Guys, don't be afraid to try Raids

[frareanselm.1925]

Does raids in Gw2 include stressing mechanics like "click this object when the boss is at 30% of HP" and if you fail your entire party wipes by you fault? If yes, i dont want raids.

[Astralporing.1957]

10 minutes ago, jcH.7109 said:

Because he claimed to have a non-meta build which can perform as well as meta

They did mention the builds they were using: shortbow soulbeast (i assume the shortbow condi soulbeast). It's an extremely popular build to this day, but snowcrows do not acknowledge its existence, because it is a build that knowingly sacrifices a bit of efficiency for ease of play. It is still good enough for practically any raid content we have so far.

It's most likely either this one, or some variant of it (there are a few  - some people for example still use an older double shortbow version)

[Sindust.7059]

6 minutes ago, jcH.7109 said:

 

As you can see, he claimed that there is a shortbow soulbeast build that can “hit the required numbers”, but it is not allowed, according to him. I’m just curious as to what build he’s talking about and wanted to see the numbers.

Check their example logs on discord. They have one linked with over 30k DPS as an example of a build that isn't allowed, even though it passes the 80% t2 mark.

[dusanyu.4057]

sorry not touching them a long as i am "required" by every group to install a third party plugin to join. 

 

[Gregg.3970]

Just a little positive story to aid, hopefully wannabe Raiders from a super casual perspective. 

First GW2 guild I ever joined was a super casual friendly guild focusing on Guild Missions, Socialising, Dungeons, Open world PvE,, fractals at leisurely pace just chilling out and laughing at each other on discord when someone screwed up - but all good humour - but not one of us ever Raided or was really keen on the idea until we all began talking about them but were all put off by joining Pugs or random training groups: Fear of the unknown, not knowing anyone in the PUG, not knowing the mechanics, being ridiculed and so on so more barriers than not... 

... so we all agreed to form our first Guild Raid Squad all guildees with ZERO raid experience even the Guild Leaders.  So how did us Raider Noobs get started ? 

1. Played the professions we enjoyed the most / were optimal at

2. Checked Snowcrows for build/gear template, optimal rotation, tips

3. Made sure we all had either Full Exotic / Ascended as a minimum 

4. Watched a few mins of the particular Raid Encounter on YouTube to get the jist of the mechanics, fast forward to each boss fight so we didn't spend hours watching encounters 

5. Set 2 convenient times each week when most of us were free for the time required

6. Set up a Discord Channel with weekly interest open to all guildees to sign up each week, and state which Raid we are doing

7. Tried to assign / balance roles across the squad, trying to facilitate 1. but ofc realising we'd struggle without the usual suspects: Alac, hfb, dudu, scourge etc. 

8. Since we had sorted 1-7 prior to the Raid starting, which was really easy tbf, we just poked everyone on Discord and we all jumped in the deep-end in our 1st Raid

9. Okay so the 1st nights Raiding took us 3 hours - we started pretty bad, but it was so chilled, no stress, we were just chilling back on Discord, throwing out ideas, learning from our mistakes, supporting each other, swapping out roles occasionally when we needed more support/dps.  Cos we were so chilled we learnt so quickly from our collective mistakes and improved significantly in several weeks slashing the times of our Raids by a third or as much as a half in some instances. 

10. All these years later the guild now Raids 2-3 times a week, no pressure, no stress whatsoever, newbies most welcome, with the emphasis on having fun, but also to rise and overcome the challenge of each Raid for the whole squad.  If we failed any Raid, we just chalked it up to continued practice and learning , so nothing lost, and just marked it for the next Raid until we completed it. Nothing ventured nothing gained 

 

TLDR: Raiding with your guild mates like we started out from Zero XP made my whole Raid Experience 100 times more enjoyable I'm sure than if I'd started out in a random PUG with strangers.  Sure if you're an experienced Raider and just want a Speed run then that's what those LFG 250li groups are specifically for and that's cool too. 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Gregg.3970

[Flave.3065]

3 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

I joined this server after I saw this thread yesterday and took a look around. They have a tier system for sorting players according to their skill and experience (t0-t3) which gives them access to increasingly advanced runs. And what I found most jarring is that despite the requirements for t2 and t3 (among other things) being 80% and 90% of the snowcrows benchmark respectively, they do not allow builds that would hit those numbers that deviate from the ones listed on snowcrows. For example the shortbow soulbeast build is explicitly prohibited even though it hits the required numbers.

