WvW Constructive Discussion - Share Thoughts/Improvements

[Floz.8904]

Anet,

Obviously by now you've seen how much the WvW community values this game mode and the game itself. The gamemode is a gem and nothing else comes close with perhaps OG WoW open world being the only thing that even compares. Major publications have tried (New World) and failed to produce something as polished.

 

As an idea and a form of PvP, WvW is honestly a unique experience and unrivalled in any MMO. The question I have is why don't you market it more? Show what WvW can be - from roaming/supply running to GvG zerg fights - it is one of only 2 ways that guilds actually war in Guild Wars 2. Understandably, resource allocation is a cost/benefit discussion - but surely (judging by the EoD credits scene) the marketing team is big enough to have 1 or 2 dedicated resources creating marketable content for WvW.

 

Can you provide updated communication regarding the state of WvW and the value (or lack thereof) it represents to Anet. I'd like to see open communication on where Anet stands. E.g. is the WvW player base 5% of the GW2 playerbase? Is the effort required to market a game mode that only 5% of players participate in too much? Is the cost of a marketing campaign for WvW and a server restructure too much? In a perfect world we use siege turtle skin money to fund WvW. The Luxons would love that.

 

Some sort of information on the state of the mode from an Anet perspective would be appreciated - rather than promises of re-structuring that have loomed for years. Please manage the expectations of loyal and dedicated guildies. All the game mode needs is more players - either through condensed servers (i know alliances try to fix this - but it's seeming more like vapourware these days) or through more marketing.

 

Seriously, market this stuff - it is MMO gold and people will come from WoW and FF.

 

Regards,

Floz

[Xenesis.6389]

I'll guess you're new around here... the marketing for gw2 has always been bad in general, and they also tend to not talk to their customers on a regular basis about the game, unless they need to sell you something. Around HoT time they mentioned that around 35% of the player base plays both pve and wvw, who knows these days, we've probably lost at least half the players since they're operating at half the servers in matches since then. We were told we're a "cornerstone" of the game last year, yet here we are 3 weeks past the expansion, 2 months since the alliance beta, and not a peep from them, same ole, same ole.

They had a wonderful unique game mode to capitalize on, something not a lot of other games could offer, ESO does but they have major lag problems to this day, but they blew it, it's too late. Alliances will probably bring some curious people back, but for how long beyond that? Just a real shame it's was wasted.

[Floz.8904]

So their most recent post re success of EoD actually gives me hope. Will be good to see communication round WvW continue to be given value.

[Danger Ferret.6342]

I hate WvW. It's tedious and pointless. The ONLY reason I play is to get the reward tracks, and I firmly believe ANET stuck the gift of battle in WvW because otherwise no one would play. As long as you force PvE players into WvW, WvW is going to suck because most of us don't want to be there in the first place. It's like ANET goes out of its way to breed animosity among the players, and customer service refuses to take feedback, so we're forced to deal with more hostility in these forums to get the point across. STOP MAKING US DO THIS TEDIOUS BS TO AVOID A $150 Pay per Play on legendary weapons.

[Strider Pj.2193]

27 minutes ago, Danger Ferret.6342 said:

I hate WvW. It's tedious and pointless. The ONLY reason I play is to get the reward tracks, and I firmly believe ANET stuck the gift of battle in WvW because otherwise no one would play. As long as you force PvE players into WvW, WvW is going to suck because most of us don't want to be there in the first place. It's like ANET goes out of its way to breed animosity among the players, and customer service refuses to take feedback, so we're forced to deal with more hostility in these forums to get the point across. STOP MAKING US DO THIS TEDIOUS BS TO AVOID A $150 Pay per Play on legendary weapons.

Hello dear tortured soul.  My tears contain real salt.  
 

There are plenty of people who enjoy WvW tremendously.  We enjoy helping people get their Warclaw and their GoB.

 

And yes, because it’s a game, we enjoy downing and defeating people who whine incessantly about how horrible our cornerstone game mode is.  
 

