec, but i'm not above getting my dopamine hit from all the flashy animations and skill effects like your casual player. It's a game after all and i want to have fun. And i's fun to watch, the animation/FX department did their jobs here and did them good. But the core functionality of Virtuoso needs work. 

 

So when people say Virtuoso has problems, and it's a bad espec, they're not lying. As an espec, and the functionality it brings and should bring, it's bad. I can see how people would like it, but as it stands, it's mostly fluff without substance. I'll probably continue playing it for the sheer spectacle in PvE, but i'll keep my Celestial Mirage, and for WvW i'll still use Chrono.

 

In the end, i don't hate it. There's potential here, but it's disingenuous of people when they say Virtuoso is fine. It's not fine, saying so only kills any hope of making Virtuoso a truly great espec. I get that you're having fun with it, but it's not fine. It needs proper work to make it good, and i think mesmer players deserve more than we got. 

 

EDIT: Some tidbits i forgot to add:

 

Rain of Swords for some reason when you cast it on the Oil in WvW, spams "obstructed". This shouldn't be the case. Oil already has reflect (if mastered) as defense, no need to obstruct an aoe when all other aoe's work.

 

Rain of Swords - lower cast time in WvW, too long cast time

 

Virtuoso has no condi clense, and no really good condi clense synergies in traits. If you're going to make it like that on purpose, then again, needs to do a lot more DPS to survive. 

 

Blades don't stock when on mounts... This is a problem in WvW as some zerg travel on mounts and you're at a disadvantage if you need to unmount to wait for blades to stock, or arrive at the destination not fully prepared as you could be, or worse, have to waste Blade Renewal at the start of the battle just to stock up. 

 

Psychic Riposte is too awkward to pull off and too punishing to actively seek out that playstyle just so you can do an unblockable attack. Needs another better way to grant unblockable.

 

Infinite Forge - Ok Major adept level trait, but trash Major Grandmaster trait.

 

Will edit more if i remember anything else.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Veprovina.4876

[Gwynnion.7364]

Thanks for one of the more even-handed reviews on here.

A lot of people seem to hate Virtuoso because it has no clones, which are only really useful for shattering anyway or for Mirage and Infinite Horizon, while also insisting it doesn't change enough from core Mesmer, which seems kinda bizarre to me.

Virtuoso's problem, as you pointed out, is it doesn't do enough damage and it isn't consistent enough with the damage it has. Its condi options are just kinda thrown in there, too. It doesn't have great sustain either. But that would be forgivable if it hit fast and hard. But at the moment, it's a lot of work for mediocre results.

I think it's fun, I like the style, and it's a nice break from Mirage and Chronomancer, but like other EoD elite specs, it just doesn't do enough. And I would much rather see these specs buffed to PoF levels instead of having to slog through content at Virtuoso's current power level.

[Veprovina.4876]

1 minute ago, Gwynnion.7364 said:

Thanks for one of the more even-handed reviews on here.

A lot of people seem to hate Virtuoso because it has no clones, which are only really useful for shattering anyway or for Mirage and Infinite Horizon, while also insisting it doesn't change enough from core Mesmer, which seems kinda bizarre to me.

Virtuoso's problem, as you pointed out, is it doesn't do enough damage and it isn't consistent enough with the damage it has. Its condi options are just kinda thrown in there, too. It doesn't have great sustain either. But that would be forgivable if it hit fast and hard. But at the moment, it's a lot of work for mediocre results.

I think it's fun, I like the style, and it's a nice break from Mirage and Chronomancer, but like other EoD elite specs, it just doesn't do enough. And I would much rather see these specs buffed to PoF levels instead of having to slog through content at Virtuoso's current power level.

Well, i don't hate that it doesn't have clones, but yes, for a DPS spec, it doesn't do dps, and for loss of clones, it has nothing to account for that, in WvW you're defenseelss. That's really bad.

If they doubled down on that selfish ranged DPS shtick, it would be fine, then it would be like rangers, kill or be killed.

But yeah, doesn't do too much, right now it's lacking a lot, but well, if Anet deems us worthy, maybe they'll finally listen to us and fix Virtuoso. 

[Gwynnion.7364]

I haven't tried all the EoD specs now that they're live -- I doubt much has changed since the last beta -- but aside from Harbinger, they seemed terrified of letting them do any real damage.

[phokus.8934]

16 minutes ago, Gwynnion.7364 said:

I haven't tried all the EoD specs now that they're live -- I doubt much has changed since the last beta -- but aside from Harbinger, they seemed terrified of letting them do any real damage.

Vindicator in pvp is kind of bananas at the moment.

[Gwynnion.7364]

Yeah, I'm ashamed to admit I've got a pogo stick Vindicator, but it seems weird how much of her damage comes from dodging compared to everything else!

[Tseison.4659]

Heya! I won’t write too much since I’ve done so in the feedback thread and my new one in the Final Virtuoso Changes Thread. 

Though I’m just gonna mention in terms of the utilities that as “nice as they are,” they could’ve been better or more unique. Rain of Swords, Sword of Decimation and Thousand Cuts are essentially the same, just one is horizontal. Rain of Swords and Sword of Decimation could’ve easily been merged and have the duration and damage increased to that of Thousand Cuts. Leaving Thousand Cuts and Sword of Decimation to be changed into something more useful. 

Psychic Force is nice, however, if it was like what the Catalyst got in their Windstorm skill would be amazing! If not that, they should’ve atleast given Psychic Force an increase knockback depending on the range of a nearby foe, knocking enemies farther if they’re obviously standing on top of you since Virtuoso is clearly meant to be played at range.

Lastly, Blade Renewal I liked using during Beta #1, but ever since the Blade Generation buff, I personally don’t see a point in taking it because I generate enough blades BUT never have shatters available to use them which in the end I feel they should’ve given each Bladesong an extra charge to combat that overflow of blades. Additionally, we’re so conditioned to Distortion being on F4, that in all honesty, Blade Renewal and Bladeturn Requiem should’ve switched places. Make Bladeturn Requiem a utility, give it 2 charges and perhaps a reduced duration and we’re good. 