 

Basically, if you want to advance there, you need to be a meta slave. And if you don't like the playstyle of the meta build for your spec and decide to make adjustments to make it work for you, you're punished for that by blocking your progress beyond t1.

 

I had a bit of a discussion with them about it, and the answer was something along the lines of "we want you to improve, and the only way it can happen is if you play the meta". The fact that people might just not like the playstyle of a certain build was dismissed as people just refusing to improve.

 

They weren't outright hostile, but this attitude of "meta or else, and we don't even care if your build performs well if it's not copy-pasted from the approved website" is quite toxic too. You're much better off looking for a proper guild in-game, with less bureaucracy, and where people look only at your performance and don't care how you get there. But then we come around full circle to the point where raiding does have a very high barrier of entry if you don't find the right kind of guild for where you are and what you want to do.

So a few points from someone who has accumulated a lot of hours of training people in raids as well as raiding on various skill levels. I personally started out in a 450+ people super casual guild with people that had almost no raid experience. A lot of these big guilds btw. do offer some raid intro or practice for new people and so did my guild. There I was able to play more or less whatever I wanted to as long as I was able to somewhat contribute to the raid. After some time this wasn't enough for me and I started to join trainings on RTI and Crossroads Inn. Both of these guilds have their pros and cons when it comes to what they require and what they offer. As a trainee (back then with little to no experience as mentioned) what annoyed me most were people that didn't bother to invest even the smallest amount of time to know their classes to a level where they can contribute. Contributing at this stage really just means you kinda know what your class can do and you have an idea of a rotation if you are a DPS player that does not leave you multiple thousands of DPS behind other new players. 

After I gathered some experience I started my journey to commander with the sole and only intend to introduce new people to raids in a "casual" atmosphere. I think I only ever asked one person to show me what build they play since the person really held the group back massively. (DPS class doing less DPS than a healer) What I encountered a few times however were people asking how they can improve and do more DPS only for me to realise they play something they've seen somewhere on some site that is totally geared towards open world or even something they came up themselves. The problem is I as a commander cannot possibly know all possible variations of builds that is out there. So if a trainee asks me what to improve with a random build I won't be able to help usually outside of some general tips of what is good and what isn't which usually ends up with a tendency towards the meta. That is where having guidelines that "enforce" meta builds become very helpful. As a commander I may have not played that specific build but I equipped myself with the skills to read logs and check whats going wrong using those. 

Now to the tiertesting part. I myself was a tiertester for quite some time at Crossroads. First of all we even had some builds that were not on Snowcrows on our benchmark sheet which we allowed for tiers. I strongly belive there needs to be a limit of builds that are allowed since it takes quite some time to review the performance of people on the golem and bosses. If you now have to cover all possible variations that people come up with you either need a few extremely dedicated and knowledgable people that do those reviews or you need an army of people. Both things unfortunately don't work. There are not enough of those extremely knowledgable people that are available enough to do this and there aren't enough people to cover it with an army while keeping quality at a decent level. If you do not have such a "Tier" or "Skill" system it becomes increasingly hard for you to ensure you have good enough players for harder bosses. And some bosses in raids just need people that play on a certain level. Most of the people do not get to this level on non-meta builds. And as a community guild you have to focus on the masses and not a select few individuals.

Another point is that a raid training guild is not just there to get you into raids but also to provide you with the opportunity to improve over time. If custom builds were accepted that would be extremely hard to accomplish and when we get to a certain point you will end up with the fact that meta builds just outperform non-meta builds. 