So, buckle up and enjoy the ride to get your unnecessary shiny

Or grind gold and buy a gen 1 or 3 legendary.  
 

Have a great day!

[Hari.7259]

For Floyd Grubb, Senior Game Designer ........ I used to enjoy playing WvW .... As a solo player or with 1 or 2 others .... Now it is practically impossible to play as a solo player ... You are concentrating on guilds and groups .... Not everyone wants to play in a guild nor has the time to play in a guild ... I used to be able to enjoy myself, make levels and have fun .. not anymore ... guilds have so many boons to up their players, a solo player has no chance of surviving ... And this latest thing with guilds joining together ???  ... You can kiss all solo players goodbye and those that enjoy playing solo.

[Diku.2546]

2 hours ago, Hari.7259 said:

For Floyd Grubb, Senior Game Designer ........ I used to enjoy playing WvW .... As a solo player or with 1 or 2 others .... Now it is practically impossible to play as a solo player ... You are concentrating on guilds and groups .... Not everyone wants to play in a guild nor has the time to play in a guild ... I used to be able to enjoy myself, make levels and have fun .. not anymore ... guilds have so many boons to up their players, a solo player has no chance of surviving ... And this latest thing with guilds joining together ???  ... You can kiss all solo players goodbye and those that enjoy playing solo.

Agree - No fun for solo players ... and let me remind folks .... in another told you so moments.

2021.08.18 - Burn to the Ground by Guild Officers
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99804-wvw-alliances-confirmed-information/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-1436998- 

2018.07.09 - Competitive Population Balancing is an oxymoron
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/33053-world-restructuring-update-1/page/9/?tab=comments#comment-549547

2018.12.03 - Match-Up Mechanics or Team Creation?
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/44034-world-restructuring-update-2/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-707049

Yours truly,
Diku

Credibility requires critical insight & time.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Diku.2546

[Mabi black.1824]

20 hours ago, Danger Ferret.6342 said:

I hate WvW. It's tedious and pointless. The ONLY reason I play is to get the reward tracks, and I firmly believe ANET stuck the gift of battle in WvW because otherwise no one would play. As long as you force PvE players into WvW, WvW is going to suck because most of us don't want to be there in the first place. It's like ANET goes out of its way to breed animosity among the players, and customer service refuses to take feedback, so we're forced to deal with more hostility in these forums to get the point across. STOP MAKING US DO THIS TEDIOUS BS TO AVOID A $150 Pay per Play on legendary weapons

hi danger,

surely this game mode is not for everyone , if you do not like it simply play anything that makes you happy in gw2. consider that for us wvw is something unique and too beautiful, the players here look for just that, they want to compare themselves with other players or with other groups of players.

if somehow this game mode , unleashes too much hatred within you towards others, in fact it is better that you avoid it, I am sure that that legendary you do not need to have fun in gw2.

I wish you a lot of fun in any way you prefer.

[Mabi black.1824]

this is perhaps the best place to give feedback as a player on alliances. so I begin by welcoming our new friend floyd, to whom I congratulate for his expertise and wish him much luck for his future.

then I would like to make a premise, dear floyd any comparison that we can have here on the forum with you, will simply be the comparison between us community and you, it will be your personal opinion or will be of your personal indications / suggestions as a technician, in no way will they be official positions of the company. in this way you are relieved of any kind of responsibility here, you are free to give any personal suggestion you want, and for this we will never have any claim.

 

that said, I report my concern with the work of alliances that you are doing (concern shared by many other players from what I could read in other posts). in a nutshell it is the problem of no longer having your server / team , which for me is that container that arenanet provides and fills with players, guilds and groups of guilds. so the question is whether somehow it is possible to have alliances and make them still work with a team concept.

even just for a 12-month season just by hypothesis, and then we remix everything. is it a problem that you have also considered? could we lose something precious and unique in this mode if we no longer have that container that arenanet provides? Have you already thought about an alternative solution to the concept of long-term competition?