Other than that, this is just my opinion and hands on insight in regards to the virtuoso throughout Beta #1 and #4. I still won’t play it but if they ever do any changes like what I just mentioned and what has been mentioned by others in the feedback, I might consider it again. 

Thank you for the write up, good job! 😄

Edited March 10, 2022 by Tseison.4659

[Infinity.2876]

• Why do you use all Virtuoso utilities? I get that you just testing but it seems overly debilitating and than necessary but nice thoughts btw

[Veprovina.4876]

9 minutes ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Heya! I won’t write too much since I’ve done so in the feedback thread and my new one in the Final Virtuoso Changes Thread. 

Though I’m just gonna mention in terms of the utilities that as “nice as they are,” they could’ve been better or more unique. Rain of Swords, Sword of Decimation and Thousand Cuts are essentially the same, just one is horizontal. Rain of Swords and Sword of Decimation could’ve easily been merged and have the duration and damage increased to that of Thousand Cuts. Leaving Thousand Cuts and Sword of Decimation to be changed into something more useful. 

Well yes, now that you mention it, kinda. Maybe merge Rain of Swords with Sword of Decimation, and make a new utility skill in its place. That would probably also be the needed buff to Rain of Swords, if it got immobile and a bit more damage from Sword of Decimation. It's definitely an idea.

9 minutes ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Psychic Force is nice, however, if it was like what the Catalyst got in their Windstorm skill would be amazing! If not that, they should’ve atleast given Psychic Force an increase knockback depending on the range of a nearby foe, knocking enemies farther if they’re obviously standing on top of you since Virtuoso is clearly meant to be played at range.

Lastly, Blade Renewal I liked using during Beta #1, but ever since the Blade Generation buff, I personally don’t see a point in taking it because I generate enough blades BUT never have shatters available to use them which in the end I feel they should’ve given each Bladesong an extra charge to combat that overflow of blades. Additionally, we’re so conditioned to Distortion being on F4, that in all honesty, Blade Renewal and Bladeturn Requiem should’ve switched places. Make Bladeturn Requiem a utility, give it 2 charges and perhaps a reduced duration and we’re good. 

Personally, i never use Blade renewal in PvE, i should have mentioned, i'ts great in WvW context. I also never run out of blades in PvE, especially since that trait (that shouldn't be grandmaster but whatever). But all in all it's a good skill, maybe if they change F4 to how i proposed, make it either a scary melee repellant or a better defensive option, it would be ok. Psychic Force, i thought it was ok, but takes too long to cooldown for what it does. Waaaay too long, like, there's really no need for such a long cooldown, Bosses have repeated CC phases after first CC phase use and it was still on cooldown when the boss entered the second CC phase.

9 minutes ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Other than that, this is just my opinion and hands on insight in regards to the virtuoso throughout Beta #1 and #4. I still won’t play it but if they ever do any changes like what I just mentioned and what has been mentioned by others in the feedback, I might consider it again. 

Thank you for the write up, good job! 😄

Thanks! 🙂

I'll play it some more. I'm curious what will it be like if i go full damage. That's the only thing left for me to test.

Still won't change any opinions, as most of mine were based on the mechanics of certain skills, but i wanna see what a "proper" Virtuoso build would look like. 

[Veprovina.4876]

1 minute ago, Infinity.2876 said:

• Why do you use all Virtuoso utilities? I get that you just testing but it seems overly debilitating and than necessary but nice thoughts btw

Like i said, i wanted to see what Virtuoso alone has to bring to the table, without relying on anything already in Core.

I could probably do away with a skill or two, but i actually find them ok combination in PvE. I still think what i said about them, but as far as utilities themselves, they complimented my build pretty decently. 

 

I tried Sword/Sword, Dagger/Focus, with different traits, at that point, those utilites weren't good anymore, but for pure ranged DPS, it was ok.

[ClickToKill.8473]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Especs are supposed to be better than core no?

 

 

 

Just commenting on this.  Anet never stated E-Specs were supposed to be "better" than core spec.  E-Specs were supposed to be an alternative with a trade off to playing the core specs, like you give up power in one area to gain power in another.  Of course after 7-8 years of e-specs, that hasn't always been the case and either e-specs overperform or underperform when compared to the core spec of a class, but that falls upon balance.   

 

That said, Anet has probably reserved the power in some of the new e-specs after the madness that happened with PoF launch, where pretty much every e-spec was overperforming. 

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Gwynnion.7364 said:

A lot of people seem to hate Virtuoso because it has no clones

People keep saying this but I have never seen anybody complain that Virtuoso doesn't have clones, just that it gives nothing back after taking clones away so it ends up feeling like Mesmer 0.5.

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Gwynnion.7364 said:

 

A lot of people seem to hate Virtuoso because it has no clones, which are only really useful for shattering anyway or for Mirage and Infinite Horizon, while also insisting it doesn't change enough from core Mesmer, which seems kinda bizarre to me.

 

Untrue many people have asked for a cloneless spec for a long time, even those who stuck around since vanilla days of gw2 have been crying out for cloneless Mesmer me included. Just didn't ask for a half baked cloneless spec.

If Virtuoso was the first e-spec to be introduced to the game then it would be completely fine, fact is they already have Chrono AND Mirage, PoF isn't the biggest offender to "powercreep" it was HoT.

The introduction to Alacrity was a mistake to begin with paired with the over amount of quickness you can get nowadays compared to how scarce it was back then. Its not even just alacrity or quickness, its boons in general. Professions are able to self provide every boon in the game as well as near perma uptime on might stacks.

I keep reminding people who do remember the Core days in which it required 2 staff guardians, staff ele, to uptime swiftness + might stacks. For those newer players you guys probably don't understand setup before engaging in WvW, zergs had to sit in a corner blasting fire fields and lightning fields to stack might and swiftness stacks, nowadays you dont need to do any of that just head and rush in. This is also a reason why glamour Mesmer were so strong because there wasnt a overly abundant of boons to strip, even being able to strip 1 boon is detrimental to the fight.

[Veprovina.4876]

2 hours ago, ClickToKill.8473 said:

 

Just commenting on this.  Anet never stated E-Specs were supposed to be "better" than core spec.  E-Specs were supposed to be an alternative with a trade off to playing the core specs, like you give up power in one area to gain power in another.  Of course after 7-8 years of e-specs, that hasn't always been the case and either e-specs overperform or underperform when compared to the core spec of a class, but that falls upon balance.   