Lastly, I just wanted to remind everyone here that all those toxic raiding elitists that are in those raid training guilds are doing all of these things voluntarily in their free time to help people get into raids and improve. They spend hours and hours every week organising trainings, preparing materials (FAQs, introductions to classes etc.), commanding trainings, reviewing tier applications, answering questions and so on. I do not believe it is too much to ask from someone that wants to profit from those offerings to spend some time to prepare accordingly. Having a meta build with somewhat acceptable gear (that can be exotic without any infusions) is realy not that hard and even spending 30 minutes on a golem to have a first grip of the rotation is not much if you ask me. If you don't wanna do that try to get into one of those massive guilds out there that offer some raid introductions. They usually ask for even less.

(Disclaimer: I am no longer in any capacity doing anything at any training guild. I am now a grumpy retired raider that plays a bit of casual WvW here and there but apart from that quit the game)

Edited March 28, 2022 by Flave.3065
disclaimer

[Sobx.1758]

11 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Again. I'm not saying it's impossible but to recognize how steep the curve is when you come in with no knowledge or only a bit of knowledge about the holy trinity from a different game. 

I do recognize it and I was writing about it in the past, this is nothing I'm not aware of. It's not new to me that there's a significant jump between core->hot content and I was also already saying that in the past (high level core zones should have smoother way to tie in with the expansion difficulty levels). EoD already helps with that, if only by providing literal training grounds at the starting zone that the players are lead to early into the story.

11 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Like, most of what you say is true. But the thing I'm talking about is that you have been part of the hardcore community for so long that 90%+ of the stuff that needs to be learned, you don't even think about anymore.

Please, don't try to tell me what I think about and what I don't think about, since as I've mentioned above, I was already talking about in the past. And just like then, I still think it's not about changing the expansion/endgame content, as much as it is about smoothing out the difficulty curve in core game leading into expansion content. This is something I know and known for a long time. I did not somehow "forget about it". It's understandable for you to not know what I wrote in the more or less distant past, it's perfectly normal. But the fact remains that the idea of me you try to paint in your responses does not match the reality.

Duh, I've specifically checked and read through the trianing ground content fully (not a lot of reading, but still) solely to check whether or not it will be helpful in understanding and practicing those basic game mechanics for the new players. I've already had some -rather short- discussions shortly after EoD release, where the players complaining about lack of explanation of the mechanics in the past, still complained about EoD, claiming it's barely an equivalent of "raising awarness of existence of mechanics, without explaning what, how and why". It became clear that people complaining about that (not all, but the few I was talking with in those threads) didn't even bother to read through the short explanations provided ingame by the npcs. And in cases like this one, I don't agree that this is necessarily the game's issue. Obviously, the mostly valid complaint about core content ramping up better into expansions, as well as those EoD training grounds lacking from core/hot/pof remains the same. And as much as I think introducing something similar -or even exaclty the same- to those training grounds into the earlier content would be helpful, it's clear that players need to want to learn in order for them to learn. If someone doesn't want to, then it's not a game issue and there's not much the game can do about that outside of what EoD/raids/SM already tries doing.

11 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Portraying it as "just doesn't want to learn" frames them as very lazy and bad.

No worries, I have full understanding of players not being a collective of minds and never tried saying that nobody wants to learn or anyone who can't -possibly yet- is automatically somehow lazy and bad. Like I wrote in my previous post, I still remember me playing pre-raids and how I see it all was nothing else than the learning experience. Something, some people try to jump over in order to focus on the rewards themselves (or worse: instead of slowly improving, they jump on the forum and demand easier access to reward so they don't have a reason to improve).

11 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Like, ok. Just one example. People join one of these raid communities. They are linked to snow crows or metabattle and told to get one of those builds before registering for a training build. The average snowcrows build costs >500 gold and several weeks of grinding. No one took the time to explain that it's the best possible version of the build but to get started you can totally use unnamed exotics which run at like 5 gold. Infusions are unnecessary too. Especially considering how strong the focus on meta builds is and how that's "easy preparation" everyone "should have done before starting out".