 

hello and see you soon.

[Dawdler.8521]

53 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

in a nutshell it is the problem of no longer having your server / team , which for me is that container that arenanet provides and fills with players, guilds and groups of guilds.

In another nutshell there are still worlds filled with players, guilds and groups of guilds. Because that's literally what the restructure and alliances is. Well, except it's called teams not worlds. But it's the same thing.

[subversiontwo.7501]

11 hours ago, Hari.7259 said:

For Floyd Grubb, Senior Game Designer ........ I used to enjoy playing WvW .... As a solo player or with 1 or 2 others .... Now it is practically impossible to play as a solo player ... You are concentrating on guilds and groups .... Not everyone wants to play in a guild nor has the time to play in a guild ... I used to be able to enjoy myself, make levels and have fun .. not anymore ... guilds have so many boons to up their players, a solo player has no chance of surviving ... And this latest thing with guilds joining together ???  ... You can kiss all solo players goodbye and those that enjoy playing solo.

Here's the problem Hari, posts like this are just full of logical fallacies and intellectual dishonesty. They don't help anyone. They don't help you, they don't help the devs and they don't help any other players. It's like trying to stick a square peg in a round hole, be frustrated about it but also double down and complain that square pegs should fit in round holes when that logic is obviously wrong.

They are only concentrating on guilds and groups in as far as that they are looking for ways to not have guilds split between servers and because guilds tend to be what birth players that start groups. If you are angry at that you are angry at guilds and groups even existing in a massive multiplayer game. Then, your problem is with logic. You also state that not all people have the time to play in a guild, yet playing in a guild takes no more time than playing by yourself. All guilds are different. You can make your own guild and dictate your own time same as how you can make your own squad and dictate its demands and choices. Assuming anything different is also a problem with logic.

There has never been a state in the game where 1-2 spontaneous players could take on guild-groups easier than today and boons have neither changed to the degree you imply, nore do they affect 1-2 players ability to survive against guild-groups very much (as that has always been determined by reach, stealth and mobility; Solo builds are still far more likely to use things like speed runes or play the fastest class-builds than group builds are). The only change I experience when I play alone against multiple opponents at the moment is that it feels like there is more crowd-control around now than in the past. However, boons is not CC, in some cases they are the counter to CC.

Furthermore, we don't have more sources of boons or other effects today compared to the past because guilds want them. There are more sources of boons because that has trickled in from instanced PvE where the norm is to keep all boons up. There are no guilds in WvW that wants to have that rather than how boons worked in vanilla (eg., vanilla stability). What they want is balance at their scale. That's why bad ideas, from solos who don't understand groups, get shot down by players who have group experience. They don't want boons, they want (control-) balance.

The problem you run into with not understanding how these things work, how things cancel themselves out or not understanding that they work opposite or indirectly like that, is that you will create more of the problems that you actually have a problem with. If you change the control balance so larger groups can no longer match up against each other, you will make some of them quit but you will also make those remaining more likely to see you as their content. If guilds can't fight guilds, guilds will fight solos. Then you will have more real problems. That's just one more reason why concentrating on some important issues with groups is good for everyone, you too.

Ed. The same goes for different players who clamour to siege or target caps. Those things never did help those players deal with larger groups of better-organised players. So they were never changed to affect those things. Assuming they ever did is just fallacy or dishonesty.

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

In another nutshell there are still worlds filled with players, guilds and groups of guilds. Because that's literally what the restructure and alliances is. Well, except it's called teams not worlds. But it's the same thing.

yes but I read somewhere that these teams are deleted and rebuilt every 8 weeks, it is a really limited time to build any type of group / community that can be defined as ''team'' my request is to have a longer season, so as to put in competition these containers provided by arenanet. build a ranking to climb and therefore a motivation. 

we also take it for granted that we will have very similar teams with alliances. perfect. now let's try to give a purpose to these teams to get busy, to compare themselves with other teams, to build a community that in any way can be organized and to be better than the others etc etc.

if we do it all over again every 8 weeks we lose / reduce a lot a fundamental aspect , which is to involve players in a wider competition. you should not underestimate this aspect. if arenanet builds 36 containers (just for example), fills them with players and puts them in competition with each other, it will be a great competition, the alternative is to put guilds or guild groups in competition. 