 

That said, Anet has probably reserved the power in some of the new e-specs after the madness that happened with PoF launch, where pretty much every e-spec was overperforming. 

Maybe once upon a time, but over the years, they made that a fact. No one brings Core Guardian to WvW when Firebrand is an option. So while things are like they are, everyone expects an espec to be a better option than all core.

 

Virtuoso almost doesn't make the cut. Core does what Virtuoso does better. And Virtuoso doesn't have enough of its own identity and mechanics to make up for what is lost. The loss of clones isn't offset by any new defense options (aegis isn't a good substitute when boonstrip exists), there's no damage to make up for loss of burst, and there's no reward for being forced to face your opponent when shattering and even healing. 

 

So, since, Virtuoso is so similar to core, it needs to be better to be a viable choice, regardless of wether or not especs are supposed to be better or not. Right now it's not. But hey, we'll se if anet finally decides to do right by mesmers. If they fix Virtuoso, do away with phantasms, make Virt do those skills for added effect, more powerful versions of them, then i wouldn't be mad if i had to face my targets to shatter, cause i'd have utility/damage that core, or even other elites don't have. Also, other stuff i said up there, no need to repeat.

 

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

People keep saying this but I have never seen anybody complain that Virtuoso doesn't have clones, just that it gives nothing back after taking clones away so it ends up feeling like Mesmer 0.5.

Yeah, people are more mad that, they haven't done anything to make up for it being cloneless. Personally i'm fine with a cloneless espec. It's certainly not for everyone, but there's Mirage for those people cause mirage wants to keep the clones up instead of shatter. 

 

But Virtuoso, yeah, the cloneless thing is the least of its problems. 😛

 

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Untrue many people have asked for a cloneless spec for a long time, even those who stuck around since vanilla days of gw2 have been crying out for cloneless Mesmer me included. Just didn't ask for a half baked cloneless spec.

If Virtuoso was the first e-spec to be introduced to the game then it would be completely fine, fact is they already have Chrono AND Mirage, PoF isn't the biggest offender to "powercreep" it was HoT.

The introduction to Alacrity was a mistake to begin with paired with the over amount of quickness you can get nowadays compared to how scarce it was back then. Its not even just alacrity or quickness, its boons in general. Professions are able to self provide every boon in the game as well as near perma uptime on might stacks.

I keep reminding people who do remember the Core days in which it required 2 staff guardians, staff ele, to uptime swiftness + might stacks. For those newer players you guys probably don't understand setup before engaging in WvW, zergs had to sit in a corner blasting fire fields and lightning fields to stack might and swiftness stacks, nowadays you dont need to do any of that just head and rush in. This is also a reason why glamour Mesmer were so strong because there wasnt a overly abundant of boons to strip, even being able to strip 1 boon is detrimental to the fight.

Yeah, i remember threads asking for removal of clones. 

But kitten is Virtuoso half baked if anything. It feels so unfinished and it's frustrating cause it could have been great! The idea is threre, but the execution, my god Anet, in how little regard you hold us... 

 

But yeah, i really think that, if they make phantasm skills Virtuoso speciallity, that Virt does the attack themselves, but with added functionality (like, GS phantasm skill could be longer range, virt themselves does the berserking then blinks to starting position, and gets a boon while struck enemies get a condition). That would differentiate it enough for it to be a true espec on its own, and done right, could be the difference between the DPS if they're going for all that selfish full DPS thing. Cause right now it's not doing enough DPS to be "only DPS" without any party support. 

 

I mean, that's fine, but then make it do damage if damage is the only thing that it does right? Make it be wort it in parties. Are you gonna get a pure DPS Virtuoso, or are you gonna get idk, Guardian that does some DPS but also provides some boons, idk, not remembering what everyone does right now but you get the gist.

 

But the boon thing - you nailed it. The boon spam theese days is insane compared to how it was. In WvW, in a prolonged fight, like on SM, i managed to strip 400+ boons off enemies, you know how much that is, that's insane! The closest second after me managed i think around 270 or something, thrid not being that far off, that's 600+ boons between the top 5  boonstrippers - PER FIGHT, it's crazy! No wonder this game is so hard to balance. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Veprovina.4876

[Artyport.2084]

They really should go all the way and scrap the phantasms. 
 

just let the Mesmer do the skills.

I've always wanted a mesmer i had complete control over. 
 

Virtuoso either needs more power or more sustain.

I personally vote for more sustain. 
 

scrap the phantasms gain phantasmal armor let the mesmer do the spinny greatsword thing. 
 

alternatively.

 

make each mainhands auto attack a blade so every weapon can benifit from the blade traits.

 

staff and scepter should both shoot daggers
 

[mungozen.2379]

6 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

bladesongs themselves are not as good at crowds as shattering clones is

I appreciate the time you put into your review.  I wanted to touch on this point though, thinking specifically of groups of 3+ mobs to AoE down.

Bladesongs do change the way you AoE and are stronger in different circumstances than normal Clone Shatters.  I don't see them as better or worse, just different.

I feel that Bladesongs work better with ranged builds of Virtuoso, as they lend themselves to Kiting fairly well.  If you know how to use terrain and mob pathing to your advantage, you can line up a lot of good Bladesongs.

I also think that carrying Blades from target to target is undervalued.  Being able to tab target to any mob of your choice to unload a Bladesong gives you some versatility that Clone Shatters don't have.

[Salt Mode.3780]

7 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

I appreciate the time you put into your review.  I wanted to touch on this point though, thinking specifically of groups of 3+ mobs to AoE down.

Bladesongs do change the way you AoE and are stronger in different circumstances than normal Clone Shatters.  I don't see them as better or worse, just different.

I feel that Bladesongs work better with ranged builds of Virtuoso, as they lend themselves to Kiting fairly well.  If you know how to use terrain and mob pathing to your advantage, you can line up a lot of good Bladesongs.

I also think that carrying Blades from target to target is undervalued.  Being able to tab target to any mob of your choice to unload a Bladesong gives you some versatility that Clone Shatters don't have.