There's FaQ in discord channel linked by OP. In the FaQ channel the first question asked and responded (in the automatically reposted by the bot post for the constant visibility) is this:

Quote

Do I need ascended gear? Nope! Exotics are enough to start with.

Not only that, but this is specifically the reason I, well, maybe kind of overeagerly jump into the threads like this to dismiss false information I see. Something you then can -and did- attempt to sarcastically misrepresent as "na-ah! You lie!". But it's not "na-ah! you lie!". It's "no, that's not true, please stop repeating lies that actively scare away people from trying content they might otherwise try". And again, as mentioned in the previous post/s, I am saying that based on my own experience. Experience I still know, remember and understanad even though I am now able to participate in that content.

In this thread alone you've tried saying those communities are made solely to introduce already very good players into raiding, but for the most part it is not true and those people are happy to help newer players with whatever they need to be helped with in order to improve. Similarly someone else wrote that they won't try raiding, since they're not interested in groups where everyone demands perfect rotation and 40k dps. Sorry, but almost nobody demands that, "even" for 250LI groups, let alone for the chill/training/open/whatever else groups. I am not saying that to be contrarian. I am saying that, because what is written in posts like the ones mentioned here is just wrong and misleading. The choice about participation and improving is still the one each and every individual player can and has to make for themselves.

 

 

e: It's hilarious how 2 seconds after posting this message, someone already slapped the confused emote. Just to depict the great state of these reaction emotes, where facts I dislike are automatically super confusing 😅

Edited March 28, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[TimeArc.1309]

1 hour ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Let's be clear that this does NOT bar him from the content. Only for training with TCI.

Not even that. The Tier System is used to ensure a smooth progression and goals to work to. ~90 % the encounters are trainable without ever doing time on the golem or producint logs for that matter.

 

It's saddening how a good intention (however bad it may have been phrased) got hijacked to rant about anything not concurrent with it's own views.

I personally know of at least five training guild/server/Initiatives and each has it's own style, which fits different personas. 

Most require Meta builds however and that is solely to a reason, because people have to have knowledge, if they want to help others improve. They are currently a lot of builds and quite a few new ones marked as "Meta", adding all the possibilies to it would make it impossible to keep track of and help others on them.

 

Trainers and Trainees a like do it in their free time. Trainers mostly as a hobby. Restrictions are in place to help both the Trainer and the Trainees to have a good learning expierence. 

As a Trainee you expressed the will to learn and improve. Forcing your own ways on nine other people, of which one at least does this almost job in their free time, is not a good habit. And it has nothing to do with gatekeeping. IT is in place to keep the fun alive for everyone, not just yourself.

[mindcircus.1506]

3 minutes ago, TimeArc.1309 said:

Not even that. The Tier System is used to ensure a smooth progression and goals to work to. ~90 % the encounters are trainable without ever doing time on the golem or producint logs for that matter.

To even be T1 in this community you need to run a Snowcrows build.
This is the second bullet point of the Welcome Document.

1. Be on EU
2. Run a Snowcrows build.

I don't want to take anything away from TCI or what they are doing I have a ton of respect for anyone who takes of their time to organize and co-ordinate for other people.
But the requirement to run a Snowcrows build is very clearly defined on the Welcome Document. Not running a Meta build does indeed prohibit participation in TCI activities. The document is very clear.
There is no "if, then, else".

This is not a criticism. It's their house, their rules. I get the function of it.
To say "not even that" is false. The official document makes it clear.

[TimeArc.1309]

1 minute ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

To even be T1 in this community you need to run a Snowcrows build.
This is the second bullet point of the Welcome Document.

1. Be on EU
2. Run a Snowcrows build.

I don't want to take anything away from TCI or what they are doing I have a ton of respect for anyone who takes of their time to organize and co-ordinate for other people.
But the requirement to run a Snowcrows build is very clearly defined on the Welcome Document. Not running a Meta build does indeed prohibit participation in TCI activities. The document is very clear.
There is no "if, then, else".