[Mabi black.1824]

in my opinion much more reductive and above all much more unstable. the guild is managed by a player and subject to any kind of drama, restriction, cancellation, modification, etc etc. during a 12-month season. the container that arenanet provides is much more stable you are sure that it will be your home for the duration of the season / competition.

 

sorry I had not finished expressing my thoughts

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

yes but I read somewhere that these teams are deleted and rebuilt every 8 weeks, it is a really limited time to build any type of group / community that can be defined as ''team'' my request is to have a longer season, so as to put in competition these containers provided by arenanet. build a ranking to climb and therefore a motivation. 

Your alliance is your "container". Your guild is your "container". 

I could delete half your current "container" today and replace it with completely different players and you wouldnt notice any difference from normal WvW, because that is literally normal linked monolithic WvW worlds. 

Going further I could probably keep a couple hundred WvWers you know, replace the other 90% on your world and you would STILL have everyone in your little bubble of WvW you've pretty much always had.

So I'd like to ask a question: this "container", how many players is that?

Your 36 "containers"... why not 62 containers, for better matchmaking and thus competition? Or 108 containers? At what number does it go from a "bad" container to a "good" container?

Edited June 27, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Mabi black.1824]

16 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Your alliance is your "container". Your guild is your "container". 

I could delete half your current "container" today and replace it with completely different players and you wouldnt notice any difference from normal WvW, because that is literally normal linked monolithic WvW worlds. 

Going further I could probably keep a couple hundred WvWers you know, replace the other 90% on your world and you would STILL have everyone in your little bubble of WvW you've pretty much always had.

So I'd like to ask a question: this "container", how many players is that?

Your 36 "containers"... why not 62 containers, for better matchmaking and thus competition? Or 108 containers? At what number does it go from a "bad" container to a "good" container?

the teams we have today are not comparable to my guild, or the group of guilds I'm a part of. first of all because the team is provided by arenanet and not by the player. and secondly, the competition between servers is much more inclusive and wider and more official than the competition that two guilds can have.

36 is only my hypothesis for Europe. 4 tiers - three-way, each team is composed of 3 servers (therefore smaller than the servers we have now) assuming that with alliances we could have actually similar servers, I would like to keep the reconnections every 2 months, also to constantly balance the teams in reference to how many points they are able to generate so as to keep the competition always at a good level.

[Chaba.5410]

@Mabi black.1824

Above you recommended maybe having teams that are kept around longer than 8 weeks.  What are your thoughts on the impact that a longer waiting period would have on guild or alliance members who want to join their friends on a team that ended up being Full?  Have you considered that?  How would you solve that issue?

Edited June 28, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

@Mabi black.1824

Above you recommended maybe having teams that are kept around longer than 8 weeks.  What are your thoughts on the impact that a longer waiting period would have on guild or alliance members who want to join their friends on a team that ended up being Full?  Have you considered that?  How would you solve that issue?

yes I thought about it, basically when arenanet kicks off the season you will be randomly inserted into one of these hypothetical 36 servers. that will be your safe home throughout the 12-month season. to evade any feeling of being blocked for 12 months, I proposed games with 3 matched servers per side. and every 8 weeks arenanet remakes these combinations (so it has the opportunity to manipulate and cure and improve the balance also)

so every 8 weeks your server will be paired with two other servers , most likely also 2 different servers from the ones you had in the previous pairing. it still has a lot of chances to find new players or old friends that arenanet distributed homely when it started the season.

then at the end comes the week of New Year's Eve, and the 3 best servers will be able to clash with the best 3 eu vs NA vs ASIA servers. in the meantime everyone else will have a week to replenish / reorganize alliances because 01 January arenanet cancels everything and rebuilds 36 teams randomly , filling them again with alliances, guilds , single players.