I've posted this somewhere else but a simple example is taking camp from WvW, clones are always going to be better then Bladesongs in terms of how fast you are able to solo capture camp. Using mob spacing as reference. Melee mobs are never going to stack with ranged and the only way thats going to happen is if u use focus pull.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[mungozen.2379]

39 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I've posted this somewhere else but a simple example is taking camp from WvW, clones are always going to be better then Bladesongs in terms of how fast you are able to solo capture camp. Using mob spacing as reference. Melee mobs are never going to stack with ranged and the only way thats going to happen is if u use focus pull.

I wouldn't consider Virtuoso let alone Mesmer in WvW..... it doesn't do it for me.  I would agree that flipping a camp might prove to be harder than something similar in OW.

In OW PvE, I have been using the following to group up and AoE down regular, Vet and Elite mobs.

Focus 4/Temporal Curtain -> Sword of Decimation -> Immediate Focus 4/Into the Void

The effect is the pull happens as the SoD drops locking the mobs in place for a four seconds.  You can launch into Thousand Cuts,  Rain of Swords, Bladesong Harmony and whatever other AoE you are using and hit all (up to 5) of the mobs before the Immob wears off.

This proves to be effective enough opener to burst down most mobs, and set up a good finish on Vets/Elites.

[Veprovina.4876]

2 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

I appreciate the time you put into your review.  I wanted to touch on this point though, thinking specifically of groups of 3+ mobs to AoE down.

Bladesongs do change the way you AoE and are stronger in different circumstances than normal Clone Shatters.  I don't see them as better or worse, just different.

Thank you! 🙂

Well they're definitely different and true, when i was trying a melee Virtuoso build, they were'nt as good. I like them better at range, but i've had them miss too much over the past 2 weeks, and enemies just moving away slightly, or using skills that move them, and bladesongs missing everything but the target. Idk if that was bugs or what, but i don't see them nearly as consistent as normal clone shatters were.

2 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

I feel that Bladesongs work better with ranged builds of Virtuoso, as they lend themselves to Kiting fairly well.  If you know how to use terrain and mob pathing to your advantage, you can line up a lot of good Bladesongs.

Exactly, it depends too much on stuff you have no control over. If you send a group of clones to shatter at a mob, with mob 2 and 3 slightly to the left of mob 1, they all get whacked. With bladesongs, you have to position yourself first so that all are in a line, and then target the furthest one... It's clunky. 

2 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

I also think that carrying Blades from target to target is undervalued.  Being able to tab target to any mob of your choice to unload a Bladesong gives you some versatility that Clone Shatters don't have.

Honestly, Chrono, Core and mirage can all dish out 3 clones in the time it takes Virtuoso to cast a bladesong. it's a 3/4 cast time, i can have 3 clones up by then and ready to shatter without delay. So you don't really get anything by carrying blades around.

It's nice that you can switch targets without losing blades, i'll give you that, i'm quite enjoying that. Mirage had some tricks you can do to clones to switch targets without losing them, but nothing as elegant as Virtuoso has. So yeah. Keeping blades stocking them up on one target, tab to antoher to bladesong, quite nice. 

 

1 hour ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

I wouldn't consider Virtuoso let alone Mesmer in WvW.....

Viper's Axe mirage is kinda nice for a roamer, you can suprirse a lot of people with it, they don't expect the burst lol. But it's either, you kill someone in 10 seconds or you're done, there's no inbetween.

Virtuoso is horrible in WvW for the reasons i already said.

 

1 hour ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Focus 4/Temporal Curtain -> Sword of Decimation -> Immediate Focus 4/Into the Void

The effect is the pull happens as the SoD drops locking the mobs in place for a four seconds.  You can launch into Thousand Cuts,  Rain of Swords, Bladesong Harmony and whatever other AoE you are using and hit all (up to 5) of the mobs before the Immob wears off.

This proves to be effective enough opener to burst down most mobs, and set up a good finish on Vets/Elites.

Haha, i see i wasn't the only one to use that. 😛

Sometimes you can even get away without a focus, but yeah, you need them stacked for bladesongs.

Lately i just mimic Rain of Swords...

[elluka.5970]

21 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

First of all. Cloneless espec. Cool, i can get behind that, a more direct, more brutal mesmer, even bladesongs force you to be direct, cool. But why not go all the way? Why not ditch phantasms as well and turn it into skills that mesmer themselves do? But make it a way more powerful version, both number and utility wise, than the phantasm would have produced, so that it's worth it losing a summon to do the skill while you do something else at that time, and it's worth it to cast that skill yourself. Like, idk, make pistol phantasm skill make mesmer do that animation, but instead of just damage/cripple that pistol phantasm does, Virtuoso does that and also gains might, fury and for every hit. So that your offhand sword launches you at your target instead of the phantasm, make it a better version of the skill you already changed, sword 3, maybe a shadowstep instead of a leap, a gap closer in WvW, and unblockable copared to phantasm's just damage.

Stuff like that. Virtuoso on a whole feels so unfinished, but it could be good, there's potential, but it needs to be distinct from core. Right now it's a worse version of core. But what if it does away with all illusions? Not just clones, and gains their abilibies, but far more powerful to cast themselves? That would be a definite change in gameplay, and much more useful on all weapons. Even the skills that Virtuoso got now, they don't mitigate the loss of core functionality enough for them to be worth it over taking chrono or core. Mirage is in a league of it's own cause it changes the gameplay more drastically and differently than Virtuoso. So it's not compareable. But core definitely is, and it's not a good look when taking core is kind of a better option than an espec.

 

In the end, i don't hate it. There's potential here, but it's disingenuous of people when they say Virtuoso is fine. It's not fine, saying so only kills any hope of making Virtuoso a truly great espec. I get that you're having fun with it, but it's not fine. It needs proper work to make it good, and i think mesmer players deserve more than we got. 

I tried virtuoso only few day,  there is new thing there but just not enough, not as much as the fresh concept chrono / mirage provide. 

 

I almost feel like I getting a fairly new mechanic : F1~F4 brand new shatter skill and such style, and that's almost all this e-spec offer me .