This is not a criticism. It's their house, their rules. I get the function of it.
To say "not even that" is false. The official document makes it clear.

and not in one training is that ever checked. People are trusted to follow, because only then they can also expect help and answer to question. Joining a Training on a Shortbow only Soulbeast is possible, just don't expect any help to Improve, aside from maybe general tips.

It's quite amusing, how people always assume, people will get kicked instantly out of everything, if they don't follow. As i said before, people do it in their free time and rules and restrictions are in place to make it a fun experience for everyone. 

[danickar.3495]

13 minutes ago, TimeArc.1309 said:

and not in one training is that ever checked. People are trusted to follow, because only then they can also expect help and answer to question. Joining a Training on a Shortbow only Soulbeast is possible, just don't expect any help to Improve, aside from maybe general tips.

It's quite amusing, how people always assume, people will get kicked instantly out of everything, if they don't follow. As i said before, people do it in their free time and rules and restrictions are in place to make it a fun experience for everyone. 

Rules and restrictions do not make fun for everyone. If the rule says "Must use meta build" then anyone who does not enjoy the meta build for their class isn't going to have fun.

The rule may be in place because the group feels it is needed to create the most likely successful outcome of the raid. Their group their rules no problem, but don't try and say it will "make it a fun experience for everyone".

 

Edit:

If the rule is not enforced then why have it as a rule at all? The rule by nature discourages some players who do not want/enjoy playing those builds. If the rule is truly optional then removing it would remove that barrier that makes players not want to even attempt to join because they do not wish to be meta.

Edited March 28, 2022 by danickar.3495

[mindcircus.1506]

10 minutes ago, TimeArc.1309 said:

and not in one training is that ever checked. People are trusted to follow, because only then they can also expect help and answer to question. Joining a Training on a Shortbow only Soulbeast is possible, just don't expect any help

This is not what the Welcome document says. The document is pretty clear.
Anyone who takes the rules at face value and chooses to abide by them or form impressions based on them is not wrong.

If indeed it is not the case, then the document is incorrect not the player,
 

Edited March 28, 2022 by mindcircus.1506

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, dusanyu.4057 said:

sorry not touching them a long as i am "required" by every group to install a third party plugin to join. 

 

Noone is required to use any plugin to Raid.

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

Basically, if you want to advance there, you need to be a meta slave. And if you don't like the playstyle of the meta build for your spec and decide to make adjustments to make it work for you, you're punished for that by blocking your progress beyond t1.

And if you want to get into raids, learning at that t1 level is somehow bad because... what exactly? When higher tiers are designated for people that want to go further in regards of efficiency, but you don't want to, then how is this a problem for anything when talking about getting into raids? What's the issue here?

[Sindust.7059]

1 hour ago, Flave.3065 said:

So a few points from someone who has accumulated a lot of hours of training people in raids as well as raiding on various skill levels. I personally started out in a 450+ people super casual guild with people that had almost no raid experience. A lot of these big guilds btw. do offer some raid intro or practice for new people and so did my guild. There I was able to play more or less whatever I wanted to as long as I was able to somewhat contribute to the raid. After some time this wasn't enough for me and I started to join trainings on RTI and Crossroads Inn. Both of these guilds have their pros and cons when it comes to what they require and what they offer. As a trainee (back then with little to no experience as mentioned) what annoyed me most were people that didn't bother to invest even the smallest amount of time to know their classes to a level where they can contribute. Contributing at this stage really just means you kinda know what your class can do and you have an idea of a rotation if you are a DPS player that does not leave you multiple thousands of DPS behind other new players. 