I'm trying to get a great event, great expectation, and a strong motivation for all 36 teams. something that can make this mode even more special. something that all other mmo can only dream of.

also you would have a completely new wvw every New Year's Eve, you will be guided by chance, I find it quite exciting and definitely it is a way to break the monotony (compared to what you have had in the last 10 years), it could really be a long-term vision.

[Mabi black.1824]

I am aware that I am asking for additional work to anet, I understand little programming but what I wanted is essentially based on programs or mechanics that we already have.

the server configuration already exists.

the matching logic already exists.

reconnection every 8 weeks already exists.

it could be an extra job but perhaps not very demanding. the real obstacle is to put on the same platform the three EU-NA-ASIA champions.

in fact this is something we don't have and it could be the real complicated job.

[Chaba.5410]

7 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

yes I thought about it, basically when arenanet kicks off the season you will be randomly inserted into one of these hypothetical 36 servers. that will be your safe home throughout the 12-month season. to evade any feeling of being blocked for 12 months, I proposed games with 3 matched servers per side. and every 8 weeks arenanet remakes these combinations (so it has the opportunity to manipulate and cure and improve the balance also)

so every 8 weeks your server will be paired with two other servers , most likely also 2 different servers from the ones you had in the previous pairing. it still has a lot of chances to find new players or old friends that arenanet distributed homely when it started the season.

then at the end comes the week of New Year's Eve, and the 3 best servers will be able to clash with the best 3 eu vs NA vs ASIA servers. in the meantime everyone else will have a week to replenish / reorganize alliances because 01 January arenanet cancels everything and rebuilds 36 teams randomly , filling them again with alliances, guilds , single players.

I'm trying to get a great event, great expectation, and a strong motivation for all 36 teams. something that can make this mode even more special. something that all other mmo can only dream of.

also you would have a completely new wvw every New Year's Eve, you will be guided by chance, I find it quite exciting and definitely it is a way to break the monotony (compared to what you have had in the last 10 years), it could really be a long-term vision.

I feel like your response didn't address my question.

Let's say you come back to GW2 from a long break.  Your guild is on Moogooloo and it's Full.  It's only 2 months into the 12 month season.  You have to wait 10 months to play with your guild again?

[Chaba.5410]

11 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

one of these hypothetical 36 servers

We don't need 36 teams.  We just need the number of teams to be divisible by 3.  The system can grow and shrink the number of tiers dynamically.

[Mabi black.1824]

2 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I feel like your response didn't address my question.

Let's say you come back to GW2 from a long break.  Your guild is on Moogooloo and it's Full.  It's only 2 months into the 12 month season.  You have to wait 10 months to play with your guild again?

I believe and imagine that when alliances go live arenanet will build new servers, randomly, and in a balanced way. I expect all servers to be the same or very similar, so all full. now some svuluppatore , I remember reading it somewhere, suggested that these full teams will have a small margin of 3 or 5 % just to give way to that he has not connected for a long time and has not selected / activated a wvw guild or an alliance, to be able to reach their guild mates.

[Chaba.5410]

12 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I believe and imagine that when alliances go live arenanet will build new servers, randomly, and in a balanced way. I expect all servers to be the same or very similar, so all full. now some svuluppatore , I remember reading it somewhere, suggested that these full teams will have a small margin of 3 or 5 % just to give way to that he has not connected for a long time and has not selected / activated a wvw guild or an alliance, to be able to reach their guild mates.

I remember reading something like that too.  When we are designing something though, shouldn't we ensure we have pathways for handling all the different user cases we know exist that can be pain-points for them?  At the beginning of a season when teams are first made there will be a small margin.  Over time though the populations will vary (for various reasons) and teams may become Full beyond that margin and be truly closed.  Then guild player comes back to the game and can't join his guild.  What should he do?