 

The feeling of dagger skill is boring and soft,  the visual effect has nothing to do with dangerous blade, instead it looks like elegant feather floating on the wind, and that's a serious issue for me, not impactful at all.

The utility is mostly boring, and it tickles.

The elite is the most hilarious one, the micro hitbox and the damage, there is nothing special to make it an elite skill.

 

This let me think the utility and elite skill has almost no meaning for me, I feel like I'm playing a 1/3 new elite specialization.

I don't care about the damage, and meta or what so ever, the first thing came to my mind is the flow a class can provide, the rotation, the movement, the skill connection, the mood forming by animation.

 

If some profession doing busted damage but have mostly same pattern and the skill, rotation is boring as fk , then what's the point of it?

I believe a truly enjoyable skill / rotate design should let player feel engage and excited even without showing any information of damage number, just so fluent and nice to connect the skill itself    Not for the numbers, just for the fun.

 

----

 

Your idea is such a inspiration to me.

When I first saw this long-waiting specialization, I'm hyped for the description : sharpen their mind into deadly psionic blade.

Then I think why just sharpen their mind into psionic "blade"?    it can be any iconic weapon in psionic form, and perhaps this make it the truly unique identity for virtuoso.

 

I got some phantasm skill imagination base on your idea.

 

Its like elementalist's conjure weapon, but in a psionic form.

Its like guardian's spirit weapon in a non-physical way, but player do the fancy attack themself.

 

mostly remove the phantasm preparation movement, straight up cast the new special phantasm skill.

Makes it more direct, active and close to the theme of this specialization.

 

-Sword 5 phantasm :

Forming a temporary psionic sword, leap forward to stab your foe. If land the stab then daze for 1 sec then doing 180 range, unblockable blurred frenzy for 1sec.

If using sword / sword weapon set, you instead forming dual psionic sword, doing double hit → double damage.

 

-Greatsword 4 phantasm :

Forming a temporary psionic HUGE greatsword, spin yourself and throw it out, it spin forward to 600 range in wide path - 

I'm talking about revenant's Jalis stone road wide, not virtuoso's kitten thousand cuts wide.

 

So the trigger range is no longer 1200, but it becomes a close to mid range(600) heavy damage AOE.

Also I 'm not a fan of mesmer doing the phantasm berserker movement, because that animation has already used by warrior's GS3 and elementalist's elite fire GS3, and it will mess with the camera movement a bit, which is not good for the facing mechanic on bladesong shatter skill.

 

If using Domination adept trait - bountiful blades, the psionic greatsword deal 80% damage, but travels back along the same path, doing double hit.

Also the Domination adept trait in virtuoso : special phantasm skill deal 25% more damage (since no longer have clone or phantasm as illusion).

 

-Pistol 4 phantasm :

Forming a temporary psionic double revolver, while unload 12 bullets to your foe, you can move while shooting and move 50% faster.

bullets can pierces, and hit up to 900 range.

 

-Staff 3 phantasm : 

Forming a temporary psionic staff, firing powerful energy beam toward target that can pierce,  up to 900 range.

if beam touch enemy, each hit apply vulnerability, plus fire or torment condition. final hit apply double stack and remove 2 boon.

if beam touch ally, each hit apply fury and might.  final hit apply stability and convert 2 conditions into 2 boons.

 

-Focus 5 phantasm :

Creating a energy field around the mesmer that absorb projectiles and will be auto charge up to 3 sec. 

Each time absorb a projectile, gain might, fury and vigor. 

 

After 3 sec, explode with massive single hit damage within 180 range and apply 20 stacks vulnerability for 10sec.   

Its a blast finisher.

Absorbing any projectile make full charged field explosion unblockable.

 

Player can use other skill while energy field exist, but weapon swap detonate it immediately.

Energy field can be manually detonate before full charged(3 sec), but doing 50% damage and vulnerability stacks.

 

-Torch 5 phantasm :

Spreading a psionic gunpowder, causing blind, then quickly ignite the powder with torch causing big explosion in front of you within 240 range, dealing massive stack of burning and daze for 1 sec.

 

---

 

Other than virtuoso's own phantasm skill, I got some idea about dagger and utility skill

 

-Dagger 3 : 

Remove utility : rain of sword,  dagger 3 skill change to : throwing a powerful psionic dagger onto target location up to 900 range, calling a storm of dagger around it and get larger gradually.   

First hit of dagger landing cause cripple.   

Dagger is non-destructible.    Storm radius growing from 180 to 300 then disappear.

 

(Slow travel storm with random lucky hit?   Come on you got better move...)

 

By merge the utility rain of sword to dagger 3,  make dagger more appealing as a mid range weapon.

Now we got an empty utility space to create something.

 

-Utility   sword of decimation : 

Change to guillotine of decimation : become a 2 hit skill.

first hit dropping a psionic shackle from the sky, remove 2 boons and make foes immobilize.       

second hit dropping a gigantic psionic guillotine.    

guillotine cause 100% more damage to immobilize foes, and 100% more to CCed foe.

So if someone is CCed and immobilize, guillotine dealing 4 times damage.       

 

Downed foes / enemy with defiance bar always taking 4 times damage by guillotine.

 

---

To me the problem is not the number, the skill flow matters more.

Scourge is one of the example of extremely boring playstyle to me, basically put some dirty weird shade at some place, and pulsing some weird thing around that shade, that's about the 80% of skill flow I feel, just boring as fk to me.

 

That's some random idea from my head, If they can make virtuoso's phantasm interesting, I'm willing to pay half price of the expansion just to play such a class...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by elluka.5970

[Ombras.2853]

Support Chrono is very good in WvW.

Let’s not be “everything is horrible” just to prove a point that doesn’t exist.

 

[Veprovina.4876]

25 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Support Chrono is very good in WvW.

Let’s not be “everything is horrible” just to prove a point that doesn’t exist.

 

Who said it wasn't? And what point would that be?

Edited March 11, 2022 by Veprovina.4876

[Mell.4873]

On 3/11/2022 at 8:31 AM, Veprovina.4876 said:

So, when EoD came out, i immediately took my Staff mirage and for a few missions, i didn't even consider Virtuoso.

