Guardian Symbol mechanics outdated, too static and slow for GW2 in 2022

[Ezrael.6859]

Back when the game originally launched and combat was a lot slower paced, ranged options were far more limited, evades and invulnerability far rarer and mobility in general far less available than it is now; the Guardian was originally in a decent place, in PvE also as mobs are dumb and stand still, in sPvP the symbols almost cover a capture point, in WvW they could see decent use against zergs, but poor use in roaming / small group skirmishes.

Back in 2012-Oct 2015 this was generally ok, until the first expansion and the style of the game and combat started to shift towards range, mobility & evades.

 

Symbols should receive two updates to make them more competitive within the current faster-paced, mobile combat GW2 has, across sPvP, WvW and PvE. The game is less static now, enemies don't stand around in small 180 radius circles for 5 seconds. Guardians also don't want to stand around inside their symbols for 5 seconds to receive the basic boons they provide while enemies shred you from range.

The damage Guardian has long suffered from this backloaded damage mechanic with Symbols on all weapons, they perform well in most of PvE or against target golems so the ArcDPS crew thinks they are ok; but they are extremely poor in sPvP and WvW skirmishing / roaming while other professions get more of their damage available right away in the initial attack. 

 

Damage - All symbols should change to a 2 second duration (down from 4) so that damage is delivered across 3 hits rather than 5, taking 3 seconds total rather than 5. The symbols now deliver 33% of their total damage per hit rather than 20%. Cooldown timers stay the same so overall DPS stays the same, it simply improves the ability to land more of the damage in a shorter space of time in modern and more realistic GW2 gameplay.

Symbol of Protection would change to a 1s duration (down from 3s) so that all the damage is split 50/50 between the initial hit and the 1s symbol.

 

Boons - All symbols should apply their full boon duration / potency when the symbol first touches an ally, but no longer re-apply the boon to any ally that remains inside.

Blades - 7.5s Fury  /  Faith - 5s Regeneration  /  Protection - 3s Protection  /  Punishment - 5x 5s Might  /  Swiftness - 16s Swiftness  /  Resolution - 5s Resolution  /  Energy - 15s Vigor  /  Vengeance - 7.5s Fury. Symbol of Swiftness is especially necessary, the idea of receiving 4s of Swiftness per tick, so if you want the full duration you need to stand still inside the symbol for 5s waiting for all the Swiftness to stack up is hilarious.

 

Writ of Persistence would be updated to increase symbol durations by 1s only, a similar damage increase to now (20% damage per hit for 5 or 7 hits  vs 33% damage per hit for 3 or 4 hits) - Actually a slight overall damage decrease so this trait might need a little +% strike damage modifier added to compensate.

[Antina.5973]

On topic of outdated and too static abilities - sword 3 needs a rework. It feels awful to be rooted in place, especially in new content and new Spec, Willbender, which is supposed to be mobile. Yet the poster boy weapon (sword) contradicts the spec.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Antina.5973

[ZICA.7341]

Nice ideas. For small fights, duels, roaming, etc. Daze could be a nice solution too. For example:

 

 Zealous Blade (Zeal) Your power is increased. Gain additional power while wielding a greatsword. Your greatsword skills have reduced recharge. Symbol of Resolution apply 1s daze in the first strike.

 

Right-Hand Strength (Radiance) Your precision is increased. Gain increased power while wielding a one-handed weapon in your main hand. Main-hand sword skills gain reduced recharge. Symbol of Blades apply 1s daze in the first strike.

Edited March 26, 2022 by ZICA.7341

[aelska.4609]

I do not get why they haven't made them follow the guard yet. 

Also agree, pulses are wayyy too spread to make it actually useful.
Besides, I'd love to see zeal get converted in a "symbol-enhancing" traitline.