 

Edit: This scenario happens now.  Player usually ends up transferring to a link every 2 months while waiting for the server his guild is on to open up.  If that server doesn't have a link, he's kind of out of luck.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Mabi black.1824]

5 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

We don't need 36 teams.  We just need the number of teams to be divisible by 3.  The system can grow and shrink the number of tiers dynamically.

this is true, but my initiative is to have 4 weekly matches. the difference is that the 3 teams are each composed of 3 servers. 36 teams in europe 36 teams in america 36 teams in asia (or even more if they are many I have no idea of Asian players however always divisible by 3) the server that was most effective during the week ( capture - defend - kill etc etc ) gets points. these points will put it a certain position in the board of the seasonal ranking.

po arenanet redo the matches for the next 8 weeks, it does it to help the balance, this time the balance is not for the activity or the number of players (alliances has already built teams very similar to each other in this sense) but as far as a serve is effective to generate points. this helps to always maintain a good competition and at the same time gives you the opportunity to play with servers and therefore always different players every 8 weeks.

and last but not least you still have your team, your safe home, that container of anet that no drama or misunderstanding of any player can ever compromise, for the duration of the season.

[Mabi black.1824]

24 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I remember reading something like that too.  When we are designing something though, shouldn't we ensure we have pathways for handling all the different user cases we know exist that can be pain-points for them?  At the beginning of a season when teams are first made there will be a small margin.  Over time though the populations will vary (for various reasons) and teams may become Full beyond that margin and be truly closed.  Then guild player comes back to the game and can't join his guild.  What should he do?

 

Edit: This scenario happens now.  Player usually ends up transferring to a link every 2 months while waiting for the server his guild is on to open up.  If that server doesn't have a link, he's kind of out of luck.

I understand well your thought and your concern but we must necessarily find a compromise in this sense. it's fair to give a small margin to each server for friends who haven't connected in a long time or for friends who forgot to select the wvw guild when it was time. but there must remain a small margin, we cannot help all the forgetful with the result of compromising the balance between the teams.

[Dawdler.8521]

5 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

yes I thought about it, basically when arenanet kicks off the season you will be randomly inserted into one of these hypothetical 36 servers. that will be your safe home throughout the 12-month season. to evade any feeling of being blocked for 12 months, I proposed games with 3 matched servers per side. and every 8 weeks arenanet remakes these combinations (so it has the opportunity to manipulate and cure and improve the balance also)

so every 8 weeks your server will be paired with two other servers , most likely also 2 different servers from the ones you had in the previous pairing. it still has a lot of chances to find new players or old friends that arenanet distributed homely when it started the season.

then at the end comes the week of New Year's Eve, and the 3 best servers will be able to clash with the best 3 eu vs NA vs ASIA servers. in the meantime everyone else will have a week to replenish / reorganize alliances because 01 January arenanet cancels everything and rebuilds 36 teams randomly , filling them again with alliances, guilds , single players.

I'm trying to get a great event, great expectation, and a strong motivation for all 36 teams. something that can make this mode even more special. something that all other mmo can only dream of.

also you would have a completely new wvw every New Year's Eve, you will be guided by chance, I find it quite exciting and definitely it is a way to break the monotony (compared to what you have had in the last 10 years), it could really be a long-term vision.

Why do you think people would be happy to break up their "safe home" after 12 months? They've been together for 12 months after all. How is prolonging the inevitable any better from breaking it up after 2 months?

Also what you are essentially saying is that for example the situation with Gandara today isnt bad enough, 12 months of being stuck like that is better.

Do you disagree with that? Well there is a reason every 2 months is better to redistribute the worlds...

Also if we assume all worlds are 3 smaller combined worlds you are getting awfully close to... *drumroll*... the world restructure system with player made "safe homes" (ie alliances) that Anet has designed.

So whats the point? At least alliances doesnt have a 12 months countdown to the death of your "safe home" - it last as long as you are in it. Sounds far more like a home to me.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Dawdler.8521