But then, what the hell, i though, why not give it a go. So i unlocked it with my spare HP (i had 100% world completion in every zone with my mesmer so i didn't even need to do HPs in Cantha).

And i wanted to give it a chance, really give it a chance, try to work with what we got, adjust the playstyle etc., everything that's needed. 

 

My first try, cause i had Viper's gear, was condi. I knew i wanted to do a power build, but since i had Viper's everything, i thought why not. 

First off the bat - the dagger and its ascended version is beautiful! And so are the gloves, i like the effect they have, kinda "shattery" particles around. 

And good thing i decided to first try condi cause there's only condi options on that dagger to choose from. I'm not going to go into detail about that, there's already a thread about it, but that was a red flag to say the least.

 

But whatever, i chose Ritualist's, Illusion, Dueling, Virtuoso 3/3/3 and roamed the new maps a bit.

Needles to say, it kinda sucked. All the "condi" traits seem to still be centered around kind of a power gear, condi seems really weird on Virtuoso. 

 

Jagged Mind - a lot of reliance on crit, meaning, you're stuck with Viper's as it's the only one with enough damage and crit chance. Trailblazer and Ritualist's and half of other condi gear makes this trait useless more or less. Any % you get from fury isn't going to make night and day difference on bleeding from that crit chance, idk... Seems too confining. It's nice that condi heals you though.

 

Sharpening Sorrow - wouldn't it be more useful if crit gives you expertise? not just fury? and don't tell me "op, op", other professions have way more broken abilities. so since condi on Virtuoso relies on crit, then make it crit based, why just fury?

 

Bloodsong - Yeah, since bleeding is what it is, this felt like a mandatory addition to boost bleed damage. But... This is a minor adept trait functionality at best, why is this a grandmaster trait? 

 

Anyway... I wasn't vibing with it so i switched to power.

 

This is the build i used for open world and base my observations upon:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiyAgqFllyYZrsWmLOSXqRVA-zRpYVRwCSMICzIBBCnUBzKkAXShkZEERKkRBYyJRIp9ACQRAA-e

 

If it looks mismatched, that's because it is. I made the build from what i had laying around. I only have full legendary armor set, Aurora and Prismatic amulet. The rest are what i dug up out of my bank that somehow fit power-ish attributes. I decided to go with Dragon's cause why not, looks neat and new to explore, plus, all virtuoso utility skills and elites cause i didn't want to try how it works with what i already had, but what Virtuoso itself brings to the table.

 

That said, on to the "review".

 

My power based experience (even if it's very mismatched), turned out way more enjoyable, as expected. Until i went into WvW but i'll get to that later. 

The only modes i tried were open world, WvW roaming and WvW guild raid. I didn't do any instanced content with it. So i won't comment on instanced stuff, only what i tried.

 

As for the open world, the experience wasn't bad. The animations, skill effects and all that fluff are really well done, very detailed, and F4 bladesong destroys my FPS how fancy it is, the animation team did a great job with it, and it's a very flashy experience playing Virtuoso. 

 

Mechanically though... They didn't go all the way. They needed to go all the way, and that's i think Virtuosos biggest failure.

Let me explain.

 

I have no issues with Virtuoso being a cloneless espec. Scourge fundamentally changed how necro is played, replacing how shroud works with something entirely else while keeping the "shroud ammo", every warrior espec just slightly changed how its class mechanic works, but profoundly changed the gameplay because of it, etc. 

With Virtuoso, it quickly became clear i'm playing a core shatter mesmer. Except worse. See, with core mesmer, and since Chrono changed kitten all when shatters are concenrned, even chrono, you can "multitask". Summon a phantasm and while it does its attack, go into sword 2 animation while simultaneously sending your clones to shatter, giving you a large burst. That's also possible with other similar weapon and phantasm skills, you can pile damage on top of each other. But since Virtuoso needs to do a little dance every bladesong, and they added that cast time, it's no longer possible. Furthermore, you now need to face your target to "shatter", and bladesongs themselves are not as good at crowds as shattering clones is. So you lost burst, lost the ability to shatter in any direction, but gained... What exactly? 5 blades that persist between encounters? I'm not sure that's a good tradeoff, like, yes, you can shatter immediately, but that's not a good replacement, especially since core can do it better. Especs are supposed to be better than core no?

 

So let's see what else Virtuoso could bring to the table to offset this. Well, the AOE potential is pretty good i'm not gonna lie. But it's again, half assed. Needs work. For instance, Bladesong Harmony is a pierce attack. So it does damage in a line. That line seems awfully thin to be an "area" effect. Yes, a line is also an area effect, but this hitbox seems so small that it barely can function as that. But ok, pierce attacks are normal+ attacks, anything else they hit is just a bonus. Not very useful for WvW. Again... Later. Bladesong Sorrow is... What exactly, one target skill? It loos great, but i never could figure out what exactly it did, if anything besides the target. Bladesong Dissonance is just bad, doesnt' need to be AOE, but ouch is that the worst CC skill or what? People have already pointed out every single problem with it, so i'm not going to, but this skill needs to change. Bladeturn Requiem, again, strictly worse than core's Distortion. It needs to either be a decent damage skill or a way better damage mitigation skill than it is. Right now it's neither here nor there. Sure, it deals damage, but might as well not how low it is, i never saw it do a dent in anything, and the block wasn't good. Especially since it locks you into the animation and you can't do anything. This is a weapon skill, not a profession mechanic. Look at Spellbreaker's full counter. I'm not saying F4 needs to be like that, full counter is after all the entire espec mechanic, but it needs to at least do something, give boons, damage mitigation after its use, heal, make it scary for enemies while it's spinning around you, force them to make distance. Every single player, no matter how glass canon, facetanked the entirety of the Bladeturn Requiem's duration, that's really bad! Not to mention, in PvE, you basically just "dodge" once if you use it, it's not a good skill.