[Infusion.7149]

That's an amazing amount of powercreep you're proposing. Symbols have the same limitation as necromancer and chronomancer wells so that the burst isn't through the roof. If you implement a symbol change that doubles the burst of stacking symbols then traps and greatsword whirling wrath would need to be lengthened in number of hits or cast time to balance this. Otherwise the optimal solution for any bursty fight is going to be stacking DH even more so than now.

[Gwaihir.1745]

5 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That's an amazing amount of powercreep you're proposing. Symbols have the same limitation as necromancer and chronomancer wells so that the burst isn't through the roof. If you implement a symbol change that doubles the burst of stacking symbols then traps and greatsword whirling wrath would need to be lengthened in number of hits or cast time to balance this. Otherwise the optimal solution for any bursty fight is going to be stacking DH even more so than now.

 

Do you work for anet by any chance? Because what you just wrote was nerf core because of especs.

[Infusion.7149]

13 minutes ago, Gwaihir.1745 said:

 

Do you work for anet by any chance? Because what you just wrote was nerf core because of especs.

Greatsword 2 (whirling wrath) is not a elite spec feature and neither is Zealot's Defense (sword 3) nor Sword of Justice. If this wasn't true then willbender power DPS and power core guard would not be a thing.

In addition, doing such a change is a nerf to any grieving condi builds not on firebrands.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[KeoLegend.5132]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That's an amazing amount of powercreep you're proposing. Symbols have the same limitation as necromancer and chronomancer wells so that the burst isn't through the roof. If you implement a symbol change that doubles the burst of stacking symbols then traps and greatsword whirling wrath would need to be lengthened in number of hits or cast time to balance this. Otherwise the optimal solution for any bursty fight is going to be stacking DH even more so than now.

Where is DH now?

Mediocre DPS in PvE

kitten in PvP

Bad Solo

Gimmick meme build in wvW.

 

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

Where is DH now?

Mediocre DPS in PvE

kitten in PvP

Bad Solo

Gimmick meme build in wvW.

 

Might want to educate yourself.
"Mediocre DPS" but one of the highest power bursts which is why it is used on Conjured Amalgamate oftentimes. On Adina since you can upkeep Virtues' aegis 20% bonus from unscathed contender the 40K benchmark is relevant there. It also happens to be one of the few sources of party fury in a non-support power build.

"Kitten in PVP" - core guard is meta and has been for a while, in low tier PVP people are still running stealth trap DH and reportedly the devs say even if it isn't a popular build in high tier PVP it is common and winrate is among highest for low tier

Bad solo? - what does this even mean. Firebrand is a guardian profession too and in core tyria or any area where it is not a condi-favored fight you can play DH just fine for sure. In fact hammer symbol guard is one of the highest autoattacks and XVII speedclear guild autoattacked Dhuum to death.

"Gimmick meme build" - power DH is part of WVW squads' range DPS. All the skills aside from procession of blades whether it is sword of justice or SYMBOLS (the topic of this thread) are core guard skills.
https://gw2mists.com/builds/guardian/power-dragonhunter
https://gw2mists.com/builds/guardian/power-guardian


Also if the topic creator gets what they wish for it's a net nerf to any guardian build relying on symbols to trigger burning , namely any non-firebrand.
 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Ezrael.6859]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Also if the topic creator gets what they wish for it's a net nerf to any guardian build relying on symbols to trigger burning , namely any non-firebrand.
 

Relying on symbols to trigger burning is hilarious, you won't miss 2 symbol hits per weapon rotation compared to the high amount of hits you can do with other weapon skills to proc Justice.

 

You sound like your only perspective is PvEasy Firebrands attacking static mobs, what a joke.

[aelska.4609]

I'd also extend this to consecrations: they are all outdated, they'd gain in popularity if they could follow the guard.

[otto.5684]

Well… Anet made WB, a supposedly mobile elite, virtues be essentially a symbol. So… ya, if you are expecting anything to change or improve, that will not happen. The current design/balance dev team… do not even understand the basics of how guardian operate. Everything related to guardian, they touched, since early 2020, got kittened. Best thing is that they do nothing at all to core, DH and FB. Unfortunately, I think they seriously going to kitten things over the next few month.