After I gathered some experience I started my journey to commander with the sole and only intend to introduce new people to raids in a "casual" atmosphere. I think I only ever asked one person to show me what build they play since the person really held the group back massively. (DPS class doing less DPS than a healer) What I encountered a few times however were people asking how they can improve and do more DPS only for me to realise they play something they've seen somewhere on some site that is totally geared towards open world or even something they came up themselves. The problem is I as a commander cannot possibly know all possible variations of builds that is out there. So if a trainee asks me what to improve with a random build I won't be able to help usually outside of some general tips of what is good and what isn't which usually ends up with a tendency towards the meta. That is where having guidelines that "enforce" meta builds become very helpful. As a commander I may have not played that specific build but I equipped myself with the skills to read logs and check whats going wrong using those. 

Now to the tiertesting part. I myself was a tiertester for quite some time at Crossroads. First of all we even had some builds that were not on Snowcrows on our benchmark sheet which we allowed for tiers. I strongly belive there needs to be a limit of builds that are allowed since it takes quite some time to review the performance of people on the golem and bosses. If you now have to cover all possible variations that people come up with you either need a few extremely dedicated and knowledgable people that do those reviews or you need an army of people. Both things unfortunately don't work. There are not enough of those extremely knowledgable people that are available enough to do this and there aren't enough people to cover it with an army while keeping quality at a decent level. If you do not have such a "Tier" or "Skill" system it becomes increasingly hard for you to ensure you have good enough players for harder bosses. And some bosses in raids just need people that play on a certain level. Most of the people do not get to this level on non-meta builds. And as a community guild you have to focus on the masses and not a select few individuals.

Another point is that a raid training guild is not just there to get you into raids but also to provide you with the opportunity to improve over time. If custom builds were accepted that would be extremely hard to accomplish and when we get to a certain point you will end up with the fact that meta builds just outperform non-meta builds. 

Lastly, I just wanted to remind everyone here that all those toxic raiding elitists that are in those raid training guilds are doing all of these things voluntarily in their free time to help people get into raids and improve. They spend hours and hours every week organising trainings, preparing materials (FAQs, introductions to classes etc.), commanding trainings, reviewing tier applications, answering questions and so on. I do not believe it is too much to ask from someone that wants to profit from those offerings to spend some time to prepare accordingly. Having a meta build with somewhat acceptable gear (that can be exotic without any infusions) is realy not that hard and even spending 30 minutes on a golem to have a first grip of the rotation is not much if you ask me. If you don't wanna do that try to get into one of those massive guilds out there that offer some raid introductions. They usually ask for even less.

(Disclaimer: I am no longer in any capacity doing anything at any training guild. I am now a grumpy retired raider that plays a bit of casual WvW here and there but apart from that quit the game)

If I already do the damage that you say you expect, you don't need to check my build. I can post a "90% of benchmark" log/screenshot and that should be enough to know that the build isn't some open world joke with soldier gear. That alone will sort out everyone who doesn't have a working build. So that stuff about having someone test the builds is absolutely unnecessary. If they are unhappy with their dps, they will more than likely already know what they have to fix, and if not, you're dealing with individual people, not "the masses".

 

This isn't about asking what builds to play, it's about people who know what they want to play, and can meet the performance metrics that are expected, but are denied access because their builds aren't listed on some arbitrary website.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Sindust.7059

[Fangoth.4503]

On 3/27/2022 at 7:29 PM, Sarius.9285 said:

seriously how would that work? 

 

There are so many different things you need to consider for a working composition that an automatic system would never work.

it can be done if they do like wow, 1 spec do 1 thing only
then its easy well assuming everyone run adapted gear 🙈
so basically ruin the game diversity to get match making 🤢

 

 

[Fangoth.4503]

On 3/27/2022 at 10:03 PM, Caliboom.3218 said:

Maybe I would do raids if people didn't ask for 250 LI, expect you to do 40k DPS and know your rotation precisely, and didn't start crying after a singular wipe.

I mean if you try to get in group that ask that much dps, their goal is to sell raid so either you do insane dps or you give mystic coins.