But back to the AOE part... Most of enemies in PvE easily just stepped out of any AOE i placed. The worst offender was Thousand Cuts. That's just not a good skill. It's "place and forget". Ok, fine. But the damage is so low that Rain of Swords outdamages it, even though that damage also needs a boost. Often times, groups of enemies would just casually side step out of its path, making the entire skill a useless cast. It would only work on bosses that are stationary, but even then, it just does a bit of damage, nothing you can't do with a few autoattack casts, it's not a utility let alone elite. It either needs a much wider area, or the damage needs to be dangerous enough to justify it not having any additional effects like vulnerability, weakness or immob. A few seconds of immob would be ok if it did that, then it would be useful, or something, but as a pure damage skill, ELITE mind you, it's just bad. Yes, it's unblockable. But if people can just stand in it and tank it, then it's not a good skill, is it?

The best i could have done, in PvE, was Sword of Decimation, then Thousand Cuts, Rain of Swords and spam bladesongs and skills for the immob duration. And you know what? It STILL didn't kill veteran mobs. Like, yes, i know i don't have full zerker gear, but i'm not THAT far off for 5 skills to not kill a vet enemy, let alone elites. Like, sure, it shouldn't be able to kill an elite mob with just 5 skills, that's ok, but 5 skills, one of which is an elite, should definitely kill a veteran mob, like, something isn't right here. Trash mob killing is ok, but with so much AOE potential, i found myself needing to cast Bladesong Harmony for every single enemy, all other AOE skills barely made a dent in groups. Idk if that's because the damage spreads out or soemthing, but the current AOE ability isn't on par what an elite should bring when it's the only thing it's bringing. There's no boons, no utility, nothing except damage that Virtuoso does, but it still doesn't do that good. If damage and AOE is the only thing that Virtuoso does, it needs to be best at it. As it stands, Reaper shroud skill 4 can outclass Virtuoso's 5 AOE skill casts, it's sad that 1 skill can be better than me casting 5 skills.

 

Now on to particular skills, and a bit of WvW explanations on them:

 

Blades - As with everything on virtuoso, shiny. But in WvW, Anet, you need to hide blade count from other players, it's way too predictable.

 

That's the TL;DR about WvW virtuoso, way too predictable, way too slow, not enough damage to be scary to offset the predictability. Everyone just, even with vitality gear, mowed me down in 1 or 2 skills. I meanwhile, had no way to defend myself, no clones to distract (HUGE, HUUGE loss), no skills to mitigate clone loss (what F4 should have been), i was just a painted target for everyone, and everyone just facetanked my attacks. Here again, mismatched gear, but if i went full berserker, i still wouldn't be able to do to people what they did to me, a full DPS spec that can't DPS, and everything is a projectile, so in certain instances i'm sure i killed myself at times. Like when announcing for half an hour that i'm casting a bladesong, which is not interruptable and WILL fire, but in the meantime, someone can just prepare a reflect and kill me.

 

Virtuoso is trash in WvW and anyone who defends it and says it's great for roaming and groups is lying. And yes, i did adjust my build before going in WvW, which also, by taking defensive stuff, further made my damage useless. Anet, why are you always so stingy with DPS on mesmer? Why can a soulbeast cast skill 2 and 1 shot people with it, but mesmers need to play piano to make a dent in anyone - that they will heal in 1 cast - and again, like with every spec, you waste all that you have to maybe get someone to 50%, and then you wait for cooldowns. 

Trash.

 

Bladesong Harmony - directional, has cast time, clunky AOE, but damage seems ok-ish. Not ok enough to lose the ability to cast it in any direction, but whatever, it's an ok skill. Not sure how well it tracks, if at all in WvW, but it at least forced a dodge in roaming encounters. But the worst part is i needed to be facing someone, and that's a HUGE handicap for how little damage it does in comparison. Needs to do more damage if you're forced to face your opponent, and maybe a wider AOE so that people can't just side step it. I'm not sure it tracks, it looks weird in WvW, if someone knows exactly how it works, please tell me.

Bladesong Sorrow - Mostly used it as a filler, condi options on Virtuoso are already bad as is, a condi bladesong idk, doesn't do much. Looks great though.

Bladesong Dissonance - Go read other 1000 threads on why this is trash, i'm not gonna repeat it here

Bladeturn Requiem - As mentioned above, it either needs to be better, right now it's trash, if it's gonna block, it needs to do more damage mitigation, if it's gonna do damage, it needs to be scary for people entering melee range. It needs to be a good melee repellant with all the spinning blades so that when someone sees that animation, they back away, not facetank the entirety of it while doing insane damage in the process. Make it apply weakness by default so that, even if someone does facetank it, it at least isn't punishing to the Virtuoso. Casting this skill now is self punishment and a free kill for your enemy. Trash.

 

Flying Cutter - ok auto, flurry of blades needs to apply vulnerability, like, at least 3 stacks, other than that, no complaints

Bladecall - Trash. It's a shotgun skill that doesn't do damage even if all 3 blades pass back and forth through your target. No one bothers to even dodge it. Only useful for stocking a blade. This needs to do WAY more damage. It needs to be a scary skill in WvW so that anyone who approaches you thinks twice and keeps their distance so that you, a RANGED DPS spec can do your job. If 1 blade hits, fine, slight damage, but if all 3 hit, it needs to hurt. Right now, no one had a problem being in melee range of me, and there were no penalties for anyone entering melee range. Rangers can at least wittle you down from insane range so by the time you enter melee you're at least softened. Then they have options, stealth, run away, pets. Virtuoso has nothing, and can't even damage foes going into range, can't even soften them like rangers can.

Unstable Bladestorm - ok i guess for groups. Needs to fire blades at less interval. Also, what exactly does damage, the whirlwind or the firing blades? And do blades track or just fire in random directions hoping to hit something? This skill is confusing. It's not the worst, but it's also not great, it's just ok.

 

Twin Blade Restoration - needs to fire in all directions, a directional heal that forces you to face your enemy is bad. other than that, it's ok

 

Blade Renewal - Great skill! Distortion, and stocks 5 blades! Helps double cast F1 if you made it an ammo skill, it's just a great skill.

Rain of Swords - Needs to do more damage. It's nice that it applies vulnerability, that's great, but the cast time and animation are so predictable in WvW that entire groups will move to avoid it. Ok in PvE, not that great in WvW groups, trash in roaming.