[otto.5684]

13 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Might want to educate yourself.
"Mediocre DPS" but one of the highest power bursts which is why it is used on Conjured Amalgamate oftentimes. On Adina since you can upkeep Virtues' aegis 20% bonus from unscathed contender the 40K benchmark is relevant there. It also happens to be one of the few sources of party fury in a non-support power build.

"Kitten in PVP" - core guard is meta and has been for a while, in low tier PVP people are still running stealth trap DH and reportedly the devs say even if it isn't a popular build in high tier PVP it is common and winrate is among highest for low tier

Bad solo? - what does this even mean. Firebrand is a guardian profession too and in core tyria or any area where it is not a condi-favored fight you can play DH just fine for sure. In fact hammer symbol guard is one of the highest autoattacks and XVII speedclear guild autoattacked Dhuum to death.

"Gimmick meme build" - power DH is part of WVW squads' range DPS. All the skills aside from procession of blades whether it is sword of justice or SYMBOLS (the topic of this thread) are core guard skills.
https://gw2mists.com/builds/guardian/power-dragonhunter
https://gw2mists.com/builds/guardian/power-guardian


Also if the topic creator gets what they wish for it's a net nerf to any guardian build relying on symbols to trigger burning , namely any non-firebrand.
 

Ehh. Some right and some wrong here. DH and FB are pretty good in PvE. I know some people are looking at some of the new EoD elites achieving 40k+ dps. These will be smited down to mid upper 30’s by next patch or 2. As for virtues power variants, I consider Unscathed Contender a none existent trait. There very few and very unique situations that it works, and that is about it. You cannot take in consideration in any guardian overall damage consideration.

 

 PvP, do you want to play support? Ya, core guardian is really good. Any other guardian build varies from mediocre to trash. Out of support guardian is the worst class in spvp (Maybe mesmer). 
 

As for symbols, there could be improvements, they do not need rework, except for WB. They surely do. Actually, WB as a whole needs major rework. OP suggestion is way out there. If symbols deal tons of damage in very short period that would be a huge balance issue in pvp. And guardian worked fine with symbols for years as they are. Its damage in pvp that needs rework, not for symbols or guardian, but across the entire game. 

[Infusion.7149]

10 hours ago, Ezrael.6859 said:

Relying on symbols to trigger burning is hilarious, you won't miss 2 symbol hits per weapon rotation compared to the high amount of hits you can do with other weapon skills to proc Justice.

 

You sound like your only perspective is PvEasy Firebrands attacking static mobs, what a joke.

lol.
Most of my hours are in WVW and guess what DH is dominant there. Maybe you don't feel that way because you think WvW is about 1v1 roaming or something.

Those symbol hits trigger permeating wrath which still hasn't had a cooldown added so yeah the symbols hits actually do something besides acting as a trigger for Symbolic Avenger on pDPS or Writ of Persistence on a support.

It's quite petty to ask for a class that is dominant in every mode. It's also quite funny you disparage PvE when people are complaining Dragon's End is too hard and for many years people were asking for non raid legendary armor. Talk about not knowing the playerbase.

 

2 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Ehh. Some right and some wrong here. DH and FB are pretty good in PvE. I know some people are looking at some of the new EoD elites achieving 40k+ dps. These will be smited down to mid upper 30’s by next patch or 2. As for virtues power variants, I consider Unscathed Contender a none existent trait. There very few and very unique situations that it works, and that is about it. You cannot take in consideration in any guardian overall damage consideration.

 

 PvP, do you want to play support? Ya, core guardian is really good. Any other guardian build varies from mediocre to trash. Out of support guardian is the worst class in spvp (Maybe mesmer). 
 