Normal pug group though 20k is more than fine but yeah if they goal is to kill they refuse beginner so ask for LI

In discord training mostly they ask the players to run exotic gear with adapted stats and they run for 1/2 hour without people leaving 🤷‍♂️

In pug training they mostly ask whatever as long as you don't have more toughness than the tank but i don't recommend starting from there unless you have a huge amount of time dedicated to raiding and cannot fill it all with discord training guilds

Edited March 28, 2022 by Fangoth.4503

[Hesione.9412]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. That was the point. The raid training is for people that are perfectly capable of learning raids on their own. Those trainings make it easier and faster for them, but do not remove any roadblocks, because those never existed for people trainings are for.

If you have forgotten, that was the original point:

And the post i responded to basically agreed with this. So did you.

Adding: and here is the Snowcrows 10/20/30 step initial rotation you have to use plus the 5/10/15/20 repeat rotation to use. It's both a memory and a positioning combination that needs to be used.

Bringing in high ping again, because that's relevant to me - even if I could memorise 30 rotations, I can't get the number of skills off required in a particular window (e.g. swapping elements) because my ping doesn't let the server recognise the relative timing.  Say I have to get 4 skills off before doing a F-whatever change. I am lucky if I can get 3. You would think that the ping means I can get off all 4, because the F-swap has the same ping as the 4 skills. I can tell people, in practice it doesn't work that way. I have tried this on the practice golem and repeatedly failed. If it fails on the golem, it fails anywhere else.

Raid training doesn't remove the ping problem. And requiring Snowcrows rotations is never going to be achieved by a bunch of the player base - not because there is something inadequate about them, but because their ping prevents them from ever doing so.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Hesione.9412
Weird paragraph formatting after saving.

[Sobx.1758]

11 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

Adding: and here is the Snowcrows 10/20/30 step initial rotation you have to use plus the 5/10/15/20 repeat rotation to use. It's both a memory and a positioning combination that needs to be used.

Bringing in high ping again, because that's relevant to me - even if I could memorise 30 rotations, I can't get the number of skills off required in a particular window (e.g. swapping elements) because my ping doesn't let the server recognise the relative timing.  Say I have to get 4 skills off before doing a F-whatever change. I am lucky if I can get 3. You would think that the ping means I can get off all 4, because the F-swap has the same ping as the 4 skills. I can tell people, in practice it doesn't work that way. I have tried this on the practice golem and repeatedly failed. If it fails on the golem, it fails anywhere else.

Raid training doesn't remove the ping problem. And requiring Snowcrows rotations is never going to be achieved by a bunch of the player base - not because there is something inadequate about them, but because their ping prevents them from ever doing so.

I don't know what I'm missing here, but what you keep repeating, to me seems to be "the game/mode is bad, because it's harder to play it with faulty hardware". Yes, playing a game that's an action mmorpg will very obviously be harder on a faulty/outdated hardware.

Lets just repeat again (since what you said was also already in this thread and it was responded to, by mutliple users): (almost??) nobody will ever require you to have some perfect rotation and dps. Nobody checks that.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Hesione.9412]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I don't know what I'm missing here, but what you keep repeating, to me seems to be "the game/mode is bad, because it's harder to play it with faulty hardware". Yes, playing a game that's an action mmorpg will very obviously be harder on a faulty/outdated hardware.

Lets just repeat again (since what you said was also already in this thread and it was responded to, by mutliple users): (almost??) nobody will ever require you to have some perfect rotation. Absolutely nobody checks that.

I thought the definition of ping was the one-way time, but it's round-trip, so I have mistakenly doubled the time 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ping_(networking_utility)

 

But higher ping is a recognised problem in gaming:

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

16 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

I thought the definition of ping was the one-way time, but it's round-trip, so I have mistakenly doubled the time 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ping_(networking_utility)

 

But higher ping is a recognised problem in gaming:

 

 

I'm not trying to somehow deny high ping is a recognized problem in online games. I'm saying it's not the game's problem (unless it's directly related to the game's servers, which as far as I understand is not the case here), but your hardware/provider problem. "game/mode bad because my hardware bad" doesn't exactly seem to be relevant to anything here?