Psychic Force - Another great skill. Yes, Virtuoso has some. Shoves opponents off you, gives boons and is a CC. Needs to be at least 5 sec less cooldown, the cooldown is way too long for what it does, and while we're on topic, a shave of at least 5 seconds off Blink is needed too, but this is a Virtuoso thread... All in all, i like it, good skill that supports the supposed playstyle of ranged dps, and if you're not doing ranged, you leave that one out for other stuff mesmer has. Great skill.

Sword of Decimation - Another one that's ok in PvE, but trash in WvW. It's too predictable, and so slow that it doesn't even force a dodge out of people, they just move out of it. Idk how you'd improve it, but whatever. It's better in group fights, but then it doesn't really do anything to groups. Needs to apply another condition except immob. Maybe weakness, or slow. Or maybe cripple when immob runs out, that would make it more useful in both PvE and WvW.

 

Thousand Cuts - Oh boy do i not like this elite... It's not trash, you can point it at a boss, and have it do all the (low) damage it does to it, but it's use in WvW and normal group mob fights is really bad. Even normal mobs just casually stroll out of its hitbox. For a "set and forget" skill, it needs to at least force a dodge out of someone. The damage needs to be scary so that people don't just casually tank a few hits, then stroll out of it like nothing happened. How you would do that if then damage would be too great for bosses? Well, you do it so that first hits do most damage, and as it goes, it does lower and lower damage. But only hits that HIT a target. Meaning, if someone in WvW was hit at the start of the duration, or at the end of the duration for the FIRST TIME, it deos full damage, and subsequent hits do less and less, no matter when the hits started. That way it's useful in WvW, and won't do a million damage to bosses since it's not a flat damage increase across the board. And will also be useful against mobs that run out of it. That's how you do set and forget skills.

 

Final thoughts:

 

I really went with an open mind in my Virtuoso playtime, i really wanted to meet it half way, but... They didn't go all the way. The sheer low effort is on display here, and i think the mesmer community deserved more attention than this. And the saddest part? There's potential here. Really is, it's just so half assed that i can't help but wonder if it's lazyness or lack of ideas or what?

First of all. Cloneless espec. Cool, i can get behind that, a more direct, more brutal mesmer, even bladesongs force you to be direct, cool. But why not go all the way? Why not ditch phantasms as well and turn it into skills that mesmer themselves do? But make it a way more powerful version, both number and utility wise, than the phantasm would have produced, so that it's worth it losing a summon to do the skill while you do something else at that time, and it's worth it to cast that skill yourself. Like, idk, make pistol phantasm skill make mesmer do that animation, but instead of just damage/cripple that pistol phantasm does, Virtuoso does that and also gains might, fury and for every hit. So that your offhand sword launches you at your target instead of the phantasm, make it a better version of the skill you already changed, sword 3, maybe a shadowstep instead of a leap, a gap closer in WvW, and unblockable copared to phantasm's just damage.

Stuff like that. Virtuoso on a whole feels so unfinished, but it could be good, there's potential, but it needs to be distinct from core. Right now it's a worse version of core. But what if it does away with all illusions? Not just clones, and gains their abilibies, but far more powerful to cast themselves? That would be a definite change in gameplay, and much more useful on all weapons. Even the skills that Virtuoso got now, they don't mitigate the loss of core functionality enough for them to be worth it over taking chrono or core. Mirage is in a league of it's own cause it changes the gameplay more drastically and differently than Virtuoso. So it's not compareable. But core definitely is, and it's not a good look when taking core is kind of a better option than an espec.

 

And don't get me wrong, i can see how it can be fun for people to play. In open world PvE, it's not offensive enough to be trash, most of it works, kinda, needs to be better still for this to truly be an espec, but i'm not above getting my dopamine hit from all the flashy animations and skill effects like your casual player. It's a game after all and i want to have fun. And i's fun to watch, the animation/FX department did their jobs here and did them good. But the core functionality of Virtuoso needs work. 

 

So when people say Virtuoso has problems, and it's a bad espec, they're not lying. As an espec, and the functionality it brings and should bring, it's bad. I can see how people would like it, but as it stands, it's mostly fluff without substance. I'll probably continue playing it for the sheer spectacle in PvE, but i'll keep my Celestial Mirage, and for WvW i'll still use Chrono.

 

In the end, i don't hate it. There's potential here, but it's disingenuous of people when they say Virtuoso is fine. It's not fine, saying so only kills any hope of making Virtuoso a truly great espec. I get that you're having fun with it, but it's not fine. It needs proper work to make it good, and i think mesmer players deserve more than we got. 

 

EDIT: Some tidbits i forgot to add:

 

Rain of Swords for some reason when you cast it on the Oil in WvW, spams "obstructed". This shouldn't be the case. Oil already has reflect (if mastered) as defense, no need to obstruct an aoe when all other aoe's work.

 

Rain of Swords - lower cast time in WvW, too long cast time

 

Virtuoso has no condi clense, and no really good condi clense synergies in traits. If you're going to make it like that on purpose, then again, needs to do a lot more DPS to survive. 

 

Blades don't stock when on mounts... This is a problem in WvW as some zerg travel on mounts and you're at a disadvantage if you need to unmount to wait for blades to stock, or arrive at the destination not fully prepared as you could be, or worse, have to waste Blade Renewal at the start of the battle just to stock up. 

 

Psychic Riposte is too awkward to pull off and too punishing to actively seek out that playstyle just so you can do an unblockable attack. Needs another better way to grant unblockable.

 

Infinite Forge - Ok Major adept level trait, but trash Major Grandmaster trait.

 

Will edit more if i remember anything else.

Awesome review

[Ombras.2853]

5 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Who said it wasn't? And what point would that be?

Literally the post you quoted.

”I wouldn't consider Virtuoso let alone Mesmer in WvW...”

It was obviously not referred to your argument 😉

[Veprovina.4876]

4 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Literally the post you quoted.

”I wouldn't consider Virtuoso let alone Mesmer in WvW...”

It was obviously not referred to your argument 😉

Oh that! I didn't think that person was implying Chrono was bad, only not their playstyle. 😛

They did say: "it doesn't do it for me". I thought that meant, not my style, not that Chrono is bad.

 

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Awesome review

Thank you!

Edited March 11, 2022 by Veprovina.4876