As for symbols, there could be improvements, they do not need rework, except for WB. They surely do. Actually, WB as a whole needs major rework. OP suggestion is way out there. If symbols deal tons of damage in very short period that would be a huge balance issue in pvp. And guardian worked fine with symbols for years as they are. Its damage in pvp that needs rework, not for symbols or guardian, but across the entire game. 

So you agree with me.

P.S. most of fractal power DPS records are done with pre-stacked traps.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Dadnir.5038]

Wasn't symbol gameplay nerfed in competitive modes a few month ago (maybe a year) because it was deemed "OP"? Weren't the arguments the usual: "It does OP damage for a brain dead rotation! Nerf asap!"

[Arken.3725]

Small perspective from an old Guard player, symbols in pvp haven't been relevant since the Writ of Persistence nerfs years back.  They're a terrible form of dmg outside of a downed body.  Heavily outdated and incredibly backloaded.

[Falseprophet.1502]

17 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Might want to educate yourself.
"Mediocre DPS" but one of the highest power bursts which is why it is used on Conjured Amalgamate oftentimes. On Adina since you can upkeep Virtues' aegis 20% bonus from unscathed contender the 40K benchmark is relevant there. It also happens to be one of the few sources of party fury in a non-support power build.

Bad solo? - what does this even mean. Firebrand is a guardian profession too and in core tyria or any area where it is not a condi-favored fight you can play DH just fine for sure. In fact hammer symbol guard is one of the highest autoattacks and XVII speedclear guild autoattacked Dhuum to death.
 

 

 

This is cherrypicking at its finest.

 

Your comment regarding Unscathed Contender to attempt to make your point, epitomizes everything that is wrong with guardian. It's too reliant on traits that rely on other classes providing boons to make it better. You would only ever take Unscathed Contender if you had a Boon DD on Adina for the Detonate Plasma. This is often the case for 100% resolution uptime, too. Try playing a virtues DH while maintaining 100% Aegis and Resolution without a comp that caters to your build. I promise your DPS would be terrible.

 

Regarding Dhuum and hammer AA's comment about being one of the highest autoattacks, go look at that log. Mirages were 6-7k higher than any Hammer Guard on that kill. They brought the Guards for the Writ of Persistence heal and the protection. 

 

Your perception is your reality. 

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Falseprophet.1502 said:

 

 

This is cherrypicking at its finest.

 

Your comment regarding Unscathed Contender to attempt to make your point, epitomizes everything that is wrong with guardian. It's too reliant on traits that rely on other classes providing boons to make it better. You would only ever take Unscathed Contender if you had a Boon DD on Adina for the Detonate Plasma. This is often the case for 100% resolution uptime, too. Try playing a virtues DH while maintaining 100% Aegis and Resolution without a comp that caters to your build. I promise your DPS would be terrible.

 

Regarding Dhuum and hammer AA's comment about being one of the highest autoattacks, go look at that log. Mirages were 6-7k higher than any Hammer Guard on that kill. They brought the Guards for the Writ of Persistence heal and the protection. 

 

Your perception is your reality. 

The mirages had ambushes.

Every other pDPS needs external fury sources, so if you call that cherrypicking I don't know what to tell you. Especially when the topic creator is saying "PVEasy" so that's besides the point.
 

[otto.5684]

6 hours ago, Arken.3725 said:

Small perspective from an old Guard player, symbols in pvp haven't been relevant since the Writ of Persistence nerfs years back.  They're a terrible form of dmg outside of a downed body.  Heavily outdated and incredibly backloaded.

Man, back in the good old days I used to land GS5 then pull them into the symbol of punishment then GS2. It did not land often, but at least 2-3 times per game, and when it did, that rewarding feeling 😃

 

I still think they could work as is, if damage in PvP is amped up to 2019 levels. But in the current slog fest, no chance. 

[otto.5684]

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

lol.
Most of my hours are in WVW and guess what DH is dominant there. Maybe you don't feel that way because you think WvW is about 1v1 roaming or something.