And you're still not required to follow/perfectly execute those rotations to raid.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Hesione.9412]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I'm not trying to deny high ping somehow isn't a recognized problem in online gaming. I'm saying it's not the game's problem (unless it's directly related to the game's servers, which as far as I understand is not the case here), but your hardware problem. "game/mode bad because my hardware bad" doesn't exactly seem to be relevant to anything here?

It isn't my hardware. It's the route from Anet's servers to my PC, and back, that causes ping. Whether I have the latest $10,000 top spec gaming computer, or a $200 second-hand potato, doesn't affect ping. 

 

The OP is about trying to get new people into raids, via training. The points I have been making is that training doesn't help when high ping is causing a lot of the problems. If you can't get rotations off because of ping problems, no amount of training is going to make you suddenly able to do Snowcrows rotations.

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

It isn't my hardware. It's the route from Anet's servers to my PC, and back, that causes ping. Whether I have the latest $10,000 top spec gaming computer, or a $200 second-hand potato, doesn't affect ping. 

 

The OP is about trying to get new people into raids, via training. The points I have been making is that training doesn't help when high ping is causing a lot of the problems. If you can't get rotations off because of ping problems, no amount of training is going to make you suddenly able to do Snowcrows rotations.

OP doesn't somehow try to suggest everyone should raid no matter what. He targeted specific case of people believing misguiding comments and "urban legends" that are spead -for example on this forum- mainly by people not participating in said content at all. Nobody tries to tell you "hey, if you have awful, unplayable ping, still play it!". As a reminder, this is what OP said:

On 3/27/2022 at 5:25 PM, jcH.7109 said:

I've seen too many people here who think raids are full of unfriendly and rude elitists who think they're part of an exclusive circle. This view is NOT aligned with reality. There are good communities who are more than willing to accept new people and form Raid Training groups to teach them.

Not sure why there needs to be a spin put on his words, similarly to the post trying to claim that "raiders think that if someone doesn't raid, it's because they're scared". Clearly none of that is what OP wrote in his post. You are free to have your reasons about not participating in any content the game provides, but if what OP says doesn't apply to you (and apparently it doesn't, since you keep talking about ping), then his post doesn't seem to be targeted at you at all.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Hesione.9412]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

OP doesn't somehow try to suggest everyone should raid no matter what. He targeted specific case of people believing misguiding comments and "urban legends" that are spead -for example on this forum- mainly by people not participating in said content at all. Nobody tries to tell you "hey, if you have awful, unplayable ping, still play it!". As a reminder, this is what OP said:

Not sure why there needs to be a spin put on his words, similarly to the post trying to claim that "raiders think that if someone doesn't raid, it's because they're scared". Clearly none of that is what OP wrote in his post.

Fine, selectively quote the OP to make it seem like I'm not arguing in good faith. You do you.

[Sobx.1758]

11 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

Fine, selectively quote the OP to make it seem like I'm not arguing in good faith. You do you.

It's not "selectively quoting the OP", so it would be nice if you stopped pretending that, just because you missed the "targeted audience" of what he wrote. It is simply the very beginning of his post, the rest of it follows with introducing them to training guilds and informs why he'd like more people to raid:

On 3/27/2022 at 5:25 PM, jcH.7109 said:

For example, Raid Academy is a perfect place to start. Just join the discord, follow the rules, and join a raid training group where you can learn the mechanics and such. https://discord.com/invite/gw2ra

 

I want raids to become popular so that Anet will make more new raids. Cantha raids would be dope.

EDIT:

Raid Academy is for NA.

Raid training community for EU: The Crossroads Inn https://discord.com/invite/nDcv395

This second part of the post, I've quoted now above is still directed at the same people mentioned in the initial quote of his message. What I quoted previously was just the relevant part that described who he's talking to/about, which is why I've quoted that and not the rest. The rest of his post doesn't change anything about who he's talking about.

Don't try to pretend I'm trying to misrepresent what OP wrote, since -as quoted and explained above- that's false.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Sobx.1758