Those symbol hits trigger permeating wrath which still hasn't had a cooldown added so yeah the symbols hits actually do something besides acting as a trigger for Symbolic Avenger on pDPS or Writ of Persistence on a support.

It's quite petty to ask for a class that is dominant in every mode. It's also quite funny you disparage PvE when people are complaining Dragon's End is too hard and for many years people were asking for non raid legendary armor. Talk about not knowing the playerbase.

 

So you agree with me.

P.S. most of fractal power DPS records are done with pre-stacked traps.

PvE? Absolutely. Spvp, no. WvW not my thing, but I assume DH and FB are at least decent.

[Infusion.7149]

51 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

PvE? Absolutely. Spvp, no. WvW not my thing, but I assume DH and FB are at least decent.

Are you denying the symbols provide value to AH on core support guard? Because I am pretty sure you aren't going deny core support guard is part of the meta. If you deny core support guard is meta then that's a whole different level of denial. That's not to mention the interaction with Permeating Wrath on any condi guardian.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Falseprophet.1502]

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The mirages had ambushes.

Every other pDPS needs external fury sources, so if you call that cherrypicking I don't know what to tell you. Especially when the topic creator is saying "PVEasy" so that's besides the point.
 

You're further proving my point of cherrypicking. You're bringing up something completely tangential to try to fit your weird narrative whilst clamoring to avoid being wrong. We're not talking about fury. We're talking about aegis uptime and how you believe hammer is a strong AA weapon while citing a video of experienced raiders who used it to provide protection, vulnerability, and healing. Not because it was a weapon with the "highest autoattacks." Go read their Reddit post. Quit being so righteous and wrong. It's a forum. 

 

But I'm done. Like I previously stated, your perception is your reality. 

[Gwaihir.1745]

Yeah I cant take anyone seriously who thinks the hammer AA is good in any game mode Pvp/wvw/pve.

[Infusion.7149]

Okay let's run with the suggestion then, since this isn't a willbender suggestion or a mantra of solace PVP/WVW suggestion but a core guardian mechanic.
How does making symbols 5/2 the burst , i.e. more than double , help the guardian not be even more dominant in PVE and WVW? Why should balance be dictated by PVP only, especially when people play meditation guard or burn guard if for some reason they don't play core guard?
Keep in mind firebrand has been dominant since its introduction in WVW and remains dominant ever since alac ren + firebrand in PVE.

Meanwhile you have classes that are outright rooted for 2 seconds or more such as on warrior greatsword (which is a common PVP/WVW weapon) or ranger with offhand axe (defacto immob soulbeast weapon), or catalyst with 5s pulsing jade spheres. Arenanet's priority should not be pandering to guardian mains, especially when said changes may actually be detrimental to builds already in use (including willbender) as opposed to some pie in the sky hypothetical.

P.S. the symbol on hammer is 2.5 power coefficient in PVE, it's a heavily backloaded autoattack which rivals other classes' #2 skill. I've also just tested this on the golem, it does have more auto-attack DPS than greatsword.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[otto.5684]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Are you denying the symbols provide value to AH on core support guard? Because I am pretty sure you aren't going deny core support guard is part of the meta. If you deny core support guard is meta then that's a whole different level of denial. That's not to mention the interaction with Permeating Wrath on any condi guardian.

Core guardian support is top tier in PvP. Though it is not much reliant on symbols. This thread is mainly about over reliance of most dps builds on symbols in PvP. And no, it is not as bad as many people make it seem, however, it does not work well either. and for the record, I do not think symbols need to change with exception for WB.

WB, most definitely needed to address symbols as game play design, cuz WB clearly was not designed for area damage or denial. WB mechanics should have focused on symbols adjustment, not virtues. It is so ironic that the part of core guardian that would have work fine for mobility is what got changed, for effectively ground targeting; a kittening symbol. It boggles my mind. WTF were the devs smoking when they designed that crap?!

Edited March 28, 2022 by otto.5684